Armstrong: If I was the carpenter, Pantani was the artist

[Shortsocks]

As the 10 year anniversary of Marco's death is coming up on valentines day. An Article that I enjoyed on cycling news written by Armstrong himself.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrong-if-i-was-the-carpenter-pantani-was-the-artist#

[WickedWheels]

Why can't Lance just go away. Who is interviewing him? Shame on Cyclingnews.com for publishing him. He is an embarrassment to the sport for SOOOOOO many reasons that I think he deserves to lose a voice in it.

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[rnhood]

Good article by Lance. Two good cyclist, and both knew how to dope. Those were the days...

[Shortsocks]

Sorry you feel that way.

For me watching the Lance/Pantani fights during the tour have and generally will be my favorite cycling duels of all time. I just really enjoy watching them. Specifically the night before I'm lucky enough to get away from Dallas long enough to get to a destination that has mountains I can climb. The night before I'm generally so excited to ride I can't sleep so I'll stay up and watch those cycling duels on YouTube....gets me excited for the next day's riding that I rarely get.

I personally thought, regardless of all the heat Armstrong gets, that it was a gentleman thing to do to write this article. Because regardless of what history BOTH of them have with doping and such....no one has experienced pantani close up more than lance has. I miss Pantani quite a bit. I miss watching him climb in the drops and dancing on the pedals. (I don't miss trying to climb like that and breaking my back in the process...I'm such a tool :hello:)

Pantani was a great in my book. And I'm not going yo harp on Armstrong for writing this. (Even though he was a dick to the old elephant :banana:)

[false_Aest]

Why can't Lance just go away. Who is interviewing him? Shame on Cyclingnews.com for publishing him. He is an embarrassment to the sport for SOOOOOO many reasons that I think he deserves to lose a voice in it.

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1) Lance doesn't go away because forumites keep talking about him.

2) I'm pretty sure its a good thing to keep people like him in the spotlight. We're constantly reminded of the cheating right? Bury the cheating and we forget that it happened.

3) His "image" might get better with good articles + apologies or whatever but he's always gonna have a * next to his name. Cuz no one will break the 7x winner-to-loser record. EVER.

[PQJ]

Why can't Lance just go away.

The almighty greenback sees potential for more returns. Lance's image rehab is just getting underway and will pick up steam. Guaranteed. I, too, would like to see him disappear, but it aint gonna happen.

The article was interesting, however. In spite of what Lance represents (or maybe because of it?), he is in a position to provide a perspective on the sport and its players that none of us - or most of us anyway - could never have.

[mgm777]

Interesting insight and account of a major actor in cycling's history. I liked it.

[malcolm]

Lance won't go away because he is a part of pro cycling. He was the top of a very dirty heap. They were all dirty he was just the best of the worst. Accept it for what it was and move on. He was a great endurance athlete going back to his teenage years. He had the most notoriety and the most power, this allowed him to be what he was. If it wasn't him there would have been a long line to replace him. No one is as good as their best deed nor as bad as their worst. He provided a heap of good TV and spectacle at spectacles best.

[WickedWheels]

So what's to stop him from becoming the next Phil Liggett? I wouldn't want to see that

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[PQJ]

Liggett's mellifluousness.

[54ny77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFSvzWuwuZ8

[wildboar]

Keep digging, Lance...

[verticaldoug]

Jesus was a carpenter.
Did Lance get crucified for cycling sins?

[Vientomas]

I am not adding to the Cycling News click count for that article.

[Shortsocks]

For the younger riders or People who haven't seen Pantani before. Here are a few historical rides with Pantani during the tour.

Tour de France 1997 Stage 13 L'Alpe D'Huez

http://youtu.be/RYnCSSWgTKU

Marco Pantani Tour de France 1998 - Galibier/Les deux Alpes -English comment- Parte 1/2

http://youtu.be/h2FQqHF8x5I

Please Add any links I missed. There are a lot I know. :eek:
Watching this guy climb was a real Joy. This guy made other men blow a valve climbing. He was such an Old Fashioned Climber..no one seems to ride like him anymore.
Please on top of the Lance Criticisms, which are obviously going to be here, please share any stories you have of Pantani.

[laupsi]

Lance won't go away because he is a part of pro cycling. He was the top of a very dirty heap. They were all dirty he was just the best of the worst. Accept it for what it was and move on. He was a great endurance athlete going back to his teenage years. He had the most notoriety and the most power, this allowed him to be what he was. If it wasn't him there would have been a long line to replace him. No one is as good as their best deed nor as bad as their worst. He provided a heap of good TV and spectacle at spectacles best.

for better or worse, like it or not, LA will forever be deeply embedded in pro cycling's amazing history.

[torelli]

I am tired of Armstrong too but at least he came out to pay his respects for Pantini. I will be curious to see if any other riders come forward, like Ullrich, to speak their mind.

[bironi]

Armstrong's writing is horrible and his soul searching is very shallow.

[WickedWheels]

Does anyone really think the he is paying his respects to Pantani? This is a part of his come back. He is trying to get good press. What other reason could there be for him to put pen to paper? If he wanted to pay respects for that sentiment alone he could've written a letter to his family, teammates, friends... Not to the entire world.

The real reason I'm so pissed off at him is that he still hasn't been completely honest. He still hasn't reached out to everyone he should be apologizing to. His actions are still of someone who is resentful of getting caught rather than someone who wants to participate in making the problem disappear. Don't you guys realize the good he could still do for the anti-doping movement? He hasn't done anything for anyone other than himself.

