stems: Did video kill the radio star???

[Kirk Pacenti]

What I am wondering is this:

Have "pop-top" stems forever replaced the more classic looking one piece, single bolt types? I know all the reasons for the success and popularity of the "pop-top", including their necessity for most carbon bars. (funky bar shapes, stress risers, etc.) Not to mention all the benefits from the manufacturing and retail sides.

But it's strange to me that among high end consumers, who know what size frame, stem and bar combinations work best for them; why use what is a (imo) clunky, un-refined, industrial looking and some times heavier design?

If the 31.7 bar size becomes the new standard, which it seems to be, then the hole in the stem/bar clamp area is more than large enough to except all but the most bizarre shapes. Also, if there is a mass return to the classic handlebar shapes of the past (one can dream right?) why wouldn't we also return to single bolt stem designs?

Any thoughts???

[davids]

...as I was driving my 12-year old daughter and her friend to the video store last night, the friend started singing, "Video killed the Radio Store..."

[Kirk Pacenti]

...as I was driving my 12-year old daughter and her friend to the video store last night, the friend started singing, "Video killed the Radio Store..."

It's amazing how many songs from that era are being covered by modern bands!


But now back to stems... what gives with the pop top???

[Korn Julio]

I rather prefer the pop tops myself.

[Too Tall]

Kirk, just for giggles...post a pic of an "offensive" pop top stem.
How do these strike you?

[Darrell]

Kirk, just for giggles...post a pic of an "offensive" pop top stem.
How do these strike you?

Tania , get me a bucket, I am feeling ill

[Climb01742]

i'm an infidel but i like threadless stems. they are chunkier and more industrial but i personally like a more industrial look, particularly as frames evolve toward chunkier, more industrial shapes. for many people, their position is still evolving, and being able to easily, quickly mess with bar reach and drop is a plus. that said, on a more classic thin tubed lugged steel bike, a threaded stem looks very appropriate.

flat-top, anatomic bars are another story. no thanks.

[shinomaster]

Kirk...A nitto pearl or oyster or a ttt synthesis stem would look--well confused on a Cinelli Aliante or a six 13 or any other modern bike. That is not to say that it wouldn't look fine on a Vanilla or a Sachs or the rusty Serotta I have in my closet. With the nostalgia for stems you must be nostalgic for frames and wheels and saddles and aero seatposts and steel frames joined by lugs. You can't have one without the other.
Ok yes you can.

[William]

As blasphemous as this sounds, I started using chunkier aluminum MTB stems on my road bike in my earlier racing days because I didn't like how much I was twisting around the road stems of the day in my standard pseudo sprinter diesel train M.O. in the run for the line. So frankly the chunkier thread less stems out today seem very apropos to my eyes.


William

[Too Tall]

Ignore the 600 lb GorWilla in the corner, he breaks everything ;)

[William]

Ignore the 600 lb GorWilla in the corner, he breaks everything ;)

Bananas ;)

....as in, You got any??? I'm hungry.




William ;)

[Kirk Pacenti]

This thread has nothing to do with lugs or quill stems. I firmly believe that the thread-less system is superior to quill stems in *almost* every way.

My point has to do with sophisticated bicycle consumers like you settling for an ugly stem. With a 31.7 bar, a change back to 1 pc. stem clamp could be quite simple. A beautiful Nitto-esque or Cinelli forged thread-less style stem could be easily to produced. Or, an industrial looking welded Ti, steel or Al stem for that matter, if your tastes run that way.

Again, I do understand the convenience of "pop-tops". It really is hard to argue against it. BUT, how often is any one here actually swapping bars and stems? Is it really needed convenience if you swap out your bar less than once a year? Unless you have several sets of brifters, you have to strip the tape and remove the shifting system any way, right?....

This question is motivated strictly out of morbid curiosity. I have "pop tops" on my bikes, I just realized that once I set the bike up, I never need to touch it again, so what’s the point? :confused:

[e-RICHIE]

can someone tell me why a 31.7 h'bars are more desireable?
aren't they heavier across the board?

[dirtdigger88]

so what’s the point? :confused:


ease of manufacturing-

Jason

[William]

Weeeell, that's a horse of a different color!

