Mavic A719 vs Open Pro for large rider. Oh and Cannondale sucks.

[Brons2]

Well so I took my custom Rivendell in to get a new (rear) wheel and spokes. I am 6'7" and 270 lbs or so. My wheel builder recommended the Mavic A719 over the Open Pro due to this fact. I have a DT Swiss 32 with Campy 9sp and I want to keep this configuration. They are going to build the wheel with non-double butted 14G spokes in a four-cross configuration.

My two criteria are: durability, and ride quality. After doing some research on Mavic's site, I realized that the A719 is their "touring" rim. While I do indeed think this will be more durable, I haven't had problems with 32 spoke Open Pros in the past, other than this wheel that I am now replacing. The reason that the wheel is not trueable at this point is not the fault of the wheel itself...the skewer came loose at one point and the wheel was subject to, um, extreme stress.

Anyways, I am a bit worried about the ride quality of this A719 wheel. Are my fears unfounded? The thing that makes my Rivendell great is the fact that I can ride it much farther than my Cannondale from a fatigue standpoint. I don't want to ruin the ride quality

Just today, I took the Cannondale out for 55 mile ride. I feel like someone took a hammer to my extremities. I should have my head examined for purchasing such a bike. I guess it's good to have a backup, anyways, but I am starting to hate that damn bike!

So anyways....I want my Rivendell to stay comfortable.

Thoughts?

Jim
Austin, TX

[Hysbrian]

Why are you hatin' on cannondale? They make great bikes, it just not the only for you.

Come on.

As far as the wheels why would you change to something else if the O.P. never gave you any problems before?

[Brons2]

Why are you hatin' on cannondale? They make great bikes, it just not the only for you.

Because I have seen (and ridden) better and I know now that their bikes ride needlessly harsh. I have owned two but there will not be another.

As far as the wheels why would you change to something else if the O.P. never gave you any problems before?

On the recommendation of my LBS, who is building the wheel. http://www.nelosprocycles.com
http://www.nelosprocycles.com/nelo.html

[ergott]

Well so I took my custom Rivendell in to get a new (rear) wheel and spokes. I am 6'7" and 270 lbs or so. My wheel builder recommended the Mavic A719 over the Open Pro due to this fact. I have a DT Swiss 32 with Campy 9sp and I want to keep this configuration. They are going to build the wheel with non-double butted 14G spokes in a four-cross configuration.

My two criteria are: durability, and ride quality. After doing some research on Mavic's site, I realized that the A719 is their "touring" rim. While I do indeed think this will be more durable, I haven't had problems with 32 spoke Open Pros in the past, other than this wheel that I am now replacing. The reason that the wheel is not trueable at this point is not the fault of the wheel itself...the skewer came loose at one point and the wheel was subject to, um, extreme stress.

Anyways, I am a bit worried about the ride quality of this A719 wheel. Are my fears unfounded? The thing that makes my Rivendell great is the fact that I can ride it much farther than my Cannondale from a fatigue standpoint. I don't want to ruin the ride quality

Just today, I took the Cannondale out for 55 mile ride. I feel like someone took a hammer to my extremities. I should have my head examined for purchasing such a bike. I guess it's good to have a backup, anyways, but I am starting to hate that damn bike!

So anyways....I want my Rivendell to stay comfortable.

Thoughts?

Jim
Austin, TX

Straight gauge, no.
4 cross on 32 count, no.
You can run into the problem of crossing spokes over heads of other spokes which is a nightmare. You also bend the elbows of spokes at an extreme angle. There are no benefits to 4X on 32 spoke wheels. The 719 is a solid rim and worth considering. Then again if you liked what you already had (OP), stick with it!

[Brons2]

Straight gauge, no.
4 cross on 32 count, no.
You can run into the problem of crossing spokes over heads of other spokes which is a nightmare. You also bend the elbows of spokes at an extreme angle. There are no benefits to 4X on 32 spoke wheels. The 719 is a solid rim and worth considering. Then again if you liked what you already had (OP), stick with it!

Whats wrong with the straight gauge spokes? Aren't the double butted spokes thinner in the middle?

I went with their recommendations, btw. I was going to have the build another OP but they recommeded the A719. I got an email from another Rivendell rider who is 6'4" 220 and using A719's and he likes them, so that makes me feel beter.

OTOH, I can see what you're saying about the 4 cross, but I am not the one building the wheel...so I'll let them deal with it. If it starts pulling apart, I think they'll probably take care of me.

[Ahneida Ride]

Brons2

Cxp-33 36x3 14 gauge spokes.

One tough combination !

[ergott]

Whats wrong with the straight gauge spokes? Aren't the double butted spokes thinner in the middle?

I went with their recommendations, btw. I was going to have the build another OP but they recommeded the A719. I got an email from another Rivendell rider who is 6'4" 220 and using A719's and he likes them, so that makes me feel beter.

OTOH, I can see what you're saying about the 4 cross, but I am not the one building the wheel...so I'll let them deal with it. If it starts pulling apart, I think they'll probably take care of me.

Straight gauge spokes have a higher failure rate at the elbow and threads. Butting the spoke places riding stresses along the middle of the spoke.

