Cycling products you wouldn't buy again

[MattTuck]

There's a lot of people on here trying a lot of products. What are the ones that you would avoid in the future?

For me, it is some Zipp Service Course tacky bar tape. barely 1,300 miles and it needs to be replaced due to rips.


What have you guys got?

[Likes2ridefar]

stems with titanium screws

[kramnnim]

Conti Force tires...they're like GP4ks with half the rubber already worn off.

[redir]

Anything light weight for racing. I still race but I break stuff, no more super light carbon wheels, stems, saddles, you name it. Never again. Nothing worse than breaking a spoke ten minutes into a 80 mile race :(

[Aaron O]

Let's see...

Brooks bar tape - it gets slippery, stains easily and feels awful.

Any tire lever that isn't a Michelin yellow lever.

Challenge Roubaix tubulars - very disappointing for the money, the FMB's are worth the premium.

Airzound horn - just never worked properly

Origin 8 bell - it looks just like the Crane/NYC bells, but not nearly as loud.

Selle Anatomica Saddles - I thought the company was very nice, but I thought the saddle was poo poo.

Brooks leather bags (really anything Brooks makes that isn't a saddle) - cheap crap that's overpriced.

Ortlieb's bags using the QR3 system - it's just annoying and the clamps slide. Their other systems are FAR nicer.

Radbot light - spend the extra $5 and get the PB, it's far more durable.

SRAM.

I also have a longggggg list of stuff I really love and recommend.

[Likes2ridefar]

SRAM.



I should've listed this one too. While I've enjoyed it when freshly installed, the stuff stinks after any sort of heavy use especially in bad weather. at least that's my experience on two different bikes. one sram rival and a winter commuter and the other a a mix of red/rival on a race bike.

broken parts, worst shifting ever, etc....

[Gsinill]

Park Tool TL-6C Steel Core Tyre Levers

[etu]

velo orange setback seat-post suddenly broke during a ride. :eek:
needless to say it was very, very painful! :mad:

[FlashUNC]

Any Challenge road tire. Between the impossible-to-mount and fragile Parigi-Roubaixs to the even more impossible to mount Challenge Strada tubulars, I've had nothing but bad luck with their products.

[veloduffer]

stems with titanium screws

+1 Had a 3ttt stem with ti screws that snapped even before they were even tight. Better to happen in the shop than on the road…It made me a little wary of other 3ttt stuff like seat posts and carbon forks.

SRAM - I have full Red on a Madone, which came with the bike. Just not the same league in terms of shifting with Campy (my usual) and Shimano, even the mid-range stuff like Athena and 105. It's light weight, but at a cost.

Dare I say Rapha? Not that Rapha is not quality goods, but just so overpriced. I have the classic soft-shell, which has lots of nice features. Thankfully I did not pay full price (got it used), as it doesn't seem worth the price. I actually prefer my Pearl Izumi soft shell and Capo Padrone.

[Aaron O]

Any Challenge road tire. Between the impossible-to-mount and fragile Parigi-Roubaixs to the even more impossible to mount Challenge Strada tubulars, I've had nothing but bad luck with their products.

Their tubulars were really crap for the money...they aren't rounded well and have this flat spot to the ride; it's hard to describe. I bought a pair of the FMBs and they're night and day...the difference in quality is far greater than the difference in price.

Another to add on the vintage side of things - Campagnolo seatpost binder bolts; yes, they're great in photos...but I've had bad luck with them more than once.

[zap]

titanium bicycle frames……..with machined bullet caps at the stay's.

[Bruce K]

Magnetic bottle mounts for all but my cyclocross bikes

They work great when new but as the metal plate wears not so much

I like them on the cross bike because you can carry a bottle for recon and don 't have to take the cage off (there isn't one). But on the road, any good bump and bye-bye bottle - especially on downtube (gravity seems to help seat tube location)

BK

[FlashUNC]

Their tubulars were really crap for the money...they aren't rounded well and have this flat spot to the ride; it's hard to describe. I bought a pair of the FMBs and they're night and day...the difference in quality is far greater than the difference in price.

Another to add on the vintage side of things - Campagnolo seatpost binder bolts; yes, they're great in photos...but I've had bad luck with them more than once.

Mine was the same experience. I pulled and remounted the same tire three times trying to get it round, and couldn't work both a flat spot out of it and a wiggle in the tread.

I know people swear by their cross tires (which I've never personally used) and they may be excellent. But their road tires are, without a doubt, total garbage.

[satchmo]

Polar Insulated Water bottles. There are these dimples on the inside of the bottle that I can't get clean to save my life. The camel bak version smokes a$$ compared to polar.

Specialized Roubaix bar tape. At the time there was no adhesive or not enough. Kept slipping.

[David Kirk]

DT twist style skewers - never again.

dave

[Dustin]

Tires below 28mm.

Tires with puncture protection.

Weight weenie MTB rotors, or just about any uber weight weenie parts for that matter.

Narrow MTB bars (anything below 700mm).

Avid MTB brakes. Just get some XTs and be done with it.

After building up a bike with XX1, I'm tempted to say front derailleurs on MTBs. But I will at least say that triples are dead to me.

Quick release suspension forks.

Finally--titanium axle bottom brackets.

[choke]

Assos bibs - easily the most uncomfortable I've ever owned. (That should make some people go :eek:)

Latex tubes. Maybe 5 miles into the first ride on them I had a flat. While fixing it, the other tire went 'boom' - when I pulled it I found the tube had split along a seam.

[pinkshogun]

when searching for faux leather bar tape i bought tan Bike Ribbon on the cheap. it was barely long enough and didnt quite lay down as well of Fizik faux leather tape....which is 3 times the price but 10 times the value

[Bob Ross]

DT twist style skewers - never again.

Yeah, I thought those were so cool when I first got them. That feeling lasted approximately one week.

I moved them off of the bike with breezer dropouts, which allowed me to at least tolerate them...but they still really seem like a solution in search of a problem.

[Tony]

For the most part I've had a good experience with bike/bike products purchased. However, the Mavic Aksium Wheelset I recent purchased is garbage! The new wheels were badly out of true, spent several hours truing both wheels.

[crownjewelwl]

road tubeless tires

[Steve in SLO]

FSA cranks. Had problems with the splines wearing out making the crank arms go wobbly, and with the threaded pedal insert coming loose. It's not fun doing an unexpected one legged drill on a ride.

