Training and riding

[Ti Designs]

I'm the type of guy who's driven to always be the best at whatever I'm spending my time doing - that's just how I am. Most people don't see it that way, they just want to do what they're doing and be happy with it - that's just how they are. When those who are driven to be the best try to push their ideas on those who just want to enjoy what they're doing, they get labeled an asshole - been there, done that, why hasn't anyone gotten me the t-shirt yet???

This thread is about riding better and being more aware of what your body is doing on the bike - there are people on this forum who have asked me to do this. Outside of this thread I have no opinion about how you ride, I'm just happy that you ride. I have made it clear in the past that free advice is worth what you pay for it, my advice is worth exactly that. If you try my training advice and you become a better rider, beat up on your cycling buddies but don't say a word, it'll be our secret. If what I suggest doesn't work, I will refund the cost of the advice, minus a 10% restocking fee.

One last thing. I work with statistics and populations, try not to take things I say personally. When I say something like "humans don't do that well", I'm talking about that big lump in the center of the bell curve, not about you. In working with an individual you can be exact, in working with a sample set the best you can do is go with the higher percentage. Given this, everything I say is wrong [for someone], it' really helpful to understand that from the start.



OK, with that out of the way, when I take on a new coaching client we first talk about two things: Goals and starting points. Goals are simply what you're looking to do this season. It's hard to set up an intelligent training program without goals. When do you need to be fit? What are you doing? Does it require endurance? Does it require strength? Given the limited amount of training time most of us have, these are questions you really do need to answer first.

The starting point is tricky, most people aren't aware of little problems that find their way into your pedal stroke. I'm going to go over format for the one leg pedal stroke drill - a really good test for things like this. You need to be very aware of the differences from one side to the other. For example, in a low gear you're probably going to notice that one side drops to the bottom faster than the other. People spend a lot of time standing on one foot without realizing it, that's the side you rest your body weight on...

One leg pedal stroke drill: With the bike on a trainer and the front wheel a couple inches higher than the back, put the bike in the lowest gear, hold the bars at the tops. There will be weight on your hands because there's no way to take the weight off. Clip out with one side, put your heel on the trainer where it holds up the bike. You're thinking of tracing the circle, not pedaling the bike - slowly trace the circle, no speeding up or slowing down. 40 RPM's, electric motor smooth - that's way easier said than done. 1 minute each side, then clip in with both and just concentrate about getting both feet over the top of the pedal stroke. Bring up the speed and get the pedals over the top faster for 1 minute, then 2 minutes of just pedaling the bike, then repeat.

What you're going to notice is 1) it's way harder than you thought, 2) it's at the end of range of motion, if your bike isn't set up well you almost can't do this. 3) your left and right side don't react the same. Do NOT over do this drill, you never use the end range of motion of your hip flexors, I don't want you blaming me if you can't walk up the stairs the next day...

The feedback I'm looking for is how the two sides are different. In some cases if feels like one side is behind the other, in some cases the range of motion is far better on one side. If you get into a training program with a discrepancy, it gets worse - deal with it now.

[Steve in SLO]

Thanks in advance for the time, thought and effort you are going to put into this thread, Ti. I look forward to your insights.

[soulspinner]

I'm the type of guy who's driven to always be the best at whatever I'm spending my time doing - that's just how I am. Most people don't see it that way, they just want to do what they're doing and be happy with it - that's just how they are. When those who are driven to be the best try to push their ideas on those who just want to enjoy what they're doing, they get labeled an asshole - been there, done that, why hasn't anyone gotten me the t-shirt yet???

This thread is about riding better and being more aware of what your body is doing on the bike - there are people on this forum who have asked me to do this. Outside of this thread I have no opinion about how you ride, I'm just happy that you ride. I have made it clear in the past that free advice is worth what you pay for it, my advice is worth exactly that. If you try my training advice and you become a better rider, beat up on your cycling buddies but don't say a word, it'll be our secret. If what I suggest doesn't work, I will refund the cost of the advice, minus a 10% restocking fee.

One last thing. I work with statistics and populations, try not to take things I say personally. When I say something like "humans don't do that well", I'm talking about that big lump in the center of the bell curve, not about you. In working with an individual you can be exact, in working with a sample set the best you can do is go with the higher percentage. Given this, everything I say is wrong [for someone], it' really helpful to understand that from the start.



OK, with that out of the way, when I take on a new coaching client we first talk about two things: Goals and starting points. Goals are simply what you're looking to do this season. It's hard to set up an intelligent training program without goals. When do you need to be fit? What are you doing? Does it require endurance? Does it require strength? Given the limited amount of training time most of us have, these are questions you really do need to answer first.

The starting point is tricky, most people aren't aware of little problems that find their way into your pedal stroke. I'm going to go over format for the one leg pedal stroke drill - a really good test for things like this. You need to be very aware of the differences from one side to the other. For example, in a low gear you're probably going to notice that one side drops to the bottom faster than the other. People spend a lot of time standing on one foot without realizing it, that's the side you rest your body weight on...

One leg pedal stroke drill: With the bike on a trainer and the front wheel a couple inches higher than the back, put the bike in the lowest gear, hold the bars at the tops. There will be weight on your hands because there's no way to take the weight off. Clip out with one side, put your heel on the trainer where it holds up the bike. You're thinking of tracing the circle, not pedaling the bike - slowly trace the circle, no speeding up or slowing down. 40 RPM's, electric motor smooth - that's way easier said than done. 1 minute each side, then clip in with both and just concentrate about getting both feet over the top of the pedal stroke. Bring up the speed and get the pedals over the top faster for 1 minute, then 2 minutes of just pedaling the bike, then repeat.

