Skewered, a Sad Tale

[keno]

In the search for happy bike and wheel combinations, yesterday I took my Velomax/Pro Race combo off the Serotta to try on the steel Sprectrum. About two miles into the ride I had to stop, and when starting up, the crank froze. After much inspection, I noticed that the rear wheel had come out of the dropouts and the cassette was lodged in the chain stays. I am always careful about getting good closing pressure on the skewers and opened them and reset them in the dropouts, being as careful and exacting as possible. Once again, I started up and the same thing happened. The wheel had popped out again. I hoisted my bike on my good shoulder and walked home.

I put the Velomax wheels on the Serotta and went for a 40 mile, mechanically uneventful ride, all of the time thinking of how this could have happened. Here are what may be some relevant facts.

I have never had a similar problem with the Mavics and Mavic skewers on the Spectrum or the Serotta.

The dropouts on the Spectrum are 10 degrees off horizontal according to Tom, who should know, so the forward pressure of pedaling would put pressure on the axle in the forward, or out, direction. The dropouts do not have serrations, or lawyer locks I believe they are called, but are smooth. Tom has never heard of the problem I have had on any of his bikes.

The dropouts on the Serotta are vertical, so forward pedaling pressure would put pressure on the axle against the side of the dropout body. The dropouts have lawyer locks.

Velomax wheels have never been loose on the Serotta once locked in, that is, they have not wanted to fall out when the bike is lifted vertically.

The Velomax skewers have pronounced locking serrations made of metal on the surfaces that touch the outside surfaces of the dropouts. The Mavic skewers have less pronounced locking serrations that appear to be made of a composite, non-metallic material.

My theory is the the Velomax skewers and their pronounced metal serrations slipped on the smooth metal surface of the Spectrum dropouts when I applied pedal force.

I will be visiting Tom on Friday to go over the possibilities with the two sets of wheels and the bike, which sadly suffered paint damage down to the bone on the inside of the cassette side chain stay.

I never thought twice about having to fiddle with the Velomax skewers on the Serotta until I experienced the ease of the quick release Mavic skewers on the Spectrum. Now I know where I stand on this one.

Any similar stories out there or other theories I can mull over with Tom? Would any of you honestly anticipated this possibility?

keno

[Ginger]

Keno! I'm sorry to hear that your beautiful new bike is now scuffed!
So Sad.
:(

Ginger

[pale scotsman]

Keno - It's the end caps on the hub that is causing the problem, not the skewers. They just don't have enough bite to keep the wheel in place. Went through the same thing with Velomax wheels on a ti Merckx. Called Dan at Velomax and he sent some new end caps with more bite and the problem is gone. You might want to send Velomax an e-mail. They are good guys.

Pale

[Serotta PETE]

Keno, I am so so sorry to hear about the mishap. (especially first scar on the new bike.)

I has this happen years ago with a Campy hub but no reoccuarnce in the last 10 years....

Hopefully Tom can paint the stay. (or cover with a MAVIC decal

[amg]

keno,

As a fellow owner of a Spectrum steel and someone who has experienced a similar problem with another steel frame with horizontal dropouts, I can shed some light on the situation.

First off as a rule of thumb with horizontal drop outs, I like to pull-back/unwind the drop out screws so that the hub axle-end nut and skewer are making full contact with the drop-out face. If the hub/skewer is not making full contact, it can lead to the problems you are experiencing. Notice also that Tom makes the bottom half of the drop-out a bit shorter than the top to allow for easier wheel changes. IMHO this makes it a bit more critical that the hub/skewer are making good contact with the drop out.

Second, check to see that the Velomax axle end nut serration are biting and making an impression into the inside of the drop out faces. This is especially critical on the drive side! Often times wheel manufacturers try to save weight where ever they can and spec. some pretty cheap and soft metal around the hub. The Spectrum drop outs are nickel plated so they are bit harder than non-nickel plated drops, but not as hard as a typical chromed drop out.

Thirdly, the skewer. A lot of these new skewers simply don't have the hutzpah to hold a wheel in a horizontal drop out. Some of the skewers on light weight wheels simply don't have the clamping force to work properly on a horizontal drop out config. I would even bet that the wheel designers design the skewer around a semi-vertical/vertical config. because market wise, that's the predominant set-up these days.

When I received my Spectrum from Tom, he had the wheel a bit too far forward in the drops for my personal preference. Not that it was unsafe or wrong, but I like to err on the conservative side with these things. Even with the wheel a bit too far forward for my tastes, I didn't experience the problems you are facing because (now don't get me wrong here) I use Campy and Campy makes a good skewer that holds onto a hor. drop out well. Plus, the Campy hub bites into the drop out very well.