[Seramount]

clip-on aero bars.

horrid things.

[wgp]

Choke -

as per Assos bibs: like saddles, I guess, each to his own. I am surprised, as I've never heard anyone who didn't love their Assos bibs, but our own individual physiological statuses dictate what works for us.

[christian]

This thread reminds me I only buy boring well-proven stuff.

That said, Rivendell Ruffy Tuffys.

I like the Roly Polys, but I found the ride of the Ruffy Tuffys to be wholly intolerable. I'd rather walk.

That said, I think this is a personal thing. My wife commuted for some years on 25mm Specialized Armadillos and she would say things like, "I don't know what you're complaining about, they ride fine!" so maybe it's just me.

[ColonelJLloyd]

But their (Challenge) road tires are, without a doubt, total garbage.

I know plenty of folks who love the Parigi-Roubaix clincher, myself included. Great grip, feel and comfort. Might be a little harder to mount than some others, but once one starts using tubeless rim tape and owns a VAR or Kool Stop tool it's a non-issue. I've found that once they've been mounted twice they're as easy to mount as anything else. YMMV and all that. . .

That said, Rivendell Ruffy Tuffys.

I like the Roly Polys, but I found the ride of the Ruffy Tuffys to be wholly intolerable. I'd rather walk.

Agreed. The Jack Browns without the liner and extra rubber are great; lots of volume, cushy and plenty durable. The other version? May as well be a Gatorskin hardshell. Like you, I'd rather walk.

[FlashUNC]

I know plenty of folks who love the Parigi-Roubaix clincher, myself included. Great grip, feel and comfort. Might be a little harder to mount than some others, but once one starts using tubeless rim tape and owns a VAR or Kool Stop tool it's a non-issue. I've found that once they've been mounted twice they're as easy to mount as anything else. YMMV and all that. . .



Agreed. The Jack Browns without the liner and extra rubber are great; lots of volume, cushy and plenty durable. The other version? May as well be a Gatorskin hardshell. Like you, I'd rather walk.

A lot of it is personal experience, and mine was nothing but bad luck with anything Challenge. The Parigi clinchers were forehead cave-in difficult to mount, then flatted really easily and wore through really quickly. The ride was nice, but nowhere near nice enough to offset the easy flats, difficult initial mounting and quick wear. Tried Schwalbes in a similar width and never looked back and now have a set of Conti GP 4Seasons that I like even more.

To each his own. I'm glad someone's had a good experience with them, but they're never getting another nickel of my money.

[mcteague]

DT twist style skewers - never again.

dave

Ruh roh! You mean the RWS type? Joe Young suggested those for my last set of wheels. Working fine so far.

Tim
http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=108559&stc=1&d=1357477822

[texbike]

This thread reminds me I only buy boring well-proven stuff.

That said, I think this is a personal thing. My wife commuted for some years on 25mm Specialized Armadillos and she would say things like, "I don't know what you're complaining about, they ride fine!" so maybe it's just me.

LOL! "Princess and the pea" kinda thing I guess on the tires.

For the most part, most of my stuff has worked fine. There are bikes and bits that I've liked less than others, but most of it's been pretty solid. It wouldn't take an entire hand to count the number of equipment failures that I've had over 20 years of riding both road and mountain. Sticking to the tried and true stuff has definitely helped.

Texbike

[Dustin]

They've been OK for me on bikes without hooded chainstays, but I'm not sure how they are an improvement on the bullet-proof Shimano QRs.

[parris]

Specialized aquaveto jacket. It doesn't breath at all, the zipper doesn't keep rain out, and the cuffs are great funnels for water... other than that it's great! :mad:

[moose8]

Outer layers/rain jackets that don't have some hi-viz component.

[cmg]

campagnolo seat posts. I have 2 of them and they rarely fit anything other than a Serotta frame. :mad:

[Aaron O]

A lot of it is personal experience, and mine was nothing but bad luck with anything Challenge. The Parigi clinchers were forehead cave-in difficult to mount, then flatted really easily and wore through really quickly. The ride was nice, but nowhere near nice enough to offset the easy flats, difficult initial mounting and quick wear. Tried Schwalbes in a similar width and never looked back and now have a set of Conti GP 4Seasons that I like even more.

To each his own. I'm glad someone's had a good experience with them, but they're never getting another nickel of my money.

I've had the exact same experience with three...THREE...Challenge Parigi tubulars. It's NOT just you, and the seller said they had a high rate of returns and would be discontinuing them.

[gomango]

I've had the exact same experience with three...THREE...Challenge Parigi tubulars. It's NOT just you, and the seller said they had a high rate of returns and would be discontinuing them.

That kinda bums me a bit.

I have recommended Challenge tires to so many friends.

I have not heard such mixed responses before.

Either they love them or they hate them.

For legit reasons.

Fwiw I have had great luck with Almanzos, Eroicas and Strada Biancas. In fact, I am looking for a decent price on Chicanes for my Merckx cross bike.

[crownjewelwl]

boutique taiwanese titanium bits...

like kncnc skewers

[choke]

campagnolo seat posts. I have 2 of them and they rarely fit anything other than a Serotta frame. :mad:Now that surprises me - I've never had a problem with a Campy post not fitting and I've been using them for a long time.

Choke - as per Assos bibs: like saddles, I guess, each to his own. I am surprised, as I've never heard anyone who didn't love their Assos bibs, but our own individual physiological statuses dictate what works for us.I agree...it's all subjective. I know I'm in a very small minority as most people seem to love them.

[R2D2]

Choke -

as per Assos bibs: like saddles, I guess, each to his own. I am surprised, as I've never heard anyone who didn't love their Assos bibs, but our own individual physiological statuses dictate what works for us.

Depends on the chamois to me.
I like the thin orange colored ones. But hate the big diaper ones.

[giverdada]

Continental Grand Prix (not the 4000 or 4000S, just the Grand Prix) tires - worst ever. So many flats in my first 242k ride that poured rain the whole time, and the second one almost got me hypothermia in fixing it. Ugh.

Cheap bib shorts from China. OuCH.

A used, triple-butted titanium frame.

Continental Gatorskin tubulars. No better flat protection than a straight up Sprinter or Competition, and seemed to actually flat more.

