Replacement of Serotta ST Bearings

[George Ab]

This post may be useful if you ever need to service the ST bearings on your Ottrott or Legend.

There are a couple of reference posts concerning on paceline:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=136131
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=90987 http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=110305

This is my DIY ST bearing replacement and I assume no liability for its use.

To determine if bearing needs to be replaced. "If you can hold your dropout in a fixed location but move the seatstay boss outward from the dropout, then you have non-adjustable bearing play and they should be replaced." In my case there was no bearing play, but with unknown service history it was prudent to reset the maintenance.

Parts Used:

2 X Bearing P/N SMR686C2OS7NB2 (see notes)

2X Wave Washers P/N W0492-007-S (see notes)

Remove ST Bolt. I removed the ST nut with a 8mm 12 point socket and 3 mm Allen wrench. The walls of the socket have to be fairly thin as the nut is slightly recessed into the chain stay. Most sockets are 8 point, but my local auto parts store had a 12 point.

[/URL]
(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B1LCJwkIxvAkdkJtQlNrR1haRjA[/IMG)

Remove Old Bearing. The bearing has to be pressed or driven out (not in) as there is a recess in the seat stay that will not allow bearing to be pressed in. You can drive out the bearing with a punch. However, I made a fixture to assure force necessary to drive out bearing is only applied to outside edge of bearing. The fixture is a M8 bolt with a M8 nut on the inside and the outside of bearing for support. The bolt has to be fished between the chain stay and seat stay, so you will have to gently move the stays to make room for the nut, then screw in bolt until it comes out the outside of bearing and secure with a nut. Support the chain stay on a surface that will not mar or damage the stay. Now you are ready to drive out the bearing. I used a punch to get to the head of the bolt as there is not much clearance due to the opposite chain stay. A couple firm hammer taps on head of bolt to drive bearing out of chain stay and bearing came out.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/tapout.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/tapout.jpg.html)

Install New Bearing. After cleaning the area where the old bearing was, I put a dash of wheel bearing grease on outside of bearing and mating surface to assist re-insertion. I pressed in bearing using the same 8mm bolt, nut and old bearing so pressure is on outside edge of bearing vice bearing race. Tightening the bolt to press bearing into the seat stay until it meets recess. It goes in easily; stop when you feel resistance.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/pressin.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/pressin.jpg.html)

Reinstall ST Bolt. Place wave washer between seat and chain stays, reinsert the bolt and nut. Use a drop of medium strength thread lock on the bolt threads and tightened nut to 60 in-lbs.

Notes:
The bearing originally used is Boca Bearing part number SMR686C-YZZ #5 NB2. It is a 6x13x5 mm, stainless steel ceramic hybrid radial bearing with stainless seals. I used a similar spec bearing, stainless steel with ceramic bearings with same load characteristics and same internal lube. However, I opted for a rubber seal vice stainless seal part number SMR686C2OS7NB2. Per bearing manufacture the rubber sealed bearing has better sealing characteristics for dirty environments; requiring no maintenance and lube is good for life of bearing. Bearings were $16 each. This would also work fine SMR686C-2YS: [url]https://www.amazon.com/Pack-SMR686C-2YS-Ceramic-Ball-Bearing/dp/B00GGQ20ZK/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=SMR686C&qid=1578518113&s=industrial&sr=1-2

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/bearings.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/bearings.jpg.html)

The wave washer measures 12.5mm OD, 8.9 ID, and .18mm thick. Opted for a stainless steel variant with 4 pounds of deflection which is standard for loading a bearing of this size. Part number is W0492-007-S. Purchased from zorotools for about $1 each with minimum order of packet of 25. Other manufactures and part numbers are springmaster part number W61360 (non stainless), W61370R (stainless), Seastrom part number 5805-23 for $3.15 each.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/wavewash.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/wavewash.jpg.html)

The very bike that was part of the 2003 Masters Cycling Team and graces the last page of the 2004 catalog is good as new. Love my Serotta!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18UbxBhdVH2QOiLdyAtBlnrqPSCH9w0jx

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/wayne.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/wayne.jpg.html)

[pbarry]

Awesome thread! This shold be a sticky! :banana:

[Gat64]

Spectacular! Thanks for taking the time to post your procedure. Safely locked in my bookmark vault....

[mnoble485]

Could be best first post ever!

Mike

[Dromen]

As an Ottrott owner, this is very sooooothing.

