E-Bay and the economics of fraud

[mark]

Some of you may recall a feisty exchange about the role E-Bay plays in the economics of theft. It seems that bikes are not the only problem. Tiffany's is sueing the online operation for their role in fraudulent/counterfeit sales of branded products. If successful, the courts could hold E-Bay responsible for the representations made by their sellers. In addition, the practice of making fees for dubious transactions may be rejected. The case is current. Today's NY Times (2/29/06) has the coverage.

[alancw3]

i think ebay should be responsible for frauduent sales. whether it be bikes or whatever. ever since the ebay debacle with the hors categorie and hot deals i have made it a practice of asking for providence before i bid on something. i realise i am in the minority here (most people couldn't care less what the providence is on an item as long as they get it) but you have to be true to your own beliefs. i know that their are people here that are shareholders of ebay and think that ebay is great. so be it. at this point in life i can afford to invest in responsibly oriented companies. mine you, i am not saying ebay is not and i don't know the answer on how to police stolen items, but i am sure there are better safeguardsthan currently exist on ebay.

[Louis]

That was an interesting article in the NYT. Unfortunately, if E-Bay has to either check the validity of sellers’ claims, or be financially responsible for items that are not as advertised, that will have a massive effect on their bottom line, to the point where they probably won’t be able to make much money.

As the article says, this may well change E-bay as we know it. I have mixed feelings about this. My one and only E-bay experience (I was the buyer) ended badly and I have not purchased anything since. On the other hand, lots of folks on this forum have had a number of good experiences. I don’t know how you fix the system, but as currently implemented the “feedback” mechanism is not sufficient and easily circumvented.

Louis

Edit: I should also add that what really soured me on E-bay is that I sent them a number of messages asking for help in resolving my situation and not once did they reply. That’s a bad way to treat your customers.

[David Kirk]

While I sympathize in a big way with folks that get ripped off I think it's unrealistic to think that eBay could be held responsible for fraudulent transactions. With the millions of items sold with values from 10 cents to real estate valued in the millions it would be near impossible to check on every item and every seller. If there were some way to do it it certainly would be expensive.

This additional cost would of course get passed on to both the sellers and buyers and I feel that the cost might be so high as to make eBay go under.

I can tell you I've bought and sold many things on eBay........everthing from cars to little $5 items and I've never been ripped off. I personally have had 75 postive transactions (100% positive feedback) with no trouble at all. I really think it comes down to the two old sayings -

1) Buyer beware.

2) If it seems to good to be true it probably is.

I ALWAYS look at the sellers rating before bidding. I never bid on an item listed by a seller with a poor rating. If they have a very low number of transactions I'm also very careful. It may be that they are new which is fine. It might also be that they racked up some bad feedback so they started a new account. If buying from a seller with few transactions I always ask to talk with them on the phone. This will almost always scare them away.

I feel that eBay provides a quality service and will continue to use them.

Dave

[SoCalSteve]

While I sympathize in a big way with folks that get ripped off I think it's unrealistic to think that eBay could be held responsible for fraudulent transactions. With the millions of items sold with values from 10 cents to real estate valued in the millions it would be near impossible to check on every item and every seller. If there were some way to do it it certainly would be expensive.

This additional cost would of course get passed on to both the sellers and buyers and I feel that the cost might be so high as to make eBay go under.

I can tell you I've bought and sold many things on eBay........everthing from cars to little $5 items and I've never been ripped off. I personally have had 75 postive transactions (100% positive feedback) with no trouble at all. I really think it comes down to the two old sayings -

1) Buyer beware.

2) If it seems to good to be true it probably is.

I ALWAYS look at the sellers rating before bidding. I never bid on an item listed by a seller with a poor rating. If they have a very low number of transactions I'm also very careful. It may be that they are new which is fine. It might also be that they racked up some bad feedback so they started a new account. If buying from a seller with few transactions I always ask to talk with them on the phone. This will almost always scare them away.

I feel that eBay provides a quality service and will continue to use them.

Dave

I second Dave's experiences. With close to 400 positive experiences on ebay as both a buyer and seller, I feel it is a great community with very few bad seeds....and, you know what they say about a few bad seeds spoiling the...

Just one mans humble opinion.

Cheers,

Steve

[aminadab]

I think this will come down to whether or not the courts want to expand the term "possesion," which is now limited to its physical connotations, to include a more "virtual" meaning in its legal use. This case should be interesting.

Has there been a lot of fraud on the bike market? I'm also a drummer and buy used/vintage cymbals online. There's an online community of cymbal lovers (cymbalholics.com, yes, it's a real site!) who help each other out in determining fakes, mismarks, condition, value, etc.

[dave thompson]

As a long time EBayer, I agree with Dave. While Ebay has to makes changes to become more modern and in tune with what the realities of the marketplace are, it is merely a venue for buyers and sellers to get together. Asking EBay to be responsible for seller (or buyer) fraud is like asking the site holder of a flea market be responsible for the sellers that rent space there. I don't think it can, or should be done. The old saw of caveat emptor holds particularly true of Ebay because you can't talk face-to-face with the seller while you examine his items.

I've had over 280 transactions on EBay and only twice have I been disappointed with the items I purchased. In both cases a reasonable agreement was reached with the sellers that made me happy with the purchases. Both, by the way, were bicycles.

[93legendti]

Some of you may recall a feisty exchange about the role E-Bay plays in the economics of theft. It seems that bikes are not the only problem. Tiffany's is sueing the online operation for their role in fraudulent/counterfeit sales of branded products. If successful, the courts could hold E-Bay responsible for the representations made by their sellers. In addition, the practice of making fees for dubious transactions may be rejected. The case is current. Today's NY Times (2/29/06) has the coverage.

eBay is really no different than your local paper's classifieds which help you sell things for a fee. (I don't read or cite the NY Times as an authority on anything so I can't comment on the article.) It is one thing to sue, it is another to win. It is also one thing to hold a seller liable for intentional acts and another thing to hold the seller liable based upon strict liability for any sale of any stolen good. Pawn shops are typically liable for selling stolen goods, because if a seller of a widget, say a diamond ring valued at $10,000, brings it into a pawn store and asks for $500 or so in cash the store should be tipped off, as well as the store has access to local info re: stolen goods. Given eBay's international scope and the fact the beginning prices are set by the seller and the winning bids are set by the market, absent actual intent/knowledge (or reckless disregard of the truth) by eBay, this suit should fail.