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[johnmdesigner]

So easy to hate and so hard to forgive.
Both these men paid dearly (and are still paying) for their transgressions.
None of us can imagine the despair involved in dying in a seedy hotel room all alone.
Hard to believe it's been 10 years since Pantani's passing.
It was glorious watching him climb those mountains. As an old man I try to think of him when I start to pop on the climbs.
Thank you Marco.

[Shortsocks]

so easy to hate and so hard to forgive.
Both these men paid dearly (and are still paying) for their transgressions.
None of us can imagine the despair involved in dying in a seedy hotel room all alone.
Hard to believe it's been 10 years since pantani's passing.
It was glorious watching him climb those mountains. As an old man i try to think of him when i start to pop on the climbs.
Thank you marco.

AMEN to that!

[WickedWheels]

So easy to hate and so hard to forgive.
Both these men paid dearly (and are still paying) for their transgressions.

Forgiveness would require Armstrong to actually be sorry. He's not. Pantani certainly had his demons but don't feel too sorry for Lance. He will be better off than most of us. I will never have that kind of money. Not even close, even after his lawsuits. He has his health. He has his family. He even has fans, more than most of us ever will. Don't think for a minute that his saga in the sport is over. He knows better than most that the only thing Americans love more than the underdog story is the comeback story.

[Grant McLean]

For me watching the Lance/Pantani fights during the tour have and generally
will be my favorite cycling duels of all time.

The two rarely raced each other, their careers didn't
have very much overlap. Pantani vs Ulrich, Virenque
Berzin, Indurain, Zülle, Tonkov and Gotti - those were
battles.

Pantani was a great climber before the Lance 2.0
and dominated absent of Lance in the 97 and 98 climbing
stages ... then ran into doping problems in 99.

The Lance vs Pantani showdown in the 2000 Tour was not to be,
Marco had bad stages way off the pace, tried to recover for
a couple of stages, then withdrew.

Marco was already in his steep decline into darkness during
Lance's glory years.

-g

[crownjewelwl]

notice how he mentions ferrari in the first paragraph...he has an agenda

i like the soap opera

[victoryfactory]

Lance was using the Pantani story to talk about Lance. He was
excusing Pantani because HE wants to be excused. he was extolling
Pantani because HE needs it. He was putting out the "everyone was on
dope" argument because HE wants to be judged by that scale.
As always, this article was about Lance, not Pantani.
I must admit, it was great racing in those days and I loved ever minute
of it, but it was a corrosive era and almost killed the sport.
VF

[SBash]

Interesting article but Lance still feels sorry for himself...what a little bitch!

I like what Greg Lemond said:

I know his physical capability. He is a top 30 at best. I mean, at best. No matter what. If he was clean, everybody was clean, he was top 30 at best. He is not capable of, not -- capable of the top five."

[Grant McLean]

Pantani, the stage, and the weather provided the most epic day in modern tour history:

Stage 15, 1998 - Galibier/Les deux Alpes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAlb8A5B2E

[saab2000]

Pantani, the stage, and the weather provided the most epic day in modern tour history:

Stage 15, 1998 - Galibier/Les deux Alpes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkAlb8A5B2E


I watched the entire stage live. I was at home, sick and miserable and watched the whole thing, all 6 or 7 hours of it on a combination of German, Swiss and Eurosport TV.

If there was ever a reason to use the word 'epic', this was it.

[Saxon]

Go Marco!

[Grant McLean]

I watched the entire stage live. I was at home, sick and miserable and watched the whole thing, all 6 or 7 hours of it on a combination of German, Swiss and Eurosport TV.

If there was ever a reason to use the word 'epic', this was it.

I saw it live too, was the most amazing thing.
Still have the VHS tapes.
The results of doping was fun to watch.

-g

[saab2000]

I saw it live too, was the most amazing thing.
Still have the VHS tapes.
The results of doping was fun to watch.

-g

Would have been epic with or without the preparation. They were fit and talented cyclists and the extra 'help' only brought out the last percent or two. Of that I am convinced. The results may have been slightly different but not much. They were all very good cyclists to begin with or they wouldn't be there. Most people forget that in discussions of doping and LA or Marco Pantani or Richard Virenque. These guys were already the best of the best.

[ftwelder]

I am secretly Pantani fan in spite of my disdain for drugs influencing racing results. I guess I just feel sorry for the guy for getting the worse of it all. He died trying to eat an ounce of coke while on a snorting binge. Can there be a worse punishment for ones sins? That being said, there were a lot of athletes that should have received a pay check, and didn't because of what Marco was doing in his spare time and that is what matters most. 'Same thing with Lance. What about the kids that didn't make the cut because they wouldn't dope?

I won't read the Lance story. I bought his book many years ago and was a lance fan for a while until I realized he was full of crap.

It's hard to find a good hero these days I guess.

[saab2000]

I am secretly Pantani fan in spite of my disdain for drugs influencing racing results. I guess I just feel sorry for the guy for getting the worse of it all. He died trying to eat an ounce of coke while on a snorting binge. Can there be a worse punishment for ones sins? That being said, there were a lot of athletes that should have received a pay check, and didn't because of what Marco was doing in his spare time and that is what matters most. 'Same thing with Lance. What about the kids that didn't make the cut because they wouldn't dope?

I won't read the Lance story. I bought his book many years ago and was a lance fan for a while until I realized he was full of crap.

It's hard to find a good hero these days I guess.

First of all, there are no heroes except those who don't strive for it. Don't look to sports for heroes. They're extremely few and far between. The world of sports is full of narcissistic a-holes. Look to unsung people for heroics. Second, there's no woulda, coulda, shoulda in any sport and to think that someone should have received a paycheck if it weren't for what Marco and Lance did is also not seeing the world as it is. It is likely that more, not less, people got paid because of them.