[Peter P.]

That was a great story-Thanks for spreading the tips!

[George Ab]

Thanks for the input. I have garnered much information from Paceline. So when I started the research and replacement of the bearing I thought it would be a way of giving back to the forum.

[Dale Alan]

Excellent info and pics,thanks for posting.

[Ahneida Ride]

I believe that the original bearing were not stainless.
There in originates a lot of the problems.

S should have sourced a better bearing.

[Ahneida Ride]

and great post !!!!!! thanks a million ... :banana:

[Brian Smith]

I believe that the original bearing were not stainless.
There in originates a lot of the problems.

S should have sourced a better bearing.

The original bearings were, in fact, with stainless races, or what is nominally termed "stainless" by sellers.
An assortment of varying bearing suppliers were used at various points, and bearings of greater expense were, in fact, sourced. The selection of bearing suppliers was not informed by the directive of "whichever is the best on earth, beyond the point of discernible improvement." It's a "wear" part.

I participated in sourcing some at one point, and my efforts in that regard were small compared to those of others. I think that often people speak about "S" with excess authority.

[Brian Smith]

This post may be useful if you ever need to service the ST bearings on your Ottrott or Legend.


Remove Old Bearing. The bearing has to be pressed or driven out (not in) as there is a recess in the seat stay that will not allow bearing to be pressed in. You can drive out the bearing with a punch. However, I made a fixture to assure force necessary to drive out bearing is only applied to outside edge of bearing. The fixture is a M8 bolt with a M8 nut on the inside and the outside of bearing for support. The bolt has to be fished between the chain stay and seat stay, so you will have to gently move the stays to make room for the nut, then screw in bolt until it comes out the outside of bearing and secure with a nut. Support the chain stay on a surface that will not mar or damage the stay. Now you are ready to drive out the bearing. I used a punch to get to the head of the bolt as there is not much clearance due to the opposite chain stay. A couple firm hammer taps on head of bolt to drive bearing out of chain stay and bearing came out.

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac175/justbehu/serotta/tapout.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/justbehu/media/serotta/tapout.jpg.html)



This is useful stuff posted above.
One should use a bit of caution here: there is no mention of any manner employed to limit the outward deflection of the seat stay during said hammer taps. The carbon stay could easily suffer damage, particularly in cases wherein the outer bearing race is firmly attached to the seat stay boss. A removable locktite product was used in later years, and in many examples we received back for refinish at the factory left out in the elements there was corrosion affixing the bearing race to the stay. This procedure would likely not produce the desired result, and the bearing may leave its outer race in the seat stay in its removal. The 8mm nut is an inexpensive item that could be worthy of essay, but I wouldn't consider it to be foolproof. The photo shows how unlikely the nut is to contact the outer race of the bearing. It will, however, clear the .41" inner lip of the seat stay boss to gain purchase on other parts of the bearing.

Lastly, it isn't M8 for the bolt size, despite the 8mm nut. The standards don't quite work that way. M5 would be a better word choice.

[dekindy]

Since the bearing is designed for up and down movement the check is for side to side play?

My LBS was kind of nonchalant regarding in that it will be very obvious when it needs attention? Unless you ride in the wet a lot it is unlikely to need changing?

Won't it make noise or handling feel differently when it needs replacing or is it such that if you don't catch it in time can cause major damage?

[pbarry]

The original bearings were, in fact, with stainless races, or what is nominally termed "stainless" by sellers.
An assortment of varying bearing suppliers were used at various points, and bearings of greater expense were, in fact, sourced. The selection of bearing suppliers was not informed by the directive of "whichever is the best on earth, beyond the point of discernible improvement." It's a "wear" part.

I participated in sourcing some at one point, and my efforts in that regard were small compared to those of others. I think that often people speak about "S" with excess authority.

Thanks, Brian. :beer:

[Highpowernut]

Ok, so after reading this. I have a couple questions.
Idk if my frame has st bearings or not. (Hsg aero)

Does anyone have a tool or photos? I might be willing to make a copy.

Here is a photo of my frame, is there a bearing or just a bolt???
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/vy3u9ume.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/e5ebatyv.jpg

Thanks
Wayne


Some people wonder if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan

[lonoeightysix]

This is useful stuff posted above.
One should use a bit of caution here: there is no mention of any manner employed to limit the outward deflection of the seat stay during said hammer taps. The carbon stay could easily suffer damage, particularly in cases wherein the outer bearing race is firmly attached to the seat stay boss.

wonder if a plastic faced bar clamp could be applied across the CS and SS, a few inches away from the bearing.