Since I don't swap bars out very often, I can't see a real advantage of the two piece/faceplate stem over the one piece/one bolt stem. They both do the job of holding things where they need to be. But, it was nice when I switched from a 120 to a 130 to be able to just pop the face plate off and switch without messing with the bar tape & brifters. Of course I only did that once in the last 8 months or so.
Now if your in a shop doing a fitting & trying out different stems, the two piece is a plus. Other then that, to my eyes, I don't see the real advantage.


William

[Kirk Pacenti]

Jason,

Yeah, there probably is a manufacturing aspect to it. That's what drives much of what is marketed as "innovation" in the bike biz. As much as I like thread-less systems; I am convinced ease of manufacture (fewer SKU's etc.) is what ensured their success.
And does any one remember Haro's magic "one size fits all" head tube lengths?

As a product designer, manufacturability is one of my top concerns, but there has to be some concession to beatify a product... I'd hope

[Kirk Pacenti]

Weeeell, that's a horse of a different color!

Since I don't swap bars out very often, I can't see a real advantage of the two piece/faceplate stem over the one piece/one bolt stem. They both do the job of holding things where they need to be. But, it was nice when I switched from a 120 to a 130 to be able to just pop the face plate off and switch without messing with the bar tape & brifters. Of course I only did that once in the last 8 months or so.
Now if your in a shop doing a fitting & trying out different stems, the two piece is a plus. Other then that, to my eyes, I don't see the real advantage.


William

Yes, I agree and said as much in my original post.

"Not to mention all the benefits from the manufacturing and retail sides."

However, at the level of experience and quality of bikes most of us are accustomed to here, wouldn't a non-pop-top stem look much better?

My first experience with a 31.7 bar was with a frame and stem I designed for Luke Longley of the New York Nicks 5 years ago. Because of his size, I felt that 31.7 bars were warranted. I also realized that because of the large diameter of the bar, there was no need to make it a "pop top", even though it was common practice at ABG.

Because of the OS clamp, hooks of the bars practically dropped into the stem clamp. The final package was much more attractive than a "pop-top" would have been.

[e-RICHIE]

...but there has to be some concession to beatify a product... I'd hope


that's why god invented this:

[William]

However, at the level of experience and quality of bikes most of us are accustomed to here, wouldn't a non-pop-top stem look much better?

Most likely yes. Do we have any examples out there?


William

[Kirk Pacenti]

can someone tell me why a 31.7 h'bars are more desireable?
aren't they heavier across the board?

Richard,

Haven't your heard? 31.7 bars are WAY stiffer than 26.0 bars! So, it's only logical to assume they must be WAY better too! :p

[e-RICHIE]

Richard,

Haven't your heard? 31.7 bars are WAY stiffer than 26.0 bars! So, it's only logical to assume they must be WAY better too! :p


stiffer is better?

[Kirk Pacenti]

stiffer is better?

where have you been man!?

Stiffness (and weight) has been the main thrust of industry marketing for the last 15 years or more! :crap: :crap: :crap:

[znfdl]

I thought that one advantage of the oversized bars was a greater amount of contact area for the clamp, which results a lower torque needed to firmly hold the handlebar in place. I thought that this was a plus for carbon bars. Am I missing something?

My oversized Ritchey WCS Bars weigh 225 grams....... Lighter than some carbon bars......

[David Kirk]

can someone tell me why a 31.7 h'bars are more desireable?
aren't they heavier across the board?

Maybe becuase they go to 11?

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

I thought that one advantage of the oversized bars was a greater amount of contact area for the clamp, which results a lower torque needed to firmly hold the handlebar in place. I thought that this was a plus for carbon bars. Am I missing something?

My oversized Ritchey WCS Bars weigh 225 grams....... Lighter than some carbon bars......


but mr kotter...
alu bars routinely weighed less than that 10 years ago.
and, trust me, they were stiff enough and didn't break
on impact yo atmo cheers. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

It's all about the whole package. If you've got modern Campy 10 sp
and VDW's (visually differientiated wheels) then there are lots of
choices of stems from Deda, ITM, cinelli, 3T, Oval, even Nitto in ahead
versions that look just fine.

For the classic look, I love the stem on Mike Barry's Mariposa, I just
don't want to know what it cost!

-G

[zap]

Zap prefers the older h-bar clamp design. Looks nicer and is stronger but will not work well with carbon bars.

znfdl, there is a trick one uses with carbon bars that will keep any size in place using lower torque values.