What you're going to notice is 1) it's way harder than you thought, 2) it's at the end of range of motion, if your bike isn't set up well you almost can't do this. 3) your left and right side don't react the same. Do NOT over do this drill, you never use the end range of motion of your hip flexors, I don't want you blaming me if you can't walk up the stairs the next day...

The feedback I'm looking for is how the two sides are different. In some cases if feels like one side is behind the other, in some cases the range of motion is far better on one side. If you get into a training program with a discrepancy, it gets worse - deal with it now.

Gonna try this on the weekend. Been twenty plus years since I did one leggeds:rolleyes:

[markie]

Nice post...

So for those of us without trainers who still would like to play along at home. Are there any recommendations for the drill on a real bike (or a fixie) on the road.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm the type of guy who's driven to always be the best at whatever I'm spending my time doing - that's just how I am. Most people don't see it that way, they just want to do what they're doing and be happy with it - that's just how they are. When those who are driven to be the best try to push their ideas on those who just want to enjoy what they're doing, they get labeled an asshole - been there, done that, why hasn't anyone gotten me the t-shirt yet???

This thread is about riding better and being more aware of what your body is doing on the bike - there are people on this forum who have asked me to do this. Outside of this thread I have no opinion about how you ride, I'm just happy that you ride. I have made it clear in the past that free advice is worth what you pay for it, my advice is worth exactly that. If you try my training advice and you become a better rider, beat up on your cycling buddies but don't say a word, it'll be our secret. If what I suggest doesn't work, I will refund the cost of the advice, minus a 10% restocking fee.

One last thing. I work with statistics and populations, try not to take things I say personally. When I say something like "humans don't do that well", I'm talking about that big lump in the center of the bell curve, not about you. In working with an individual you can be exact, in working with a sample set the best you can do is go with the higher percentage. Given this, everything I say is wrong [for someone], it' really helpful to understand that from the start.



OK, with that out of the way, when I take on a new coaching client we first talk about two things: Goals and starting points. Goals are simply what you're looking to do this season. It's hard to set up an intelligent training program without goals. When do you need to be fit? What are you doing? Does it require endurance? Does it require strength? Given the limited amount of training time most of us have, these are questions you really do need to answer first.

The starting point is tricky, most people aren't aware of little problems that find their way into your pedal stroke. I'm going to go over format for the one leg pedal stroke drill - a really good test for things like this. You need to be very aware of the differences from one side to the other. For example, in a low gear you're probably going to notice that one side drops to the bottom faster than the other. People spend a lot of time standing on one foot without realizing it, that's the side you rest your body weight on...

One leg pedal stroke drill: With the bike on a trainer and the front wheel a couple inches higher than the back, put the bike in the lowest gear, hold the bars at the tops. There will be weight on your hands because there's no way to take the weight off. Clip out with one side, put your heel on the trainer where it holds up the bike. You're thinking of tracing the circle, not pedaling the bike - slowly trace the circle, no speeding up or slowing down. 40 RPM's, electric motor smooth - that's way easier said than done. 1 minute each side, then clip in with both and just concentrate about getting both feet over the top of the pedal stroke. Bring up the speed and get the pedals over the top faster for 1 minute, then 2 minutes of just pedaling the bike, then repeat.

What you're going to notice is 1) it's way harder than you thought, 2) it's at the end of range of motion, if your bike isn't set up well you almost can't do this. 3) your left and right side don't react the same. Do NOT over do this drill, you never use the end range of motion of your hip flexors, I don't want you blaming me if you can't walk up the stairs the next day...

The feedback I'm looking for is how the two sides are different. In some cases if feels like one side is behind the other, in some cases the range of motion is far better on one side. If you get into a training program with a discrepancy, it gets worse - deal with it now.

Happy New Year!!

Post number 14??

Yep-"if the pedals are turning, it's all good"

[kramnnim]

Thanks in advance for the time, thought and effort you are going to put into this thread, Ti. I look forward to your insights.

+1, ignore the haters.

If the two sides are different, what can one to even them out? Spend more time with one leg over the other?

[FlashUNC]

I hated one legged drills. What I thought was just another weird quirk of my college team's coach. Had us do them on rollers too and, eventually, out on the road.

By God they work though.

[jlwdm]

I'm the type of guy who's driven to always be the best at whatever I'm spending my time doing - that's just how I am. Most people don't see it that way, they just want to do what they're doing and be happy with it - that's just how they are. When those who are driven to be the best try to push their ideas on those who just want to enjoy what they're doing, they get labeled an asshole - been there, done that, why hasn't anyone gotten me the t-shirt yet???

....

Good luck. "Déjà vu all over again" - Yogi Berra.

I think people have essentially given you the t-shirt over the internet over and over again. Hopefully you can change your approach from the past.

Maybe your definition of the "best" is different than others. Also, taken to the extreme being the "best" at something, the way you seem to definite it for riding, takes away from being the best at other things and enjoying life. The I am better than you approach is not a great way to start.

It seems to me these threads have deteriorated in the past because you see one form of teaching and one stroke that fits every rider. But everyone is not the same. At the top levels in sports we see different pedal strokes, different throwing motions and different putting strokes. Your one stroke for everyone approach is why you get the reputation for pushing things down peoples' throats.