Believe me, that's not excusing it. I can't stand liars and cheaters in life. But enjoy sports for what it is - narcissism and spectacle. It's nothing more or less. Don't ask your children to grow up like any of them. Ask your children to be selfless, not selfish. Most (not all) super successful athletes are selfish. That's part of how they get where they are.

Heroes are elsewhere in life.

Charles Barkley was right.

[T.J.]

First of all, there are no heroes except those who don't strive for it. Don't look to sports for heroes..


Exactly Jim ! Most everybody on here holds Merckx up to "hero" status. Hero? No. Entertaining , exciting to watch? Yes. Popping positive three times does not make someone a hero. I mean really, who can you say you enjoyed watching win or podium in the tour that hasn't been busted /investigated?
Flame me all you want but I loved watching Lance race.....but he wasn't my hero

[pdmtong]

Who here will buy the coming Rapha Pantani jersey?

There, now we have both Lance and Rapha in the same thread.

[johnmdesigner]

Forgiveness would require Armstrong to actually be sorry. He's not. Pantani certainly had his demons but don't feel too sorry for Lance. He will be better off than most of us. I will never have that kind of money. Not even close, even after his lawsuits. He has his health. He has his family. He even has fans, more than most of us ever will. Don't think for a minute that his saga in the sport is over. He knows better than most that the only thing Americans love more than the underdog story is the comeback story.

Welcome to America!

Have you ever met anyone in NY (or in the rest of the western world) who has actually admitted that they were wrong? Or said they were sorry?

Plenty of politicians making a lot more money than LA who didn't apologize with their own programs on CNN.

Deniability is part of our culture. I don't like it any more than you do. I just hope you hold those in higher places than MP and LA to a higher standard.

And when all is said and done we were entertained and that was the whole point. Pantani and Armstrong were the most entertaining of the group.

[T.J.]

Who here will buy the coming Rapha Pantani jersey?

There, now we have both Lance and Rapha in the same thread.

Don't forget clinchers

[pbarry]

Welcome to America!

Have you ever met anyone in NY (or in the rest of the western world) who has actually admitted that they were wrong? Or said they were sorry?

Plenty of politicians making a lot more money than LA who didn't apologize with their own programs on CNN.

Deniability is part of our culture. I don't like it any more than you do. I just hope you hold those in higher places than MP and LA to a higher standard.

And when all is said and done we were entertained and that was the whole point. Pantani and Armstrong were the most entertaining of the group.

Yes. In the building trades it's not uncommon.

[Shortsocks]

Who here will buy the coming Rapha Pantani jersey?

There, now we have both Lance and Rapha in the same thread.

What? There's going to be a Rapha Pantani jersey?! Damn you Rapha !!
Food or Pantani jersey......?

Please. Somebody DON'T put up a link for that damn jersey.

[johnmdesigner]

What sort of level of "purity" do you expect to rise to in this sport?
It has always been dirty.
All sports are dirty.
Politics, Hollywood, the same.
Why would anyone feel the need to live in a fantasy world about sporting figures? They entertain us like movie stars and politicians.
I was entertained. I enjoyed it. I wasn't stupid enough to believe it was real.

[pdmtong]

...

[choke]

Marco was fun to watch...few could ignite things the way that he did. Lance, at least IMO, was boring by comparison. Go Marco!The Flight never agreed with me so I went the TCS route....

[Elefantino]

When I rode Ventoux in 2003, I did so in a full pink Mercatone Uno kit in homage to Pantani. Ditto for my user name. He was exciting, tragic. The other guy was a jerk.

[Spin71]

1) Lance doesn't go away because forumites keep talking about him.

Yeah, this place keeps him relevant... :rolleyes:

[oldguy00]

If you want Lance to go away, then you should want every pro athlete to go away.
Oh, I forgot, he was mean to Betsy..........

[cachagua]

...Charles Barkley was right.

What did Charles Barkley say?

[firerescuefin]

If you want Lance to go away, then you should want every pro athlete to go away.
Oh, I forgot, he was mean to Betsy..........

Plenty of pro athletes that exude class. If that makes you feel better wearing your Postal Kit...then keep repeating it to yourself.

[sfscott]

I thought it was a nice piece. He spoke it, and someone transcribed it word for word.

For some people here, Lance is worse than Charles Manson. By no means is he a "good guy" but he was a large part of cycling and his perspective on the sport and other riders is informed.

Time will tell if his introspection is genuine. But his recollection of pantani is valid. They weren't Ali and Frazier, but still interesting.

[cmg]

just youtubed some stages from the 2000 tour, mont ventoux. right or wrong it was entertaining. Pantani felt slighted after the Armstrong "gift" comment. http://espn.go.com/moresports/tdf00/s/2000/0717/637744.html started a battle of words. watch it in italian or spanish the commentators get really excited. without the comment they probably wouldn't have spoke to each other. i like to think Pantani won, it was no gift but yea armstrong just needed the time. doping bad, bastard blah, blah, blah, blah......evil.....blah.blah.

[oldguy00]

Plenty of pro athletes that exude class. If that makes you feel better wearing your Postal Kit...then keep repeating it to yourself.

But even more that don't, yet they don't get the treatment that LA got.

[firerescuefin]

But even more that don't, yet they don't get the treatment that LA got.

Don't know of many (actually can't think of one) that set out to destroy the lives of anyone that wouldn't cover their lies. Lance has rightfully earned his reputation and scorn.

[victoryfactory]

What did Charles Barkley say?

