di2 wireless!!

[crownjewelwl]

now we're talking!!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/01/news/spotted-shimano-di2-wireless-transmitter_313589

[Kirk Pacenti]

now we're talking!!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/01/news/spotted-shimano-di2-wireless-transmitter_313589

This is what I have been waiting for. I have no problem with E-shifting, except for the wires.

[MattTuck]

A careful read will reveal that it is not wireless shifting, yet. But rather a wireless transmitter to send data such as rear gear selection and battery level to Shimano's own head unit.

[christian]

It's not wireless shifting protocols, it's communication to external devices (cyclocomputers) and potentially command-control of the system wirelessly.

BTW, I don't understand the objection to cables. Other than on a Slingshot, I fail to see the issue. If there's a downtube...

[FlashUNC]

As it looks to me, this is a wireless addition that makes the system more complicated with more wires going every which way on the bike. All just to talk to their head unit that no one will use. Flight Deck anyone?

If it's a first step, it ain't a good one.

[druptight]

As it looks to me, this is a wireless addition that makes the system more complicated with more wires going every which way on the bike. All just to talk to their head unit that no one will use. Flight Deck anyone?

If it's a first step, it ain't a good one.

Agreed. Add another wiring stop, with essentially no new functionality! This is wireless flight deck.

[crownjewelwl]

tip of the iceberg peeps

[MattTuck]

tip of the iceberg peeps

agreed. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=128548&highlight=stop+drilling+holes)

[thegunner]

^^if you can tell a head unit what gearing you're in, surely it's not too great a leap to reverse that and tell that derailleur to change the gearing :)

[Charles M]

It's actually wired - wireless flight deck.

The guys closest to Wireless are Tiso. And they're patent blocked currently.

[FlashUNC]

^^if you can tell a head unit what gearing you're in, surely it's not too great a leap to reverse that and tell that derailleur to change the gearing :)

But you're still running cables from the central battery to the FD/RD to power those gear changes.

Unless adding a battery onto every component is the right answer, and both companies who have developed this stuff seem to think otherwise currently.

This is Shimano's overwrought answer to a Garmin cadence sensor.

Flight Deck Part Deux.

[thirdgenbird]

BTW, I don't understand the objection to cables. Other than on a Slingshot, I fail to see the issue. If there's a downtube...

I agree, I would rather have wires and one battery vs several batteries and wireless. My current preferance is cables and no batteries.

The slingshot comment was great by the way :)

It's actually wired - wireless flight deck.

The guys closest to Wireless are Tiso. And they're patent blocked currently.

I wondered why the tiso project died. I did like the idea of selecting your cassette. c10, s10, c/s11, or tiso 12z

[echelon_john]

True wireless shifting will be a big deal. To riders/users and especially shops.

Can't be that far off.

[Kirk Pacenti]

True wireless shifting will be a big deal. To riders/users and especially shops.

Agreed.

And while there is nothing "wrong" with wires, I have a subjective preference for wireless products. Not having to accommodate wires would be motivation enough to move from cable shifting to e-shifting.

[madcow]

I can't speak for Campag or Sram and their future with wireless, but I can tell you that there is no mention of wireless shifting in the Shimano production schedule which covers 2 years down the road. Though there are some other exciting things in there.

[oldpotatoe]

Agreed.

And while there is nothing "wrong" with wires, I have a subjective preference for wireless products. Not having to accommodate wires would be motivation enough to move from cable shifting to e-shifting.

Trons to move derailleurs will always neccesitate a hard wire to a power source, IMHO. I doubt you'll see batteries in each der plus in each shifter..

[CDollarsign]

Its 2014. Why is bike tech so dated? There's no reason there couldn't be a central internal computer to manage and send shifting signals to each device.

That being said I will stick with my low tech cables setup.

[merckx]

It's 2014. So, what is wrong with this?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Trons to move derailleurs will always neccesitate a hard wire to a power source, IMHO. I doubt you'll see batteries in each der plus in each shifter..