I have a hunch that with the Velomax wheels, it may be best to pull the wheel back into the drop out more and if you are still expereicing problems, I personally would recommend stronger skewers such as Campy Chorus or Record. Good luck and please let us know how it goes.

Antonio



:beer:

[keno]

and, to be completely honest, while I did not fully understand his explanation, pale scotsman was on the money, I think. Adam, the tech, made it sound like it was the removal of material on the drive side axle nut, whatever the hell that is, that is necessary and he is sending me one that will solve the problem. His explanation was that some steel frames are constructed with narrower dropouts, not separation but the width of the dropout itself, which resulted in the problem I experienced. Anyhow, two 5mm Allen wrenches to get the offending nut out and replace with the solution nut should solve my problem. Well, whose problem it is I am not sure.

I HAVE TWO QUESTIONS.

1. Can anyone refer me to a diagram of a wheel axle which will make clear the source of the problem and why it is not the skewer?

2. With the new, magic axle nut do I in any way compromise my ability to use the wheel as reconfigured on my Serotta or any other bike?

Welcome to the Jungle.

keno

ps Extra points for getting the closing reference.

pps Thanks for the condolences on the frame finish damage. Seems to be in my karma as when I had the triple on the Concours and the chain jumped, similar damage, different place.

[adavis]

Closing reference:
Guns 'n Roses

Can't help with the real questions

[keno]

that was EXTRA points.

No harm, no foul.

keno

[M_A_Martin]

My question is:

Evidently, this is a known Velomax wheel issue. The tech knew what the problem was and is sending parts to fix it (parts they evidently have on hand for this very situation) By providing the parts, they admit that there's a problem don't they? The wheel didn't come with parts that you could have installed to fix the problem (or probably ANY information that this would happen in certain situations) did it?

Is Velomax going to ante up for your paint damage?

Is there a lawyer in the house?

Of course Velomax is not liable for the use you put their wheels to...but it frustrates me when I see companies (no matter how wonderful they are) who have a known issue with a known fix, who do not provide the fix when they provide the product. Yeah it might cost them more..but c'mon now. That's a pretty bike that could have avoided a scar...heck, even a huffy doesn't deserve treatment like that!

Heh heh...Guns and Roses...You never cease to amaze me Keno.

[pale scotsman]

Keno - Dang, whenever I explain something it makes perfect sense to me. :) Then again I'm not too fond of typing so I try to keep stuff short and sweet. The Velomax website has excellent tech sheets so you might want to take a gander over there. BTW the new nut aint gonna effect squat on the Serotta.

So what do I win!!! A couple tanning sessions??? Beer? :beer




http://www.velomax.com/site/Technology/HubDetail.htm:

[vaxn8r]

Well, I had the same scenario on my 753 Merkx a few years ago. I was using someone else's wheels with Performance ti skewers and the wheel ripped out twice destroying a good chunk of paint of the chainstay. And I tend to put a lot of tork on my skewers. No matter how tight I torqued those things I could make them pull out of the dropout. Now I never changed any hub cap or bolt but new skewers solved the problem....but not the paint!

So I always attributed it to cheap Performance parts. That or ti skewers. Who needs ti skewers anyway?

[pale scotsman]

M_A you've got a valid point. Keno's got a beautiful frame that is marred and truthfully it could have been worse. When it happened to me I had a brand new Merckx Millenium 3 with Dura-Ace and Velomax wheels that I got from Colorado Cyclist. I'm no bonehead, Schwinn school class of '91, like that matters, anyhoo I made sure the skewers were tight and on the maiden spin around the block the g$%&5 wheel slipped. I knew exactly what had happened so I stopped and tightened the skewer a little and under high torque the same thing happened again.

I called CC and asked them what they thought and they wanted me to send the wheel back, so I e-mailed Velomax and had the part on the way that day. I guess in this day and age of cookie cutter bikes the horizontal droupout doesn't count for a large # of sales so they don't spec it.

I think it was PanTerra that had the same problem with a Lemond with Rolf wheels and he pretty much trashed the bike. Twice. As a footnote the csi the bike shop traded him up on had the same problem. It's the darn hubs and the lack of a decent purchase on the dropouts. I think it's the wheel manufacturers fault. Then again they can say that if the bike were assembled at a pro shop they could have caught it. Not sure what the warranty states but I think Keno has a legitimate gripe here.