3 for $50 tubulars from YellowJersey. Great cheap set-up, but too many faults to make it worth anything other than gluing practice.

a 3rd hand tool. Just use your third hand… :rolleyes:

[donevwil]

1. Cheap. clone SPD pedals (Nashbar, Wellgo) - have a nice scar on my shin in case I forget.
2. Topline Cranks - wiggle, wiggle snap, no scar.


velo orange setback seat-post suddenly broke during a ride. :eek:
needless to say it was very, very painful! :mad:

Please, tell us more. Where did it break ?

[OtayBW]

Choke -

as per Assos bibs: like saddles, I guess, each to his own. I am surprised, as I've never heard anyone who didn't love their Assos bibs, but our own individual physiological statuses dictate what works for us.
Well, here's another!! ;) They just didn't hold up after 1 season.

[Waldo]

+1 on Parigi-Roubaix clinchers -- flat magnets. I've had great luck with Gran Bois tires, though.

Any piece of cycling electronic equipment. I have remarkably bad luck with every computer. The only thing that works reasonably reliably is Strava on my phone, so I keep my "computer" in the jersey pocket.

Front shifting with Rotor rings -- my heart skips a beat every time I shift up.

[velotrack]

Vittoria randonneur, for the commuter - this one's probably mixed as there are a ton of people who love these tires, but they were super heavy and didn't have quite a good enough ride feel for me.

Weight weenie skewers. Not for me.

[DfCas]

No more Conti tires for me. Tore the sidewall out of several.

[umami]

Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX tires. Amazing on the dry, terrifying on the wet. Left me with scars and sprains, both physical and psychological.

A note on those skewers: DT claims they're capable of 25% higher clamping forces than standard QR. I reckon they're intended to be a stop-gap for non-thru-axle hubs using disc brakes. To that effect, I tolerate them, but they're a practically a liability everywhere else. I've had nearly every shop mechanic try to wrench 'em open like a QR--"Whooaaa---nononono! Like this, see?"

If you crash on them, say, if your fancy Italian tires go out on a wet corner for example, the sliding feature of the lever stops working making wheel removal exceedingly difficult. They are, however, easier to use with sprained fingers.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=108559&stc=1&d=1357477822

[primov8]

KCNC teflon coated shifter & brake cables.

I tried them back in 2012 because they came in different colors and specifically wanted white and powder blue (for a Caad10 gulf color build I rode for two months).
Upon inspection, it felt as if the "teflon" coating was painted on the cables. Installing them was just like any typical steel cable but they immediately frayed and splintered after torquing down the binder bolts on both derailleurs and brakes.

[slidey]

stems with titanium screws

+1

One of the stupider ideas.

[eippo1]

I'd agree with FSA cranks. Could never get them tight.

Really don't get all the hate for SRAM, though. I have Shimano, SRAM and Campy and like them all. The SRAM has thousands of miles and works great (once I swap out the FD's for Ultegra). And I have used the full range from Red to Apex.

If anything, I've had the most issues with Shimano mis-shifts. Dunno if this was fixed with 7800, but not willing to give it a try because the shifter shape is way uncomfortable for me.

[shinomaster]

my 09 veloce stuff doesn't work as well as my 09 centaur stuff, but they don't make this stuff anymore so it doesn't matter.

[yummygooey]

cheap bib shorts - i love love love my rapha bibs. pricey, and i understand not everyone needs or wants fancy bibs, but my pro team bibs have been one of my favorite cycling purchases.

vittoria open corsa evo cx clinchers - i had some for about 150 miles before i gave up and stuck them in the bottom of my parts bin. i found them to be very flat prone and have very poor wet weather performance and... well, it's wet in seattle most of the time.

fizik arione - i rode and hoarded these for my whole first year of serious cycling and i have no idea how/why i did. that saddle is SO painful.

----

i love sram! performance, ergonomics, aesthetics, all of it. i don't see myself going shimano in the near future but i might be interested in trying a full campy bike. i've done srampy before and while i liked the functionality of the campy lever, i wasn't impressed with the mix of sram/campy together. blegh!

[jtakeda]

Ciussi cages. Broke so many of them.

Eggbeater pedals- again, I have a graveyard of broken ones.

I'm sure I'll think of more

[CunegoFan]

Speedplay pedals and anything else people tell you to carry extra crap in your pockets to avoid problems.

[Rekalcitrant]

Challenge grifo clinchers. Tore the bead out of the casing on two of them in the middle of races. I thought it was just bad luck the first time...

[terry]

Has mentioned a Bontrager carbon post. Snapped while mtbing and let me tell you riding in the woods for over two miles, to get back to the car, while standing really sucks.

[keevon]

All mini-pumps are terrible. I don't go anywhere without a frame pump.

Crank Brothers Speed Lever. Had one break on me while changing a flat on Chicago's lakefront during the winter. Chucked the f***ing thing into the lake and took the train home.

Steel-core tire levers. They destroyed my rims.

Duro tires. Got them free and they still weren't worth it. Wiped out hard the first time I leaned into a corner.

[ckamp]

Vittoria Open Corsa Evo CX tires
(wore very easy, replaced sooner than normal, many flats and tears)

Canari Cycling Jerseys
(fit like a fat cut t-shirt)

Cheap water bottle cages on ebay
(it broke at the welds and I lost a good water bottle)

0-float SPD
(why did I not try float for the past 7 years?)

Minipumps
(if you like riding a 70psi tire, or have 30mins to pump!)

Cinelli Cork Tape - White
(lasts white for one ride..)

Mavic Wireless technology
(never worked properly)

Oh I am sure there is more.

[cinema]

lezyne mini pump is great for the record.

I guess for me I wouldn't buy another proprietary vessel fixture, QR or not. I now attach everything with straps, zip ties, or standard rack fittings. If you can't swing it that way without some kind of downside it wasn't meant to be carried or attached to your bike.

[keevon]

One more...

Mad Alchemy embrocation or any "embro" for that matter. Pretending that my legs are warm during my ride and then screaming in the shower afterwards is not my idea of a good time.

[mgm777]

This thread is too much fun!

Okay, I'll play along...

-Ritchey WCS stems - broke two of them...noticed during a bike wash - and, yes I do use a torque wrench
-concur on Ti stem bolts
-Embro of any kind...doesn't rain enough in CO
-Skewers of any type/brand except Dura Ace and Record
-Anything weight weenie-ish
-All messenger bags...they look hip, but they suck for riding...backpack is more comfortable
-All cycling rain jackets...they all suck...I'd rather just get wet and deal with it.
-18 mm tires...back in the late '80s I actually opted for them, thinking I would be faster...rode a 50 mile race, in the rain, on those tires....never again. Not sure what I was thinking.
-Carbon bars and seat posts...over it...and they don't really dampen anything.
-Anything that saves a little weight and costs a lot more.
-Off-brand bulk inner tubes...there was a reason they were oddly inexpensive and only sold in bulk quantity.