[bshell]

Kirk,

I'm with you. I think faceplate stems look awful. Great for finding the correct reach and angle but after that I only use the single bolt type. Found a nice Serotta Ti stem in '01 when I built my bike. It's very clean/attractive looking and I haven't touched it since!

Same for my MTB's. In fact, if anyone has a pre-faceplate Moots MTB stem in 110mm/0 to 6 degree rise/ 1 1/8 steerer..... I'm interested.

[Kirk Pacenti]

but mr kotter...
alu bars routinely weighed less than that 10 years ago.
and, trust me, they were stiff enough and didn't break
on impact yo atmo cheers. :beer:


What's the deal with carbon parts like cranks, stems, bars and posts that weigh just as much as their aluminum or Ti counter-parts?

I don't currently ride any carbon stuff, so can't answer this for myself. Is there a significant performance difference in these carbon bits over bits made of other materials, of an equal weight?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk,

I'm with you. I think faceplate stems look awful. Great for finding the correct reach and angle but after that I only use the single bolt type. Found a nice Serotta Ti stem in '01 when I built my bike. It's very clean/attractive looking and I haven't touched it since!

Same for my MTB's. In fact, if anyone has a pre-faceplate Moots MTB stem in 110mm/0 to 6 degree rise/ 1 1/8 steerer..... I'm interested.

Thanks! I guess it's time to ramp up production on my single bolt style stems! :p :banana: :banana: :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

What's the deal with carbon parts?<cut>Is there a significant performance difference in these carbon bits over bits made of other materials, of an equal weight?


there's a bottom line performance measured in dollars atmo.

[Catulle]

Stiffness (and weight) has been the main thrust of industry marketing for the last 15 years or more!

Hell, stiffness has been the main thrust at home for longer than that :rolleyes:

[Kirk Pacenti]

there's a bottom line performance measured in dollars atmo.

Well, I guess it's hard to argue against that! Maybe I should just give up on my idealism and worldly naïveté' and just get with the industrial money making machine! :crap:

[shinomaster]

but mr kotter...
alu bars routinely weighed less than that 10 years ago.
and, trust me, they were stiff enough and didn't break
on impact yo atmo cheers. :beer:


They did??? I went from a pair of cinelli merckx deep drop bars to Ritchey pro bar five years ago and really noticed a difference in stiffness. Good stiffness, not scary.

Kirk by pop top do you mean removable face clamp? I'msuer it's just for weight savings. The shaped are designed around the bolts if you look at the designs..Even that oval stem. I think my Cinelli Solido is a cute stem. To short though..

[e-RICHIE]

They did??? I went from a pair of cinelli merckx deep drop bars to Ritchey pro bar five years ago and really noticed a difference in stiffness.

i must be a glutton for this...
how do you discern a difference in stiffness?

[dirtdigger88]

i must be a glutton for this...
how do you discern a difference in stiffness?

I was waiting for this one-

My Legend had a 1 1/8 HT- Thomson X2 (31.7) stem and Easton carbon bars (42cm width) - so on paper this should be about as stiff as a set up comes-

I now runnig a quill stem- holding cinelli 66's in a 44cm width on a bike with a 1" HT- so on paper this SHOULD be much less stiff-

If I hold the bars while standing and torque on them side to side- I guess I CAN feel a bit more wiggle in the bars- but is that the bars- the stem- the frame- or a combination of all three-

On the bike- I mean RIDING the bike- I notice no difference

Jason

[Kirk Pacenti]

If I were to set standards in the industry....a big IF (not for craft builders
but mainstream bikes)

I would make 28.6mm the standard for steer tubes, seat posts, and handlebars. The economies of scale would work very well on all fronts with multiple components conforming to a standard diameter. Raw materials, machine centers, fixtures, tooling, etc. could all benefit from sometin' like this.

Maybe I can start a movement! ...."you can get anything you want at Alice's restaurant.... as long as its 28.6mm!" :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk by pop top do you mean removable face clamp? I'msuer it's just for weight savings.

Yes that's what I mean. Nah, you could make a single bolt just as light....or lighter than a pop top.

[Grant McLean]

i must be a glutton for this...
how do you discern a difference in stiffness?