So think about your approach this time. Don't lose the helpful tips in your past heavy handed style of teaching. Otherwise we will just end up with frustration and your annual statement that you are never going to post on this forum again.

Again, good luck. This is my last post in this thread.

Jeff

[Ti Designs]

So for those of us without trainers who still would like to play along at home. Are there any recommendations for the drill on a real bike (or a fixie) on the road.

The trainer is a necessary evil. Time on a trainer will make you hate cycling, hate training and hate your saddle, but they are true isolation, and that's what's needed here. The trainer controls the resistance and eliminates all other variables, no cars, no hills, no wind... What I'm asking you to do is pay attention to an individual muscle while you pedal, it's kinda like driving down the road while paying close attention to what the spark plug in cylinder #2 is doing.

Not so long ago I had a bunch of loaner trainers for people who wanted to work on pedal stroke but didn't own a trainer. I learned two things from this. 1)Kids in school vanish at the end of the quarter, so does your trainer. 2)It's the cost of a good set of pedals...

Getting back to that first statement about trainers making you hate everything in life, you probably know someone who owns a trainer and hates it so much that they're just waiting for someone to pawn it off on...

Edit: Wait a second, you live out in Grafton, right? One of my loaner trainers is now living at Tufts!!

[Ti Designs]

It seems to me these threads have deteriorated in the past because you see one form of teaching and one stroke that fits every rider. But everyone is not the same. At the top levels in sports we see different pedal strokes, different throwing motions and different putting strokes.

Cyclists certainly do have different pedaling styles. It's their way to maximize the use of their own body. The trick is to understand what all of them are doing and see which methods work for you. What makes cycling different from most other sports is the machine that controls the motion - the pedal is going around the same circle, the rider can work with that or work against it. You'll find the one universal truth is that the good cyclists have found a way to work with it...

[Ti Designs]

If the two sides are different, what can one to even them out? Spend more time with one leg over the other?

Almost everybody finds the two sides to be different when starting this. Life creates imbalances in the body. You probably stand more on one foot than the other, when I shovel snow my right foot is always forward which means that side gets worked, the left side is just balance... The initial stage is just opening your eyes to what's really happening. Stage two is figuring out why. Don't be too quick to try to change or correct something, give the one leg drill some time. When I teach my classes, the one leg drill is a thunk-fest in the first week - nobody is getting the pedals over the top clean ('cept the one expert mountain biker, there's always one...), by the third week they're turning the pedals smoothly with one foot without really trying.

I've been known to make a few changes in position if the two sides don't even out. If there's clearly a difference in range of motion from one side to the other, or if there's been an injury or there's a functional leg length discrepancy, the body has to be adapted to the bike. That said, I can't see you pedaling, I'm going to leave those changes to the qualified fitter of your choice.

[redir]

Nice post...

So for those of us without trainers who still would like to play along at home. Are there any recommendations for the drill on a real bike (or a fixie) on the road.

I used to do drills like this on my track bike. Maybe it's considered cheating since the cranks always roll around but I could still get the same sense of balance and spin that Ti is talking about. You definitely want to find a very quiet road. I used a bike trail near me that is not busy and in fact when it's 20deg F out is almost deserted.

[markie]

Edit: Wait a second, you live out in Grafton, right? One of my loaner trainers is now living at Tufts!!

Yep! Great memory. I live about a mile from Tufts. I have not been on a trainer for more than 15 years. I cannot say I am thrilled about going back to it.

However, I would like to follow along with your training plan. I hope you keep these posts coming. Thanks!

[fiamme red]

Thankfully, I only have one experience with one-legged pedaling. I was riding my fixed-gear about 17 miles from home, and the left pedal spindle snapped (I managed to stay upright). Going home, on the flats I could feel that my pedal stroke was pretty uneven. There was one steep hill, where I had to get off and walk.

What did cyclists do to perfect their pedal stroke before stationary trainers were invented?

[Ti Designs]

I expected a lot more feedback about the one leg pedal stroke drill...

I teach a pedal stroke class at my shop, the first day is all one leg drills, all about hip flexors and muscle firing order. Every time I teach the class, most of the students are blown away by how hard it is to turn a crank with one leg with almost no resistance. You've seen people do it thousands of time, only with both feet on the pedals, why should it be this hard to do? What they're running into is called awareness - they have just become aware that their body doesn't know how to turn a circle.

Who cares? People don't really turn circles - so what? Why not just push harder, isn't that what the pros do? The answer is efficiency, the human body has a depressingly low power output potential. If you learn to be efficient on the bike you use most of the power you produce. If not you waste a lot, and the harder the effort gets the more you waste. Being efficient doesn't mean you produce less power, it means you waste less. Given the same ability, if rider A just works on fitness while rider B gains efficiency first and then works on fitness, rider B has a significant advantage over rider A. Learning the pedal stroke doesn't happen at high intensity, so working on efficiency first and fitness second works, working on fitness first and trying to gain efficiency later doesn't...

The reason I'm bumping this thread now is because of the other thread about trainers and workouts. There are lots of new workout tools, TrainerRoad.com is a good example. Given computer technology and power meters and trainers that both control resistance and feed back power, they can now sell structured workouts within a full season's training plan - brilliant! What's more, they can use image simulation to make it seem like you're out on a ride.