Given recent collusion suits involving Southbey's and other auction houses, anything is possible vis-a-vis eBay, oir any 3rd party seller.

That being said I have over 500 transaction on eBay and over 1000 transactions on amazon, with maybe 4 problems--odds I'll take anyday. But I do not buy jewelry online.

[keno]

relating to online auctions is at http://gsulaw.gsu.edu/lawand/papers/fa01/headley_feanny/. That the NYT reporter failed to make any mention of applicable law or legal precedent is either sloppy reporting or intentional. Being suspicious of most of what I read these days and the fact that the Gray Lady, and the reporter (perhaps a modest bauble at a special price here), is virtually down the block from Tiffanys and about 3,000 miles from ebay's home, I wonder.

Anyhow, having read the law article, it appears to me that Tiffanys has a rough legal row to hoe. At a minimum, this litigation will take years, so the danger to those of us who use and have had success with ebay is not imminent. I would not be surprised to see in the future ebay put a "surgeon general" type warning in each listing to the effect that ebay makes no representation as to the authenticity or existence of the item listed and blah, blah, blah and watchit. I'm guessing that such a disclaimer is somewhere on their site, but not in your face.

I read recently that the PBS show, Antiques Roadshow, had some of its own scandals relating to experts who were simply lying about an item, either in cahoots with the owner by inflating its value, or with a potential buyer by deflating its value, as well as having known fakes knowingly presented as genuine.

Incidentally, Sandy, how much did you get for the Brooklyn Bridge on ebay? Myself, I thought the gold brick went way too cheap.

While not at an auction, I did find an impressive Manet on Craig's List.

keno

[shaq-d]

tiffany's will be as successful as the RIAA against napster, bittorrent, and all the other file sharing thingies out there... which is nada. last i checked record sales were down despite the RIAA's "successes". add ni the fact that ebay represents a big way to make money for lots of people, and it follows that no american judge is ever gonna "say no to ebay".

sd

[e-RICHIE]

can i get anything if i sue about this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Richard-Sachs-Crankset-BB-for-Mountain-Bike_W0QQitemZ7214384979QQcategoryZ56193QQssPageNa meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
my self-esteem took a hit when i saw
my name and "crank" used together.
you have an opinion on this? let 'em
hear ya' back in the cheap seats.

[11.4]

Be happy you were just cranky (and a BB, though I'm not sure which attribute that might apply to) or, in another auction, freewheeling. How about this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warning-Beware-of-Richard-FUN-NAME-DECAL_W0QQitemZ5647642493QQcategoryZ19257QQssPageN ameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[e-RICHIE]

Be happy you were just cranky (and a BB, though I'm not sure which attribute that might apply to) or, in another auction, freewheeling. How about this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Warning-Beware-of-Richard-FUN-NAME-DECAL_W0QQitemZ5647642493QQcategoryZ19257QQssPageN ameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



10-4 11.4

[Serpico]

...

[11.4]

Apologies for foisting this thread, but don't y'all remember when someone sold cut-off sections of a Richard Sachs frame on eBay (and for a good price too, I believe)? If e-R is worried about a crankset, how about listing yourself on eBay -- one framebuilder is all yours for all time? We're all curious to know what you'd fetch.

[e-RICHIE]

Apologies for foisting this thread, but don't y'all remember when someone sold cut-off sections of a Richard Sachs frame on eBay (and for a good price too, I believe)?


atmo i was the seller of those parts.

[DfCas]

I was in my LBS yesterday,which is also an outdoor shop who sells North Face stuff.A guy had a NF coat he bought on Ebay that he suspected was counterfeit.They compared it to the one in the store and it was obviously a fake-the material,lining,and sewing were slighly different.He got suspicious because the zipper broke the first time he used it.LBS price-$279,ebay price was $165.

[11.4]

I didn't remember the seller, so ... wow! So how much did you get?

[loctite]

While I sympathize in a big way with folks that get ripped off I think it's unrealistic to think that eBay could be held responsible for fraudulent transactions. With the millions of items sold with values from 10 cents to real estate valued in the millions it would be near impossible to check on every item and every seller. If there were some way to do it it certainly would be expensive.

This additional cost would of course get passed on to both the sellers and buyers and I feel that the cost might be so high as to make eBay go under.

I can tell you I've bought and sold many things on eBay........everthing from cars to little $5 items and I've never been ripped off. I personally have had 75 postive transactions (100% positive feedback) with no trouble at all. I really think it comes down to the two old sayings -

1) Buyer beware.

2) If it seems to good to be true it probably is.

I ALWAYS look at the sellers rating before bidding. I never bid on an item listed by a seller with a poor rating. If they have a very low number of transactions I'm also very careful. It may be that they are new which is fine. It might also be that they racked up some bad feedback so they started a new account. If buying from a seller with few transactions I always ask to talk with them on the phone. This will almost always scare them away.

I feel that eBay provides a quality service and will continue to use them.

Dave

What about the recent case of two Colorado shop employees stealing $400,000 worth of stock from the store and selling it on eBay? Would it be so hard to red flag that account and spend 5 minutes finding out if the sellers were a ligit business? Instead ebay was content to quietly collect the selling fees and do nothing about the fact that they were aiding thieves. A large percentage of goods sold on ebay are either stollen or obtained illegally in some way, EBAY KNOWS THIS and the continue to do nothing about it. IMO ebay is a cest pool of bottom feeders and you should all think long and hard about what you are supporting. You feel ebay provides a quality service, but what about your LBS? Are they completely useless or do you go to ebay for technical support advice and service as well?

