Really dumb question about Breaking Away

[christian]

In a memorable scene in Breaking Away, a member of the Squadra Azzuri sticks a pump in Dave's front wheel.

Did the UCI ever allow you to race with a pump? Do they now? Underseat bags generally get pulled at local races by the referee, I think under USA Cycling 1I2(a), but I've never actually checked the rules. I would suspect pumps fall under the same rule.

But then, at least in the 40 and 50s they raced with gonfleurs, yes?

So, what's the 1979 reality? I know a couple of you were racing then.

[EricEstlund]

I'm going to date myself here- sorry.

My dad was racing in the ealy 80's and was spoked in a similar way during a competitive training ride. He was a strong rider, but not affiliated with a team.

He also had his derailleurs kicked out during a climb and had to ride the course manually shifting between his inner and outer front chain rings.

Amateur racing in 83' NH was the wild west, I guess.

[Saxon]

I'm going to date myself here- sorry.

My dad was racing in the ealy 80's and was spoked in a similar way during a competitive training ride. He was a strong rider, but not affiliated with a team.

He also had his derailleurs kicked out during a climb and had to ride the course manually shifting between his inner and outer front chain rings.

Amateur racing in 83' NH was the wild west, I guess.

Holy cow! I guess the movie makers did their research!

[christian]

My dad was racing in the ealy 80's and was spoked in a similar way during a competitive training ride. He was a strong rider, but not affiliated with a team. Ah, but a group ride is different; of course someone might have a pump on a group ride. That said, "Jesus, that's unbelievable!" One hopes it was the rear wheel, at least.

[EricEstlund]

One hopes it was the rear wheel, at least.

Nope.

[bart998]

In a crit in the '80s a rider pushed his way up between me and the curb by pushing on my hip, sliding me a few inches sideways... my response was to shoulder him into the curb when he got along side (not enough to send him over it.. just a reminder)... got yelled at by a course marshall but that was it. It happens.

btw/ I did carry a pump and spare in road races where I might flat away from any help. Team cars were rare in local races...

[oldpotatoe]

In a memorable scene in Breaking Away, a member of the Squadra Azzuri sticks a pump in Dave's front wheel.

Did the UCI ever allow you to race with a pump? Do they now? Underseat bags generally get pulled at local races by the referee, I think under USA Cycling 1I2(a), but I've never actually checked the rules. I would suspect pumps fall under the same rule.

But then, at least in the 40 and 50s they raced with gonfleurs, yes?

So, what's the 1979 reality? I know a couple of you were racing then.

If you can, slow that scene down, frame by frame and tell me what you see.

[Climb01742]

If you can, slow that scene down, frame by frame and tell me what you see.

Where Jimmy Hoffa is buried?

[dvs cycles]

If you can, slow that scene down, frame by frame and tell me what you see.
Could not find a video clear enough but I' thinking you are refering to one of these bloopers?
http://www.moviemistakes.com/member20062/title210

[christian]

Ok, let me rephrase the question. :)

In UCI races in 1979, was it legal to ride with a pump?

[ultraman6970]

Back in the day the guys raced with a pump because they carried the tubulars around too, the problem was support for the race so they had to carry the stuff with them.

By 1979 I really dont remember anybody riding in races with pumps unless they did not have a car where to leave their stuff, they did not have any support either, in professionals dont remember anybody riding with a pump by 1980 ever. In local non professional leagues always saw kids with the pump and even with the tubular under the saddle because (as i said before) they did not have even support for their team and they arrived to the race already dressed and riding from their homes.

As for the movie? well never seen such a thing ever, IMO that was just to add drama to the darn movie and make it appeal to the public that did not know crap about cycling. One thing is certain tho... saw water bottles accidentally thrown in front wheels thousand of times. Even Lemond when LVC team split between the americans and the french many told lemond to be careful of accidents with water bottles.

No idea if there is a rule ruling out pumps, never asked till now that you come with the question.

[pbarry]

In a crit in the '80s a rider pushed his way up between me and the curb by pushing on my hip, sliding me a few inches sideways... my response was to shoulder him into the curb when he got along side (not enough to send him over it.. just a reminder)... got yelled at by a course marshall but that was it. It happens.

btw/ I did carry a pump and spare in road races where I might flat away from any help. Team cars were rare in local races...