While I sell trainers and intro packages for TrianerRoad, I have a few issues with the assumptions made in their training plan. The first assumption most people make is that training harder will make me faster. Allow me to point something out. I coach a lot of riders, most of whom start racing at the beginning of March, but their first real focus is in May (collegiate nationals). They continue to gain speed and fitness until around July. Some time in late August things start to slow down, by September they're talking about ending their season. What would make you think that adding 3 more months of hard work is going to help??? Next question: Has anyone ever mistaken riding a trainer for being on the road? I have two reasons not to just try to simulate outdoor riding on your trainer all winter: 1) you can't. 2) you shouldn't.

Do you really think a killer hard workout in January is going to make any difference on your fitness come June??? It makes more sense to me to work on efficiency now, ramp up the fitness closer to the season. I pride myself on being the least fit person out there in December, most of my November workouts involved cooking and eating bacon (I love that part of the training plan). Thus far all I've done on the bike has been pedal stroke work, and a lot of it. I've trained my body to turn circles so well that I can sit on my trainer at 120 RPMs with my heart rate still in zone 2 for 15 minutes. That means any fitness that I do gain translates to power at the rear wheel, not wasted pushing the pedals in the wrong direction...

[ceolwulf]

Well, you got me doing one legged drills anyway. Don't have a trainer so do them on rollers in a low gear. So far main thing I've found out is that I need to do a lot more of them :) used to do these occasionally but that's been a few years.

Need to do some wind sprints too to get my cadence up. Too complacent at 90ish for too long.

[Tony]

I'm going to start the one legged drills today. I don't have a trainer or rollers so I'll do my best on the bike trail. Maybe some variation that will come close to your advise.
Thanks for taking your time and sharing.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Well, you got me doing one legged drills anyway. Don't have a trainer so do them on rollers in a low gear. So far main thing I've found out is that I need to do a lot more of them :) used to do these occasionally but that's been a few years.

Need to do some wind sprints too to get my cadence up. Too complacent at 90ish for too long.

I did them, but on the road on a long, flat section on a MUP (don't have a trainer). What I found is that my left leg couldn't complete one minute in a 39x19 gear, but my right leg could (just barely). In fact, all I was able to get out of my left leg was 38 seconds.

So I've got a major imbalance in power in my legs.

[jamie789]

Ok. I'm going to start doing 1 legged drills too. This is the first winter I'm actually trying to train, thank you for the information and insite.

[leftyfreak]

Who cares? People don't really turn circles - so what? Why not just push harder, isn't that what the pros do? The answer is efficiency, the human body has a depressingly low power output potential. If you learn to be efficient on the bike you use most of the power you produce. If not you waste a lot, and the harder the effort gets the more you waste. Being efficient doesn't mean you produce less power, it means you waste less. Given the same ability, if rider A just works on fitness while rider B gains efficiency first and then works on fitness, rider B has a significant advantage over rider A. Learning the pedal stroke doesn't happen at high intensity, so working on efficiency first and fitness second works, working on fitness first and trying to gain efficiency later doesn't...


This paragraph is the perfect distillation of why Ti Designs' approach makes sense to me. I took his pedal stroke class last year, and have been thrilled with the results.

As a music teacher, saxophone to be specific, I regularly see that one of the biggest challenges students face is understanding that we need to slow down in order to improve. The students who take the time to learn HOW to move their fingers and aim to play with perfect technique at slower tempos are the students who end up being able to play the fastest, most challenging musical passages. The ones who play fast all the time inevitably never get it right, usually sound sloppy, and often end up with injuries.

So, when I decided I wanted to improve my cycling, it was logical to me make the goal to learn to pedal WELL. By focusing on that, I ended up getting faster, stronger and more comfortable on my bike, and was able to ride a century in the White Mts., climb Mt. Greylock, and to consider riding a VT four or six gap route this year. How cool is that?

Thanks Ti Designs!

[HenryA]

Pay attention.
This is good stuff.

[moose8]

Is one legged drills on rollers with a forkstand a good substitute if I don't have a trainer? It seems the same principles but I don't really know. I'm going to try though.

[Waldo]

Ti Designs, what do you think about Power Cranks and their use in improving one's pedal stroke?

[timto]

One leg pedal stroke drill: With the bike on a trainer and the front wheel a couple inches higher than the back, put the bike in the lowest gear, hold the bars at the tops. There will be weight on your hands because there's no way to take the weight off. Clip out with one side, put your heel on the trainer where it holds up the bike. You're thinking of tracing the circle, not pedaling the bike - slowly trace the circle, no speeding up or slowing down. 40 RPM's, electric motor smooth - that's way easier said than done. 1 minute each side, then clip in with both and just concentrate about getting both feet over the top of the pedal stroke. Bring up the speed and get the pedals over the top faster for 1 minute, then 2 minutes of just pedaling the bike, then repeat.



Wow crazy amount of thunk thunk thunking at the top of the stroke on both legs. one leg way worse than other! Hip flexors are beat!

[Ti Designs]

Ti Designs, what do you think about Power Cranks and their use in improving one's pedal stroke?