[11.4]

Hey, y'all. one uses eBay just like one does a newspaper classified, or Craigslist, or flea markets, or consignment houses, or auction houses, or an index card on the wall at your local bike shop. There are many precedents for a communications medium not being responsible for the ads carried on it (how many TV networks got sued for cigarette ads, for example), so the Tiffany and related suits aren't likely to go anywhere. Even when Sotheby's or Christie's ends up selling an artwork later identified as a fraud, they only have to return the premium (the sales commission paid by the buyer to the auction house), and on eBay that commission is paid by the seller. Ebay's legal language is clear and they aren't being paid to assume a risk.

Bottom line, if you don't like eBay or don't trust it, then don't use it. No one needs you to try to tell me not to use it, or to make it harder for me to do so. I'm a grown up boy and I only bid on stuff I know and understand, and then only from credible sellers.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . for all the reasons already listed. They are renting online space to you to conduct your auction, just as if you were renting a booth in a physical flea market . . . AND there are widely available ways to protect yourself, whether through protections offered by your credit card or by buying through PayPal. But Captain Kirk said it best. Caveat Emptor and if it looks too good to be true, then it probably is.

Forcing eBay to require sellers to provide provenance for all items sold, AND being responsible for the reliabilitiy of that provenance, would certainly force eBay out of business. For that matter, it would force every other online auction site out of business, too. Think for a moment about whatever pile of stuff you may have in the basement that you are planning to or have already sold on eBay. Now how many of those things do you still have original receipts for? Right--not to d@mn many . . .

That being said, there must be SOME sort of way to improve the reliability of the feedback system that eBay could implement. But for the most part it works very well.

BTW, Keno, you can find a work of art by Manet on this forum almost any day. He's posted many of his photos!

And also BTW, I wonder how much richie could get on eBay for his toenail clippings or a lock of his hair? He DOES have some of that left, right? :rolleyes:

And courtesy of Serpico, I'm now going to buy ALL my jewelry at "Beemanjewelers.com," even though I'm still jealous they stole the name before I could get it! ;)

BumbleBeeDave

[Brons2]

A large percentage of goods sold on ebay are either stollen or obtained illegally in some way, EBAY KNOWS THIS and the continue to do nothing about it.

You have no proof of this, so it's really just rank speculation.

[SoCalSteve]

What about the recent case of two Colorado shop employees stealing $400,000 worth of stock from the store and selling it on eBay? Would it be so hard to red flag that account and spend 5 minutes finding out if the sellers were a ligit business? Instead ebay was content to quietly collect the selling fees and do nothing about the fact that they were aiding thieves. A large percentage of goods sold on ebay are either stollen or obtained illegally in some way, EBAY KNOWS THIS and the continue to do nothing about it. IMO ebay is a cest pool of bottom feeders and you should all think long and hard about what you are supporting. You feel ebay provides a quality service, but what about your LBS? Are they completely useless or do you go to ebay for technical support advice and service as well?

I think my LBS is a completely useless, expensive and offer very little technical knowledge. I do my research on this forum and many other places on the Internet. And then I buy most of my bike gear from ebay or other places on the internet.....btw, my LBS is the largest chain (independently owned) bike stores in Los Angeles...Its quite a joke that they charge the prices they do and offer such horrible service. And, all their stores are the same.

As for ebay being a place of bottom feeders.....Wow! Thats an incredible way to explain a business model that is so HUGELY successful. :crap:

Have fun paying retail or more at your LBS....Yes, they often mark prices up for more than the MSRP....

Steve

[loctite]

What about the recent case of two Colorado shop employees stealing $400,000 worth of stock from the store and selling it on eBay? Would it be so hard to red flag that account and spend 5 minutes finding out if the sellers were a ligit business? Instead ebay was content to quietly collect the selling fees and do nothing about the fact that they were aiding thieves. A large percentage of goods sold on ebay are either stollen or obtained illegally in some way, EBAY KNOWS THIS and the continue to do nothing about it. IMO ebay is a cest pool of bottom feeders and you should all think long and hard about what you are supporting. You feel ebay provides a quality service, but what about your LBS? Are they completely useless or do you go to ebay for technical support advice and service as well?

I think my LBS is a completely useless, expensive and offer very little technical knowledge. I do my research on this forum and many other places on the Internet. And then I buy most of my bike gear from ebay or other places on the internet.....btw, my LBS is the largest chain (independently owned) bike stores in Los Angeles...Its quite a joke that they charge the prices they do and offer such horrible service. And, all their stores are the same.

As for ebay being a place of bottom feeders.....Wow! Thats an incredible way to explain a business model that is so HUGELY successful. :crap:

Have fun paying retail or more at your LBS....Yes, they often mark prices up for more than the MSRP....

Steve

Steve,

You need to find a new LBS, if they are that bad and mark up prices above MSRP they arent much better than ebay. The majority of cyclist NEED bike shops for one thing or another and ebay is killing shops, period. Oh a good luck getting a warranty on anything you buy on ebay, and i hope you can sleep at night knowing you may have purchased stolen goods.

[loctite]

You have no proof of this, so it's really just rank speculation.


I do in fact have proof of this, i have friends that work for manufactures and distributers.

Products that are banned from ebay sales by the manufacturer and still are showing up there are not being sold by AUTHORIZED DEALERS. If they were the dealer would loose the line. Instead they are either stolen or obtained illeagally. A common scam is for someone to pose as a distributor of some other small country and purchase tons of product for distribution to SHOPS in said country. Instead, they end up on ebay here. THIS IS ILLEGAL, and these products carry no warranty and are essentialy stolen.

This has been done with:

Shimano
Campy
Mavic
King
CycleOps
Easton
Sidi
Speedplay

and more.

Manufactures and suppliers have CONSTANTLY complained to ebay about this and receive no help from ebay. Therefore ebay KNOWINGLY AIDS CRIMINALS. The suit will hold up in my opinion, at least im cheering for the plantiff!

[nick0137]

EBay is like any ancient English common law market. There's good and bad traders and good and bad items for sale/auction. But it exists and it exists because (like all markets) there is a demand for it - I was going to say a "need" for it but that would be going too far.

EBay here in the UK is much smaller (particularly for bike stuff) and much more personable - but that's because of our much smaller geography: there really aren't many places where (if I really was concerned about a seller or buyer) I couldn't agree a physical pick up. Ebay in the US (this is my impression) is a victim of its own success in bringing together vast numbers of sellers and buyers over a vast geographical area. But, overall is it a good thing worth preserving despite its flaws? Course it is.