He said: "I am not a role model"

He urged people to look elsewhere for true heroes.

As Saab pointed out above, people always confuse "Champion" with "Hero"
Two different things.

Want an easy way to tell the difference?
Champions take, Heroes GIVE.

Is it possible to be both? Sure. But not at the same time. On the field of play,
you need to take to be a champion. Later, off the field, you can give back.

So I enjoyed the antics of big time bike racing in the high doping daze, But
those people were not heroes, just champions mostly.

What continues to make so many people so angry at LA is that they were
looking for a HERO and got burned. Let it go.



VF

[oldguy00]

Don't know of many (actually can't think of one) that set out to destroy the lives of anyone that wouldn't cover their lies. Lance has rightfully earned his reputation and scorn.

You could also say that most pro athletes don't have people constantly accusing them for years on end. When millions of dollars are on the line, and some journalist/wife/competitor decides to try and out you, do you just say "Ah, dang it, ya got me mate, good job"??

Lance ain't no sweetheart, I think that is well established, but he is (was) a -pro- athlete who accomplished more than most pro athletes, provided years of exciting racing, etc. Drugs? Yup, he's guilty, but no more than any other athlete that used drugs, which is the entire pro peleton, along with every other pro sport.

And, while I don't make a habit of wearing pro team kits, if I did, I'd have no more issue wearing a USPS kit than I would a Mapei kit, or BMC, etc. All guilty.

[oldpotatoe]

You could also say that most pro athletes don't have people constantly accusing them for years on end. When millions of dollars are on the line, and some journalist/wife/competitor decides to try and out you, do you just say "Ah, dang it, ya got me mate, good job"??

Lance ain't no sweetheart, I think that is well established, but he is (was) a -pro- athlete who accomplished more than most pro athletes, provided years of exciting racing, etc. Drugs? Yup, he's guilty, but no more than any other athlete that used drugs, which is the entire pro peleton, along with every other pro sport.

And, while I don't make a habit of wearing pro team kits, if I did, I'd have no more issue wearing a USPS kit than I would a Mapei kit, or BMC, etc. All guilty.

pelOton

Agree..guys like Hincapie get a pass, still makes money on clothes with his name on them. If he didn't participate/dope/race, become cycling famous, nobody would even know his name...

[oldguy00]

pelOton...

I haven't had my morning coffee yet!!! :)

[Vientomas]

He said: "I am not a role model"

He urged people to look elsewhere for true heroes.

As Saab pointed out above, people always confuse "Champion" with "Hero"
Two different things.

Want an easy way to tell the difference?
Champions take, Heroes GIVE.

Is it possible to be both? Sure. But not at the same time. On the field of play,
you need to take to be a champion. Later, off the field, you can give back.

So I enjoyed the antics of big time bike racing in the high doping daze, But
those people were not heroes, just champions mostly.

What continues to make so many people so angry at LA is that they were
looking for a HERO and got burned. Let it go.



VF

I agree, LA is not a hero. But I disagree that people were looking for a hero.

The fact is that people were not looking for a hero, LA marketed himself as a hero. The hero of all cancer victims and the families of all cancer victims. His fraudulent message was one of hope. He could beat cancer and win the Tour clean. If such an extraordinary turn of events was possible, why would every cancer victim not believe they could beat cancer and reach levels of fitness and achieve goals never before within their reach? LA gave false hope to desperately ill people, and their families, solely for his own financial gain.

LA got burned by his lies and deserves what he has gotten. Some people cannot accept that. Let it go.

[oldguy00]

I agree, LA is not a hero. But I disagree that people were looking for a hero.

The fact is that people were not looking for a hero, LA marketed himself as a hero. The hero of all cancer victims and the families of all cancer victims. His fraudulent message was one of hope. He could beat cancer and win the Tour clean. If such an extraordinary turn of events was possible, why would every cancer victim not believe they could beat cancer and reach levels of fitness and achieve goals never before within their reach? LA gave false hope to desperately ill people, and their families, solely for his own financial gain.

LA got burned by his lies and deserves what he has gotten. Some people cannot accept that. Let it go.

Wow, I couldn't disagree more.

Lance didn't beat cancer because he doped, he beat cancer because sometimes it can be beat, and he gave hope to others that their cancer could be beat too. He motivated a lot of folks to get off their asses and exercise that otherwise may not have, he made cycling more popular in North America by a long shot.
Do you really think he was convincing people that had cancer that they could all win the TDF!!?? If Lance hadn't doped (which would have made him the only one in the pro ranks...), he still would have been a hero for beating cancer and just coming back enough to ride competitively. Lets not forget, he started the whole livestrong thing -before- he won any TDF's.

[Vientomas]

Do you really think he was convincing people that had cancer that they could all win the TDF!!??

Do you really think that is what I really think!!??

[PQJ]

I can't believe we're having these discussions again.

[gemship]

I can't believe we're having these discussions again.

It's funny isn't it? The people who say let it go always seem to have the biggest axe to grind:p

[CunegoFan]

The Armstrong apologists are still at it.

It's like finding an old Japanese soldier stranded on a small island in the Pacific who refuses to accept the war is over.

[gemship]

The Armstrong apologists are still at it.

It's like finding an old Japanese soldier stranded on a small island in the Pacific who refuses to accept the war is over.

C'mon I hope your not one of those grumpy old men who gets his panties in a bunch when junior shows up with a Honda in the driveway:rolleyes:

Armstrong apologist? May we infer your not a fan and thus pointing out the double standard? I am not a fan but not too much of a hater so... I do get a kick out of the cycling forum comedy/drama it perpetuates. I learned a long time ago cycling forums represent a very passionately devoted group. Those of us that have the interest to express an opinion are all on a deserted island as the greater mass of cyclist don't get on forums much less feel the need to post on what they read even if they do. We are a wee small contingent and that's OK.

