How do you assess framebuilder's fitting skills?

[roguedog]

Have been wondering this for a while as I read about all your new custom bikes.

Everyone goes gaga over welds and paint jobs.. but it seems putting a bike together is one thing but building a bike that fits and rides well is the key.

Even if a builder gets a set of numbers from a pro fit, they still have to take those numbers and translate them into tube selection and bike geo.

How do you assess a builder's ability to do that?

[CNY rider]

Great question. I'm looking forward to reading people's answers.
My most impressive experience was with Mike Barry, builder of Mariposa bicycles.
My Mariposa was my second custom. My first was a Serotta Legend and I had gone through the full fit process.
I met Mike at his shop and we talked bikes for a good hour. We had pretty much finalized what I was looking for and I realized he had not yet fit me.
I got out my Serotta fitting measurements and my Legend build sheet thinking he would be excited to have them.
He never glanced at them; never even touched them.
He looked me up and down, then pulled some antique contraption out of the corner and had me straddle it. It looked like something left over after a garage sale. I leaned forward to where the "bars" were and we were done.
Total time spent on fitting was about 90 seconds.

Bike fits perfectly.
Maybe it was the fact that he had been doing it for decades. Maybe it also helped that he and I are pretty much the same size. I don't know how else to explain it but the fit was and is still perfect.

[tigoat]

I believe that the best fitter in the world would be the rider himself or herself unless he or she is a newbie and has nothing to use as a baseline. Most of us riders with a few years of riding experience would know exactly what works and what we like best on our equipment. Fitting is such as subject matter that it is difficult gauge because there is no right or wrong way to do it. For this reason, I wouldn’t trust any builder to do any fitting remotely. The only way I see a pro fitting beneficial is a local builder who would spend time watching the rider to pedal, but even then all the inputs will have to come from rider personally before a pro can help. In another word, if you have a lot of riding experience under your belt, chances are you are already the best fitter in world for yourself without realizing it.

[ergott]

I tend to choose builders that have racers under their belt. Not for the knowledge of how to build a race bike, but to have the frame integrity to build a bike that is punished more than I will probably do. For touring bikes I would pick someone that has some rider testimonials that have done far more epic treks than I would ever do.

That list is quite full of qualified builders right there. Then you can narrow down the other things like style, design, material etc.

[fuzzalow]

Variables chasing variables if you are incorporating a pro fitter into the process because the fit & position numbers drive the end success of the project. And the skill level and expertise of those who perform bicycle fitting will be all over the map so there is no assurance that what the numbers they feed into a builder will be worth a ding. Garbage in, garbage out.

IMO it is an unrealistic expectation of a client that a builder solve their fit and position problems or maladies as a one of the benefits in buying a custom bike.

It is equally dubious that many a builder has floated the impression that they posses the skill to solve a client's discomfort with a bike by that builder's skill in sizing up the client for a custom frame. This is something maybe hinted at rather than outwardly said - holding out a vestige of hope for a solution and having the client fill in the blanks for the result that the client hopes will be.

A cyclist requires both 1) fit and 2) position to work correctly for that rider's unique solution. All the builder is responsible for is the part of this equation that pertains to accommodation of fit requirements within a range of dimensions so the demand for absolute sizing precision is neither crucial nor required.

The minimum a client requires of the builder is to construct a frame that can accommodate the range of adjustability needed by a rider to interface with the correct geometry of his contact points on the bike. This is much easier done if a rider knows his own good fit & position numbers which the builder can then use to work out frame dimensions. Barring that, sizing up the actual rider for his/her physiology should suffice (e.g. Old school methodology as practiced by Mr. Barry and Sr. Pegoretti). The nuances in tubing selection for ride quality are easily overlooked and unless the error is egregious the difference in feel will not be cause enough for a client to reject the commission. The qualities of the the frame with regards to structural integrity and true alignment are mandatory and are not aspects a client need assess when dealing with any legitimate builder.

[ergott]

Sorry I misread. I though you were asking about their building skills. Fit? I have no idea.

[FlashUNC]

It's really easy.

If you see a lot of happy people with that person's bike, then they're clearly doing something right.

I wouldn't overthink it too much.