[George Ab]

This is useful stuff posted above.
One should use a bit of caution here: there is no mention of any manner employed to limit the outward deflection of the seat stay during said hammer taps. The carbon stay could easily suffer damage, particularly in cases wherein the outer bearing race is firmly attached to the seat stay boss. A removable locktite product was used in later years, and in many examples we received back for refinish at the factory left out in the elements there was corrosion affixing the bearing race to the stay. This procedure would likely not produce the desired result, and the bearing may leave its outer race in the seat stay in its removal. The 8mm nut is an inexpensive item that could be worthy of essay, but I wouldn't consider it to be foolproof. The photo shows how unlikely the nut is to contact the outer race of the bearing. It will, however, clear the .41" inner lip of the seat stay boss to gain purchase on other parts of the bearing.

Lastly, it isn't M8 for the bolt size, despite the 8mm nut. The standards don't quite work that way. M5 would be a better word choice.

Thanks Brian, good input. Yes, it is a M5 bolt, my bad. I controlled deflection by resting stay on my thigh. In my case, it did not take much to remove bearing.

[pbarry]

Ok, so after reading this. I have a couple questions.
Idk if my frame has st bearings or not. (Hsg aero)

Does anyone have a tool or photos? I might be willing to make a copy.

Here is a photo of my frame, is there a bearing or just a bolt???

Thanks
Wayne

That's a cool frame. 99.5% certain you also have a bearing at the DO, [unless Brian says otherwise].

[happycampyer]

That's a cool frame. 99.5% certain you also have a bearing at the DO, [unless Brian says otherwise].I was going to say the opposite—that looks like the fixed bolt that Serotta used on MeiVicis, etc. Iirc, the ST bearings were only used on SE-level Legends and Ottrotts (part of what differentiated those models from SG versions, Fiertes, Noves, etc.).

Since Highpowernut's chainstays are carbon, I'm pretty sure it's a fixed bolt. I've heard that, in the development of the MeiVici, the folks in Saratoga switched bearings in and out of the prototypes, and the conclusion was that for some reason the bearings did not have the same effect with the carbon chainstays as they did with the ti ones. The carbon bikes rode better without the bearings, so the production models did not have them. Perhaps Brian will be kind enough to chime in.

[SPOKE]

Ok, so after reading this. I have a couple questions.
Idk if my frame has st bearings or not. (Hsg aero)

Does anyone have a tool or photos? I might be willing to make a copy.

Here is a photo of my frame, is there a bearing or just a bolt???
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/vy3u9ume.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/08/e5ebatyv.jpg

Thanks
Wayne


Some people wonder if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan

You do not have ST bearings in the HSG frame.

[happycampyer]

P.S. Found this in the archives:

Calling the guys at Serotta: why doesn't the MeiVici have the ST bearing? (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=20837)

P.P.S. George, that's a great tip—it's nice to know that the bearings can be serviced without the special bearing tool. Living so close to Signature Cycles, I'm lucky not to need the DIY solution.

P.P.P.S. For those who have never seen the bearing tool, as tools go, it really is something to behold. Like so (too?) many things Serotta, no expense was spared.

[Brian Smith]

That's a cool frame. 99.5% certain you also have a bearing at the DO, [unless Brian says otherwise].

Sorry, Happycampyer's take is correct...that's the bolted connection.
Those were proprietary made-in-house aluminum bolts, but they shouldn't ever need replacement under normal conditions.
The thread is M10x1, in case a non-factory replacement is ever needed.

[Highpowernut]

Sorry, Happycampyer's take is correct...that's the bolted connection.

Those were proprietary made-in-house aluminum bolts, but they shouldn't ever need replacement under normal conditions.

The thread is M10x1, in case a non-factory replacement is ever needed.


Thanks for the info, just wanted to be prepared in case.