[malcolm]

Interesting article but Lance still feels sorry for himself...what a little bitch!

I like what Greg Lemond said:

I know his physical capability. He is a top 30 at best. I mean, at best. No matter what. If he was clean, everybody was clean, he was top 30 at best. He is not capable of, not -- capable of the top five."

I'm a Lemond fan, but this is voodoo at best and tainted by a truckload of personal bias. I suspect Lance in a clean field would be at the top or near it just like he was in a doped field. PEDs do not make a silk purse from a sow's ear. They probably do help separate the top couple percent, those that can keep the hematocrit up during the race and have the right drugs consistently to recover will do better.I don't think the data exists to make that statement. They all lie and most likely the whole field was doped to the gills, at least the top 25%. I'm not a Lance fan, cause he's a dick but he was a great endurance athlete and Greg can pontificate all he wants.

[bobswire]

C'mon I hope your not one of those grumpy old men who gets his panties in a bunch when junior shows up with a Honda in the driveway:rolleyes:

Armstrong apologist? May we infer your not a fan and thus pointing out the double standard? I am not a fan but not too much of a hater so... I do get a kick out of the cycling forum comedy/drama it perpetuates. I learned a long time ago cycling forums represent a very passionately devoted group. Those of us that have the interest to express an opinion are all on a deserted island as the greater mass of cyclist don't get on forums much less feel the need to post on what they read even if they do. We are a wee small contingent and that's OK.

I couldn't have stated it any better myself, besides it sounds better than "the pot calling the kettle black".

[R2D2]

The Armstrong apologists are still at it.

It's like finding an old Japanese soldier stranded on a small island in the Pacific who refuses to accept the war is over.

I think the last one died very recently.

[PQJ]

It's funny isn't it? The people who say let it go always seem to have the biggest axe to grind:p

Maybe your comment wasn't directed at me, but to the extent it was, I'm not sure I catch your drift. I've never said 'let it go' (at least not in this thread). I'm just surprised there is a rehash of the same old arguments that have been rehashed ad nauseum a bajillion times. I guess it's inevitable that any thread dealing with the guy will always devolve to this.

[gemship]

Maybe your comment wasn't directed at me, but to the extent it was, I'm not sure I catch your drift. I've never said 'let it go' (at least not in this thread). I'm just surprised there is a rehash of the same old arguments that have been rehashed ad nauseum a bajillion times. I guess it's inevitable that any thread dealing with the guy will always devolve to this.

Nope not at you, nothing personal about it. Couldn't agree more actually but no surprise as it's a passionate subject.

[WickedWheels]

Unsubscribing from this thread, but with parting words...

See, this is one of the reasons I wish Lance would go away. I don't want to see anyone publishing a word he says until he's ready to be totally honest and willing to help the sort he tarnished.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[malcolm]

Very few of these guys have been totally honest. Most only spoke up once they had no other choice and then only said what they needed to say. I can't think of one that came out and spilled it all until they were caught or in a corner.

[rnhood]

I'm a Lemond fan, but this is voodoo at best and tainted by a truckload of personal bias. I suspect Lance in a clean field would be at the top or near it just like he was in a doped field. PEDs do not make a silk purse from a sow's ear. They probably do help separate the top couple percent, those that can keep the hematocrit up during the race and have the right drugs consistently to recover will do better.I don't think the data exists to make that statement. They all lie and most likely the whole field was doped to the gills, at least the top 25%. I'm not a Lance fan, cause he's a dick but he was a great endurance athlete and Greg can pontificate all he wants.

Agree 100%. There are many systems at work in the body and drugs can help a little, but just a very little. Lemond is just exhibiting typical jealousy. I view him as a 5 time winner, that only won 3. Lance was a 5 time winner, that won 7.

[PQJ]

Nope not at you, nothing personal about it. Couldn't agree more actually but no surprise as it's a passionate subject.

Fair enough. I figured as much but one can never tell on the internets. :beer:

[laupsi]

I'm a Lemond fan, but this is voodoo at best and tainted by a truckload of personal bias. I suspect Lance in a clean field would be at the top or near it just like he was in a doped field. PEDs do not make a silk purse from a sow's ear. They probably do help separate the top couple percent, those that can keep the hematocrit up during the race and have the right drugs consistently to recover will do better.I don't think the data exists to make that statement. They all lie and most likely the whole field was doped to the gills, at least the top 25%. I'm not a Lance fan, cause he's a dick but he was a great endurance athlete and Greg can pontificate all he wants.

oh god, I do have this NEED to make corrections, can't help myself here - there's some data out there indicating that dopers who are marginal or average compared to their competition achieve better results from doping than those w/naturally BETTER genetic traits. in turns out this MAY cause the lesser athlete to actually outperform his/her stronger competitor when both are doping.

[mtechnica]

It's OK to like Pantani but dislike Armstrong even though they both doped; Lance was an a hole and Pantani was cool. People (including Lemond as much as I like Lemond) taking cheap shots at Lance's physical ability are kidding themselves though. There's no way of knowing what would have happened if all of the top riders weren't doped up so you kinda gotta take the results as they were, to some extent, and accept it.

[mtechnica]

oh god, I do have this NEED to make corrections, can't help myself here - there's some data out there indicating that dopers who are marginal or average compared to their competition achieve better results from doping than those w/naturally BETTER genetic traits. in turns out this MAY cause the lesser athlete to actually outperform his/her stronger competitor when both are doping.