One can dream. I not going to hold my breath, but I am not going electronic until I can get it the way I want it. Wasn't ZAP a truly wireless system? It's been so long, I can't remember...

[Kirk Pacenti]

It's 2014. So, what is wrong with this?

Looks almost perfect to me.

[thegunner]

But you're still running cables from the central battery to the FD/RD to power those gear changes.

Unless adding a battery onto every component is the right answer, and both companies who have developed this stuff seem to think otherwise currently.

This is Shimano's overwrought answer to a Garmin cadence sensor.

Flight Deck Part Deux.

metal oxide batteries - once they figure out the ability to recharge those, THAT would be a game changer. small footprint, high power.

[mcteague]

It's 2014. So, what is wrong with this?

Uhh, too small to fit me? Otherwise, just beautiful.

Tim

[FlashUNC]

One can dream. I not going to hold my breath, but I am not going electronic until I can get it the way I want it. Wasn't ZAP a truly wireless system? It's been so long, I can't remember...

Mektronic.

And it kinda sucked...

[Kirk Pacenti]

Mektronic.

And it kinda sucked...

I'd assume we've made some progress in the last 20 years or so...

[FlashUNC]

I hope so, because Mektronic was just eye crime.

http://www.roygardiner.com/bike05.jpg


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IeZnbgl7fkY/TsAi2RlmtwI/AAAAAAAACKU/SSzO5iFIGyw/s720/_DSC0091.JPG

[thirdgenbird]

It looks better than sram hydros and it might work about as well. Missed shifts beats no brakes.

[christian]

I could see that di2 wireless would be very useful on titanium Brompton uberfolders.

[sg8357]

How many batteries for wireless shifting ?
Front mech, rear mech, right shifter, left shifter.

The shimano wireless widget would be cool if you could
link it to your or your Director Sportifs smartphone.
No more slacking for the Schlecks, you can downshift
from the team car.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I can't speak for Campag or Sram and their future with wireless, but I can tell you that there is no mention of wireless shifting in the Shimano production schedule which covers 2 years down the road. Though there are some other exciting things in there.

If you are free to share, can you elaborate on some of those other exciting things?

[macaroon]

Its 2014. Why is bike tech so dated? There's no reason there couldn't be a central internal computer to manage and send shifting signals to each device.


Of course. But it doesnt make financial sense for the manufacturer. They bring out a wired system first which all of the "spendaholics" buy into. And then shortly after release the wireless system which makes them spend again.

[saab2000]

The battery will still be connected to the front and rear der but the shifters will be wireless with small batteries like those in your automobile keyless entry key fobs.

It will create a cleaner look and there is no real reason not to do it.

This is my prediction for this from both Shimano and Campagnolo.

[jpw]

The battery will still be connected to the front and rear der but the shifters will be wireless with small batteries like those in your automobile keyless entry key fobs.

It will create a cleaner look and there is no real reason not to do it.

This is my prediction for this from both Shimano and Campagnolo.

it would do very nicely for me, with an internal battery/ control unit in the seat tube.

[echelon_john]

That's my guess, too. And if you look at the charge interval for the current wired setup, there's a lot of flexibility in that interval. You could even have a 'hydra' charger that would plug in at the RD, FD and shifters, and maybe the interval is 40 hrs instead of hundreds or whatever they say now. Still plenty of juice for mortals to charge once a week and never run out.


The battery will still be connected to the front and rear der but the shifters will be wireless with small batteries like those in your automobile keyless entry key fobs.

It will create a cleaner look and there is no real reason not to do it.

This is my prediction for this from both Shimano and Campagnolo.

[Mark McM]

Its 2014. Why is bike tech so dated? There's no reason there couldn't be a central internal computer to manage and send shifting signals to each device.

All bicycle systems have worked this way for the last century. A central computer (the rider's brain) has sent shifting control signals to actuators (the rider's fingers), and the actuator relayed the signals to the derailleurs through a mechanical or electro-mechanical mechanism to the derailleurs.