Oh how I hate Power Cranks... Years ago one of my Harvard riders got a set, gave himself tendonitis, lent them to another team member who did the same thing. The purpose of the one leg pedal stroke drill is to teach the rider how to unweight the pedal, not to use the hip flexor to generate power - it can't. The muscle itself is tiny, the connective tissue isn't strong enough and it's working at it's end of range of motion. The combination of those three things means generating power with your hip flexors is a sure way to injure yourself. The goal of the one leg pedal stroke drill is to round over the top of the pedal stroke. What you do in the rest of your life is about weight on your feet - you almost always have some weight on your feet. Your brain says this is normal. Weight on the foot as the pedal is going down is called power - that's good. Weight on the back side of the pedal stroke subtracts power from the other side. If there's thunking going on when you start the one leg pedal stroke drills, it means your normal pedaling method was to leave weight on the pedal and let the other side push it over. There's another advantage, if the pedal pushes your foot over the top it's also lifting the hip. At high RPMs most people start bouncing because the pedal pushes the foot up too fast and also takes the hip off the saddle. Clean up the top of your pedal stroke and your spin gets faster.

My goal for many of my riders in January is to generate the smoothest, fastest spin. This has nothing to do with power yet, we haven't even discussed the two large muscle groups that generate power. Simply put, you can't get to early spring with too much leg speed, too much strength or too much endurance. This is the third of the program that most people skip...

[AngryScientist]

so ed:

i spend a lot of time in the winter on a spin bike, and when i ride the trainer or my rollers, i usually ride my fixed gear bike.

is the fixed drivetrain helping if i try these one leg drills, or cheating the exercise?

[weisan]

Eons ago when I actually care enough about performance and improving my pedal strokes, I follow a simple routine taught to me by a former national champ. It's pretty straightforward, during winter time, get on your rollers three times a week, spin for 2X20 mins, try not to fall below 90 rpm the whole time, maintain front tire on a center marker, try not to stray sideways. Do that for three months, come Spring time, you are ready baby!

[Waldo]

Well, for what it's worth, I tried them a few years ago and worked up to 2.5-hour rides on them. I also wrecked my hip flexors and gave them up. Recently, wondered again about their usefulness. Thanks for dissuading me from them.

Oh how I hate Power Cranks... Years ago one of my Harvard riders got a set, gave himself tendonitis, lent them to another team member who did the same thing. The purpose of the one leg pedal stroke drill is to teach the rider how to unweight the pedal, not to use the hip flexor to generate power - it can't. The muscle itself is tiny, the connective tissue isn't strong enough and it's working at it's end of range of motion. The combination of those three things means generating power with your hip flexors is a sure way to injure yourself. The goal of the one leg pedal stroke drill is to round over the top of the pedal stroke. What you do in the rest of your life is about weight on your feet - you almost always have some weight on your feet. Your brain says this is normal. Weight on the foot as the pedal is going down is called power - that's good. Weight on the back side of the pedal stroke subtracts power from the other side. If there's thunking going on when you start the one leg pedal stroke drills, it means your normal pedaling method was to leave weight on the pedal and let the other side push it over. There's another advantage, if the pedal pushes your foot over the top it's also lifting the hip. At high RPMs most people start bouncing because the pedal pushes the foot up too fast and also takes the hip off the saddle. Clean up the top of your pedal stroke and your spin gets faster.

My goal for many of my riders in January is to generate the smoothest, fastest spin. This has nothing to do with power yet, we haven't even discussed the two large muscle groups that generate power. Simply put, you can't get to early spring with too much leg speed, too much strength or too much endurance. This is the third of the program that most people skip...

[Ti Designs]

i spend a lot of time in the winter on a spin bike, and when i ride the trainer or my rollers, i usually ride my fixed gear bike.

is the fixed drivetrain helping if i try these one leg drills, or cheating the exercise?

Any given tool is good for some jobs, not so good for others. The point of the one leg drill is to develop a muscle firing order which traces the pedal circle. In other words, anything that's helping out is really masking problems. The fixed gear adds the inertia of the wheel times the gear ratio to the system. Let's say you had a wheel that weighed 500 grams, if you spin that wheel you would notice any problems with the bearings. If you had a wheel that weigher 500 pounds and you spin it, the bearings could be many times worse and you would never notice.

One of the interesting things about the one leg pedal stroke drill is that it gets harder to do as you go to lighter and lighter resistance. Many of my sprinters can do it smoothly on the trainer without the roller touching the rear wheel.

As you brought up Spin bikes, I should probably cover them as well - another great training tool, but very different. My biggest concern with Spin bikes is injury - the same thing goes for riding a fixed gear. In a perfect world of cycling, your muscles fire in the right sequence and your foot moves the pedal around the circle. That's what the body is designed to do. When the pedals start moving your body around things start going wrong. For example, if the pedal is pushing your foot up from 9:00 to 12:00, the tension across the patellar tendon increases rapidly, increasing sheer force. The body doesn't deal well with this, it's defense to something pulling on connective tissue is called a pull reflex, it contracts. The pull reflex is the muscle's defense mechanism against damage, but in this case it's increasing the tension at the attachment points. This is a very long winded way of saying that when something manipulates the body, things go wrong... Watch the people in Spin classes who never increase the tension, the pedals are yanking their feet around, tearing tendons and ligaments off their bones. Don't do that. If on the other hand you can do the one leg pedal stroke drill with almost no resistance and keep it smooth, you can also pedal a Spin bike without fear in injury.

So why did I call Spin bikes a great training tool? Trainers have limitations. How much resistance you can crank in is limited by how much inertia is stored in the system. Climbing out of the saddle is a technique that I find takes a lot of practice to settle into. It's also a technique that's very well suited to the spin bike with it's 40 pounds of flywheel and huge step-up gear. Now if they could only do something about the music...