[christian]

One more...

Mad Alchemy embrocation or any "embro" for that matter. Pretending that my legs are warm during my ride and then screaming in the shower afterwards is not my idea of a good time.

Happy to pm you my address if you need to dispose of it. I love trying new embrocations!

[merckx]

tufo, tofu and typhoid

Pick three.

[Admiral Ackbar]

conti tires. between the 6 I've bought; 3 blown sidewalls, 2 defective casings, and the one remaining that i threw away after all the problems i had. f that jazz.

[sw3759]

those horrible tufo clincher tubular tires.hands down the worst riding tires ever.

anything made by zipp.they burned me back in the 90's with one their crappy hubsets and i swore of their products for good.

titanium pedal spindles..thanks tnt,175lb weight limit my ass.broken pedal axles on top of loveland pass make for not so fun descent.

[Netdewt]

This thread is awesome.

I can only think of one at the moment: padded cycling underwear. Not sure why I thought that was a good idea.

[r_mutt]

Tacx Tao wattle bottle cages.

broke the bit that the bottle sits on. i broke one after less than 6 months use, and then 2 more in 2 days. 3 strikes and you're out.

FSA chainrings - terrible shifting!

i might try tubeless again, maybe...

[technicolor]

Road Holland jersey. Cut is too long, middle pocket is ridiculously narrow, and the pockets are too shallow/loose.

[slidey]

Any of those 'nutritional' gel products

[ldamelio]

One more...

Mad Alchemy embrocation or any "embro" for that matter. Pretending that my legs are warm during my ride and then screaming in the shower afterwards is not my idea of a good time.

Ummmmm........you're supposed to wipe it off before you shower. Mad Alchemy fan here.

[weisan]

Bikes that don't fit.

[bcroslin]

Tacx Tao water bottle cage. You're better off trying to fashion cages out of the $50 you're spending.

Any bike with a non-standard seat post clamping mechanism i.e. 2011 BMC Team Machine.

[oldpotatoe]

Because of the way I hold my handlebar, they wear quickly where the heel of my hand hits them.

Leather/Leathery type, using Stella Azurro right now, have a Brooks set waiting for my Merckx EPS right now...BBB on another bike...

[Bob Ross]

Tacx Tao water bottle cage. You're better off trying to fashion cages out of the $50 you're spending.

I don't disagree that the Tacx Tao definitely belongs on the Won't Buy These Again list (see my recent post about all the Taos I blew through elsewhere on this forum...or maybe it was across the hall?), but where are you spending $50 for a Tao? They always cost me $14.

[godfrey1112000]

FSA cranks. Had problems with the splines wearing out making the crank arms go wobbly, and with the threaded pedal insert coming loose. It's not fun doing an unexpected one legged drill on a ride.

And their great customer service:butt:

And anything that looks or is built cheap

[wallymann]

stems with titanium screws

interested in this...did you have some sort of failure?

[shovelhd]

Quarq S975. I had two fail on me before they replaced it with a Riken, which has been rock solid so far.

[ctcyclistbob]

velo orange setback seat-post suddenly broke during a ride. :eek:
needless to say it was very, very painful! :mad:

Ouch. Thanks for posting this as I've been looking at that post, but not now. Good to know.

[TimD]

Any Ritchey stem
Any Ritchey seatpost
Carmichael alloy RD pulleys
Any Shimano single-speed freewheel for winter use

[Ralph]

For Christmas wife bought me a Lights and Motion VIS 180 Micro tail light. Probably would not recommend it for day time use. It's a very bright piercing light, brighter than you would expect from looking at it in store, OK for trails and dark areas, if someone is looking right at it, but light beam is just not big enough. I think a light with a much larger "beam" for want of a better word, would be much safer. So I would not get this light again for my use....mostly daylight use. Do like the excellent way it clips on to bag loop, it won't come off when riding, and ease of charging.

Maybe light is fine, I just got wrong light for my use. Probably just need to pony up and get a Dinotte.

[avalonracing]

It's fun to read the number of products here that people are swearing off like the plague that I have used hard and heavy for years without issue
(EVO CX tires, Ritchey stems etc...). But I should note that I use torque wrenches when I work on my bike and don't ride racing tires in the city.

[mtechnica]

Anything FSA
Anything crank brothers
Tubular wheels or tires (sorry)
Tires made by vittoria (sorry, maybe except pave clinchers)
Lightweight parts from ebay (skewers, etc...)
Brooks saddles

[Buzz]

FSA cranks. Had problems with the splines wearing out making the crank arms go wobbly, and with the threaded pedal insert coming loose. It's not fun doing an unexpected one legged drill on a ride.

Spent the better part of a year and a lot of grief and $$$ trying to get an FSA crank to work. Never did.

[bcroslin]

I don't disagree that the Tacx Tao definitely belongs on the Won't Buy These Again list (see my recent post about all the Taos I blew through elsewhere on this forum...or maybe it was across the hall?), but where are you spending $50 for a Tao? They always cost me $14.

Somewhere along the line I bought a fancy set and broke them just like the cheaper ones. I've easily spent over $100 on those stupid cages.

[Steve in SLO]

Any Ritchey stem
Any Ritchey seatpost
Carmichael alloy RD pulleys
Any Shimano single-speed freewheel for winter use

Funny, because Ritchey stems and seatposts are my go-to.
You must have had as many bad experiences as I have had good with their products.

[Ralph]

I also use Ritchey aluminum WCS bars, stems, and seat posts on all my bikes. Light as CF for a fraction of the price. I use the 2 bolt seat post clamp models. Never have a bit of problems.

[gemship]

Chainlube,happy to make my own.

[zzy]

Gotta add to the Vittoria Evo CX chorus - the soft rubber was a magnet for sharp debris. I got regular slow flats unless I carefully inspected them each ride. More flats on those tires than anything else I've ridden combined. Only suffered thru it cause I had a stash of CSC CX tires to match my favorite period correct CSC team bike. When I moved to NYC I was literally getting a flat every 100 miles...

