OT: SLC vs Bay Area/SoCal

[slidey]

My brains have been picked by a friend/team/lab mate who has a chance to move to either the Bay Area or SLC for some techie opportunity. In our brief discussions these are the point I've gleaned thus far, but not having any experience I don't know what conclusion to help her reach:

Presently - SoCal

SLC:
Apparently,
- there's a budding silicon valley here
- cost of living here is drastically lower
- beautiful place
- freezing cold for the most part
- great wintersports, but SOL if you're not one of them people
- mormon nation. How would non-mormons' and their families fare in terms of upbringing? The family bit is a concern as she intends on getting on with this bit fairly soon (partner sought already).

Bay Area:
Besides the obvious that there is an established hotbed of technological companies, and fantastic climate there is,
- traffic
- 5hIt expensive everything
- beautiful riding weather/surroundings marred by traffic
- cosmopolitan

So, I think she knows what she's getting into in terms of Bay Area but the prospect at SLC is more appealing. How much of a difference is it for someone who's presently accustomed to the Cali lifestyle on the params above?

Also since I haven't the slightest clue about SLC feel free to point out something interesting/obvious/unique that I'm missing out while doing a comparison.

[professerr]

Bay Area:
Besides the obvious that there is an established hotbed of technological companies, and fantastic climate there is,

- 5hIt expensive everything
- beautiful riding weather/surroundings marred by traffic
- cosmopolitan


Housing here (SF Bay Area) is extraordinarily expensive, but everything else isn't. No better way to experience the cost of housing here than to spend one Sunday going to open houses in Mountain View, Palo Alto, Menlo Park. She'll burst out laughing. It is a major factor that should be seriously considered, especially if there's a family. Rent isn't much prettier.

Traffic here is generally fairly easy to escape for riding, and cars are less hostile than any other metro area I've lived in (DC, Chicago, NYC, Boston, Tokyo, LA). And, man, the weather is just the best for riding, especially with the droughts we've been having.

Compared to SLC, we're cosmopolitan. Compared to other major cities, not really.

[plattyjo]

Housing here (SF Bay Area) is extraordinarily expensive, but everything else isn't. No better way to experience the cost of housing here than to spend one Sunday going to open houses in Mountain View, Palo Alto, Menlo Park. She'll burst out laughing. It is a major factor that should be seriously considered, especially if there's a family. Rent isn't much prettier.

Traffic here is generally fairly easy to escape for riding, and cars are less hostile than any other metro area I've lived in (DC, Chicago, NYC, Boston, Tokyo, LA). And, man, the weather is just the best for riding, especially with the droughts we've been having.

Compared to SLC, we're cosmopolitan. Compared to other major cities, not really.


Agreed that compared to where I've lived (Chicago, NYC), traffic is no big deal here. Public transportation is decent where you don't need a car and/or can get around well with a bike.

We live in Oakland and managed to buy a house at the right time so our mortgage is less than we'd be paying for rent - but we're also in a developing neighborhood, too. But overall, there are neighborhoods in the East Bay where you can live much more cheaply than SF or the South Bay.

To me, the riding makes it all worth it. Beautiful weather and you can easily access awesome places to bike quickly and easily. Great culture, food and people, too. Never been happier!

[eddief]

I think here it is about incredible diversity of so many things: food, geography, climate and micro climates, ethnic. Other than traffic, housing, and density, it is a fine place to live. And cycling...other than traffic in some spots, is pretty primo. Given a choice, I'd choose a little more warm and little less wet. It is super liberal here and I don't think SLC resembles that.

[bob59]

Having lived in SLC and SFO:

1. SLC- gotta live in PC (Park City). Summers are like Tahoe. Winters are cold but with 5+ resorts 15 minutes away I would average 100+ days a year riding(aka snowboarding). With Fat tires and studs could cycle year round. It was great for 10 years but the cold finally got to me. Mostly non mo's in PC so schools and social life are good. RE doubled in 10 years while I was there. Left in 2004. Life in the valley...miserable hot in summer, inversion in winter, lots of mo's. They are great people but if your a nonmember plan on being excluded.