I've heard this too but it's a pretty esoteric argument. It is possible I guess that one doping regimen could be better implemented than others, causing certain teams or riders to have advantages.

[laupsi]

I've heard this too but it's a pretty esoteric argument. It is possible I guess that one doping regimen could be better implemented than others, causing certain teams or riders to have advantages.

I guess there's much to consider in this debate; being a sub achiever myself I can imagine what it must be like to get an artificial kick as it were, what it would to my morale, my enthusiasm going forward.

[malcolm]

oh god, I do have this NEED to make corrections, can't help myself here - there's some data out there indicating that dopers who are marginal or average compared to their competition achieve better results from doping than those w/naturally BETTER genetic traits. in turns out this MAY cause the lesser athlete to actually outperform his/her stronger competitor when both are doping.

Agreed to a small degree. Lay athletes have this image in their mind that epo and whatever will turn pack fodder into champions and it just wont happen. The genetics and work ethic have to be there. I still say at that level it helps separate the already freakish top few percent, but hey it's my opinion and remember there is data out there to support anything you wish it to support, usually not peer reviewed large studies. The statement Lemond made is opinion nothing more.

[laupsi]

I guess there's much to consider in this debate; being a sub achiever myself I can imagine what it must be like to get an artificial kick as it were, what it would to my morale, my enthusiasm going forward.

a good read to shed some light, actually it's pretty much indirect, is Laurent Fignon's biography.

Fignon was a prodigy in France as a junior. understand at the time he was huge; France had a well established cycling tradition and junior program, LF was simply blowing the doors of his local competition. As a pro LF came across GL who BTW was actually crushing his competition locally and in the pro ranks prior to EPO and only GL was considered someone he now feared, other than Mr Hinault, but that is another story...

Now compare this "beginning" w/that of LA and a different story unfolds. Granted LA was a talented and gifted rider as a Tri guy and junior, BUT LA was not the phenom LF and GL were when they were cutting their teeth.

[katematt]

didn't mind the article and it was nice to get some backdrop on some scenes of history.

Do see this as posturing however, with Ferrari being mentioned early and the word honest used more than once in the body.

[CunegoFan]

I've heard this too but it's a pretty esoteric argument. It is possible I guess that one doping regimen could be better implemented than others, causing certain teams or riders to have advantages.

It is hardly esoteric. Hamilton has a natural hematocrit of about 40. Vaughters has a natural hematocrit in the high forties. Hamilton was able to use EPO to get a much larger boost than JV. It gets more complicated than just the percent that HCT can be increased. JV says the VO2Max increase is about two thirds of the hematocrit increase for those with high natural HCTs but those with lower ones get a boost that is much closer to the HCT increase. So with the 50% HCT limit Hamilton was probably getting a 15+% increase in VO2Max while JV was getting 4%.

The other riders were not able to call Hein Verbruggen to ask to him to take care of riders who had proved to be faster in pre-Tour races.

The statement Lemond made is opinion nothing more.

The opinion of someone with considerable experience and knoweldge who raced with Armstrong, was able to gauge Armstrong's capabilities, and knows what it takes to win a GT.

[Shortsocks]

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j323/prelude97si/9f0829d2259f6da528cdeba2fc750040.jpg
Rest in Peace.

[SBash]

I was just quoting what Lemond said and did not say I agreed, but I can understand where he's coming from. Maybe without the best PEDS in the tour de france Lance would have not won any or reached the podium...Maybe the top 10.

OK, let's just take the VO2max of Lemond vs Armstrong...Lemond: 92.5 and Armstrong: 84.0. If both were in there prime with no PEDs, I bet Armstrong would be looking at Lemonds backside in 9 out of 10 races.


I'm a Lemond fan, but this is voodoo at best and tainted by a truckload of personal bias. I suspect Lance in a clean field would be at the top or near it just like he was in a doped field. PEDs do not make a silk purse from a sow's ear. They probably do help separate the top couple percent, those that can keep the hematocrit up during the race and have the right drugs consistently to recover will do better.I don't think the data exists to make that statement. They all lie and most likely the whole field was doped to the gills, at least the top 25%. I'm not a Lance fan, cause he's a dick but he was a great endurance athlete and Greg can pontificate all he wants.

[laupsi]

I was just quoting what Lemond said and did not say I agreed, but I can understand where he's coming from. Maybe without the best PEDS in the tour de france Lance would have not won any or reached the podium...Maybe the top 10.

OK, let's just take the VO2max of Lemond vs Armstrong...Lemond: 92.5 and Armstrong: 84.0. If both were in there prime with no PEDs, I bet Armstrong would be looking at Lemonds backside in 9 out of 10 races.

the one astonishing thing LA did accomplish during his career; evolved from a one day classics type to a grand tour winner. I challenge the forum to tell of any other rider who did this successfully. really, I would love to know, cause I cannot think of any.

PEDs must have played a part in the LA evolution as a rider and not simply a marginal one.

[malcolm]

It is hardly esoteric. Hamilton has a natural hematocrit of about 40. Vaughters has a natural hematocrit in the high forties. Hamilton was able to use EPO to get a much larger boost than JV. It gets more complicated than just the percent that HCT can be increased. JV says the VO2Max increase is about two thirds of the hematocrit increase for those with high natural HCTs but those with lower ones get a boost that is much closer to the HCT increase. So with the 50% HCT limit Hamilton was prorable getting a 15+% increase in VO2Max while JV was getting 4%.