[AngryScientist]

i think a good box to have checked is a builder who rides a lot him or herself. there is a lot of theoretical information out there about bike fit, but IMO nothing substitutes for saddle time to really understand how a bike is supposed to fit.

[xlbs]

was an amazing fitter, but he almost never said much of anything. I still see him occasionally in Toronto because he lives near some family members and we see him out and about there. Yes, he was fast but he just had that eye so he didn't need to spend lots of time...stories abound locally about his abilities for those who had the pleasure of working with him on anything to do with bicycles.

I'm looking at a frame he repaired for me over 20 years ago; he transformed it then, after it had been almost destoyed in a car/rider crash, it's still true and stable and beautiful, if a little worn from many happy miles of riding.

[eddief]

now I do mean a very limited size ballpark. with steerer length, stem rise and extension, saddle height, fore and aft positions, it has always been a dialing in process for me. Steve Rex got me in the ballpark really well, but I have been playing with fit for many years after my fit and frame built by Steve.

another interesting question is how does the fitter approach the process?

does he say "you should feel good in that position."

or does he ask "how do you feel in that position?"

It would be interesting to go to a fitter with all the gadgets and power meter, etc and have them say "this position is different than what feels good to you now, but I guarantee your riding will be way more enjoyable once you get used to this."

I might take em up on that guarantee.

[nooneline]

I would be interested in what and how a builder/fitter has studied. People who know a great deal about how the body works, biomechanically (in addition to deep bike and riding knowledge), could have great insight. For example, the stuff that Colby Pearce mentions about his work with Steve Hogg I find particularly interesting:

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=85903#.Utf2K_RDujY

A lot of people can set up a bike and have it be comfortable, but being able to optimize one's position on the bike, with consideration to how many moving parts interact, is another matter.

I've also enjoyed friends' comments about being fit by Dave Tiemeyer, who has not only done a lengthy and involved bike fit, but provided an indepth spreadsheet of all relevant dimensions for the users' later reference.

[mister]

your framebuilder only has to get in the correct range
coz you know
stem length is variable as is setback and saddle height

and besides that, if someone is having a frame made, they should know approximately what saddle height, setback and reach they will need. i'd be more worried about proper design than actual fit coming from the builder.

[Ahneida Ride]

Almost all of Kelly's clients are requested to have a professional fit.

Even though Kelly has drafted about 20,000 bikes and was a instructor
the Serotta fitting school. Kelly still wants #'s off a pro fit.

Smiley fit me on my Legend Ti in a few minutes.

Kelly was there and with paper in one hand and pencil in other
and turned Smiley's verbal commands into a permanent record.

Smiley and Kelly then had a brief chat just before the build started.

Result .... a perfect fitting Bedford ....

[parris]

I'm just curious are you looking to have a frame built? It seems like the fitting process vs translating the numbers in your original post are different questions. For the top tier builders hitting numbers provided to them is a pretty straight forward deal that they've all done many times over their careers. The fitting process isn't the rocket surgery that some in the industry would have us believe.

When Dave Kirk built my frame the hard numbers were arrived at pretty quickly. The things that took a bit longer were our talks about what I wanted out of the bike. It was a good and thought provoking process because it made me actually think critically about what was important in ride, fit, and handling.

[jmoore]

It's really easy.

If you see a lot of happy people with that person's bike, then they're clearly doing something right.

I wouldn't overthink it too much.

this

[majorpat]

When I got my custom, I wasn't able to get to the builder in person. He sent me a sheet that called for, I think, four measurements and I elected to send him a photo of me aboard my Cannondale. He did the rest, seems pretty good to me. He left enough fork steerer to move the stem up and down a bit and off I went.
Pat

[MattTuck]

I'll echo the comments above. There are basically 4 different skill sets we're dealing with here.

1. Finding the right fit for you (which results in basically 4 numbers, the x,y coordinates of the center of the saddle rails (or a fixed point on the saddle), and the bars, relative to the bottom bracket).

2. Translating those numbers into a frame design. Figuring out bottom bracket drop, tube selection, seat/head tube angles, fork rake, etc. to achieve the best riding bike possible.