(BTW my view is not at all influenced by this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7214100432&sspagename=ADME:L:AAQ:UK:1 ) ;)

[e-RICHIE]

(BTW my view is not at all influenced by this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7214100432&sspagename=ADME:L:AAQ:UK:1 ) ;)


bloody 'ell, mate.
i had one like that stolen from here 12 days ago.

hey - i'm messin' with ya' atmo cheers. :beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

We have been through all this before and you have made the same accusation before. The sound of grinding axes is getting very loud . . .

BUT, I'll bite anyway! :rolleyes:

The question to eBay is probably (again) one of liability. I have no doubt they are trying to figure out ways to decrease fraud and problem auctions. It is in their best interest to do so. Then they can claim--rightfully--that they are making such an effort if they are sued. But their simple lack of total success in totally eliminating dishonest use of their auction forum does not make them a bunch of "bottom feeders." It simply means they are human and still working on it.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken--and I don't think I am on this one--you'd have to PROVE in court that they are KNOWINGLY aiding dishonest sellers, and I think you would have a VERY hard time doing that. The simple fact that dishonest sellers continue to crop up does not in itself prove your contention that they are knowingly aiding such people.

I'm also amazed and/or amused by people who love to sieze upon one glaring example of something to "prove" their claim that EVERYONE is doing it. Sure, the two LBS employees in CO who had this huge organized operation were dihonest guys. But that flies in the face of the reality that MILLIONS of people have (very likely) TENS of millions of successful and satisfactory sales on eBay every year. That's MILLIONS of good sales to ONE spectacular series of bad ones. Let's be conservative, though, and say there are a hundred-thousand fraudulant transactions on eBay each year. That is still a very small percentage of total sales and not a factor if you simply excercise DUE CARE as a customer. A hundred thousand is one percent of ten million. And that's pretty low.

Your claim that eBay is guilty of racketeering is simply without merit based on even the most cursory examination of the facts.

Unfortunately, though, the conclusion you are jumping to is getting more and more common as the Internet and other almost instantaneous communications methods bring everyone in the country into everyone else's back yard. Consider the current child-molester mania. The average town might see a couple of child molesters arrested every year, if that. But because there is almost certainly a child sex abuse arrest SOMEWHERE in the country every day and because word of something so vile spreads so far so fast via the mass media and Internet, we hear about it from SOMEWHERE every day and--Bingo!--all of a sudden people are seeing molesters behind every tree just waiting to snatch their children. It just AIN'T happening like that in the real world of your town, but that doesn't dissuade people from believing what they know MUST be true.

eBay is not perfect, but it's a great system as is and offers a great deal.

BBD

[e-RICHIE]

in short...
why should ebay get blasphemed; it's no
different than online classifieds elsewhere
wrt the fact that it simply presents the goods.
it's similar to craigslist, rbm, campyonly, and
maybe even here - only bigger.

[nick0137]

Stolen? Another of the evil effects of Ebay - transatlantic steal-my-size-to-order cross bikes. :)

[loctite]

This is the first time i have participated in an ebay thread and so strongly expressed my views, it must be someone else that feels as the same as i do.

Anyway, you both have very good points and i respect your opinions. I agree that its the criminals that are mostly at fault not the marketplace. But ebay seems to be the place the "bottom feeders" flock to. Even though it is a small percentage of bad sellers like you say, it is still happening and it is still giving a bad name to all of the good things nabout ebay. But the fact remains that these things do happen on eBay and they DO know about it. If there is a drug problem in a particular neighborhood the cops crack down on that neighborhood. Its not the nieghborhoods fault is it? No but the problem must be cleaned up, if it is then you once again have a nice neighborhood/marketplace. The fact of the matter remains that it would not only cost eBay tons of money, but they would loose tons of money if they were to crack down on illegal sales. It seems to me they are not willing to make the investment to "claen up the neighborhood"

Disclaimer:

I am not an attorney or law expert and my views are extremely biased because ebay sales make it harder for me to put food on the table for my family.

[keno]

I didn't understand your last comment "...my views are extremely biased because ebay sales make it harder for me to put food on the table for my family." What do you mean? I assume that sales on ebaby are taking business from you in some way.

keno

[e-RICHIE]

This is the first time i have participated in an ebay thread and so strongly expressed my views, it must be someone else that feels as the same as i do.

Anyway, you both have very good points and i respect your opinions. I agree that its the criminals that are mostly at fault not the marketplace. But ebay seems to be the place the "bottom feeders" flock to. Even though it is a small percentage of bad sellers like you say, it is still happening and it is still giving a bad name to all of the good things nabout ebay. But the fact remains that these things do happen on eBay and they DO know about it. If there is a drug problem in a particular neighborhood the cops crack down on that neighborhood. Its not the nieghborhoods fault is it? No but the problem must be cleaned up, if it is then you once again have a nice neighborhood/marketplace. The fact of the matter remains that it would not only cost eBay tons of money, but they would loose tons of money if they were to crack down on illegal sales. It seems to me they are not willing to make the investment to "claen up the neighborhood"

Disclaimer:

I am not an attorney or law expert and my views are extremely biased because ebay sales make it harder for me to put food on the table for my family.


if you're worried about a criminal element - ebay didn't
concieve it. if ebay does what you suggest, that element
will either adapt, or find the next canal street atmo cheers. :beer:

[e-RICHIE]

I didn't understand your last comment "...my views are extremely biased because ebay sales make it harder for me to put food on the table for my family." What do you mean? I assume that sales on ebaby are taking business from you in some way.

keno


keno-issimo
i feel like the father in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".
i have a solution:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1951-Better-Foods-for-Less-Money-Food-Buying_W0QQitemZ7180788620QQcategoryZ1321QQssPageN ameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[e-RICHIE]

keno-issimo
i feel like the father in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".
i have a solution:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1951-Better-Foods-for-Less-Money-Food-Buying_W0QQitemZ7180788620QQcategoryZ1321QQssPageN ameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


potm atmo imho

[keno]

I was take by http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7180795236&ssPageName=MERC_VI_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT on that ad. How the hell did that happen?

keno

[JohnS]

I do in fact have proof of this, i have friends that work for manufactures and distributers.