[CunegoFan]

I also use Ritchey aluminum WCS bars, stems, and seat posts on all my bikes. Light as CF for a fraction of the price. I use the 2 bolt seat post clamp models. Never have a bit of problems.

That does not really mean anything if quality control is a problem. It might mean the designs are good so that a good build quality will not fail...or maybe you were just lucky.

I have heard enough cheers and jeers for Ritchey products to make me steer clear. I don't hear the same spotty experience with a brand like Thomson.

[avalonracing]

I don't hear the same spotty experience with a brand like Thomson.

I have five sets Ritchey stems and bars and have owned many more. I have yanked on them in countless attacks and final sprints and county-line di*k-swinging contests. They have never failed me. I must be "lucky" with every Ritchey product I have purchased.
I had a Thomson post break and I rode home standing for 15 miles. I must have been "unlucky" with that one. Yes, Thomson warrantied it and I continue to ride them on three of my bikes but I'm justing pointing out that things happen.

[bigbill]

Conti GP4000 tires. I love the ride, but the sidewalls don't hold up well. If you flat at any kind of speed and don't get stopped before it's completely flat, chances are you trashed the sidewall. I still have a few and for that reason, I always carry a few dollar bills in my bag so I can boot a tire to get home.

3T Ergonova bars. Bought a 44 which measure 44cm c-c at the drops but a little under 41cm at the hoods. I'd much rather have them the other way around. I'd rather have my hands wider while climbing and narrower on the drops.

[hainy]

Assos Bibs...seem to be made for short solid riders. I am tall and thin and they just don't fit.

Skins bibs. Just aweful

Overpriced helmets

SMP saddles. Gave me terrible back pain after 30 minutes of riding. Flat saddles with no cut out for me.

Tacx water bottle cages

Non custom steel road bikes.

Any pedal that is not speed play

Any groupset that is not Campagnolo

Sidi non Mega shoes.

Non merino socks. Smartwool are my favourites

One bolt seat posts

Long drop bars

Non Hand built standard rim wheels

Anything that saves a few grams for twice the price

Any fancy GPS style computer. A simple Knog for me

Any bike stand that clamps tubes. I have had two bike shops damage my frames from slipping and damage occurs under the top of seat stays.

Bad coffee

[MePaleo]

Slime tire sealant... thought it would be great way to prevent flats on my commuter. But, on my way to a meeting, I hit some glass, blew out a tire and got totally slimed. Sprayed my pants, rim, tire. That garbage was everywhere!

A royal blue Canari wind jacket. I got roped in by a sale price at REI. It looks like something Bea Arthur would have worn in the Golden Girls. It does make for a nice parachute in the wind, though.

[slidey]

Anatomic bend handlebars :butt:

[ceolwulf]

Bad coffee


Best answer

[dmurphey]

I have tried a bunch of wider supple all round and road/gravel tires for 700C wheels and am running the Challenge Strada Bianca 30 mm tires for about 4 months almost all the time. No flats. Nice ride. They come flat, and are a bear to mount the first time, but then take a rounded shape. They are fairly light for an all round tire. The Parigi Roubaix's are much more fragile, these are the same casing with more flat protection, but still good ride.

Conti GP4000S's were dis'd here as well, the 700 23's are absolutely one of the best road tires around.

[bthornt]

spinergy spox

[weisan]

More than anything, I think this thread highlights the diversity of opinions.

[martl]

This thread just proves that not every product is the right choice for everyone. I see parts listed here that are on my shortlist for a no-fuss bike (Cont GPs, Ritchey parts...)


On my own list are:

- powermeter cranks - a treat for the nerd in me but i found out i can't be bothered to spend a year or so learning about all the training theory (and filter the right one out of the many contradicting ones floating around). Thankfully, they resell really well.

- USE alien seatpost, or rather, anything so vital that takes a non-standard tool to adjust

- superlight kevlar bottle holders - only 6g but took their job too seriously, impossible to convince them not to hold the bottle

- any saddle with stitching on it, too costly on cycling shorts

- long leg warmers - when knee warmers don't do, i use long tights for the extra layer around my gentleman's area.

- Assos arm and knee warmers - too short and won't stay in place on my spindly arms and legs.

- Dugast seta strada tires - two flats on one day cost me 190€, and they don't really ride better than Veloflexes at half the price

- Tune road stem - not everything they make is light and pretty

- Michelin Pro tires - predictable as a rattlesnake in the wet

- cheap tools - you end up buying the quality version after first use

- Gore Ride-On cables and Nokon pearls - cables are expendable parts, as are handlebar tapes

- reproduction pro clothing - they can be good quality for a low price if you buy last seasons stuff so they are great when you are on a budget, i prefer not to look like an advertising pillar for italian ceramic

- Shimano gear that is not top of the line like DA or XTR.

[endosch2]

I agree, this is anecdotal. There is not a lot of consensus here.

[oldpotatoe]

More than anything, I think this thread highlights the diversity of opinions.

I agree...rather than something bought that just didn't work, or broke early, or didn't perform as advertised.....or a side note, it broke and the 'customer service' was really poor...or really good but the thing shouldn't have broken.

Some mild consensus, like FSA, spinergy, not sure how these boys stay in biz.

[shovelhd]

Chainlube,happy to make my own.

Me too. Better chain/cassette wear and a lot easier to keep clean.

[SolidSnake03]

Look Keo Pedals (classic, max, blade etc..)

Quite simply don't see a reason for them. Shimano SPD-SL's are a better version of the same design. They have a more durable and walkable cleat and a pedal that 99% of the time hangs in an ideal orientation. Also, pedals themselves are durable as all get out. See no advantage to the Looks except a very small amount of weight while being inferior in all other respects.

[Schmed]

PearlIzumi P.R.O. shorts - my old PIs are my absolute faves - the ones with white stitching. The new version is smaller / too tight / loose at the waist.

BB7 MTB brakes - hated them on my mountain bike. Squeaky, frequent adjustment. Went to Hyrdos and will never go back. Have the BB7SLs on my cross bike, and they are much less noisy, and have better feel, though.

[josephr]

Minipumps
(if you like riding a 70psi tire, or have 30mins to pump!)


Try this --- pump with the mini-pump to 30-40psi and then top off with a CO2 cartridge. Was on a long ride and flatted early. Worked great for me.
Joe

[Elefantino]

Hutchinson tires. We stock them, but I don't recommend them.

Ditto FSA.