[Argos]

Cannondale makes a great bike, maybe not just for what you are using it for, or your type of riding.

As for the 4 cross, ergott knows of what he speaks, but if the shop will be handling any future problems, and you are fine with that..... Sure will be alotta bends in those spokes.
Anyhow, you'd be more then fine with a well built and tensioned 3x of the same rim and spoke.

[SoCalSteve]

Cannondale makes a great bike, maybe not just for what you are using it for, or your type of riding.

As for the 4 cross, ergott knows of what he speaks, but if the shop will be handling any future problems, and you are fine with that..... Sure will be alotta bends in those spokes.
Anyhow, you'd be more then fine with a well built and tensioned 3x of the same rim and spoke.

I'll second that about Eric..Smart dude he is...and, very generous with his knowledge.

Send him an email, call him on the phone, do business with him. He will treat you well!

Steve

PS: I am 6' 5" 250 lbs and have a tendency to break spokes...32 spokes, 3 cross..double butted 14/15 gauge and you will do just fine. And, remember, a wheel doesnt have to be heavy to be reliable....Eric built me a set of wheels that are plenty strong and weigh 1660 grams and at a very good price as well!

[William]

Hey, I've had tandem wheels built up for me before and I broke them. I've had 04CD's and Campy Omega V's built up and do well. The difference is in the build, having someone who knows what they are doing.

Here's Ergott's Big Boy wheel suggestion which is posted on my Barbarian Bike Blog. The man knows of what he speaks:

All very good information. I still stand by the fact that gauge and spoke length do not effect tension differences between the flanges. The flange geometry effects tension differences. The two different gauge spokes makes for a stronger wheel. By using a lighter gauge spoke where the tension is low, the spoke is closer to its elastic limit and therefore compliments the heavier gauge on the drive side. There is less of a chance of slack spokes during impact. 13/14 gauge double butted spokes (2.3/2.0/2.3mm) are far better than straight gauge spokes because the stresses of impact and load are transferred to the narrower gauge in the middle of the spoke rather than the ends which are prone to fatigue. You want a big boy wheelset:

front
32 or 36 holes
3 cross (4 cross for 36)
2.0/1.8/2.0mm double butted spokes.
Velocity Deep or comparable rim.

rear
36 holes
4 cross for 36
2.0/1.8/2.0mm non drive double butted spokes
2.3/2.0/2.3mm drive side double butted spokes
same rim

hubs:
DT 240s/Phil Wood/Shimano

All is lost if not built by a master wheel builder. If you ever have a problem with this setup I promise to buy them from you!

Other hubs don't have ideal flange geometry (including Campy, trust me I have a set myself, but I don't weigh that much).
Since all current drivetrains are 10 speed you can run Shimano 10 hubs with either drivetrain with no problems. I have used Dura Ace cassettes with my Record bike since there was D-10. Shifts fine.

Eric




William

[kestrel]

Brons2

Cxp-33 36x3 14 gauge spokes.

One tough combination !

+1

[Hysbrian]

Cannondale makes a great bike, maybe not just for what you are using it for, or your type of riding.

Thanks, Argos.

[Fixed]

bro dales are great RACE bikes i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[William]

It's all tools.

If you don't have the right tool for the job you want to perform.....it's going to seem like it sucks because it doesn't meet your expections.



William :beer:

[Brons2]

Got the bike today and I am pretty happy with my shiny new wheel. Was a little more $ than I thought, $170 out the door for rim, spokes, labor and tax, but that's alright. Most of the cost differential went into the A719's. Spokes are definitely 4x but it looks pretty natural, they are DT straight gauge spokes according to the receipt. I have yet to ride it, but will do so in the next couple of days. It's raining today.

[shinomaster]

which cannondale frame do you have?

[Needs Help]

Got the bike today and I am pretty happy with my shiny new wheel. Was a little more $ than I thought, $170 out the door for rim, spokes, labor and tax, but that's alright. Most of the cost differential went into the A719's. Spokes are definitely 4x but it looks pretty natural, they are DT straight gauge spokes according to the receipt. I have yet to ride it, but will do so in the next couple of days. It's raining today.
For more information, here's what Jobst Brandt says about double butted(or swaged spokes as he calls them) in his book the Bicycle Wheel.

Spokes are in pure tension at midspan where they do not need to resist bending, so they can be swaged thinner there without sacrificing strength...The diameter reduction increases spoke elasticity, increases strength by work hardening, and reduces weight. However, the most valuable contribution of swaging is that peak stresses are absorbed in the straight midsection rather than concentrated in the threads and elbow, thereby substantially reducing fatique failures. (p. 46-47, The Bicycle Wheel)

Although swaged spokes are more expensive to manufacture and slightly more difficult to true, they give more durable wheels because they are more elastic than straight gauge spokes. Under load, they resist loosening better than straight spokes because they allow greater rim deformation before becoming slack. Their resilience helps the rim distribute loads over more spokes and reduces peak stress changes. Swaged spokes are also lighter without giving up strength. (p.48-49).
Also, it makes sense to me that large riders should use rear rims with spoke holes that are offset from the center line of the rim in order to reduce dish and thereby reduce stresses on the spokes. Maybe ergott can lend his expertise and comment on offset rims. Also, William collects all the excellent posts that have been made in the past that are relevant to big riders, so you should avail yourself of that resource and visit his website.