Products that are banned from ebay sales by the manufacturer and still are showing up there are not being sold by AUTHORIZED DEALERS. If they were the dealer would loose the line. Instead they are either stolen or obtained illeagally. A common scam is for someone to pose as a distributor of some other small country and purchase tons of product for distribution to SHOPS in said country. Instead, they end up on ebay here. THIS IS ILLEGAL, and these products carry no warranty and are essentialy stolen.

This has been done with:

Shimano
Campy
Mavic
King
CycleOps
Easton
Sidi
Speedplay

and more.

Manufactures and suppliers have CONSTANTLY complained to ebay about this and receive no help from ebay. Therefore ebay KNOWINGLY AIDS CRIMINALS. The suit will hold up in my opinion, at least im cheering for the plantiff!
These are all large corporations with considerable resources. They could check out the legitimacy of these "distributors". Shouldn't they be held to the same level of accountability as eBay? Obviously, they are just selling wares to anyone who has the money. I can see it now. Someone calls up Shimano and says " I want to be the distributor for Nepal and want to buy 500 DuraAce gruppos and I have very good credit". Shimano's response would be "Sure, we'll send them out as soon as your check clears the bank, no problem!"

[Mud]

on ebay as red-ellsworth and have become more wary as the years have gone by. I have only been stuck once (Oakley Glasses) but have been surprised in the amount of new Shimano stuff available after Shimano restricted on line dealers.

I am sure that much stuff comes in as "grey market" with no warranty as Loctite stated. There is also truth to what Loctite says in that I get a very good break on bikes stuff for myself from the LBS where I work PT in the warm weather, but there are many times where an Internet search allows me to purchace stuff at considerably less that my deal at the store.

Now the store is not screwing me, just the opposite. But there have been some serious words with reps about what is going on. Even some of the best known online shops which have carried Colnago did so as "grey market" companies.

I love ebay as a place to get rid of bike parts that I know longer need. The last sales paid for our new tubular wheels. I would hate to see it go away. But I would not doubt that there is more truth than not in what Loctite has said and more reason to practice caveat emptor.

[loctite]

I didn't understand your last comment "...my views are extremely biased because ebay sales make it harder for me to put food on the table for my family." What do you mean? I assume that sales on ebaby are taking business from you in some way.

keno

Since i am in the bike industry, yes eBay takes sales away from us. Does it REALLY take food off the table, no we do quite well and i make a good living. But what sucks is when i spend 45mins on the phone giving advice to someone on product X only to have them hang up and buy siad product on ebay brand new for %60 below the MSRP. See my point? Ebay is training consumers to destroy retailers.

I am sure allot of people cant wait untill everything we own comes from one giant MEGA online store. Personally i refuse to renounce my freedom of choice!

[loctite]

These are all large corporations with considerable resources. They could check out the legitimacy of these "distributors". Shouldn't they be held to the same level of accountability as eBay? Obviously, they are just selling wares to anyone who has the money. I can see it now. Someone calls up Shimano and says " I want to be the distributor for Nepal and want to buy 500 DuraAce gruppos and I have very good credit". Shimano's response would be "Sure, we'll send them out as soon as your check clears the bank, no problem!"

True, allot of this is the suppliers and thier lack of control. Look at Trek for example, ever wonder why you wont see a NEW Trek product on ebay? Because they have a entire department dedicated to policing unautorized online sales. Shimano is headed in the right direction. But your scenario is exactly how it happens, but its hard to police. For example the dude in Nepal is a real distributor, he just has a brother in New York. "Hey bro i cand ship you this crate of bike parts and we can make a killing on eBay!"

[SoCalSteve]

[QUOTE=SoCalSteve]

Steve,

You need to find a new LBS, if they are that bad and mark up prices above MSRP they arent much better than ebay. The majority of cyclist NEED bike shops for one thing or another and ebay is killing shops, period. Oh a good luck getting a warranty on anything you buy on ebay, and i hope you can sleep at night knowing you may have purchased stolen goods.

I have gotten warranty work done from parts I have bought off ebay. Even Shimano parts. They dont have serial numbers...The manufacturer has no idea where they were purchased.

As for sleeping at night, I have no problem with that either. I have never bought anything off of ebay that was stolen. I only deal with reputable dealers who have tons of positive feedback and a proven track record. I know who I am dealing with.

Ebay works, plain and simple. Just like anything else consumer-wise, you have to know what you are doing and who you are dealing with. Be informed!

Steve

[H.Frank Beshear]

My lbs has 2 labor rates. One rate for goods bought there and one rate for goods bought elsewhere. He got tired of people picking his brain and then buying online and bringing it in to him to install/fix. sort of evens out the difference, and its posted behind the work station in plain site. Frank

[BumbleBeeDave]

That sounds like a good solution, unless the "elsewhere" rate is so high it comes across as punitive. What's the difference in the rates?

BBD

[11.4]

Everyone,

Hasn't this thread become something of a flamer? No one's going to be convinced by anything here, and it doesn't do any justice to Serotta or their forum. Why don't we move on to more productive topics?

[Louis]

No one's going to be convinced by anything here?

I never knew that that was one of the criteria that determined whether or not we continued to post on a thread...

[gdw]

Loctite,

You seem to be unaware of or ignoring the fact that an awful lot of the sellers on Ebay are legimate bike shops. I've purchased a number of components from shops who are trying to clear out old or used inventory. One of the shops I've done business with is a local shop and the seller was the owner. He's no thief and Ebay allows him to bring in some needed cash during the slow winter months when retail sales are down. Is he a bottom feeder or an astute businessman adapting to a changing marketplace?

[loctite]

Loctite,

You seem to be unaware of or ignoring the fact that an awful lot of the sellers on Ebay are legimate bike shops. I've purchased a number of components from shops who are trying to clear out old or used inventory. One of the shops I've done business with is a local shop and the seller was the owner. He's no thief and Ebay allows him to bring in some needed cash during the slow winter months when retail sales are down. Is he a bottom feeder or an astute businessman adapting to a changing marketplace?