I notice a BIG difference in feel between an alloy ITM millenium bar,
42cm x 26.0 and the same bar in the same size in Carbon. I started
out with the alloy millenium on my C40. It's flexy, but not at the stem.

I think the 31.8 stem thing is the LEAST effective place to make the
bar stiffer by adding diameter. The bar flexes WAY more just inbound
of the brake lever where it bends.
When riding on the hoods on a bumpy road, the brake levers
flex up and down more that 1cm on the ITM millenium bar, not flexing
near the stem.

To demonstrate this, put your front wheel between your knees
(while stationary!!) put one hand on the lower drop, and your
other hand on the brake lever and rock it forward and back.
I thought it was very surprising how "soft" it feels.

On the road, the carbon bar doesn't move the brake levers up and down
at all, yet it feels smoother, and more solid at the same time.

I'm not a "stiffer is better" guy. But when it comes to steering input
from your handlebars to the front wheel, I find the difference between
a light alloy bar feels "vague" compared to a solid feeling carbon bar
that also doesn't seem to transmit as much buzz either.

-g

[e-RICHIE]

I notice a BIG difference in feel between an alloy ITM millenium bar,
42cm x 26.0 and the same bar in the same size in Carbon. I started
out with the alloy millenium on my C40. It's flexy, but not at the stem.

I think the 31.8 stem thing is the LEAST effective place to make the
bar stiffer by adding diameter. The bar flexes WAY more just inbound
of the brake lever where it bends.
When riding on the hoods on a bumpy road, the brake levers
flex up and down more that 1cm on the ITM millenium bar, not flexing
near the stem.

To demonstrate this, put your front wheel between your knees
(while stationary!!) put one hand on the lower drop, and your
other hand on the brake lever and rock it forward and back.
I thought it was very surprising how "soft" it feels.

On the road, the carbon bar doesn't move the brake levers up and down
at all, yet it feels smoother, and more solid at the same time.

I'm not a "stiffer is better" guy. But when it comes to steering input
from your handlebars to the front wheel, I find the difference between
a light alloy bar feels "vague" compared to a solid feeling carbon bar
that also doesn't seem to transmit as much buzz either.

-g


wow - are you saying there's merit to this cf stuff or
that you think 31.7 alu bars are worth considering?

[Grant McLean]

wow - are you saying there's merit to this cf stuff or
that you think 31.7 alu bars are worth considering?

Well, it's "worth considering".

I think 31.7 is hooey unless you CRANK on the bars either climbing
or sprinting. In "ride quality" while pedaling in the saddle, the bar
flexs at the ergo lever, not at the stem.

I think the stiffer the frame is, the more you notice a stiff or flexy bar.
My C40 feels stiff as a brick to me. It's STIFF, way STIFF compared to
my legend ti, Seven axiom, and any nice steel bike iv'e ridden.

Your RS signature is so springy by comparison, i'm not sure the bar
feel comes into the "equation" as much. Does that make any sense?

Even a 260 gram alloy bar is quite a bit more rigid than a 220 gram bar.
Have you done the twist test? Push down on your ergo levers, and
make the motion like you are trying to rotate the bar in the stem,
gripping the ergo lever.

Some bars (especially doube grooved ergo bars) i can move the ergo
lever almost 1 inch up and down. It's suspension!

-g

[Grant McLean]

I was waiting for this one-
I now runnig a quill stem- holding cinelli 66's in a 44cm width on a bike with a 1" HT- so on paper this SHOULD be much less stiff-

On the bike- I mean RIDING the bike- I notice no difference

Jason

The cinelli oldschool bars are quite a bit heavier at 325grams, and stiffer, than some
really light alloy modern bars. It's not that shocking that the difference
isn't huge. Are the 66's you ride double grooved for ergo levers?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=roadhandlebars


-g

[dirtdigger88]

Are the 66's you ride double grooved for ergo levers?

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=roadhandlebars


-g


yup- I bought more than one pair- I can weigh them when I get home-

Jason

[manet]

... Your RS signature is so springy...

hello martha

[Brian Smith]

hello martha
.