[SPOKE]

Keno,
very sorry to hear about the wheel mishap. i hope Tom can quickly and easily repair the paint damage.

my best guess is that the hub end cap that Velomax is sending you has a shorter protrusion (the portion of the end cap that rests inside the drop out slot). when the QR is tightened with the original end cap installed the underside of the QR nut bottomed out on the end of the hub end cap instead of on the drop out faces since the drop out thickness is a bit thinner than on the Serotta.

i have to agree the Ginger. Velomax needs to get the paint repair bill.

[Sandy]

I agree with both Ginger and Spoke. If Velomax knew that such a problem existed and provided no fix or warning about the potential problem on certain dropouts, then, as a layman, I would think that Velomax must have some liability. It surprises me that Velomax would allow that situation to remain unchanged, considering the potential injury to a rider and damage to a frameset and or components. I would think that it would be both a prudent and wise move for Velomax to eat the damage to the frame. Of course that might not occur too easily since that might set a legal precedent.

From the following and reputation that Tom Kellogg has, I bet he will probably be quite helpful to Keno in the repair of his new and beautiful Spectrum.

Keno, that must have been a very frustrating and stressful experience. Sorry that it occurred to you.

Sandy

[keno]

pale scotsman, your reward, should you accept it, is a spot on The Apprentice, if I can make it happen. Next time I speak with Donald Trump I will try to call in an as yet not performed favor. I will have to wait for his call as he never accepts mine. In the meanwhile, you will be known to me as the man who invented the wheel. These days, an 18 year old single malt is held in higher esteem, but, it's the best I can do.

Sandy, do not fret over any potential frustration and stress I may have suffered. Frustration is being in year 2 of a 3 year wait for a Richard Sachs bike; stress is wondering if you're worthy of the bike. I suffered neither frustration nor stress. I am always pissed off anyway. At my age, may I say our, this is an interesting development that I look forward to working through. I am sure that both Tom and Dan at Velomax will be reasonable. Otherwise, I have friends. This, too, shall pass.

Jail house lawyers, thanks for the analyses. I will look for the person who feels most responsible and guilty. I don't care who is actually liable. If my body had been damaged, well, that's another story. That would be free bikes for everyone! This is a small matter, but rest assured, conversations in the a duly serious tone will be had with those involved in my tragedy. And some may know how Mel Brooks defined the difference between comedy and tragedy. Comedy is a man carrying cases of eggs who steps blindly into an open manhole. Tragedy is when I get a pimple in my nose.

Off to ride the Serotta with the Velomax.

keno

[Ginger]

I'm just glad you didn't scuff your body Keno.

It could have been worse. Far worse.

[PanTerra]

Originally posted by pale scotsman


I think it was PanTerra that had the same problem with a Lemond with Rolf wheels and he pretty much trashed the bike. Twice. As a footnote the csi the bike shop traded him up on had the same problem. It's the darn hubs and the lack of a decent purchase on the dropouts. I think it's the wheel manufacturers fault. Then again they can say that if the bike were assembled at a pro shop they could have caught it. Not sure what the warranty states but I think Keno has a legitimate gripe here.

Just a clarification. I haven't had a problem with the CSi. Those drop-outs are great, the 3d ear type. I use a Shimano XT mtb skewer on it, as a little insurance. However, I did have a similar problem on my Tommasini Tecno. The Tecno had horizontal chrome drop-outs - very hard and difficult to get a good grip with the current crop of skewers. Dnovo had the same problem on his Tecno and suggested putting on a generic old-style chromo skewer, the kind with the internal cam. After the LBS hammered little x's on the chrome drop-out there is now something for the skewer face to bite.

See my experience:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=614

Also see:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=218

for my experience with the Tecno horizontal drop-outs. You will have to scroll down towards the end to read it.

Keno, you got off lucky, only the paint was marred. I bent the seat stay, bent the derailleur hanger and stretched open the drop-out. The chain was jammed so hard between the cassette and spokes, i couldn't detach it from the wheel. At least I didn't have to carry it home. This happened at the farpoint of a club ride, so I just waited an hour for a ride.

[keno]

I hope I did get off so lucky. Tom hasn't examined the frame, so I don't know what else I've got on my hands.

In any event, the event has brought the Concours and me closer together.

keno

[PanTerra]

Just know that i feel your pain. :(

[e-RICHIE]

e-KENO
amg's on the money.
it's the best explanation you'll get on this issue.
e-RICHIE

ps

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