Rides so nice, I am looking for a road bike just like it.
Now If I could find a 53 meivici set up for electric I'd be in heaven.
Heaven also would prob equal devorce



Some people wonder if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan

[rhino]

This is useful stuff posted above.
One should use a bit of caution here: there is no mention of any manner employed to limit the outward deflection of the seat stay during said hammer taps. The carbon stay could easily suffer damage, particularly in cases wherein the outer bearing race is firmly attached to the seat stay boss. A removable locktite product was used in later years, and in many examples we received back for refinish at the factory left out in the elements there was corrosion affixing the bearing race to the stay. This procedure would likely not produce the desired result, and the bearing may leave its outer race in the seat stay in its removal. The 8mm nut is an inexpensive item that could be worthy of essay, but I wouldn't consider it to be foolproof. The photo shows how unlikely the nut is to contact the outer race of the bearing. It will, however, clear the .41" inner lip of the seat stay boss to gain purchase on other parts of the bearing.

Seeking some advice for a Pivot bearing outer race solidly remaining in the seat stay.

[rhino]

Any ideas on replacement parts for a Serotta Legend TI ST Pivot bearing axle pictured here??

[Brian Smith]

Seeking some advice for a Pivot bearing outer race solidly remaining in the seat stay.

Well, as far as makeshift presses go, an item such as this (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-300-8370?seid=srese1&gclid=CJ6_gYmo874CFSJo7Aod2FoA_A) might gain better purchase on the frozen outer race. A careful use of an abrasive rotary tool run slowly or an end mill might make it through the race and allow you to crush/remove the remains. A small nick in the inner circumference of the ti stay boss, during rookie hour, won't ruin its function. Take it painfully slowly and be ready to abandon if you aren't confident in the controlled progress of the operation.

[rhino]

Well, as far as makeshift presses go, an item such as this (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-300-8370?seid=srese1&gclid=CJ6_gYmo874CFSJo7Aod2FoA_A) might gain better purchase on the frozen outer race. A careful use of an abrasive rotary tool run slowly or an end mill might make it through the race and allow you to crush/remove the remains. A small nick in the inner circumference of the ti stay boss, during rookie hour, won't ruin its function. Take it painfully slowly and be ready to abandon if you aren't confident in the controlled progress of the operation.

Success. Thanks Brian. Bolt acquired from Mike Grotz of Cyclesport, NJ.

[Brian Smith]

Success. Thanks Brian. Bolt acquired from Mike Grotz of Cyclesport, NJ.

I'm glad to hear that. Mike, among some ex-dealers, would be expected to be able to assist in such matters. That shoulder bolt isn't proprietary, but also is not one you'd encounter at most typically supplied retail hardware stores in the U.S.

[George Ab]

Edited the original post as service for original pictures is not working. Uploaded pictures to The Paceline.

[Plum Hill]

Have you tried soaking the bearing in Liquid Wrench or Kroil Oil?
Mine had a good amount of rust. Liquid Wrench broke it free.

[RedRider]

We have the tool and have been replacing ST bearings with stainless/ceramic.

[Highpowernut]

We have the tool and have been replacing ST bearings with stainless/ceramic.


But does it make it more aero ? ;-) and how many watts are saved?

Sorry couldn't resist, it's the triathlete in me.

[2manybikes]

Old thread but very useful. Had to replace my bearings after noticing side to side play. They were shot and had rusted. Bear to remove. I ended up getting a M6 nut and filed the corners off to use between the chain stay and seat stay then put a washer on the outside of the seat stay. Bolted through the whole thing and put washer and nut on inside of the chain stay. After the bearing moved against the seat stay washer, I was able to gently tap the bearing out after bolting through the other direction (filed nut still in between). Oh yeah, don't forget the liquid wrench.

If this hasn't been done before on your Serotta, better do it before it gets too bad.

[93svt96]

Does anyone have a pic of the Serotta tool ? I have never seen an Ottrott in person but I will be receiving a ST frame later this week for a new build. I plan on replacing the bearing so I was going to copy the Serotta tool or design my own. If successful we could pass around the tool to forum members.

[Dromen]

Finally did this after my O was getting close to its 9 year anniversary. Thanks George for all the guidance and to Velosmith - Wilmette, IL - https://www.velosmith.com/ for the repair. Yes, they have THE TOOL. Brendan said the bearings had ceased, and not uncommon for bearings that have so little movement and the the time involved whether they take on moisture or not. His recommendation was replacing/checking every 2 - 3 years, dependent on ride conditions.

Steve

[Yo-Ottrott]

Thanks Brian, good input. Yes, it is a M5 bolt, my bad. I controlled deflection by resting stay on my thigh. In my case, it did not take much to remove bearing.