2. SFO- expensive. But, I can walk to most everything...food, gym, doctor, bars,movies,work etc. I can ride my bike across the GGB for some of the best road and MTB riding ever. I can put my kite gear on my bike and pedal to Chrissie Field for some of the most epic riding in the world. Did I mention expensive.

So I enjoyed my time in UT but CA is home. Hate the taxes, politics, but the people and climate make it worthwhile!:fight:

[EricEstlund]

I never felt excluded living in SLC and working in PC, and I "stand out".

SLC and the valley can be sort of rough with the inversion, but it's generally beautiful.

Does she participate in mountain or winter sports? If so, it's a pretty hard combo to pass up. There is enough "city stuff" to be comfortable, but it's a decidedly smaller town then something like SF.

What places are actually on the table? The Wasatch front varies from town to town, as does the Bay Area.

Piece of advice- a couple of plane tickets and a long weekend in each location will go a hell of a lot further then online musings.

[Louis]

I'd suggest that she spend a long weekend in each, checking out the stuff that's important to her (e.g. housing options, recreation, social stuff, the general vibe of the place, etc etc) and go from there.

Edit: reading more closely, I see that Eric has recommended the exact same thing just above my post.

[jds108]

Perhaps if she can determine what she's passionate about, then make the location choice based on that? SLC is great for outdoors lifestyle.

I know this is completely subjective, but I'd also argue SLC is a great place to raise children. And there seems to be a dearth being raised in SF proper, but there are many great schools in Palo Alto and similar areas.

If she's a foodie then SLC won't nearly as much to offer, and about 1/10th the quantity/variety of arts.

Slidey, I think you've hit on all of the major points. She'll just need to decide which of those things are most important.

I'd choose SLC myself, but mainly just because the bay area just feels too crowded to me. But I grew up in Idaho and have a different take on population density than the average person.

[Fixed]

Park city is great for riding
s.l.c. not so great for riding
10 minute ride from my door is great riding
Fantastic bike shops lots of rider community
Drivers that like bikes
Pacific heights is a great place to live
The arts rock in the Bay Area too
No question in my mind
Cheers

[christian]

Agreed that compared to where I've lived (Chicago, NYC), traffic is no big deal here.I'm surprised you say that; I've lived in LA, Chicago, New York, Philly, and now the New York suburbs, in addition to a year in the Bay Area. The traffic was one of the big reasons I fled after a year.

[CunegoFan]

SLC:
Apparently,
- there's a budding silicon valley here
- cost of living here is drastically lower
- beautiful place
- freezing cold for the most part
- great wintersports, but SOL if you're not one of them people
- mormon nation. How would non-mormons' and their families fare in terms of upbringing?


It is not exactly freezing cold, at least not like north midwest/east cold. Daytime winter temps are often 25-35. Snow does not stick to valley roads for long after a storm. So its ridable without extreme clothing. True winter is not very long. It is sometimes as short as the middle of Dec. to the middle of Feb. with the occasional cold snap/snow shower outside of that. On either side of that is two months of riding in the forties and fifties, sometimes warmer, which I really really like. It is arm warmer and legwarmer weather without the trouble of covering yourself with sunblock.

Summer temps are a couple of months of 90+. Sometimes it goes a little beyond 100. Max temp is maybe 105 but some years it does not reach that. It is, of course, also very dry. For some reason a lot of parks don't have drinking fountains turned on. I have never understood that but luckily there is at least one Mormon church in about every square mile of the state. The suburban ones often have attached park-like areas with drinking fountains.

During an inversion the air quality is the worst in the country. Not an exaggeration. My brother moved out of the state because of chronic health issues with the air quality. A couple of weeks ago I was a little north of SLC looking for bald eagles and visibility in one area was two or three hundred meters for a while. It was not fog. In all other areas the mountains were not visible. If you hike above an inversion layer then looking down is like being on an island above an ocean of smog.