3. Executing the build. Welds, fillets, paint, decals, etc.

4. Fine tuning the fit. In addition to micro modifications to the fit numbers in (1), Things like shims and saddle tilt.


If you want some fluent in all 4 of the steps, go to some one who can do it all. Dick Drummond, in Enfield, NH, is such a guy. He has the shop, can fit you, and can weld/paint the frame. Nose to tail service... or whatever they call it.

For many people, the connection with the builder's aesthetic, reputation or unique product will overwhelm the desire to have (1) and (4) done by the builder. They're happy to get a good fit locally and then have the builder handle 2 & 3 -- that is, after all, what they get paid for.

In my case, Dave Kirk sent me a multiple page questionnaire to get all sorts of information that he then used to do the design of the bike. I've been extremely happy with the results... except for now, when the bike sits in my home office waiting for warm weather.

[John H.]

Pretty much this.
But many builders are not actually experts in 1 and 4.
You need to know if your builder possesses 1-4 and if all 4 are important to you.
For riders that know their fit- 2 and 3 are most important.

I'll echo the comments above. There are basically 4 different skill sets we're dealing with here.

1. Finding the right fit for you (which results in basically 4 numbers, the x,y coordinates of the center of the saddle rails (or a fixed point on the saddle), and the bars, relative to the bottom bracket).

2. Translating those numbers into a frame design. Figuring out bottom bracket drop, tube selection, seat/head tube angles, fork rake, etc. to achieve the best riding bike possible.

3. Executing the build. Welds, fillets, paint, decals, etc.

4. Fine tuning the fit. In addition to micro modifications to the fit numbers in (1), Things like shims and saddle tilt.


If you want some fluent in all 4 of the steps, go to some one who can do it all. Dick Drummond, in Enfield, NH, is such a guy. He has the shop, can fit you, and can weld/paint the frame. Nose to tail service... or whatever they call it.

For many people, the connection with the builder's aesthetic, reputation or unique product will overwhelm the desire to have (1) and (4) done by the builder. They're happy to get a good fit locally and then have the builder handle 2 & 3 -- that is, after all, what they get paid for.

In my case, Dave Kirk sent me a multiple page questionnaire to get all sorts of information that he then used to do the design of the bike. I've been extremely happy with the results... except for now, when the bike sits in my home office waiting for warm weather.

[bking]

Seven: it was (is it still?) a 4 or 5 page questionnaire, followed by 30 mins on the phone. Purpose of the bike is a big thing to them. Fairly thorough.
Llewellyn: several phone calls. Some key body measurements. I remember this one the least.
Kirk: key measurements. A brief call about purpose. David also asked about the other bikes, sizes, fit, comfort and dimensions.
Vanilla: I went up to Portland and had Sacha fit me in his shop. Bring your shoes, shorts, saddle. Left there wringing wet. He'd have me spin for 10 mins, tweak something, another 10, another tweak.
Pegoretti: Send in three or four measurements, he'll send you a frame. No calls.

With each of them i let them build the bike from the information they asked or took from me, as in Sacha's case. Each is slightly different. Each fits well.
Interestingly, the bike that is most comfortable to ride, most comfortable for me to sit in, came from the guy who took the least from me. That said, it's not the bike I ride most. I like and ride everyone of them.
I have always gone to builders who've built a lot of bikes, fit a lot of people. these guys know about contact points and how to get them from the customer.
a good deal of the fitting is done after the frame arrives

[DRZRM]

I'm happy I was local to Mike Zanconato. I came in with the bike I was already riding (we'd talked on the phone already, and I think he had a build sheet for my road frame) and shorts and shoes. He watched me on it, took measurements from that frame, did some inseam and arm measurements, and we were done.

Turned out perfectly. I'd always rather be measured by the custom builder if possible.

[Bob Ross]

As long as we're sharing experiences/data points:

Carl Strong sent me a fairly detailed questionnaire that included requests for maybe half a dozen critical body measurements, a bunch of measurements from my current bike, lots of questions about What I Like/Would Change on my current bike, riding style, preferences, blah blah blah... then several long phone interviews to further refine intended use ...then he requested photos of me on the bike (on a trainer) in a variety of hand positions (tops, drops, hoods) ...and finally he asked for the measurements/sizing recomendations from my most recent professional fitting.