[Tony]

I found out today doing one legged drills that my left shoe doesn't fit as well as my right shoe. Also, its really hard on your ass as well as getting numb if your doing it without a trainer. Anyways, it was great workout and I'm going to keep doing it, maybe just stay clipped in as I do my circles with the working leg as I relax the non working leg.

[cmg]

thanks for bringing up this topic. i'm going to it a go, have the front wheel about 2 inches higher than the rear. Cool, friends are going to be thinking i'm trying to learn how to climb.. thanks

[bcm119]

I like one legged drills. The neuromuscular benefit is apparent after you've done a few reps on each side, then clip both feet in and spin normally. The cranks feel about 10cm long.

[fuzzalow]

Good work on doing this thread Ti Designs.

I agree that the winter, or off season as applicable to the global hemisphere in which you live, is the best time to do form and efficiency based pedal stroke work. The luxury of time allows learning. No different than playing a musical instrument - practice gradual & slow to build up to be fluid & fast. What this means for an instrument is that the notes & phrasing doesn't sound forced because a player strains to keep the beat. What this means to a cyclist is that the pedal stroke holds fluidity and efficiency under increased cadence and increased RPE (Rate of Percieved Exertion) because practice has refined the firing sequence of the L & R drive pulse to be steady and synchronized.

A cyclist that is not mindful of developing as good a pedal stroke as is reasonable to do is just leaving wattage on the table.

[benb]

So I've been doing these for years, most cycling training books recommend it, although they are not as specific as you are about the protocol. I usually never do more than 2 minutes per side (2x 1 min, or 4x 30 sec) in a trainer workout, and I have occasionally done it out on the road or trail too.

What I haven't been doing is reducing the gear/power requirements to near 0 while I do it, and I haven't been raising the front wheel. I have a Tacx trainer, I typically set it to around 100 watts to do these drills. I can usually maintain a smooth stroke without "thunking" for close to a minute, but once leg is of course worse than the other. I usually aim for 90rpm, it starts out pretty easy and then becomes harder to maintain 90rpm as the time gets closer to 1 minute. Lately since I haven't been on the trainer that long I've been doing 30 seconds instead, which is much easier to stay smooth.

What is the benefit of raising the front wheel, and what is the benefit of shooting for 40rpm with 0 load? (I will give this a try of course) I haven't had a fixie for almost 10 years at this point, and I haven't had rollers for years either, but I kind of feel like these 1 leg drills are actually more beneficial. When I rode a fixie it was very obvious the pedals were driving my legs at some points in the pedal stroke.

You mention the leg tightening up on the upstroke causing stress on the patellar tendon.. I notice this on the trainer vastly moreso than on the road, even when pedaling with both legs. Any other tips to try and help relax the leg on the upstroke?

[BobbyJones]

I'm in the opposite camp. Powercranks have been instrumental in my rehab and prevention of hip flexor issues for the past 5 years.

So to me, very useful.

Well, for what it's worth, I tried them a few years ago and worked up to 2.5-hour rides on them. I also wrecked my hip flexors and gave them up. Recently, wondered again about their usefulness. Thanks for dissuading me from them.

[deechee]

Thanks for the drill. I'll have to play with this more.

You're right, doing 40rpms with low resistance was horrible. The initial few seconds were ok since I had the inertia of the flywheel to overcome, but once unweighted, it felt like my leg below my knee was just hanging on. It felt really weird. I invariably kept trying to creep up to 40-60rpm.

My left leg was much better although still quite bad. Its weird because I thought that hip was the weaker of the two.

[weisan]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/pioneer-endurance.jpg

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=116433id=116433

[bluto]

before i get started like to add my thanks to OP for doing this

now, last night on my commute home i tried this in the recommended gear and i couldn't stop the momentum "lunge forward" so to speak without with every downstroke. I also had a tendenancy to elevate my rpm gradually to the point where i was bouncing and not able to keep it consistent.

are these exercises best done on trainer specifically to have much more controlled environment?

[gospastic]

Am I supposed to be seated while doing this?

[benb]

Am I supposed to be seated while doing this?

LOL.. absolutely. It'd be almost impossible standing.

[FlashUNC]

are these exercises best done on trainer specifically to have much more controlled environment?

In my experience a trainer helps, but I've done it on the road before with teammates on a fairly flat stretch of lightly traffic'd road as part of a warm-up. Just need to be more careful about where that spare foot is.

[kramnnim]

LOL.. absolutely. It'd be almost impossible standing.

Standing one legged drills... :eek:

[ceolwulf]

Standing one legged drills... :eek:


That would definitely earn you a cast-iron hard man card :)

[gospastic]

Wow, no wonder I was having so much trouble!

[MattTuck]

Will be doing one legged drills tonight. Perhaps I'll record the video and post it so you can all laugh at me.

[DRZRM]

OK, given how much TD helped with my standing climbing with a quick but effective sentence during a group ride out of Belmont Wheelworks, I'm pulling out my trainer tonight to give this a try. I'll spare you all the video evidence.

[Ti Designs]

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=116433id=116433

See also the pattern of force generation with my left leg. It’s really quite good, with red through the 11 o’clock zone and also at 12 o’clock or top dead centre.

And by quite good, he means dismal. The efficiency is COS(pedal direction - force direction). In other words, force at 90 degrees to the crank is 100% efficient, force at 0 degrees is 0% efficient. The summation of the magnitudes is the total work done. Multiply the magnitudes by their efficiency and add them all up and you get power output.