GDW,

Thank you for bringing out that point. In my ranting i failed to mention that there are legitamate sellers on ebay. To those doing things honestly by the book great job! I didnt mean to imply ALL ebay sellers are bottom feeders, sorry if i offended anyone.

[keno]

insofar as your point about someone being educated by you and then actually buying from ebay, do you make the same point about such a person who then buys online from a recognized dealer, as well? I would assume so. Is your argument more of the type some raise when saying that Wal-Mart is ruining small local businesses? Incidentally, one of the strange occurences I have noticed in following items on ebay is the penchant for some people to pay more on ebay than they would in a conventional online shop. I do believe both that a retailer should get to know his customers for what they are and can simply and nicely spend less time with the scavengers, and that many good customers will be loyal to shops, although more expensive, who provide first rate service and choices.

I am, for the most part, an online or ebay buyer of bicycle-related items. (As to bikes, my Serottas came from Paul Levine, my Spectrum from Tom Kellogg, my Cannondale from a local LBS, and the track and fixie from ebay and rbr.) For the same reason that I don't have my mechanical work done by any LBS, I don't buy anything from them as, unfortunately, they aren't very good and they don't know what they are talking about in too many instances; their advice is worth little to me. It's like the tv commercial in which someone is asked if their stock broker is meeting their objectives, to which, in effect, is replied yes, to the extent that their objective is to sell me something. I will get information mostly from forum members or do my research at the Harris or Park sites, and I do buy from the latter two. And I travel an hour to have work I can't do myself done by a skilled mechanic who has nothing to sell me but his time and expertise.

For better or for worse, the internet has brough irreversible changes to all of our lives and our ability to adapt will determine how we make out. Business models come and go, even on the internet, and the retail bicycle industry is feeling the pressures. As in the Chinese curse, may you live in interesting times.

keno

[Grant McLean]

For better or for worse, the internet has brough irreversible changes to all of our lives and our ability to adapt will determine how we make out. Business models come and go, even on the internet, and the retail bicycle industry is feeling the pressures. As in the Chinese curse, may you live in interesting times.

keno

agreed.
There was a time when you could only price compare a couple of LBS prices
to decide how much something cost, and what was a good "deal". Now,
ebay has such wild price swings for the same item, all a customer has to
do is see something once for a crazy low price, and now they consider
that price the benchmark price for that item. MSRP is fiction.

Before eBay, how did we know how much something could be bought for
unless you saw it in a mail order catalog on clearance?
The 'game' of price hunting is as much of the part of shopping experience on eBay as using the item is.

-g

[keno]

price shopping has gotten even more interesting with some sites providing not only a price matching feature but also a "name your price", that is, make us an offer. Lickbike.com not only price matches but gives you 11% of their price less the better price as an additional discount.

We in the United States have, by and large, been trained with a department store mentality; the price on the tag is what you pay. In many places around the world price negotiation is the norm in many situations in which most of us would never even consider it as an option.

keno

[SoCalSteve]

price shopping has gotten even more interesting with some sites providing not only a price matching feature but also a "name your price", that is, make us an offer. Lickbike.com not only price matches but gives you 11% of their price less the better price as an additional discount.

We in the United States have, by and large, been trained with a department store mentality; the price on the tag is what you pay. In many places around the world price negotiation is the norm in many situations in which most of us would never even consider it as an option.
keno

I'm not buying that! How about 20% off and no tax?

Steve

[Louis]

Lickbike.com not only price matches but gives you 11% of their price less the better price as an additional discount.

Keno,

If you work out the economics of this sort of discount it is actually anti-competitive because it discourages the other guys (say Nashbar, or whatever) from lowering their prices, because presumably if the do, Lickton will automatically lower theirs. It would be a spiral down to the basement, and no retailer wants that, so they all sort of collude and keep the prices high, all the while claiming that they are giving you the lowest price possible, and would go even lower if they had to…

Louis

[Grant McLean]

Keno,

If you work out the economics of this sort of discount it is actually anti-competitive because it discourages the other guys (say Nashbar, or whatever) from lowering their prices, because presumably if the do, Lickton will automatically lower theirs. It would be a spiral down to the basement, and no retailer wants that, so they all sort of collude and keep the prices high, all the while claiming that they are giving you the lowest price possible, and would go even lower if they had to…

Louis

If they repeat it enough... "always low prices, always" you start to believe it... even if it's not true. Perception is 9/10 of the law.

-g

[keno]

I don't think that they are that smart, and even if they are they haven't read the book or care for its contents. Also, their business models may not be the same as ones who advertise a Lickton's discount. (As an example, two legitimate firms showed the same seatpost, one for $50.99 and the other for $69.99, Lickton's in this case. Incidentally, every time, save one, I've asked him for a match, he pauses for a moment and gives it to me and the discount. I believe he has a computer screen which tells him his cost and if the numbers are at all close, he goes with his gut. Only once did he call the retailer who had it lower to see if it was in stock, etc.) These "arbitrages" are all over the place if you are willing to look for them. At the end of the day, a retailer knows his fixed costs, variable costs, blah, blah, blah, and how much he wants to bring to the bottom line. There are always retailers who have figured out how to lower costs and are willing to work for less and may also buy smarter or work deals with the distributor or manufacturer).

Further, the price match less 11% of the difference keeps Lickton's in the game no matter what they show for a price, plus they get the not so price conscious buyer.

keno

[loctite]

I don't think that they are that smart, and even if they are they haven't read the book or care for its contents. Also, their business models may not be the same as ones who advertise a Lickton's discount. (As an example, two legitimate firms showed the same seatpost, one for $50.99 and the other for $69.99, Lickton's in this case. Incidentally, every time, save one, I've asked him for a match, he pauses for a moment and gives it to me and the discount. I believe he has a computer screen which tells him his cost and if the numbers are at all close, he goes with his gut. Only once did he call the retailer who had it lower to see if it was in stock, etc.) These "arbitrages" are all over the place if you are willing to look for them. At the end of the day, a retailer knows his fixed costs, variable costs, blah, blah, blah, and how much he wants to bring to the bottom line. There are always retailers who have figured out how to lower costs and are willing to work for less and may also buy smarter or work deals with the distributor or manufacturer).