The other riders were not able to call Hein Verbruggen to ask to him to take care of riders who had proved to be faster in pre-Tour races.



The opinion of someone with considerable experience and knoweldge who raced with Armstrong, was able to guage Armstrong's capabilities, and knows what it takes to win a GT.


Lets base all research and science on someone's opinion. I'm sure Greg does know what it takes to win, but do you really think he can be unbiased.

[malcolm]

I was just quoting what Lemond said and did not say I agreed, but I can understand where he's coming from. Maybe without the best PEDS in the tour de france Lance would have not won any or reached the podium...Maybe the top 10.

OK, let's just take the VO2max of Lemond vs Armstrong...Lemond: 92.5 and Armstrong: 84.0. If both were in there prime with no PEDs, I bet Armstrong would be looking at Lemonds backside in 9 out of 10 races.

It's hard to make that statement because there are so many other variables, teammates etc., luck, breaks, wind so on. I'll give you this, no drugs, and every variable controlled for (impossible) and I suspect Greg would beat him and every other cyclist every time.

In my opinion Greg is clearly the better natural athlete. I think only a handful of people have ever come close to his V02 max. I still think the contribution of PEDs amongst athletes functioning on that level is overestimated by many folks. If all of a sudden all PEDs went away for the most part the same guys would be winning only slower.

[benb]

I've always thought those V02 #s were always BS just to provide some sort of cover for PEDS or something to keep the journalists interested in something else besides PEDS.

As for Lance "just going away", Pantani just "went away", would those of you who hate Lance so much prefer he end up going down the road Pantani went down? Give him a break and he will fade away at a rate that avoids him destroying himself.

There are a lot of other people who have committed a lot bigger crimes than Lance or Pantani who deserve the hatred more. In the end it was all just a bunch of guys riding their bikes. After all, for the period between when he got busted and when he died, there was a lot of hatred for Pantani too.

[oldguy00]

I was just quoting what Lemond said and did not say I agreed, but I can understand where he's coming from. Maybe without the best PEDS in the tour de france Lance would have not won any or reached the podium...Maybe the top 10.

OK, let's just take the VO2max of Lemond vs Armstrong...Lemond: 92.5 and Armstrong: 84.0. If both were in there prime with no PEDs, I bet Armstrong would be looking at Lemonds backside in 9 out of 10 races.

It's not all about VO2 Max. I bet Lance would have a higher watts/kg number than LeMond, and that might be more important than VO2 max.

And, while I am a fan of Lemond too, I'm not convinced he didn't dope. He seemed to make unreal improvements from day to day in the Giro, etc from 'vitamin injections'. Yeah, right. Otto holds the secrets.... :)

[Tony T]

.

"Of course you need drugs to compete in a multi-week bicycle race. You need drugs just to watch one." — Stephen Colbert (https://twitter.com/ColbertReport/status/261240693056471040)

.

[bobswire]

.

"Of course you need drugs to compete in a multi-week bicycle race. You need drugs just to watch one." — Stephen Colbert (https://twitter.com/ColbertReport/status/261240693056471040)

.

Best tweet ever.

[firerescuefin]

....never mind

[T.J.]

And, while I am a fan of Lemond too, I'm not convinced he didn't dope. He seemed to make unreal improvements from day to day in the Giro, etc from 'vitamin injections'. Yeah, right. Otto holds the secrets.... :)

We can hang

[oldguy00]

....never mind

You and Bumblebeedave must be great friends, going out of your way to hate a pro athlete.

[firerescuefin]

Old Guy…

Since you went there.

You seem to be making this ···· up as you go along. That's great you love Lance and want to defend his indefensible actions. Wonder if you'd feel the same way if you were one of many that he waylaid and devastated along the way….for what..Oh yeah, telling the truth.

Your comment on Watts per Kilogram Vs V02 max is so oversimplified and just flat out ignorant on so many levels…and only illustrates your complete lack of understanding when it comes to the sports science aspect of the sport.

Can't wait for another educated/witty response

[oldguy00]

Old Guy…

Since you went there.

You seem to be making this ···· up as you go along. That's great you love Lance and want to defend his indefensible actions. Wonder if you'd feel the same way if you were one of many that he waylaid and devastated along the way….for what..Oh yeah, telling the truth.

Your comment on Watts per Kilogram Vs V02 max is so oversimplified and just flat out ignorant on so many levels…and only illustrates your complete lack of understanding when it comes to the sports science aspect of the sport.

Can't wait for another educated/witty response

OK, keep on hating.

And, as far as I know, I made one statement about how watts/kg might be more important than VO2 max. What else have I 'made up' along the way oh great one?

[SpokeValley]

Man, sitting here with crappy weather watching those tour links...

Getting my motor running for spring...:cool:

[Shortsocks]

You know what I can't stand in a pro athlete?

Dog fighting,
DUI's,
extreme use of opiates,
Tons and Tons of Rape,
Murder (tons of it),
illegal gun use and carrying,
Assualt,
Domestic Assualt,
Car chases with Police,
Burglary,
vehicular manslaughter,
Threatening a Women,
Steroid Use,
RAPE....RAPE....

Wait. This is Football. NFL Football. Where a bench warmer gets paid $245,000 and a Pro Cyclist gets paid 35k to get on a team, maybe sharing some winnings and some small sponsorships. If he's lucky he gets to sell a couple of rigs on a forum to make ends meet

http://www.utsandiego.com/nfl/arrests-database/

All arrests by NFL players since 2000. Obviously it doesn't count what wasn't reported.