Nice move, got your point across and no one got hurt.

Self-supported road races were not uncommon back in the day.

Those who've never used a Silca frame pump: If you don't hold on tight enough during the upstroke when there's back pressure, the handle/stem/gasket assembly will fly off like an Estes rocket. If you hit a dog with one, they will shatter, or, if you were only holding the handle, the handle/stem/gasket assembly would rip free from the body, and you were left with half a pump and a pissed off canine. Most that were used at all were taped around the threads at the top of the body, (after one of the above mentioned mis-adventures), to get some more mileage out of them before replacement. Not a lethal weapon or a decent piece of gear, but it's all we had. :eek:

[Tim Porter]

Christian: I'm of exactly that vintage and I even graduated from IU--Dave in the movie rode the same bike I rode then (California Masi Gran Criterium). Many of the guys I rode against acted as extras, and a guy I knew pretty well did the semi-truck motor pacing scene.

To answer the question, IIRC, in crits you never would have even considered a pump or spare, of course. Maybe a friend would walk the course with a spare set of wheels if you were that well organized. No free laps for a mechanical.

In a road race, what used to happen in the midwest was there was a car that followed the peloton and IF you had a set of spare wheels, you would put them in the car and wait for them to show up if you punctured (and also hope someone hadn't grabbed your wheel). Sometimes the spare set of wheels was fair game for anyone on your team. I don't recall anyone carrying pumps and spares, but it's been a long time. HTH, Tim

[oldpotatoe]

Could not find a video clear enough but I' thinking you are refering to one of these bloopers?
http://www.moviemistakes.com/member20062/title210

"Dave is racing with the Italians, and the Italian puts his pump in Dave's spokes. In the middle of the bike falling over, you see a horizontal beige object with duct tape on it for a couple of frames, where you should see Dave."

Bike is held up then falls over, supported by a piece of wood...

[Tandem Rider]

Christian: I'm of exactly that vintage and I even graduated from IU--Dave in the movie rode the same bike I rode then (California Masi Gran Criterium). Many of the guys I rode against acted as extras, and a guy I knew pretty well did the semi-truck motor pacing scene.

To answer the question, IIRC, in crits you never would have even considered a pump or spare, of course. Maybe a friend would walk the course with a spare set of wheels if you were that well organized. No free laps for a mechanical.

In a road race, what used to happen in the midwest was there was a car that followed the peloton and IF you had a set of spare wheels, you would put them in the car and wait for them to show up if you punctured (and also hope someone hadn't grabbed your wheel). Sometimes the spare set of wheels was fair game for anyone on your team. I don't recall anyone carrying pumps and spares, but it's been a long time. HTH, Tim

This is how I remember it as well, I did carry a pump and spare tubular in RR's without a wheel truck though. To my knowledge there wasn't a rule against it, some considered it "uncool" though. I thought it less cool to walk a few miles in leather soles with slotted cleats nailed to the bottom.

BID tires were all gumwall so we all wrote our team and or name on it with a marker for identification, which didn't always work. If you are the guy who took my spares out of the wheel truck in Illinois back in '85 or '86, Campy hubs, Mavic rims, at least buy me a beer sometime. I'm not mad anymore :^).

[djg]

First race was in the spring of '81 and I . . . er, cannot remember what the rule was. I know that I owned one of those silca frame pumps and I do recall that we had to wear helmets to race (we would train without, and then strap on a worthless set of leather straps with some cork sewn up inside -- I felt special when I got the Cinelli version of this ineffectual safety talisman -- but I don't recall whether I raced with a pump or not. Might be able to track down a picture. I don't think I have any myself, but the College team has a web site with some historical material.

[Tony T]

As for the movie? well never seen such a thing ever, IMO that was just to add drama to the darn movie and make it appeal to the public that did not know crap about cycling.

Add drama, yes, but Dave was letdown by his heroes, (who he idolized).

[djg21]

Nice move, got your point across and no one got hurt.

Self-supported road races were not uncommon back in the day.