Further, the price match less 11% of the difference keeps Lickton's in the game no matter what they show for a price, plus they get the not so price conscious buyer.

keno

It amazes mee how people will search for HOURS to save $10. How much is your TIME worth? I would rather be out riding.

[Brons2]

I do in fact have proof of this, i have friends that work for manufactures and distributers.

Products that are banned from ebay sales by the manufacturer and still are showing up there are not being sold by AUTHORIZED DEALERS. If they were the dealer would loose the line. Instead they are either stolen or obtained illeagally.

OK, so theft is illegal...but....

A common scam is for someone to pose as a distributor of some other small country and purchase tons of product for distribution to SHOPS in said country. Instead, they end up on ebay here. THIS IS ILLEGAL, and these products carry no warranty and are essentialy stolen.

Although the manufacturer may not like it, their sole remedy in this case will be limited to warranty revocation. Their policies of non-sale on ebay do not carry the weight of law. So long as applicable sales taxes are collected, the seller is not breaking the law. The seller may have duped the manufacturer, but too bad so sad.

This has been done with:

Shimano
Campy
Mavic
King
CycleOps
Easton
Sidi
Speedplay

and more.

Manufactures and suppliers have CONSTANTLY complained to ebay about this and receive no help from ebay. Therefore ebay KNOWINGLY AIDS CRIMINALS. The suit will hold up in my opinion, at least im cheering for the plantiff!

Fine. You stated originally that:

A large percentage of goods sold on ebay are either stollen or obtained illegally in some way

You have spoken to a single product category out of thousands that are sold on eBay. You don't have any metrics on who sells what on eBay, whatsoever. Statistics that eBay management certainly has. Therefore, you're really just pissing in the wind.

Furthermore, to claim that you have "friends" that work for manufacturers and distributors is weak. Why don't you present some actual metrics on this out of chain sales activity? You present no hard data to back up your claims and in addition the information is 2nd hand. Some credibility.

I have a Shimano Ultegra 12-27 casette new in the box that I was thinking of selling. Guess I better not, or the Shimano police might come after me! :rolleyes:

[SoCalSteve]

OK, so theft is illegal...but....



Although the manufacturer may not like it, their sole remedy in this case will be limited to warranty revocation. Their policies of non-sale on ebay do not carry the weight of law. So long as applicable sales taxes are collected, the seller is not breaking the law. The seller may have duped the manufacturer, but too bad so sad.



Fine. You stated originally that:



You have spoken to a single product category out of thousands that are sold on eBay. You don't have any metrics on who sells what on eBay, whatsoever. Statistics that eBay management certainly has. Therefore, you're really just pissing in the wind.

Furthermore, to claim that you have "friends" that work for manufacturers and distributors is weak. Why don't you present some actual metrics on this out of chain sales activity? You present no hard data to back up your claims and in addition the information is 2nd hand. Some credibility.

I have a Shimano Ultegra 12-27 casette new in the box that I was thinking of selling. Guess I better not, or the Shimano police might come after me! :rolleyes:

I'd be scared too!

So scared that I want to go out and buy more stock in ebay. I've already made a few Mevicei's off my ebay stock!

[keno]

It amazes mee how people will search for HOURS to save $10. How much is your TIME worth? I would rather be out riding.

For the time-pressed, you might try http://www.bestwebbuys.com/bikes/(about 30 seconds). A mere $10 saving would put another pound of rib eye steak on your families' dinner table. Incidentally, if your time is so valuable, why are you spending it on the forum?

keno

[loctite]

[QUOTE]QUOTE]OK, so theft is illegal...but....



Although the manufacturer may not like it, their sole remedy in this case will be limited to warranty revocation. Their policies of non-sale on ebay do not carry the weight of law. So long as applicable sales taxes are collected, the seller is not breaking the law. The seller may have duped the manufacturer, but too bad so sad.

Perhaps it is you who should know the facts before you post. When distributors and dealers become such the must sign a "dealer agreement" this agreement is a BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT, if that contract states how and where the product is to be distributed and the other party does not adhere to this, they are breaking the contract, that is BREAKING THE LAW.

Dont question my knowledge of the industry. I have been int he bicycle business for 13 years, and i know what goes on in the industry. For me to mention specific names or companies would be rude and disrecpectful. I can tell you to be on the watch for law suits from Shimano towards some large US dealers who have refeused to adhere to Shimanos guidelines.

:crap:

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . in here before. If you REALLY know the bike industry, then you also know that Shimano has been attempting to price fix through heavy handed tactics against "unapproved" dealers who sell through the Internet. In this case "unapproved" seems to mean they won't sell ONLY for Shimano's fixed prices, which have been hiked up quite a bit in the past year, in case you haven't noticed. Pretty convenient for Shimano, eh? Sounds kind of like Microsoft, eh? Sounds borderline illegal, eh?

What this would SEEM to mean to ME if I were a dealer would be that I buy stock from Shimano, it becomes "new old stock" at the end of this bike season, but if I've signed this agreement with Shimano I have no way to get rid of it through THE most efficient and effective way to do so--namely, the Internet. I can mark it down drastically in my own shop--where it STILL may sit for years. But I can't sell it on the Internet through places like eBay and MOVE IT OUT to make room for next year's stuff.

Is it any wonder bike stores sell stuff on eBay? What the h*ll do you think places like Performance do when they have 5000 Shimano derailleurs left that are two years old and they need to get rid of them? They get Shimano's "permission" to mark them down or they do what? Sell them to a stock liquidator who then puts them up on eBay?

Seems like it would be even worse for a small store that has no pull whatsoever with Shimano. Ask some other bike shop owners on the Forum how they handle this.

eBay serves a valuable function, no matter how big the chip on your shoulder about it is. Long live the free market . . .

BBD

[Brons2]

[QUOTE=Brons2]

Perhaps it is you who should know the facts before you post. When distributors and dealers become such the must sign a "dealer agreement" this agreement is a BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT, if that contract states how and where the product is to be distributed and the other party does not adhere to this, they are breaking the contract, that is BREAKING THE LAW.