So many people have moved into the state that a lot of SLC valley is not really Mormon dominated anymore. In the outlying suburban communities you can easily move into a neighborhood where you are the only non-Mormon. The state is definitely run by Mormons, and they love to impose their ultraconservative views on everyone else. Want to go to a park, barbecue, and have a beer while you eat? No can do. No beer in parks, or for that matter any public place. 3.2% beer but it is measured differently than everyone else so it is actually 4% by volume.

[oldpotatoe]

My brains have been picked by a friend/team/lab mate who has a chance to move to either the Bay Area or SLC for some techie opportunity. In our brief discussions these are the point I've gleaned thus far, but not having any experience I don't know what conclusion to help her reach:

Presently - SoCal

SLC:
Apparently,
- there's a budding silicon valley here
- cost of living here is drastically lower
- beautiful place
- freezing cold for the most part
- great wintersports, but SOL if you're not one of them people
- mormon nation. How would non-mormons' and their families fare in terms of upbringing? The family bit is a concern as she intends on getting on with this bit fairly soon (partner sought already).

Bay Area:
Besides the obvious that there is an established hotbed of technological companies, and fantastic climate there is,
- traffic
- 5hIt expensive everything
- beautiful riding weather/surroundings marred by traffic
- cosmopolitan

So, I think she knows what she's getting into in terms of Bay Area but the prospect at SLC is more appealing. How much of a difference is it for someone who's presently accustomed to the Cali lifestyle on the params above?

Also since I haven't the slightest clue about SLC feel free to point out something interesting/obvious/unique that I'm missing out while doing a comparison.

Similar to me when I moved back to Colorado...Colorado Springs or Boulder....After re visiting Colorado Springs with 'focus on the family', etc..easy to choose Boulder...more aligned with my 'politics', lifestyle and such..I think that's what she has to evaluate. Lifestyle and how it aligns with SLC or SoCal..I'd pick SoCal in an instant..been to Utah..no thanks.

[Climb01742]

Another thing to consider might be employment mobility. If she moves to either area and doesn't like her job, where would she have more options for a job search and change?

[Ken Robb]

Another thing to consider might be employment mobility. If she moves to either area and doesn't like her job, where would she have more options for a job search and change?

This is an important consideration that did not occur to me.

[plattyjo]

I'm surprised you say that; I've lived in LA, Chicago, New York, Philly, and now the New York suburbs, in addition to a year in the Bay Area. The traffic was one of the big reasons I fled after a year.

Yeah, I don't really find it oppressive, esp. in comparison to NYC. NYC always felt way more crowded to me (and granted it does have 12 million ppl vs. less than 1 million, I think) -- and the traffic just seemed more aggro (more honking, impatience.)

I do miss being able to bike over a majority of the bridges there, however, and the 24-hour subway. But I rarely feel stressed riding in traffic here. I don't drive much but when I do commute from Oakland to SF via the Bay Bridge, it's never a hassle.

IMHO, Atlanta, DC and LA have the worst traffic.

[MadRocketSci]

If she has a diverse foodie palette, your friend will probably be missing good and accessible:

Ramen and traditional japanese
Southern Indian
Mexican
Burritos
Malaysian
Burmese
Northern Chinese
Korean

Thai, sushi, southern chinese, vietnamese will likely be substandard to SoCal standards

[dogdriver]

I've been in Park City for 20+ years. Came here for a job and never left. All in all, I'd say that the answer to your question is a huge "it depends". If your wife's job situation/commute allows you to live in a nice location, I'd probably recommend Cal. If, however, you're going to be stuck in a location from which you have to drive to everything you want to do, I'd look at Utah. If you live in or around Park City, your wife's drive to SLC (most of the tech is either south Salt Lake valley or north Provo), will be 25-50 minutes, mostly on well-maintained interstate. The weather is occasionally an issue driving, but probably less than 5 days/year. Recreation access is ridiculously good-- I usually ride mountain or road from my driveway-- put a bike in the car less than 10 times/year. Skiing is 5-10 minutes away, depending on where you live and which resort you go to. If I want to treat myself to Alta or Snowbird, its 45 minutes when the roads are good. If there's a big storm, I just stay here. The recreation comes at the expense of a "depth of culture"-- SF is, IMHO, one of the coolest cities in the world, SLC is not.
Too much other stuff to think about to mention here. PC, for its faults, is a pretty cool place. I know several "gentiles" who live in SLC and like it, but choose your neighborhood carefully... the previous advice to spend a while in each locale is probably the best idea.