Castelli bibs. Large is too small. XL is too big. It's a quandary.

Anything Specialized.

Any Honey Stinger product with "his" picture on it.

Anything Trek.

Anything carbon in a part that I wouldn't want to break on me.

[Ahneida Ride]

My Zefal HP frame pump never worked right for me ..

My Lezyne Pressure Drive (7 inch mini pump) does the trick.
It has a hose. Perhaps that is why.
Only Lezyne (I believe) offers a connecting hose.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . included a requirement that posters state WHY the product does not work for them. Too much of this feedback is really of no practical use to me because there's no reason given why exactly the poster wouldn't buy the product again.


BBD

[OtayBW]

Any Honey Stinger product with "his" picture on it.

Ha ha! They took his image off of the individual packages pretty quickly, but his pic was still there on the last box that I bought. Guess they're in the process of re-tooling.

[shovelhd]

. . . included a requirement that posters state WHY the product does not work for them. Too much of this feedback is really of no practical use to me because there's no reason given why exactly the poster wouldn't buy the product again.


BBD

The Quarqs failed due to electronics pod breakdowns. The first one started dropping output, then the offset went to -2200, then it died completely. The second one slowly started reading low, which drove me nuts as I was trying to recover from injury. It never died but Quarq replaced it with a Riken. No issues with that so far. My post was more of a warning for people looking at buying NOS or used Quarq S975 power meters. Stay away.

[Elefantino]

. . . included a requirement that posters state WHY the product does not work for them. Too much of this feedback is really of no practical use to me because there's no reason given why exactly the poster wouldn't buy the product again.
Hutchinsons blow. Literally.
FSA tolerances are crap.
Specialized sucks.
Trek sucks.
Carbon breaks.
The rest is self explanatory. ;)

[Bradford]

I'm done with road pedals.

I switched over to a common platform so all my shoes fit all my pedals last year and haven't looked back. My summer shoes and my winter shoes fit all my bikes and I can walk around comfortably when I ride my road bike now. I feel foolish I waited so long.

[thirdgenbird]

My Zefal HP frame pump never worked right for me ..

My Lezyne Pressure Drive (7 inch mini pump) does the trick.
It has a hose. Perhaps that is why.
Only Lezyne (I believe) offers a connecting hose.

A quick search shows that trek, specialized, and Topeak all make mini pumps with hoses.

[4Rings6Stars]

i'm done with road pedals.

I switched over to spd so all my shoes fit all my pedals last year and haven't looked back. My summer shoes and my winter shoes fit all my bikes and i can walk around comfortably when i ride my road bike now. I feel foolish i waited so long.

fify

[cinema]

I'm done with road pedals.

I switched over to a common platform so all my shoes fit all my pedals last year and haven't looked back. My summer shoes and my winter shoes fit all my bikes and I can walk around comfortably when I ride my road bike now. I feel foolish I waited so long.

+1. Looks were better than SPDs but now all my bikes have large platform pedals. Done w clipless for almost all my riding. My favorite are the velo orange but I also really like these old diamondback bmx pedals I just procured.

[jtakeda]

I'm done with road pedals.

I switched over to a common platform so all my shoes fit all my pedals last year and haven't looked back. My summer shoes and my winter shoes fit all my bikes and I can walk around comfortably when I ride my road bike now. I feel foolish I waited so long.

I feel like road pedals give me a bigger platform to push on.

I much prefer them to mountain pedals.

[velotrack]

I'd have to agree with that. Going from SPD's to keo's were a whole big improvement in how I rode, no doubt about that. Wouldn't go back to a tiny surface area.

[oldpotatoe]

fify

What if he switched to time MtB pedals or crank bro?

SPD is almost Kleenex or Qtip but not quite.

[r_mutt]

I had one for 2 years with absolutely no issues- rock solid.
so did a few teammates.

YMMV


The Quarqs failed due to electronics pod breakdowns. The first one started dropping output, then the offset went to -2200, then it died completely. The second one slowly started reading low, which drove me nuts as I was trying to recover from injury. It never died but Quarq replaced it with a Riken. No issues with that so far. My post was more of a warning for people looking at buying NOS or used Quarq S975 power meters. Stay away.

[thirdgenbird]

I'd have to agree with that. Going from SPD's to keo's were a whole big improvement in how I rode, no doubt about that. Wouldn't go back to a tiny surface area.

Neither would I. I started on looks, went to spd (ultegra) when they came out, and then moved back to keos.

The ultegra spd pedals are pretty and very dependable, but I prefer how the look pedals engage, disengage, float and feel.

[beeatnik]

Knog Frog Lights.

That one should be obvious.

[kykr13]

Unless I missed it, I don't see anyone else mentioning Bontrager paired spoke wheels. They were fine for about the first 100mi after truing. Fortunately the rear developed cracks, so I got a new one that lives on the trainer.

[beeatnik]

VeloShine Bike Wipes.

Like wiping your bike with a dirty wet dishrag.

[rnhood]

Sram Red drive train - the original. I realize the group has vastly improved now and my compliments to Sram for evolving it, but the original red drive train remains the worst experience I ever had on a bike.

[pinkshogun]

PB Blaster. not quite bike specific but smells bad yet works pretty well. now i use Kroil which has a sweet smell, works a little better, and comes in nice burnt orange can that matches the decor

http://www.kanolabs.com/

[thirdgenbird]

Sram Red drive train - the original. I realize the group has vastly improved now and my compliments to Sram for evolving it, but the original red drive train remains the worst experience I ever had on a bike.

Care to explain? Are you talking the first generation that lasted quite a while or were there some early changes that went unnoticed to someone that wasn't using it?

[merckx]

Mavic Reflex tubs.

[jblande]

FSA crankset — same problems as everyone else

SRAM XO — Lord, I wish I had gotten Shimano.

BB30 — click, click, click

[Bob Ross]

VeloShine Bike Wipes.

Like wiping your bike with a dirty wet dishrag.


That's weird, I was given a pack and I really liked them

...not enough to ever buy them again, but enough so that if someone gave me another pack I'd use those too.

[bfd]

Hudz Campy gen 2 (round top) brake hoods - Ugh, terrible! I bought several at Nashbar on a closeout, now I know why! I tried two different pairs and none of them fit! They were so loose that they shifted around the brake lever as I rode. It would shift and block the shifter blades forcing me to readjust the hoods before shifting. I hated them and couldn't wait to get some new hoods.