[jerk]

the jerk bent his last pair of 65s last season doing muscle tension intervals and it made him very sad....as for the difference between stems and bars and everything in regards to "stiffness"...the jerk doesn't get it. most ahead stems are stiffer than quill stems were, handlebars seem pretty much the same.....anyway, the jerk's deda campiones arrived today and they have a nice shape. they cost the jerk over 300 bucks though. didn't expect that. the jerk is going to go bury them in the back yard untill one of the f#cking bikes he has on order shows up.

jerk

[Too Tall]

Gentleman....it's all blah blah blah after seeing M.B.s stem...holy cow.

[jerk]

who's mb?

jerk

[e-RICHIE]

who's mb?

jerk



meddy berckx atmo

[Dr. Doofus]

(violating team policy by posting here...but they suck so so what)

mike barry

geeshhh

and you two are supposed to be the smart kids around here

[jerk]

(violating team policy by posting here...but they suck so so what)

mike barry

geeshhh

and you two are supposed to be the smart kids around here


team policy? *** are you talking about? huh? heh? wha?

[manet]

geeshhh

and you two are supposed to be the smart kids around here

a sorry state of affairs

[Grant McLean]

a sorry state of affairs


we don't find out the state of the union until 9pm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html


-g

[manet]

we don't find out the state of the union until 9pm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/01/20020129-11.html


-g

craven A's dude!

[Grant McLean]

craven A's dude!

don't smoke alone

http://www.molsoncanadian.ca/

-g

[Darrell]

that's why god invented this:

Telephone rings. Dazza answers, "Gidday mate, oh it's you God, yeah OK, settle down, he didn't mean it, pause, I know, I know, I KNOW, that is why you give divine guidance, yeah, for saving our souls from lumps of hidous CNC made stems. I reckon Philistine is a bit too bit harsh here mate, OK, OK, I will pass the message on"
Dazza hangs up. "Crikey he arced up a bit" he mutters under his breath.

Hi Gladdies, God wants you all to know he never created any stems {sorry Ritchie} but he did give out some divine inspiration!
God said 'Google Lugged handle bar stems and check out #6.'
He also said the rest belong on farm machinery.
Don't shoot the messenger.

PS. God used Skype, you know he really digs the internet.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to me, and I don't mean that as a cheap joke (for once).

I rode my Vitus for 12 years with the original Cinelli stem from 1984, then got an XA when the clamp on the original went south in about '96. And I thought, "Hey, this is nicer." Then I got the Serotta in 2001 with the Zepp XL stem and bars--and man, was I STUNNED! When I stood up on it and cranked, it felt WAY stiffer. But I never would have noticed the, uh, noodly-ness of the old one if I hadn't ridden the new one.

Then, when I went to test ride an Ottrott a couple of years ago, Serotta Jay talked to me afterward and I remarked to him that I was going up the hills on the Ottrott a full cog smaller than on my Legend. He expained that was simply because of the carbon down and top tubes on the Ottrott. The carbon is so much stiffer for a given weight than the Ti and those two tubes are where the bike flexes on every downstroke. You may not be able to FEEL it flexing, but it's doing it. And every time it does that you lose a bit of energy into the flexing that would otherwise have gone into the pavement instead. Every way you can make the bike stiffer laterally just puts a bit more energy into the pavement, whether it's the frame, bars, wheels, etc.

So that's the way I look at oversize stems and stiffer carbon bars. It's just one more bit of lateral stiffness that puts that little bit more energy into the pavement to drive you forward. And I need all the help I can get.

As for the "beauty" aspect, I think some of the newer carbon stems and bars look just as beautiful in their own way on the new bikes as the old ones look beautiful on a classic frame. It's just a different kind of beautiful. Ride whatever you want, but given a choice, I'd go with oversize and a pop-top.

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

. . . to me, and I don't mean that as a cheap joke (for once).

it's a new day. :banana: :banana: :banana:

[jerk]

. . . to me, and I don't mean that as a cheap joke (for once).

I rode my Vitus for 12 years with the original Cinelli stem from 1984, then got an XA when the clamp on the original went south in about '96. And I thought, "Hey, this is nicer." Then I got the Serotta in 2001 with the Zepp XL stem and bars--and man, was I STUNNED! When I stood up on it and cranked, it felt WAY stiffer. But I never would have noticed the, uh, noodly-ness of the old one if I hadn't ridden the new one.