I think that last item was just to humor me. Because when I received the new custom Strong bike, none of the measurments even vaguely resembled those from my previous fitting! ...and yet the bike fit like a charm. Stunningly perfect execution of exactly what I wanted but what I doubt I could have articulated. Every time I get on that bike my first sensation is a very concious (and reassuring) "wow, everything is exactly where it should be."

Of course, I didn't know any of this would work out so successfully before dealing with Carl...so to answer OPs question, I assesed his fitting skills by reading about other end-users' experiences on internet forums such as this one. They all sounded as positive as the one I'm offering here.

[Charles M]

Your frame builder doesn't need fitting skills.


Lots of them have some skills, some are better than others but given the frame building business, a big chunk of people will never see their builder... And they shouldn't need to.


A great fitter will send full geometry to your frame builder.

Wise builders will sometimes question what they think is odd.


Nick Crumpton basically refused a build until he met the guy I was sending to him and once that happened, the frame was built to the odd dimensions required because that's how my buddy is built... Some builders will build anything without much question, some won't (without validation).


But at days end, there are lots of good fitters that don't build frames... And lots of great frame makers that are not totally into fitting to the degree that some exceptional (the guys that can address medical problems, crazy Physiology etc) fitters are.

That a builder builds "race bikes" is simply NOT in and of itself a good indicator of their fitting abilities...


Trying to have that all rolled into a builder that you can see and talk to is no place near a requirement to getting a good bike...


But all that said, if you want to know if your builder understands fitting, go ask him to fit you... Ride the position and answer the question for yourself.

[Peter B]

Your frame builder doesn't need fitting skills.


<snip>


A great fitter will send full geometry to your frame builder.

Wise builders will sometimes question what they think is odd.




If you go the fitter>builder route I'd suggest letting the fitter determine position and the builder determine geometry. The fitter may know where to place your contact points but a good builder will know how to put the wheels under that position to accomplish what you want from the bike.

[fuzzalow]

LOL. I mean this will all humor and respect but your post begs for some editing in order to resolve all the semantic ambiguities. After reading it I'm quite confused about as to who does what to whom.
Your frame builder doesn't need fitting skills.


Lots of them have some skills, some are better than others but given the frame building business, a big chunk of people will never see their builder... And they shouldn't need to.

"Fitting skills" from the builders standpoint are indeed necessary. That task is to translate the rider's physical dimensions & riding position, either by in person or by being given a spec sheet of measurements, into designing a frame to accommodate those rider dimensions. "Fitting skills" from a builders standpoint to mean fitting both as far as size (e.g. seattube & toptube lengths) and also as to the geometric shape allowed by the frame for the space that the rider's position will consume (e.g. seattube setback; headtube length). And after all that is done, the builder integrates those resultant client frame dimensions into a frame geometry that will deliver the desired handling characteristics of the frame. Heck of a task and sounds like it is not so easy to do.

As contrasted from "fitting skills" from a bicycle fitters standpoint which concerns helping a rider arrive at a posture and position that allows the rider to function correctly on a bicycle. How well and to what compromises to comfort and efficiency, if any, are subject to the skill of the bicycle fitting professional and the skill of rider.

A great fitter will send full geometry to your frame builder.

Wise builders will sometimes question what they think is odd.

Nick Crumpton basically refused a build until he met the guy I was sending to him and once that happened, the frame was built to the odd dimensions required because that's how my buddy is built... Some builders will build anything without much question, some won't (without validation).


I think what you mean by "full geometry" is from the standpoint of the bicycle fitting professional referring to the spec sheet that lays out the rider measurements and rider geometry. Certainly here that measurements can look weird and may need to be verified for special client needs whose numbers fall outside the norm.

I could not imagine a builder that would willingly reduce his role to that as likened to a steam pipefitter just bonding tubes together. And I could not imagine a bicycle fitter I'd trust my neck to with designing a bike.

But at days end, there are lots of good fitters that don't build frames... And lots of great frame makers that are not totally into fitting to the degree that some exceptional (the guys that can address medical problems, crazy Physiology etc) fitters are.