The graphs are pretty normal - I've looked at lots of date from all sorts of studies on pedal stroke. What kills me is the "we can't do anything to change this" attitude. There have been a number of studies where participants have been given instruction on how to pedal - to me this shows that the people who are running the study don't understand motor learning in the least. Given 15 minutes (the amount of instruction given), you can figure out that you're really not good at doing the one leg pedal stroke drill. Given a few weeks of practice, you can get better at it. The one leg pedal stoke drill is only the beginning of leaning the whole pedal stroke, my pedal stroke program goes over 4 muscle groups, limiting duty cycle of each one to where it produces efficient power at the pedal. Somehow all of the studies I know about have ignored the fact that you probably should learn a subject before you get tested on it.

I was asked not to participate in one study of the pedal stroke at Harvard because I was "somehow cheating". I was almost 30% more efficient than most other people they tested. Last I checked, efficiency isn't on the UCI's list of banned substances...

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Ed,

Not trying to jump ahead of what you're doing here, just trying to understand where power should be (and shouldn't be) applied during the pedal stroke. Is it from 1 to 4 or 5 o'clock, then unweight the pedals on the very bottom (6 o'clock) and the upstroke? And how does rounding out the top of the pedal stroke factor into this? It feels like I start to re-engage my muscles at about 11 o'clock when rounding out the stroke at the top.

Thank you so much for lending your insight here. I really appreciate it.

[lukasz]

This is really cool! I'm subscribing.

[Ti Designs]

Not trying to jump ahead of what you're doing here, just trying to understand where power should be (and shouldn't be) applied during the pedal stroke. Is it from 1 to 4 or 5 o'clock, then unweight the pedals on the very bottom (6 o'clock) and the upstroke? And how does rounding out the top of the pedal stroke factor into this? It feels like I start to re-engage my muscles at about 11 o'clock when rounding out the stroke at the top.

Getting ahead of ourselves, but it's a fair question. The real trick is to understand the answer without trying to skip steps...

My pedal stroke program is about breaking the pedal stroke down into four quadrants and learning how to use the best muscle to push the pedal at that point within the circle. Most people never give much thought to what goes wrong within a pedal stroke, they just think "push harder". The most common complaint I hear is "my quads burn while climbing hills". That's not because they're working harder, it's because they are trying to use muscles in a way that doesn't work. They think "push harder", but what they really do is push longer. They fire their quads from 11:00 all the way down to 6:00, sometimes more. That's greater than 50% duty cycle, on time is greater than off time. Funny thing about muscles, they don't get blood flow under tension. So, by doing that they are starving their muscles of oxygen, that burning they feel is called an anaerobic state. They would be much better off only using muscles where they can push the pedal in the right direction - quads extend the lower leg from the knee, there is always a forward component. Once the crank reaches 3:00, there's no forward component to the pedal stroke - there's no advantage to using the quad at that point. The glutes extend the femur from the hip, they can only push down - think 1:30 to 4:30. The pedal stroke program is about learning where each muscle has to fire, and limiting it's use to just that part of the pedal stroke. That should drop the duty cycle of each muscle group down below 35%, so it's sustainable.

When you ask where the power is in the pedal stroke, I have to ask under what condition? The glutes are capable of generating huge amounts of torque, but given that you have to leverage your body weight, they are limited in RPMs by gravity. On the other hand, the force generated by the quads is anchored at the saddle, there's almost no limit to how fast you can push the pedals over the top. They don't generate the torque that the glutes produce. So, there are two large muscle groups that generate power - they are very different. When we get into isolation drills, you'll realize that you can burn one set of muscles, then just switch to the other.

Intervals are the advanced class - one reason I don't get behind TrainerRoad's interval workout is that an interval is a series of muscle recruitments, if you don't have each individual part you can't make the whole thing work. How do you produce maximum power for 30 seconds? It starts with a shift to a much higher gear and a slowing of the pedals - what you need is lots of torque. That means glutes, it means throwing the body weight at the pedals and using the glutes to transfer that force to the pedals. After just a few pedal strokes you reach the limits of what throwing the body weight at the pedals can do = you need more leg speed. That's where the quads come in. The glutes are still active pushing down, but the quads push over the top, increasing the cadence. Get all of that in the wrong order and it doesn't work very well.

Like I said, we're getting way ahead of ourselves. The one leg pedal stroke drill is as much about unlearning bad habits as it is about using the hip flexors.

[MattTuck]

Ed,

I finished the first attempt at one legged drills as you described.

Round 1, I was able to complete 1 minute on each leg.

My left leg did about 60 RPM. My right leg was 42 RPM. I found that I could really only avoid the clunking over the top at the end if I looked down at my pedaling foot and concentrated on it 100%.

Round 2, I gave up after about 30 seconds. This may be inconsistent with your approach, but I took a weight lifting approach in that once my form started to break down, I stopped. Same as Round 1, my left leg had a higher cadence.

Did 2 30 second drills for each leg. Was definitely feeling it in my hip flexors.

Afterward, the soreness/ache was actually in my left calf. Not sure what that means, but you wanted feedback, so there you go :)

How often should I do this drill over the next 7 days?

[cmg]

round 1, left leg was more clunky over the top than the right. around 40rpm or slower. legs were burning at the end.

round 2, i got the right to be slightly smooth out at least when compared to the left . didn't complete the minute on the left.

round 3, lots of burn both legs didn't finish the minute. left was really spotty and the right was slightly better.

clipped in both legs after a bit and spun for another 10 minutes. yep, an eye opener. so How often should I do this drill over the next 7 days?