Order a proper set of Campy OE brake hoods and all is now good! :banana::eek::butt::hello:

[Waldo]

Care to explain? Are you talking the first generation that lasted quite a while or were there some early changes that went unnoticed to someone that wasn't using it?

Front shifting on first gen Red is the worst I've experienced in 28 years of serious cycling. Finally replaced that Red f.der. with Force -- huge improvement.

[kgreene10]

Any Honey Stinger product with "his" picture on it.

Dude, best deal in cycling. Those waffles are yummy. And what better way to protest "him" than crumpling him up and throwing him away?

[oldpotatoe]

Front shifting on first gen Red is the worst I've experienced in 28 years of serious cycling. Finally replaced that Red f.der. with Force -- huge improvement.

And even better with a 6700. No surprise to me they made a 1by MTB group.

[Likes2ridefar]

Dude, best deal in cycling. Those waffles are yummy. And what better way to protest "him" than crumpling him up and throwing him away?

agreed, i've saved a lot of $ thanks to him.

[thirdgenbird]

Front shifting on first gen Red is the worst I've experienced in 28 years of serious cycling. Finally replaced that Red f.der. with Force -- huge improvement.

I'm aware of the front shifting issues, I just wondered if it went beyond that

[civdic]

Vittoria Rally Tubulars. Lumpy pieces of crap. I've owned three. Every one of them where hard to mount straight and had humps all over them.

[beeatnik]

That's weird, I was given a pack and I really liked them

...not enough to ever buy them again, but enough so that if someone gave me another pack I'd use those too.

First saw them a few years ago at the nicest bike shop in LA. The owner had good things to say about them so when they popped up on bonktown I picked up 3 or 4 packs. One pack went moldy even though I closed it as thoroughly as I've been closing wipes for years. The other packs, I use occasionally but they're useless for Ti or any painted or anodized alloy. Streaks for days. Ginda ok for wiping gunk off chains, derailleurs, brakes and headsets. Also, they're fine for wiping off sweat. I think they even recommended that usage. Biodegradable and all...

[Tony]

For the most part I've had a good experience with bike/bike products purchased. However, the Mavic Aksium Wheelset I recent purchased is garbage! The new wheels were badly out of true, spent several hours truing both wheels.

I spoke wrongly regarding these wheels. I was disappointed how out of true they came on a recent bike I purchased. After truing them I've been happy with them, seem like strong wheels. I think for the money the wheels are a good deal, however I would not purchase them again as I would want something lighter.

[CunegoFan]

Performance Lunar Light tubes. Maybe all ten of mine, which I bought on sale, came from a bad batch, but most seemed to spontaneously develop leaks. Some had small cuts partway through the tube near seams. They were also easy to damage when installing with a tire lever.

Really, any super lightweight tube.

[bargainguy]

I posted this topic on a more retro forum and saw this response from rickpaulos. Blast from the past.

"These are just a few products I or my family bought.

I still have a Wonder light. I got a 4 AA battery holder, cut off one end and wired that in. Works & fits. I worked in my lbs when those were the fad and battery sales where high, but only for a short while.

I still have the leg lights. The deluxe version had a side lens.

Belt Beacon, first flashing tail light. Yep, still have one. I remember going on a club ride one night and noticing that a tiny generator tail light was far more visible from 300 yards than the slow blinking Belt Beacon.

Solar powered Cateye bike computer! But it takes silver oxide batterys that were banned a couple decades ago. The only rechargeable hearing aide sized battery.

Ping ping ping ping ping, pin driven odometer. You could estimate your speed by counting the pings in a certain number of seconds based on your wheel size. Wanna listen to that incessant ping for 100 miles?

Huret Multido odometer. Belt driven, resettable trip display.

Silca frame & foot pumps, sure they were the best available, uh, then, but are junk compared to todays pumps.

Nail on Cleats! I'm sure those ruined countless thousands of knees.

Cinelli M-71 pedals & cleats. First pedal with lock in device. Problem was it was manual, you had to reach down to lock & unlock your feet. splat.

Avocet touring shoes. Blue suede, soft as house slippers, flexy as house slippers, cleat-emulating pre-molded groves in the sole to make sure your knees got tortured. The only good thing about them was they wore out so fast you didn't use them long enough to become a cripple. I broke the plastic stiffener inside the sole so they clicked every rev so they got tossed pdq.

Skid Lid helmets. When they were first introduced, they advertised you could fold them up and put them in your back pocket, just like a baseball cap. They quickly added a stiffer layer of foam. The worst thing was they used the same size outer "shell" so the bigger your head, typically accompanied by a larger body, the thinner the padding. The XL had two thin layers (about 1/8") of foam, each a different density, under the 1/8" layer of soft vinyl shell. One good thing was they proposed the idea of a break away helmet which later became part of helmet standards.

Bell Biker & V1-Pro helmets. Bomb proof shells. But. The helmets could cause injuries (seen that) and if they ever got snagged on anything, you would break your neck or rip your head off because the straps were so strong and would not break away.

Wool clothing! itch itch itch itch.

Real chamois in shorts. Modern synthetic is infinitely better.

Rain Ponchos.

Sew up tires! yep, probably bought 100 back in the day. good riddance.

Leather strap helmet. At least I got the Kucharick Super, about 10x the "padding" of the more stylish racer models that were really just a few strips of leather sewn together. Good thing I rarely crash.

Cannondale padlock. Before they made bikes, they tried to reinvent locks, total failure.

Cannondale Bugger. First USA baby trailer. 24" wheels, high center of gravity (yep, they would flip over) and the kid faced backwards, no covers either so all the toys and shoes would get launched overboard. Imagine the psychological terror of watching cars roaring towards you at face level. I'm sure there are thousands of such kids that grew up that would never allow their own kids to bike. I remember one local couple pulled their kid for a century only to discover 3rd degree sunburn on him! I watched another couple flipp theirs when they cut a corner a bit tight and it caught a curb.

Pletscher racks. Wobbly paint scratcher. A slightly improved model sold as Schwinn Approved.

Flick Stands. A bolt on device that keeps the front wheel from turning sideways when your bike is parked. Really? It's not that hard to lean a bike against a tree or post or wall without it falling over.

Greenfield Kickstands. Clamped on the chain stays. If it wobbles, just tighten the bolt some more, yep, crush the frame while you are at it.