Then it is a contract infringement lawsuit, not a criminal lawsuit.

Good luck having any success with that outside the US and EU. Since, you did mention previously in this thread that some distributors have signed on for a particular country and then sold parts on eBay.

Regardless of country, if the manufacturer cannot recover for contract infringement, then my initial impression is still correct, that their sole remedy will limited to warranty revocation.

Dont question my knowledge of the industry. I have been in the bicycle business for 13 years, and i know what goes on in the industry. For me to mention specific names or companies would be rude and disrecpectful. I can tell you to be on the watch for law suits from Shimano towards some large US dealers who have refeused to adhere to Shimanos guidelines.

:crap:

You may or may not have insider knowledge of the bike industry (I have no way of ascertaining the veracity of a random user posting on the Internet), but you seem to lack general knowledge of business principles and the courts.

Bottom line: You're still wrong. No criminal statutes have been broken, and nobody will go to jail over this. One caveat being parties who sold stolen parts on eBay, obviously they deserve to go to jail. I look forward to the results of the contract infringement lawsuits you mention.

Jumping up and down and throwing the words "BREAKING THE LAW" around in all caps doesn't make you right. It just makes you a bully. Unfortunately for you, I cannot be intimidated by your bluster. Your righteous indignation does not impress me. If you want to stop ranting and participate in a rational discussion, that would be great. Unfortunately so far you have resorted to SCREAMING and YELLING about it.

[Bradford]

When I was a brand manager, WalMart and K Mart (the Mart brothers, as we used to call them) routinely broke agreements, especially concerning the lowest advertised price allowed by contract.

What did we do? Nothing. Why? Because they were so big we couldnt afford to loose thier business, and they knew it. Brons2 is right, ignoring a contract is not a criminal issue and manufacturers often do nothing about it, or can't do anything about it.

Unless there is a regulatory issue around a product, like with cars, grey market product are not illegal. With cars, it is my understanding that you can have grey market cars brought into complience with US standards, which then makes them legal.

[loctite]

Im sorry if i have offended i in no way intended to do such. My rantings are my opinion only i agree, and i now little to nothing about the law. My opinion, strong as it may be, is one that is shared by just about all shop owners in this country. Ebay is really good for allot of things, like getting rid of old stock as has been mentioned. But, IMO the also contribute largley to improper practices. Sorry if my opinion is seen as extreme.

[e-RICHIE]

Im sorry if i have offended i in no way intended to do such. My rantings are my opinion only i agree, and i now little to nothing about the law. My opinion, strong as it may be, is one that is shared by just about all shop owners in this country. Ebay is really good for allot of things, like getting rid of old stock as has been mentioned. But, IMO the also contribute largley to improper practices. Sorry if my opinion is seen as extreme.


loctite-issimo
contrition rules yo.
here's a cyber reach-a-round.
atmo cheers. :beer:

[SoCalSteve]

Im sorry if i have offended i in no way intended to do such. My rantings are my opinion only i agree, and i now little to nothing about the law. My opinion, strong as it may be, is one that is shared by just about all shop owners in this country. Ebay is really good for allot of things, like getting rid of old stock as has been mentioned. But, IMO the also contribute largley to improper practices. Sorry if my opinion is seen as extreme.

And you know this how????

How many of the thousands upon thousands of bike shop owners across America have you personally spoken to?

I have spoken to many shop owners who say, just buy the frame and labor from me and get the rest of your components on the Internet (as they know that many consumers are savvy enough to know that they can do better through the Internet).

Contribute largely to improper practices. So, of the few MILLION ebay auctions going on right now, how many do you PERSONALLY know are doing "improper practice"? Have you checked each one?

Broad sweeping generalizations do not behoove anyone.

Thanks,

Steve

[mark]

Get real. How can anyone talk to every bike store or every dealer. That is a silly standard for establishing credibility. We all sample data. Fact is, an unspupervised auction system where the auctioner maked no representations about the sellers or mechandize will be abused by bad actors. E-Bay will have their hands full with this legal action as the courts in the USA respect copyrights and trademarks with some passion. I think that it is a good development.

[Brons2]

Im sorry if i have offended i in no way intended to do such. My rantings are my opinion only i agree, and i now little to nothing about the law. My opinion, strong as it may be, is one that is shared by just about all shop owners in this country. Ebay is really good for allot of things, like getting rid of old stock as has been mentioned. But, IMO the also contribute largley to improper practices. Sorry if my opinion is seen as extreme.

Nah I'm not offended, just want to get an accurate portrait.

I can appreciate the fact that honest shop owners are put in a pinch by other distributors selling items below agreed contractural prices on places like eBay. It's hard to compete with that, especially when the "cheaters" may have acquired said parts at some sort of volume discount. It is certainly an ethically questionable practice to sign a document saying you are going to do one thing and then do another.

OTOH, it's not going to be worth it in legal fees to go after these contract violations unless they are occuring on a large scale. For a shop that maybe sold 5 derailluers and 2 brifters below contracturally agreed pricing on eBay, it's proably not going to be worth the time for Shimano (or other OEM) to go after them. IMHO.

[Brons2]

Get real. How can anyone talk to every bike store or every dealer. That is a silly standard for establishing credibility. We all sample data. Fact is, an unspupervised auction system where the auctioner maked no representations about the sellers or mechandize will be abused by bad actors. E-Bay will have their hands full with this legal action as the courts in the USA respect copyrights and trademarks with some passion. I think that it is a good development.

Yes, when people are selling fake stuff on eBay like the NorthFace jacket in the initial posting, I hope they get the book thrown at them. That is fraud in it's purest form.

[JohnS]

Yes, when people are selling fake stuff on eBay like the NorthFace jacket in the initial posting, I hope they get the book thrown at them. That is fraud in it's purest form.
My wife had to take a TNF parka back to REI two years ago because it was leaking feathers the first day. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't one of their jackets. Their quality has gone down so far since they decided to be the Walmart of outdoors that we now stick to Mountain Hardwear, Marmot, Patagonia or ArcTeryx.