[Brons2]

which cannondale frame do you have?

CAAD3, 66cm. Was NOS in 2004, built with a full Ultegra 6500 9 speed triple kit.

[Fixed]

bro it may ride rough but you ain't goin to break it i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[Catulle]

Well so I took my custom Rivendell in to get a new (rear) wheel and spokes. I am 6'7" and 270 lbs or so. My wheel builder recommended the Mavic A719 over the Open Pro due to this fact. I have a DT Swiss 32 with Campy 9sp and I want to keep this configuration. They are going to build the wheel with non-double butted 14G spokes in a four-cross configuration.

My two criteria are: durability, and ride quality. After doing some research on Mavic's site, I realized that the A719 is their "touring" rim. While I do indeed think this will be more durable, I haven't had problems with 32 spoke Open Pros in the past, other than this wheel that I am now replacing. The reason that the wheel is not trueable at this point is not the fault of the wheel itself...the skewer came loose at one point and the wheel was subject to, um, extreme stress.

Anyways, I am a bit worried about the ride quality of this A719 wheel. Are my fears unfounded? The thing that makes my Rivendell great is the fact that I can ride it much farther than my Cannondale from a fatigue standpoint. I don't want to ruin the ride quality

Just today, I took the Cannondale out for 55 mile ride. I feel like someone took a hammer to my extremities. I should have my head examined for purchasing such a bike. I guess it's good to have a backup, anyways, but I am starting to hate that damn bike!

So anyways....I want my Rivendell to stay comfortable.

Thoughts?

Jim
Austin, TX

Sorry but I couldn´t tell you anything about your wheel as I just don´t know. However, I REALLY liked your quote. What´s the source? :beer:

[marle]

Sorry to hear you had a skewer problem. What skewer did you use? I switched to campy record. They are fantastic. Thanks

[Brons2]

Sorry but I couldn´t tell you anything about your wheel as I just don´t know. However, I REALLY liked your quote. What´s the source? :beer:

Actually, FDR said it.

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views05/0207-22.htm

[Brons2]

Sorry to hear you had a skewer problem. What skewer did you use? I switched to campy record. They are fantastic. Thanks

I have the DT Swiss skewers on this bike, and I don't like them. You have to really torque them down to get a sufficent clamping strength. Literally, you have to tear up your skin to do it. Maybe next time I will just use gloves. The Ultegra skewers on my other bike are much more forgiving.

[vaxn8r]

CAAD3, 66cm. Was NOS in 2004, built with a full Ultegra 6500 9 speed triple kit.
Man, that frame is ten years old. Not really fair to judge an entire bike line from whay they were building back then. OTOH Fixed is right, you probably won't break it. :)

[coylifut]

It's raining today.

so that means you'll be out on your fender bike? Right?

[harlond]

Straight gauge spokes have a higher failure rate at the elbow and threads. Butting the spoke places riding stresses along the middle of the spoke.I don't have a link, but I once researched this question on the DT Swiss site and found it to be in agreement with what Ergott says.

What do I know? Nothing, but I figure DT Swiss knows something.

[ergott]

For more information, here's what Jobst Brandt says about double butted(or swaged spokes as he calls them) in his book the Bicycle Wheel.


Also, it makes sense to me that large riders should use rear rims with spoke holes that are offset from the center line of the rim in order to reduce dish and thereby reduce stresses on the spokes. Maybe ergott can lend his expertise and comment on offset rims. Also, William collects all the excellent posts that have been made in the past that are relevant to big riders, so you should avail yourself of that resource and visit his website.


Word. Offsets are good.

[Ray]

Word. Offsets are good.
Oh yeah. Is there ANY downside to offset rims? I've been having wheels built with offset rims for several years now - Used some sort of Aurora for the rear with OP front. The local wheelbuilder estimated that a 28 spoke wheel with an offset rim is as strong as a standard 32 spoke wheel, a 32 is as strong as a 36, etc. I'm not all that big (only 165 lb or so), but I'd still use offset rear rims whenever possible. Just makes too much sense.

Am I missing some downside here?

-Ray

[ti_boi]

Brons2

Cxp-33 36x3 14 gauge spokes.

One tough combination !

Yes! My wheel -- for nice weather -- and built/recommended by Excel.

[ergott]

Oh yeah. Is there ANY downside to offset rims? I've been having wheels built with offset rims for several years now - Used some sort of Aurora for the rear with OP front. The local wheelbuilder estimated that a 28 spoke wheel with an offset rim is as strong as a standard 32 spoke wheel, a 32 is as strong as a 36, etc. I'm not all that big (only 165 lb or so), but I'd still use offset rear rims whenever possible. Just makes too much sense.

Am I missing some downside here?

-Ray

I would be nice if there were an offset that had double eyelets. No real downside that I can think of.