Di2 and EPS do not fundamentally change shifting. The shifting control decisions are still made by the rider, and the mechanism that cause the shifting use the same mechanical configuration (dual spring pivot slant parallelogram derailleur moves the dual pulley jockey cage laterally, and the lateral displacement of the chain allows the sprocket tooth profiles to disengage from the previous sprocket and engage with the adjacent sprocket). The only difference is the actuation mechanism between the shifters and the derailleurs.

[Mark McM]

The battery will still be connected to the front and rear der but the shifters will be wireless with small batteries like those in your automobile keyless entry key fobs.

It will create a cleaner look and there is no real reason not to do it.

This is my prediction for this from both Shimano and Campagnolo.

This configuration makes a lot of sense to me, too. Interference between the shifters on different bikes should not be an issue - keyless entry fobs are highly secure (more secure than the physical keys themselves) so the derailleur unit won't react to shift signals from any shifters except the ones they've been paired to.

Many wireless cycle computer systems use wheel and/or cadence transmitters whose coin cell batteries can last a year or more. Speed & cadence sensors transmit data much more frequently than a shifter would, so the battery in a shifter could last for years. Even still, spare coin cells are light and will fit nicely inside the handlebar plugs, so a rider should never get stuck in the middle of a ride with a dead shifter battery.

[echelon_john]

I disagree. They CAN change shifting, and the riding experience overall, in several ways:
- Shift from wherever on the bars you want; not limited to one shifter
- Shift the front under load much more effectively than traditional setups by most accounts

The important difference from an engineering perspective isn't the actuation; it's the force needed for the execution of the shift. That's where the battery suck comes in, especially upshifting in the front where you need some decent force to make the shift happen under load. Actuation is a piece of cake compared to execution.



All bicycle systems have worked this way for the last century. A central computer (the rider's brain) has sent shifting control signals to actuators (the rider's fingers), and the actuator relayed the signals to the derailleurs through a mechanical or electro-mechanical mechanism to the derailleurs.

Di2 and EPS do not fundamentally change shifting. The shifting control decisions are still made by the rider, and the mechanism that cause the shifting use the same mechanical configuration (dual spring pivot slant parallelogram derailleur moves the dual pulley jockey cage laterally, and the lateral displacement of the chain allows the sprocket tooth profiles to disengage from the previous sprocket and engage with the adjacent sprocket). The only difference is the actuation mechanism between the shifters and the derailleurs.

[FlashUNC]

(dual spring pivot slant parallelogram derailleur moves the dual pulley jockey cage laterally, and the lateral displacement of the chain allows the sprocket tooth profiles to disengage from the previous sprocket and engage with the adjacent sprocket). The only difference is the actuation mechanism between the shifters and the derailleurs.

Again this comes up, and again this is wrong.

On the Campy side at least, the RD in the electronic system is fundamentally different than the mechanical one. It relies on a worm screw rather than spring tension.

http://eps.campagnolo.com/system/product_images/images/REeps_REAR_DER_motore11322065533.jpg

[Nebby]

Again this comes up, and again this is wrong.

On the Campy side at least, the RD in the electronic system is fundamentally different than the mechanical one. It relies on a worm screw rather than spring tension.

http://eps.campagnolo.com/system/product_images/images/REeps_REAR_DER_motore11322065533.jpg

It's the same on the Shimano side, all di2 units use a worm drive.

[Mark McM]

I disagree. They CAN change shifting, and the riding experience overall, in several ways:
- Shift from wherever on the bars you want; not limited to one shifter

Cable actuated shifters need not be limited to one shifter, either. Shimano has already made remote cable shifters for their MTB derailleur systems:

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Rare-Shimano-XTR-Rapidfire-Remote-SL-SS95-Right-Hand-8-Speed-Shifter-/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/6IgAAOxyVaBSztsq/%24_35.JPGhttp://happy-junk.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/_3c0/baku_junk/SL-SS95.jpg

- Shift the front under load much more effectively than traditional setups by most accounts

I've only used electronic shifting a little bit, and while it is a little more convenient to just push a button, I've never had any trouble shifting the front underload with a cable operated system, so this is no clear advantage for me, either.