Come on guys/girls. This BS argument needs to stop. We Are all cyclists. Always at the SH*T end of the sports world. Specially in the US. He doped! Okay. Done. It's over. He's not a rapist, murder, DUI driver, he's got just as Good as a chance as any of us on the road getting killed by a car, truck, or SUV.

He Doped. He was an A*Hole. Prob the biggest A*Hole in cycling. BUT I'm a cyclist. I FORGIVE other cyclists. We are a good and solid bunch. He doped, but to me it's forgivable. We are in it together....WE, ALL of us on this forum spend time here because we are freaks about this addictive sport/hobby. Let's be done with this and go on arguing about which is better Standard or Compact....Steel or Carbon....

I'm done. If I see lance on my daily ride, I will share his left because I'm a cyclist. I get saddle sores just like he does. :banana:

[firerescuefin]

If you want Lance to go away, then you should want every pro athlete to go away.
Oh, I forgot, he was mean to Betsy..........

Old Guy…I'll let your first post/troll stand on its own.

All pro athletes are like Lance

He was "mean" to someone


Seems well informed/legit

[oldguy00]

Wow, you have some serious hate going on.
7 pages of posts and you've singled in on me.
What happened, you spent your last paycheck on a case of livestrong bracelets that are now worthless??

[bostondrunk]

Old Guy…I'll let your first post/troll stand on its own.

All pro athletes are like Lance

He was "mean" to someone


Seems well informed/legit

Holy cow, someone needs a beer..

[CunegoFan]

OK, keep on hating.

And, as far as I know, I made one statement about how watts/kg might be more important than VO2 max. What else have I 'made up' along the way oh great one?

So let me get this straight. LeMond had a higher VOMax than Armstrong. Depending on what measurement you use for Armstrong, Lemond's was 10 - 14% higher. LeMond also raced at a lower weight. LeMond's was about 7% lower. But Armstrong is going to have a higher Watts per kg? Neat trick.

[malcolm]

You know what I can't stand in a pro athlete?

Dog fighting,
DUI's,
extreme use of opiates,
Tons and Tons of Rape,
Murder (tons of it),
illegal gun use and carrying,
Assualt,
Domestic Assualt,
Car chases with Police,
Burglary,
vehicular manslaughter,
Threatening a Women,
Steroid Use,
RAPE....RAPE....

Wait. This is Football. NFL Football. Where a bench warmer gets paid $245,000 and a Pro Cyclist gets paid 35k to get on a team, maybe sharing some winnings and some small sponsorships. If he's lucky he gets to sell a couple of rigs on a forum to make ends meet

http://www.utsandiego.com/nfl/arrests-database/

All arrests by NFL players since 2000. Obviously it doesn't count what wasn't reported.

Come on guys/girls. This BS argument needs to stop. We Are all cyclists. Always at the SH*T end of the sports world. Specially in the US. He doped! Okay. Done. It's over. He's not a rapist, murder, DUI driver, he's got just as Good as a chance as any of us on the road getting killed by a car, truck, or SUV.

He Doped. He was an A*Hole. Prob the biggest A*Hole in cycling. BUT I'm a cyclist. I FORGIVE other cyclists. We are a good and solid bunch. He doped, but to me it's forgivable. We are in it together....WE, ALL of us on this forum spend time here because we are freaks about this addictive sport/hobby. Let's be done with this and go on arguing about which is better Standard or Compact....Steel or Carbon....

I'm done. If I see lance on my daily ride, I will share his left because I'm a cyclist. I get saddle sores just like he does. :banana:

Base NFL salary is in the area of 405-420k if memory serves

[Shortsocks]

Base NFL salary is in the area of 405-420k if memory serves

Holy Sh*t really? Crap. I had no idea it was THAT much. Im in the wrong sport/hobby. Seriously. And Chris Horner cant get a JOB in the states while a bench warmer gets 420K!?!?

Damn it.

[malcolm]

Holy Sh*t really? Crap. I had no idea it was THAT much. Im in the wrong sport/hobby. Seriously. And Chris Horner cant get a JOB in the states while a bench warmer gets 420K!?!?

Damn it.

Fairly certain that's accurate. I also think the average career is about 3.5 years for all players. 1st round pick about 9 years. If you make a starting roster about 6 years. All in all not a long time.

[Shortsocks]

Fairly certain that's accurate. I also think the average career is about 3.5 years for all players. 1st round pick about 9 years. If you make a starting roster about 6 years. All in all not a long time.

I used to work with a guy who played 4 years for the colts. Defense. In the 90's. Guy was HUGE. And his entire family was just HUGE. I mean big. Not the type of guy who worked out to be big. He's just big. I would be horribly scared to see what happened if he decided to work out all the time...

He always told me that he got paid very well, Bench warmer guy, but It was the "Perks" of the job that he got. The off the contract perks from sponsors. That doubled his pay. More to just use other people's products instead of using other companies products. More of a Payoff than anything else. He left after 4 years...which is very close to what you were saying.

Its funny too. A lot of these guys who received degrees playing college, have a very easy job of getting jobs when they get out. Companies hire them just because they are "team Players". Its odd. But nice guy. Just felt like a midget around him. Im 5'9 138 and he is 6'4 380. Just a massive guy.

[Elefantino]

The average age at death for an NFL player in the league five years or more is 58.

That's 20 years below the US average. One generation less!

Sobering.

[PQJ]

And Mr Goodell was paid $44 million in 2012. For his contributions in growing a nonprofit. Sickening, if you ask me.

[cash05458]

I don't have any problems with armstrong writing an article like this...not for me to say really, nor most of us...I do find it interesting tho him doing that...like so many, I have problems with armstrong...but I do think his is certainly an american story...