Those who've never used a Silca frame pump: If you don't hold on tight enough during the upstroke when there's back pressure, the handle/stem/gasket assembly will fly off like an Estes rocket. If you hit a dog with one, they will shatter, or, if you were only holding the handle, the handle/stem/gasket assembly would rip free from the body, and you were left with half a pump and a pissed off canine. Most that were used at all were taped around the threads at the top of the body, (after one of the above mentioned mis-adventures), to get some more mileage out of them before replacement. Not a lethal weapon or a decent piece of gear, but it's all we had. :eek:

But with an old Campy head, they would shatter a windshield with ease.

[Repack Rider]

I met Dennis Christopher a few years ago when Gary Fisher and I had dinner with him at a sports award ceremony. Got the autographed photo from Breaking Away around here somewhere.

Like many films, an essential plot point is unfortunately virtually impossible. Of course no one carried pumps in the '70s. Even then there were follow vehicles, and an Italian team would have one even if the local rider didn't.

Second, has anyone here ever participated in or seen a bike race where the officials did not stay with the leaders?

Third, four riders on one team against one? Any team worth its jerseys would treat it as an exercise in team tactics and use the opportunity to destroy him by the book.

The plot required a villain, so the Italian riders had to do something evil. In real life they would not have bothered.

When I had the opportunity to ask Dennis, I wanted to know how many takes were required for him to pick up the notebook off the ground. It's not at all easy, but Dennis said that he scooped it up on the first try, which was supposed to be a rehearsal, and the director kept the cameras rolling. One take.

Here I am in 1974.

http://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp271/repackrider/Miscellaneous%20images/74_criterium.jpg

[djg]

Similar gear, but this is a photo from the ‘60s – a race at Dartmouth with John Allis (Princeton), Dan Dimancescu (Dartmouth), Warren Markey (University of Connecticut) – definitely a road race (or what was then called a circuit race) and I don’t see any frame pumps.

https://b851371e-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dartmouthcycling/nobanner/history/dimancescu4.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cqAx2Gh1nzX-y6_Mw9YMbP18UuDp3cQVpeJEbuEJ9ODcyrnCQIqCCw_Ch422An Vai3983onWQ-JlkDosUZ21fSc9eGKadjugmXbnZGxZx3TXcgZIOT2xV_pXnx8E KseqvyC_d9GLNrQGc5oRekKRyXcRDhg6-Kug7PRW-zXrdC71QGL336XZfia2ykG07Rakl3XRmRrjOJSqkw4urQ6xkng 4na9i7sKU1py1cyOou8v1F5ZpUZ14oso7nDFwvVTXxroQiXr&attredirects=0

https://b851371e-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dartmouthcycling/nobanner/history/dimancescu8.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crZ8mTuCamBMAEZ0pA SCEi0-huNKOhVewM6WVtn9n6AItuk-xB8tS0Uz5_3VQ_oGGiZH665CB5wfHQYAmHDYLGX90oVjQgvS9U qAnRrAaz3hpVteBbjTA6kIgYD8Xtbtxxr7PwmWkh_dpLxXGQAm scr4CzODoyTNEEwNqL2VwjufGnq4Q9thmIvbAu3rqE10tSuI6m jHTLcVRXSsSAIbdW4uNse6o1VpINDOd-HeiaZEAjQ857mv0quXjL5Q9DL8G2GQHfR&attredirects=0

[EchelonLeft]

In the 80s we used to road race with pumps. If you were lucky, your race would have one support vehicle. Not all of us had extra wheels to put inside, though.

How times have changed...

[pbarry]

Similar gear, but this is a photo from the ‘60s – a race at Dartmouth with John Allis (Princeton), Dan Dimancescu (Dartmouth), Warren Markey (University of Connecticut) – definitely a road race (or what was then called a circuit race) and I don’t see any frame pumps.