I dunno, I'm not in the industry like you are. I just don't see these two jobs, bicycle builder and bicycle fitter, as being two jobs that can be done justice with by one person. The hard skills of frame tubing geometries and fabrication are very different than the soft skills of body kinesthetics which are involved with athletic performance & physiology. Just two completely different skill sets and aptitudes. And the time requirement for deliverables in each profession is widely divergent. I don't believe a modern day total solution cross-linking these two professions is possible or even feasible.

That a builder builds "race bikes" is simply NOT in and of itself a good indicator of their fitting abilities...


Trying to have that all rolled into a builder that you can see and talk to is no place near a requirement to getting a good bike...


But all that said, if you want to know if your builder understands fitting, go ask him to fit you... Ride the position and answer the question for yourself.

Well, I don't think such a person exists, at least not today. Maybe in the nostalgia of halcyon days, I'd imagine Faliero Masi or Ugo DeRosa doing something like this but that would be a pleasant figment for what never was except in my reverie.

[Peter B]

At the end of the day 'fit' can be described by simply three points in space: your feet, a$$ and hands. Don't underestimate the importance of these nor the skill it takes to correctly arrive at them for any particular individual. But they are distinct from frame geometry, even though that is what ultimately accommodates the three points. The role of frame geometry is to locate the wheels under those three points so that the bicycle works with the intended components and rides properly for the owner's desired purpose.

Fitters do one, builders do the other. I suspect it is more commonly the builder who possesses both skills.

[weisan]

Roguedog-pal, I would check to verify if the frame builder has hit the magic 10,000 number.:p

Someone like Tom Kellogg who is as old and crusty as the mother-earth probably has, so I would go with him in a heartbeat. :hello:

Mike Barry-pal would meet this criteria as well.
http://alicehui.com/serotta/FLRambler06/2.jpg

[fourflys]

It's really easy.

If you see a lot of happy people with that person's bike, then they're clearly doing something right.

I wouldn't overthink it too much.

exactly… there is a reason I'm waiting a LOT of years to get a Sachs… I've never heard a negative comment about how a Richard Sachs fits/rides… also, my understanding is when Richard builds you a bike, he gets your dimensions and builds you the bike you need (not to puts words in eRichie's mouth, just what I've heard)… basically, I'm not paying a custom builder for his building skills… lots of people can lay down a beautiful weld… I'm paying a custom builder for the skill he or she has to take my body's dimensions and how I ride and translate that into the bike I want/need…

just my .02

[oldpotatoe]

Your frame builder doesn't need fitting skills.


Lots of them have some skills, some are better than others but given the frame building business, a big chunk of people will never see their builder... And they shouldn't need to.


A great fitter will send full geometry to your frame builder.

Wise builders will sometimes question what they think is odd.


Nick Crumpton basically refused a build until he met the guy I was sending to him and once that happened, the frame was built to the odd dimensions required because that's how my buddy is built... Some builders will build anything without much question, some won't (without validation).


But at days end, there are lots of good fitters that don't build frames... And lots of great frame makers that are not totally into fitting to the degree that some exceptional (the guys that can address medical problems, crazy Physiology etc) fitters are.

That a builder builds "race bikes" is simply NOT in and of itself a good indicator of their fitting abilities...


Trying to have that all rolled into a builder that you can see and talk to is no place near a requirement to getting a good bike...


But all that said, if you want to know if your builder understands fitting, go ask him to fit you... Ride the position and answer the question for yourself.

Glad somebody said it.

[Coluber42]

I think more specifically, you not only want to find someone who has lots of happy customers, but someone who has lots of happy customers who are like you and do the kind of riding that you want to do. Someone who is great at fitting racers and building race bikes might have a general idea of what the conventional wisdom is WRT touring bike geometry and fit, but that doesn't mean they'll do as good a job as someone who specializes in touring bikes and understands how the weight distribution of you plus the load you're carrying might affect how you feel on the bike even if the three basic contact points remain the same.

Everyone has their own ideas, biases, axes to grind, etc, and bike builders are no exception. For example, someone who has had good success solving certain kinds of problems with more laid-back seat tube angles and thinks that most people usually get fit with saddles too far forward is more likely to build you a bike with a more laid-back seat tube angle than someone who has had good success solving other kinds of problems with steeper angles. You are more likely to be happy with the result if you find a builder whose experience and philosophy jives with what kind of rider you are.