Then, when I went to test ride an Ottrott a couple of years ago, Serotta Jay talked to me afterward and I remarked to him that I was going up the hills on the Ottrott a full cog smaller than on my Legend. He expained that was simply because of the carbon down and top tubes on the Ottrott. The carbon is so much stiffer for a given weight than the Ti and those two tubes are where the bike flexes on every downstroke. You may not be able to FEEL it flexing, but it's doing it. And every time it does that you lose a bit of energy into the flexing that would otherwise have gone into the pavement instead. Every way you can make the bike stiffer laterally just puts a bit more energy into the pavement, whether it's the frame, bars, wheels, etc.

So that's the way I look at oversize stems and stiffer carbon bars. It's just one more bit of lateral stiffness that puts that little bit more energy into the pavement to drive you forward. And I need all the help I can get.

As for the "beauty" aspect, I think some of the newer carbon stems and bars look just as beautiful in their own way on the new bikes as the old ones look beautiful on a classic frame. It's just a different kind of beautiful. Ride whatever you want, but given a choice, I'd go with oversize and a pop-top.

BBD


bbd-
do you have a fever? that was an informative, opionated and interesting post. the jerk doesn't entirely agree with you, but those are some astute observations.
thanks!
jerk

(high-five on this one this time, but yellow is still mp. :rolleyes: )

[Darrell]

Get some machined blocks of alloy, fix to surface plate, bolt various bars and stem combos into them. Put a dial gauge onto them, load them up. Measure deflections.
Most thread less stems are much much stiffer than the drop forged quill stems.
Generally carbon fork steerer tubes are much more flexable than alloy steerer tubes and 1" steel. {Why they ride so soft is the flexing of the steerer, more so than the blade}
Generally 31.8 centre section bars are stiffer at the stem clamp area but lose out big time at the brake levers and drops due the bar being butted and being so much thinner these days. Hence the soggy suspension effect of modern handle bars. As mentioned by an earlier post, the torsional deflection of the brake lever is greater than older bars. {Like Cinelli 65, 66, 64}
So when some one attributes stiffness to a componant are they attributing it to the correct item?
Yeah, we did play with this stuff a few years ago.
To publish this would require more detail and triple checking and who is going to pay for it. It was a weekend of play for a few of us. It convinced me of the reasons to not see any merit in carbon steerer forks other than weight!
Why the industry never prints any real data is "It would destroy many marketing myths and perceptions"
Show me the Data.
Single bolt stems have merit unless you have not sorted out your stem length, A custom frame builder should be able to nail this first time unless the rider's posture is changing, then use a face plate stem till you get it sorted and then get beautiful.

[BumbleBeeDave]

No, I'm just as "opionated" as ever. :beer:

But what Jay told me about the Ottrott is also why I'm so curious about the Meivici. How has he blunted the stiffness of the carbon vertically without losing the lateral stiffness that best transfers power to the pavement?

BBD

[jerk]

dazza is right on here. the jerk will add a new jerk'ism most of you won't like but it doesn't make it any less true. if you are concerned about flex, don't use a carbon steerer tube unless you are not going to use any spacers.



jerk

[Grant McLean]

Get some machined blocks of alloy, fix to surface plate, bolt various bars and stem combos into them. Put a dial gauge onto them, load them up. Measure deflections.
Most thread less stems are much much stiffer than the drop forged quill stems.
Generally carbon fork steerer tubes are much more flexable than alloy steerer tubes and 1" steel. {Why they ride so soft is the flexing of the steerer, more so than the blade}
Generally 31.8 centre section bars are stiffer at the stem clamp area but lose out big time at the brake levers and drops due the bar being butted and being so much thinner these days. Hence the soggy suspension effect of modern handle bars. As mentioned by an earlier post, the torsional deflection of the brake lever is greater than older bars. {Like Cinelli 65, 66, 64}
So when some one attributes stiffness to a componant are they attributing it to the correct item?
Yeah, we did play with this stuff a few years ago.
To publish this would require more detail and triple checking and who is going to pay for it. It was a weekend of play for a few of us. It convinced me of the reasons to not see any merit in carbon steerer forks other than weight!
Why the industry never prints any real data is "It would destroy many marketing myths and perceptions"
Show me the Data.
Single bolt stems have merit unless you have not sorted out your stem length, A custom frame builder should be able to nail this first time unless the rider's posture is changing, then use a face plate stem till you get it sorted and then get beautiful.

http://www.fosters.com.au/enjoy/beer.htm

http://www.molsoncanadian.ca/

cheers!