https://b851371e-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dartmouthcycling/nobanner/history/dimancescu4.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7cqAx2Gh1nzX-y6_Mw9YMbP18UuDp3cQVpeJEbuEJ9ODcyrnCQIqCCw_Ch422An Vai3983onWQ-JlkDosUZ21fSc9eGKadjugmXbnZGxZx3TXcgZIOT2xV_pXnx8E KseqvyC_d9GLNrQGc5oRekKRyXcRDhg6-Kug7PRW-zXrdC71QGL336XZfia2ykG07Rakl3XRmRrjOJSqkw4urQ6xkng 4na9i7sKU1py1cyOou8v1F5ZpUZ14oso7nDFwvVTXxroQiXr&attredirects=0

https://b851371e-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/dartmouthcycling/nobanner/history/dimancescu8.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crZ8mTuCamBMAEZ0pA SCEi0-huNKOhVewM6WVtn9n6AItuk-xB8tS0Uz5_3VQ_oGGiZH665CB5wfHQYAmHDYLGX90oVjQgvS9U qAnRrAaz3hpVteBbjTA6kIgYD8Xtbtxxr7PwmWkh_dpLxXGQAm scr4CzODoyTNEEwNqL2VwjufGnq4Q9thmIvbAu3rqE10tSuI6m jHTLcVRXSsSAIbdW4uNse6o1VpINDOd-HeiaZEAjQ857mv0quXjL5Q9DL8G2GQHfR&attredirects=0

The guy in the middle has a Silca mounted to the seat tube...

[Gummee]

I know by the time I started racing in the mid-to-late 80s, you weren't allowed to have anything on your bike.

I always figured that the 'pump in the spokes' thing couldn't have happened cause the rules had been the same for a long time before I happened along.

It wouldn't have taken much to ride Dave off the wheels without resorting to trickery, but Dave had to 'fall out of love' with the Italians somehow and that was quicker than watching em work him over.

M

[fourflys]

OK, so stupid question...

in an amateur road race today, what do you do if you're unsupported and racing? Is there a neutral car that follows and if you have a flat you just have to wait for a while? I can understand a crit wouldn't be an issue as there is the wheel pit, but on a point to point race what happens currently?

[VA-Scooter]

USA Cycling - Category A & B Road Races - Provide at least 2 neutral support vehicles, at the service of all riders. One for the break away riders & one for the field. This is in addition to the allowed team cars. They are "encouraged" to provide support for races below the A & B level. I have not been to a road race without neutral support. Not sure what it takes to be Category A, B or C road race.

[e-RICHIE]

OK, so stupid question...

in an amateur road race today, what do you do if you're unsupported and racing? Is there a neutral car that follows and if you have a flat you just have to wait for a while? I can understand a crit wouldn't be an issue as there is the wheel pit, but on a point to point race what happens currently?
You carry a pump and spare atmo. It's not illegal (against the rules) in normal, non-UCI, lower category events.
I don't even think it's illegal in Cat 1-2 type races. It may be dorky, or provincial, but it beats hailing a taxi.

[fourflys]

It may be dorky, or provincial, but it beats hailing a taxi.

that was my thoughts...

[Tandem Rider]

I know it's not illegal in USAC races. You could put any combination of pump, seat bag, stack of waterbottles, dozen spare tires on you want as long as it's not an aerodynamic fairing.


I don't know about UCI events, but then again, they always had cars and I haven't done one in years so it hasn't mattered.

[Hawker]

Hey it was a movie (and a darn good one) and they took liberties...creative license and I am glad they did. Now if you want to argue about something that is unrealistic...how about the small chain ring ride behind the semi?

It's about time for my annual viewing, I own the DVD. And this may be the year I drive out to Indiana and do the Breaking Away Ride with the Bloomington Bicycle Club. :) You ride by many of the movie landmarks and while officially they can't let you go down to the quarry, you do ride by it. I understand that some rapscallions have taken it upon themselves to make a brief side trip.

[Frankwurst]

Ok, let me rephrase the question. :)

In UCI races in 1979, was it legal to ride with a pump?

Mid to late 70's yes. It wasn't uncommon in places where racing was just catching on to carry a pump in a road race because as others have stated there wasn't much in the way of support.:beer:

[christian]

Thanks guys. Much appreciated! Learned a few things today.

[paredown]

...If you are the guy who took my spares out of the wheel truck in Illinois back in '85 or '86, Campy hubs, Mavic rims, at least buy me a beer sometime. I'm not mad anymore :^).

Same to who we got back into the Cat1 race with our Campy Nouvo Tipo wheel at Volunteer Park in Seattle, circa 1974...

I do remember carrying a tub and frame pump on long road races--never in crits. In BC, the road races were long and typically on open highways, and there were very few support vehicles...

[djg]

The guy in the middle has a Silca mounted to the seat tube...

Ack, you're right.