Baby seats. Especially the all metal folding models. Sure to tear the toes off your child or crush his/her skull when the bike falls over. The worst bolted on mid-seat stay and could cause the frame to collapse.

Lambert aerospace bike. Yep, nearly ever single component was prone to breaking. The company decided they could make every part themselves. They copied the look and style of other products on the market but didn't do the metallurgy or testing. When the cracks started to appear, I sold mine. Before the new owner could get hurt via a failure, he got run over, the bike destroyed.

Hypercycle recumbent. First large scale production bent in the 1970s. Sold as a kit, you would take the parts off your road bike to finish it up. 27 or 700c rear wheel, 20" front wheel nearly under the horrible bucket seat. If you rode into a pothole, you would do an endo. A friend did that with his and impaled his pelvis on the chainring. I think I cracked some ribs riding mine as the seat back ended between the first & second rib. Really lousy back support. SWB, underhand steering. The center of gravity was way too far forward so using the rear brake would lock up the rear end and you would fishtail and fall over. The front beam was quite flexible so the harder you pedaled, the more the bike flexed but you didn't go any faster. Top speed was maybe 18mph during a sprint effort.

OEM 1970s Raleigh tires on Gran Prix, Record and Sprite 27" bikes. Too tall and too skinny straight ribs. Those tires had so much squirm, cornering was a real adventure.

Tyvek jacket by Baleno. Hard to believe that works as house wrap because it traps all your body moisture when used as clothing. Last time I wore mine was on a long a sub-freezing day ride and my sweat froze in to a sheet of ice in the back and that sliced the jacket open.

Weyless smart wool clothing. My jersey shrunk like mad, the tights grew length by 50%. Maybe it depended on which direction the weave was.

One I did NOT buy was "The Bare Foot Buddy", a vinyl sleeve you put over your rat trap pedals so you could stick your toes in your spokes or chain.

Oh yeah, another device I didn't get, the "Bone Phone". A radio you wore around your neck like a horse collar. the sound was transmitted via your collar bones so you heard the music thru your skeleton."

[cachagua]

Alright, I am officially Old. I have bought, or sold, or at least seen every one of those. . .

M71 pedals, though -- nothing the matter with that release mechanism. When you crash, the low-side pedal's release button hits the ground and releases, and your other leg releases at the ankle or knee. Just like ski boots of that period!

Okay, did we mention Cannondale's velcro water bottle & cage?

[11.4]

Alright, I am officially Old. I have bought, or sold, or at least seen every one of those. . .

M71 pedals, though -- nothing the matter with that release mechanism. When you crash, the low-side pedal's release button hits the ground and releases, and your other leg releases at the ankle or knee. Just like ski boots of that period

Yeah, but you had to crash to release them. I had them. It was fortuitous that I survived until Look pedals finally arrived.

As for the rest, again yeah, I've been there for all of them. Hairnet leather helmets and nail-on cleats. I remember working with Detto Pietros, Duegis, the old Adidas Eddy Merckx shoes, you name it. Like when I think about my butt, it's great not to have to look back too often.

[merckx]

When Look pedals came to market, the shoe technology was not up to the task of taking advantage of the clip-less system. I had a devil of a time finding shoes that were supportive enough to feel connected to the bike. I used Looks for a couple of years in the late 80's then actually went back to my Campy/Christophe/Binda pedals and Duegi 101's for a bit. I even rode Nationals with my old Campy pedals in 1990. It really took a long time for shoe manufacturers to get tooled-up.

[John M]

Funny reading this list....

My additions (some duplicated, I know)

650c wheeled road bike
Paired spoke wheels
19/20mm wide tires
Behind the seat water bottle cage holder
Wipperman basic steel 10s chain--rusted at first sign of moisture

I am sure there are more....

[civdic]

Zipp Hubs! Bearing preload comes loose, radial lacing pattern on drive side. Suck it big time!

[martl]

Cinelli M-71 pedals & cleats. First pedal with lock in device. Problem was it was manual, you had to reach down to lock & unlock your feet. splat.

I fail to see the difference to the cage/leather strap/cleat system that was common when they came out?!

[beeatnik]

Specialized tubes, long valve.

[Brainbike]

...unless you're ok buying a XXL and don't look it...

[EchelonLeft]

ultra-light or light anything.
I'm done with stopping.

[rab]

Got a bunch of these several years ago and kept having the plastic pieces that bolt to the frame break. This was annoying as replacements were not readily available, so every time one would break, I would replace it with one of the new cages I had. Eventually they kept breaking and I decided when the last one broke I was done. Accelerated this phase out after I had the seat tube cage break completely free during a faster group ride. Both bottle and cage broke free and managed to end up wedged in my back wheel, locking it up at around 22 mph, causing me to start fishtailing all over the road. Also had the effect of throwing a skunk into the middle of a prom party as those behind me scattered madly trying to avoid the impending catastrophe I surely presented. Managed to somehow slow to a stop without going down. I rode the rest of the way home trailing off the back of the pack with a back tire that was worn to the threads at the skid point.

Tacx shelved and the Arundels became the mainstay.

Also feel about the same on FSA cranks. Loose pedal inserts, less than stellar design requiring so much more attention than Shimano...

[Peter B]

<snip>

Oh yeah, another device I didn't get, the "Bone Phone". A radio you wore around your neck like a horse collar. the sound was transmitted via your collar bones so you heard the music thru your skeleton."

This thread is nothing without pictures.

[oldpotatoe]

I fail to see the difference to the cage/leather strap/cleat system that was common when they came out?!

Cinelli 'Death' pedals had a knob, when ya fell down, pushed the knob and released but were NOT like clips and straps.

[Dromen]

Front shifting on first gen Red is the worst I've experienced in 28 years of serious cycling. Finally replaced that Red f.der. with Force -- huge improvement.

Agreed. BUT, one pair of Praxis chainrings and a steel red FD improved front shifting immensely(75%?). Unlike others here i like sram products. I have 3 bikes with SRAM and all have Praxis Rings.

[Gummee]

Agreed. BUT, one pair of Praxis chainrings and a steel red FD improved front shifting immensely(75%?). Unlike others here i like sram products. I have 3 bikes with SRAM and all have Praxis Rings.

Wickwerks are mo bettah. :nod

I've got D/A (or CX70) front der.s on pretty much all my SRAM bikes. They just work so much better than the SRAM stuff. Note: I haven't really tried the yaw der. yet so can't comment on them.

M