[Ralph]

Being a "gentile" (or a nothing in that regard) and a visitor to SLC (and PC) several times, I know it's not for me. Sure is a pretty area though. Incredible amount of outdoor activity available.

[biker72]

I've never lived in the bay area or SLC but have visited both.

My 2 cents:
If I could afford housing the bay area would be my pick.
Yes there is some traffic but if you want to see some REAL traffic problems come to Dallas.
If you're a cyclist, the bay area is the place to be.

[Elefantino]

Lived in both Bay Area and Ogden

[Elefantino]

... the former as a native and the latter as a member of The Great Gentile Underground.

[Fixed]

At first when I got to San Francisco I was here to study yoga ..yogis here are not very friendly ..that is ok I live with one of the best teachers in the world
Then I started riding
the beautiful terrain called me .
I started meeting guys in shops
every shop I have gone in I liked
the guys that ride here are great
welcomed me like i was an old friend
Cyclist are great people in San Francisco from what I have seen :)
God is funny I came to study yoga and I got a gift of cycling ..I never thought I would ride again
Being here in s.f. Has been a wonderful healing experience
Cheers

[Louis]

I bet the Bay area doesn't brew this:

http://mimg.ugo.com/201108/9/8/7/205789/cuts/polygamy-porter_480_poster.jpg

[jamesutiopia]

Weather, pothole-free roads, nice climbs, OK traffic

[slidey]

It'd seem at a cursory glance that SLC has some insurmountable odds. But to answer a few questions -
- yes she is a foodie (at least she seems to know more than me about all that),
- not into winter sports (no reason until now) but she's open to it or that's what she says,
- she looked up 'inversion' already and said if this was the only issue then she could live outside the valley and drive in to work, which I think she mentioned is Provo(?? can't be sure)
- we did discuss better job prospects, and there's absolutely no doubt that Bay Area is the place to be for maximal exposure/choices but apparently there's a decent sampling of tech co's in SLC (her words, 0 research on my part)
- I know she's very familiar with Bay Area, enough to know all of its cons as well but spent only 2 days on co's dime at SLC and was a little surprised when Yelp recommended 'Jack Mormon coffee' as the best coffee shop around :p

There are 2 things we were able to nail down that might work in favour of SLC:
- lower cost of living
- an abundance of natural resources, which is only good in a very forward looking gaze

In any case, thanks everyone and feel free to keep adding your thoughts - she's got the link to this thread.

[Louis]

IMO she should go wherever her heart tells her to go.

If she doesn't like it, she can always move.

[joosttx]

To me it breaks down to cost of living. If he is single and makes more $150k per year then I would suggest moving to the Bay Area. If he doesn't he may want to consider SLC. SF is better than SLC but only if you are making some money.

[jds108]

To me it breaks down to cost of living. If he is single and makes more $150k per year then I would suggest moving to the Bay Area. If he doesn't he may want to consider SLC. SF is better than SLC but only if you are making some money.

This. My 4900 square foot home in SLC is/was less expensive by a long shot than the 1600 square foot home I have now in Santa Clara (next to San Jose). I'd still be in SLC if my company hadn't of gone under or I could have found a replacement job there in the aftermath...

But it's hard to argue with anybody that likes the bay area and all it has to offer (and can afford it).

[Climb01742]

I'd still be in SLC if my company hadn't of gone under or I could have found a replacement job there in the aftermath...

This would be my biggest concern. Certainly not a deal breaker but kinda key.

My field is advertising. For years I worked/lived in NYC. Now in Boston and I'm still struck by the difference in job/project/client opportunities between the two cities. The irony is, the cities with the greatest opportunities also have highest costs of living.