The important difference from an engineering perspective isn't the actuation; it's the force needed for the execution of the shift. That's where the battery suck comes in, especially upshifting in the front where you need some decent force to make the shift happen under load. Actuation is a piece of cake compared to execution.

I can see how this could be an advantage for some people with reduced finger or hand function/strength, but I've got perfectly normal hands, and I find it much harder to push the pedals than to push the shift levers. Maybe the next innovation to make riding easier would be replacing the mechanical pedal drivetrain with an electronic drivetrain?

[Mark McM]

Again this comes up, and again this is wrong.

On the Campy side at least, the RD in the electronic system is fundamentally different than the mechanical one. It relies on a worm screw rather than spring tension.

http://eps.campagnolo.com/system/product_images/images/REeps_REAR_DER_motore11322065533.jpg

That's a variation in implementation, not a fundamental difference in operation. The worm screw is a linear actuator - just like the Bowden cable is a linear actuator. Both derailleurs use the same principal - a linear actuator operates a parallelogram to produce a lateral movement. If you really felt like it, you could operate the worm screw with a mechanical cable.

If Campagnolo decided to keep their entire EPS shifting system the same, but replace the worm screw motor with linear stepper motor, would you claim that it was fundamentally different system?

[Elefantino]

Maybe the next innovation to make riding easier would be replacing the mechanical pedal drivetrain with an electronic drivetrain?

Cancellara used that already. Won Paris-Roubaix with mech in his seatpost.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk

[FlashUNC]

That's a variation in implementation, not a fundamental difference in operation. The worm screw is a linear actuator - just like the Bowden cable is a linear actuator. Both derailleurs use the same principal - a linear actuator operates a parallelogram to produce a lateral movement. If you really felt like it, you could operate the worm screw with a mechanical cable.

If Campagnolo decided to keep their entire EPS shifting system the same, but replace the worm screw motor with linear stepper motor, would you claim that it was fundamentally different system?

Is a Tesla the same as a Corvette? They're both fairly technologically advanced vehicles, but I don't think anyone would say they're the same.

I think it's fair to say the electronic designs are an evolution of the existing mechanical one -- they use some of the same principles -- but the method of execution is notably different.

And to answer your question, I'd say the gap from the worm screw to the liner stepper motor is a closer one than relying on spring tension and an indexing at the lever to execute a shift in current generation mechanical systems. The jump to electronic was a fundamental change because it removed what's been used for the better part of a century to execute a shift (Campy's Paris-Roubaix and similar derailleur designs obviously excluded) in the traditional sense. Does it borrow from that lineage? Of course, in much the same way the Tesla derives elements that have been around since the Model T and earlier.

To ignore the guts and how it does what it does and say that doesn't matter is completely myopic imo.

[merckx]

Looks almost perfect to me.

If it was perfect is would insult Zeus.

[Mark McM]

Is a Tesla the same as a Corvette? They're both fairly technologically advanced vehicles, but I don't think anyone would say they're the same. [QUOTE]

The Tesla Roadster (the sports car version) is a lot more like the Corvette than the Corvette is like the Model T.

[QUOTE=FlashUNC;1483862]I think it's fair to say the electronic designs are an evolution of the existing mechanical one -- they use some of the same principles -- but the method of execution is notably different.

Oh? And what principle is different? They principles are all the same - even the principle of actuation, in which a linear actuator in the derailleur moves a fixed distance for every push of the control button. There is a difference in how this one principle is implemented, but the rest is exactly the same. Which makes this an evolution, not a revolution.

And to answer your question, I'd say the gap from the worm screw to the liner stepper motor is a closer one than relying on spring tension and an indexing at the lever to execute a shift in current generation mechanical systems.