-g

[shinomaster]

i must be a glutton for this...
how do you discern a difference in stiffness?


Well you have to understand that this was on a very stiff steel frame with a noodle of a ttt stem. I wanted some wider and newer bars than my old Cinellis (I wish I still had them) anyway I wasn't expecting anything to change about the ride quality of the bars, just the shape of them in my hands. I could flex the ttt quill stem a lot by pushing and pulling on it. I figured all the flex was in the stem.

Well as soon as I put on the new bars I felt that the front end was not as noodley. The bars didn't torque around as much when sprinting. SO all that I can figure was that the old bars flexed more. It was the only variable. No I can not quantify the exact amout of flex difference. All I know was that my front end was less of a noode and that seemed "good" to me at the time.

Oink oink.

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=over-sized&word2=average

[Grant McLean]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=26.0&word2=31.7

-g

[manet]

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=substance&word2=style

-m

[Darrell]

http://www.fosters.com.au/enjoy/beer.htm

http://www.molsoncanadian.ca/

cheers!

-g

Fosters, near frozen gnats urine! :butt:

This is the stuff,http://www.darenberg.com.au/
Get your grubby mitts on stuff from here and enjoy! :p

[The Spider]

cause I've yet to met an Aussie who goes near it!

Darrell, the melbourne equivilent:

http://www.goatbeer.com.au/

they are ALL good.

Jerk-issimo

I too was shocked & awed by the price of those Deda Campione bars, but they look like art from where I'm sitting and despite my love of Easton I've ordered a piar for the Pegoretti to keep the Italian mojo strong. I hope you enjoy your new bars...post a review when they have been hammered.

[nicrump]

where have you been man!?

Stiffness (and weight) has been the main thrust of industry marketing for the last 15 years or more! :crap: :crap: :crap:


you guys are way off, we are up to 31.8 now. 2.9% stiffer.

[Kirk Pacenti]

you guys are way off, we are up to 31.8 now. 2.9% stiffer.

huh???

[William]

Fosters, near frozen gnats urine! :butt:

This is the stuff,http://www.darenberg.com.au/
Get your grubby mitts on stuff from here and enjoy! :p

Hey, It's not bad for boiling Brauts in before you put them on the grill.....though Guinness Extra Stout is my first choice.

William

[nicrump]

huh???


Was a joke. New bar/stems are now 31.8

[Kirk Pacenti]

Was a joke. New bar/stems are now 31.8

I knew it was a joke, but not sure what you meant. You mean vs. 31.7, right?

[dgauthier]

can someone tell me why a 31.7 h'bars are more desireable?
aren't they heavier across the board?

I thought that was the whole idea. Two hundred gram bars are "stupid light", and the manufacturers know it. So. after marketing "lighter = better" year after year, how do you make this year's 260 gram bars more desireable than last year's 210 gram bars? Why, just change the standard . . .

[nicrump]

I knew it was a joke, but not sure what you meant. You mean vs. 31.7, right?
yeah

im coming out with a 31.9 for interbike.

[Ozz]

...use a face plate stem till you get it sorted and then get beautiful.
I like this....and Foster's! :beer:

[PeterW]

Do we have any examples out there?


William

Sure there are.

These, my friends, are the sh*t!

KP, is this what you have in mind?!

[Kirk Pacenti]

Sure there are.

These, my friends, are the sh*t!

KP, is this what you have in mind?!

Yes, as a matter of fact it is. These are very close to what I think a stem should look like.

However, these are steel fillet brazed and chromed units. I want a polished / forged AL unit. Available in a black / shot peened version to work with mod bikes too. :banana: :banana: :banana:

[e-RICHIE]

I thought that was the whole idea. Two hundred gram bars are "stupid light", and the manufacturers know it. So. after marketing "lighter = better" year after year, how do you make this year's 260 gram bars more desireable than last year's 210 gram bars? Why, just change the standard . . .


odd. i thought racing for years on 3T prima 220s was
no issue at all. the 199s were the light=fragile units.
hey - thanks for replying atmo. :beer:

[christian]

Peter W,

Do you have a source for those? 135mm -73d?

- Christian

[PeterW]

Yup, these are the steel chromed track stems.

NJS ain't light, but looks perfect.