Thanks Brian, good input. Yes, it is a M5 bolt, my bad. I controlled deflection by resting stay on my thigh. In my case, it did not take much to remove bearing.

Jeez, I wish I had read and retained this one valuable comment before I had bought a “M8 bolt, nuts and washer” only to realize after removing the 12 point (8 mm-5/8”) Nut and wave washer that a M8 bolt would NOT fit through the bushing? My bad too, since I had already bought and had possession of the proper bushings (only realized after removing the Nut and Bolt though!) thanks to this thread! I might mention I tried to use my 12 point “splined” set of ratchets to remove the 12 point nut, but it was a no-go! I hit each side up with PB Blaster to soak and when I got back from the hardware store with the close to right size (8mm) 12 point ratchet ( I say close to as there definitely is some play and, being that 8mm = 5/8”, and the 7mm didn’t fit, then I venture to guess that 1/4” 12 point may be a tighter fit, and the fact that Serotta was a USA Co., it may just be a 1/4” 12 point, but I couldn’t find one!) and a 3mm hex for the inner side “bolt” it finally did break free! After removing it, I noticed there was some sort of Threadlocker (white?) that I had to clean up using my Tap & Die set, that is after trying my best with a scratch awl/pick. The PB Blaster surely loosened up a bit of rust which was immediately cleaned up using some WD40 and a blue shop towel!

Tomorrow I’m off to the hardware store to swap bolts and hopefully get nuts that are 10.8 mm or so in width, that will fit between the recessed lockout that the bushing sits in. Although it may look like it is installed just until it bumps up against the chainstay it’s not. There’s definitely a difference in width on the outer side of the seatstay (12.8 mm) where the bushing is installed from than the width on the inside of the seatstay (10.8mm or so). That extruded circular edge that emanates from outer side of the chainstay would at first blush seem to fit within the inner edge of the bushing, but when I spread the chainstay from the seatstay with one hand grabbing the chainstay using my thumb to push out the seatstay, and the other hand to place the new bushing in there expecting it to fit easily around that extruded edge, it didn’t fit at all. Now it may be pressed to fit once tightened, but not easily by hand, which I imagine is by design. It appears that it certainly lines up, obviously, with the hole of the chainstay, but there’s a gap there where that wave washer fits, no doubt, a very precise tight fit overall!! I would venture to guess that the inner extruded edge actually does press ever so slightly into that bushing once tightened to allow for chainstay to be attached to that point but allowing it to pivot as it attaches to that inner edge of the bushing! Simple yet quite elegant in design!

But alas, I haven’t removed that bushing yet. I expect I’ll need to file the edges of a nut to allow passage of it (10.8mm) but my thinking is to use a small two jaw windshield arm puller where the center pushes against the bolt from the inside where the nut driving the bushing sits in between the stays and the arms attached to the outer edges of the seatstay. We’ll see what happens! I’ll take a picture and hopefully this thread will allow me to post it?

Well I went and got a M5 bolt, nuts, and washers to make a simple press/Removal kit for the ST Bushings! Here are the pics! Oh well, I took some that would provide basic yet valuable detail as to how to do this, but as yet, I am not able to post??? Well I went and got a M5 bolt, nuts, and washers to make a simple press/Removal kit for the ST Bushings! Here are the pics! In my case, the longest M5 bolt I could buy was 1.5”, so it was long enough to just break the bushing out of its seat before the end of my little two jaw puller (which after the removing second bushing broke!) touched the chainstay. So I removed the puller and then proceeded to use some 4x4 block end that I had cut at like a 50 degree angle to support some trees. With one hand I held that pointed end of that block up against the arm of the Seatstay on the Ti end and held a hammer sideways and tapped the rest of the bushing out. Worked like a charm! The M5 nut and washer, although necessarily smaller than the outer band of the bushing, are small enough to push through the axle without damaging the seat of the bushing within the Seatstay.

[glepore]

Just did this process. I would have liked to get an M5 bolt long enough to go thru the stays and a socket so that I could "pull" the bearing out by tightening a nut on top of the socket, but no go. Ended up driving it out. But man, it was stuck. Multiple soakings with PB Blaster, and then patient tap tap tap tap ( I'm being kind, it was more like bang) with the seatstay carefully supported just on the ti side of the junction, and it popped free.
I'd be liberal with the anti seize on reinstall, including on the shoulder of the pivot bolt.