Why do you believe there is such a large gap? If you unbolted the worm screw and pulled it out, and then threaded in a cable and house in its place, it would operate just the same. There is far more difference between a modern Campy cable actuated derailleur and the Campy Paris-Roubaix derailleur, than there is between the electric worm screw and the cable actuated derailleur.

To ignore the guts and how it does what it does and say that doesn't matter is completely myopic imo.

No, it is myopic to concentrate on only a small part of the system, and ignore the rest. If you replaced the operating levers of the Campy Paris-Roubaix derailleur with an electronic actuator, would it suddenly become a fabulous shifter? No, its performance would still be horrible compared to modern cable actuated systems. What makes modern indexed shifting systems so good is all the other design features that have been developed over the decades (dual spring pivot slant parallelogram, sprockets with shifting gates and ramps, chains with shaped and contoured side plates, chain lift pins on chainrings, etc.). Electronic shifting has not made fundamental difference in how indexing shifting works. It has only changed how the derailleurs are actuated. If you were truly a student of the bicycle drivetrain you'd know this.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Nothing more exciting than Internet engineers arguing the finest details. :rolleyes:

[soulspinner]

Agreed.

And while there is nothing "wrong" with wires, I have a subjective preference for wireless products. Not having to accommodate wires would be motivation enough to move from cable shifting to e-shifting.

This:cool:

[oldpotatoe]

Agreed.

And while there is nothing "wrong" with wires, I have a subjective preference for wireless products. Not having to accommodate wires would be motivation enough to move from cable shifting to e-shifting.

But needing to 'accommodate' putting the whatever all together, power it up, wait for the little green lights...then scratch one's head as one of the lights stay on red...I feel ''making it work'' is taken from me, lands in the hands of the designer, manufacturer, when you try to make wireless 'work'..I get this everytime I go to a certain Safeway and try to connect with their worthless wi-fi..and it never works..I would rather have E-Shift wires..plus, an outside battery so once again, people can see how cool I am....

[Kirk Pacenti]

But needing to 'accommodate' putting the whatever all together, power it up, wait for the little green lights...then scratch one's head as one of the lights stay on red...I feel ''making it work'' is taken from me, lands in the hands of the designer, manufacturer, when you try to make wireless 'work'..I get this everytime I go to a certain Safeway and try to connect with their worthless wi-fi..and it never works..I would rather have E-Shift wires..plus, an outside battery so once again, people can see how cool I am....

I get it, I have trouble with wi-fi in some of the places I frequent too.

But the operative words in my original post were "subjective preference".

Fwiw, I think I could live with wires from the battery to the derailleurs as John suggested. I just think the controls should be wireless. It's the only way I (me personally, for my own use) will ever get on board with e-shifting. If my customers wanted it, I be happy to accommodate their preferences. I am all in favor of selling people what they want. ;)

Cheers,
KP

[jpw]

But needing to 'accommodate' putting the whatever all together, power it up, wait for the little green lights...then scratch one's head as one of the lights stay on red...I feel ''making it work'' is taken from me, lands in the hands of the designer, manufacturer, when you try to make wireless 'work'..I get this everytime I go to a certain Safeway and try to connect with their worthless wi-fi..and it never works..I would rather have E-Shift wires..plus, an outside battery so once again, people can see how cool I am....

have you started using your Athena EPS yet?

[oldpotatoe]

have you started using your Athena EPS yet?

Not yet, because if weather and nanny-ing, I haven't had my workshop built yet. Gotta move a crap load of stuff outta the way, so the gent can build it. Rented a 'pod', comes Monday, gonna start next week. I take a bunch of during/post build pix, and put them in a folder....or any pix if the thing breaks.

[torquer]

Nothing more exciting than Internet engineers arguing the finest details. :rolleyes:
+1
That's what keeps me coming back!

[jamesutiopia]

This area looks thoroughly mined with patents, which ought to allow plenty of time for customers to buy product during each phase of the development process...