[Too Tall]

Business cycles in fla. has them....tooooo short.
Features:

Heavy-duty Cro-Mo steel construction, designed specifically for track use.
Fillet-brazed joints at clamps for both steerer and handlebar.
Rise angle: 0° (90°).
Length options: 100, 110 or 120 mm.
Handlebar bore options: 25.4 or 31.8 mm.
Handlebar clamp type: full wraparound with single pinchbolt.
Fork attachment: Dual pinchbolt, for 1.125" threadless steerers.
Chrome plated.

[Darrell]

odd. i thought racing for years on 3T prima 220s was
no issue at all. the 199s were the light=fragile units.
hey - thanks for replying atmo. :beer:

I reckon they were the same handle bar!
Just the bottom of the drops were shorter.
I got a set of 220 and 199 side by side. {I used to use them myself but I like round better}
The looked the same but for the length on the bottom of the drops.
I cut the bottoms off on the 220 to the same length as the 199.
Bingo.
Weighed the same on the electric scales!
The micrometer told me they were the same thickness at the drops.
I reckon unless they did some metalurgical trick they had everyone conned!

[e-RICHIE]

I reckon they were the same handle bar!
Just the bottom of the drops were shorter.
I got a set of 220 and 199 side by side. {I used to use them myself but I like round better}
The looked the same but for the length on the bottom of the drops.
I cut the bottoms off on the 220 to the same length as the 199.
Bingo.
Weighed the same on the electric scales!
The micrometer told me they were the same thickness at the drops.
I reckon unless they did some metalurgical trick they had everyone conned!


so?
they "lasted", no?
i raced on sets for 4-5 years straight. same bicycle
all winter too. what was the reason the other post-er
said they were too fragile? his own personal experience?
oh - and dazza, have a nice day.

[Darrell]

so?
they "lasted", no?
i raced on sets for 4-5 years straight. same bicycle
all winter too. what was the reason the other post-er
said they were too fragile? his own personal experience?
oh - and dazza, have a nice day.

They lasted reasonable, I was just flaping my gums about the extra expense. Here in OZ the extra price of the 199 seems to have been a con. Just get a hacksaw on to your 220 and you got the same thing as a set of 199 bars.
Did I wind you up? :confused:
Not my intention. :)
The sun is shining, I am taking pics of cool compact angled lugged Dura Ace equipped road frame, life is sweet. :p
Have fun, see you next year at NAHBS. :beer: :beer:

[Kirk Pacenti]

Business cycles in fla. has them....tooooo short.
Features:

Heavy-duty Cro-Mo steel construction, designed specifically for track use.
Fillet-brazed joints at clamps for both steerer and handlebar.
Rise angle: 0° (90°).
Length options: 100, 110 or 120 mm.
Handlebar bore options: 25.4 or 31.8 mm.
Handlebar clamp type: full wraparound with single pinchbolt.
Fork attachment: Dual pinchbolt, for 1.125" threadless steerers.
Chrome plated.

Yeah, those are a bit short! Of course I can only assume 98% of these stems wind up on track bikes for smaller Japanese riders.

While we're on it, what's every ones thought on the 90* angle? I have preferred this for quite a while. Since all of my personal bikes were designed and built by me, I was able to accommodate a 90* stem (salsa) in the design process.

I like it because it allows me to get a low position without (m)any spacers. It kind of seems silly to me to use a -6* stem, and a handful of spacers. Also, it's not as goofy looking to me as an upside down -6* stem, or worse a true mtb style riser stem.

What say ya'll???

[Too Tall]

Heck yeah kirk. What appeals to me is as flat a stem as possible except on a track bike and they should have some rise.

[Argos]

Screw all the other reasons; weight, stiffness, a blight on the true intent of the bicycle, marketing, etc....

I like the OD near the stem when climbing seated, ticking over the pedals. It feels better in my hand, and I don't have to do some ghetto-a$$-5-layer-tape job where is would be all squish and no feel.

O.D. is O.K.!

180-200gms, whatever. Comfy? Yeah, thanks.


PS Doof, ***? Not allowed to post? C'mon there has been some great threads this week. What's it gonna take to get you back? DO we have to be mean? We can be mean.... C'mon, seriously, C'mon, get yer arse back on the board.

[csm]

I like VB beer.