[HenryA]

This stuff is a lot of fun while the weather is bad.
Do it.
Its good for you.

[bluto]

I too tried doing this drill again but not on road, this time on trainer.

I was completely amazed at fact i could only do this for about a minute before it became painful.

Not trying to derail or discredit the OP, but i'm not sure how a minute to two minute drill can help my performance. Are these drills done with hopes of one day being able to sustain for 5mins or more, OR, are they simply to try and engage a muscle group to get feel and then apply to standard workout?

[yummygooey]

i tried this out yesterday. wow, it's hard!

did a first set at 60s and the second set at 30s. hip flexors were definitely feeling it. like MattTuck, i found that i could really only avoid clunking over the top (both legs) if i was staring at my foot and focusing 100%.

[Ti Designs]

Not trying to derail or discredit the OP, but i'm not sure how a minute to two minute drill can help my performance. Are these drills done with hopes of one day being able to sustain for 5mins or more, OR, are they simply to try and engage a muscle group to get feel and then apply to standard workout?

I'll go with B. I can do the drill for 5 minutes at a time, but I can't remember the last time I took a 5 minute ride. The drill isn't sustainable, any exercise using the overload theory isn't sustainable. It's harder than what you ask your hip flexors to do when you ride, but there are reasons. First, much of the problem isn't the work being done, it's the range of motion. If your position on the bike uses your full range of motion, the one leg drill is reaching end range of motion. It's the same range of motion as when both feet are clipped in, but with only one foot you don't have the luxury of the other side pushing it over. The real advantage gained with the one leg drill can be seen with both feet clipped in. If you get the pedal over the top instead of having the other side push that foot over the top, the hip doesn't get lifted out of the saddle and you pedal smoother at higher RPMs

Let's just go over basic format again:

1 minute right side only, slow enough that inertia isn't controlling the pedal, no slowing down or speeding up (listen for a consistent sound from the trainer), keep the feet level.

1 minute left side only - same.

1 minute both feet, ignore the down part of the pedal stroke, just think about getting the pedals over the top faster. Bring up the speed until you start to bounce in the saddle - it's all about getting those feet over the top faster.

If you do this enough, you'll find you are smoother on the pedals and your cadence goes up. More to the point, you can sit there at what was your high cadence with your heart rate lower. With the riders I'm coaching, I'm having them do 20 minute high cadence tests and seeing where their heart rate winds up. At the end of the month they'll do the same test. The difference in those numbers is what they've gained in efficiency within the pedal stroke.

This also translates to lower back comfort. Any bouncing in the saddle, or and downward pressure on the pedal as it comes over the top of the pedal stroke moves the SI joint, which then sends that energy up the spine in the form of torsion. Eliminate those forces and the bike becomes a whole lot more comfortable.

[katematt]

I tried this on the rollers and things did not go to well. Didn't wind up on the ground, but things were not smooth at all. In fact I heard all sort of different sounds and at certain points of the stroke I thought I was going to bottom out on the rim.

I'm going trainer and build from there.

Great concept and thanks for the effort Ti.

[Ti Designs]

By now I would expect a few people to be on their third or fourth workout using the one leg drills, so I'm expecting the "it gets a lot easier" feedback. Well, that and holding high RPMs in a low gear also gets easier and smoother.

The next segment is hard to explain well, but easy to show, so it's time to start using video. I am setting up my training area and adding good lighting, should be ready to start the video segments this week.

[MattTuck]

Ed,

Is this an every day work out? I've done 2 (was away over the weekend), and the 2nd was only marginally easier. was able to do 3 full 1 minute drills with each leg.

I'm actually just doing 40 revolutions with each leg, as I am really focusing on keeping the cadence low, and I'm usually between 53-60 seconds.

[Tony]

By now I would expect a few people to be on their third or fourth workout using the one leg drills, so I'm expecting the "it gets a lot easier" feedback. Well, that and holding high RPMs in a low gear also gets easier and smoother.

The next segment is hard to explain well, but easy to show, so it's time to start using video. I am setting up my training area and adding good lighting, should be ready to start the video segments this week.

I've been doing your one legged drills and REALLY looking forward to this next segment!!
Thanks!

[Bostic]

I've been doing these the past few days on my commute to work. This must be the one thing that translates well from playing double bass drums in heavy metal bands for many years. My hip flexors are not hurting.

[CaptStash]

I did the one legged drills yesterday on the trainer. I didn't do them quite right because I left the gearing on a harder setting and let the cadence stay in the 80's. (Because I didn't re-read the way to do the drill before I rode. D'oh!). I did five sets of one minute each leg on six minute centers and spun in between. Afterwards I rode hard with cadence in the 90's to complete and hou on the bike.

I found that it was slightly harder to do with my right leg, and that as I got tired (second half of the minute) I had more problems keeping from "clinking" as I went over the top. Next time I'll follow the drill more accurately and try to really stay smooth all of the way around. One thing I found was that I seemed to smooth out if I took pressure off the pedals, which is somewhat counter-intuitive. No soreness or weird aches and pains today (rode my 1X).

Ed, any comments on the "easing up?"

Saul aka CaptStash....

[Md3000]

Hi, only my first post but have been following some of the threads here with great interest! I've done the drill 5 times now. First time my cadence was in the 80s (didn't read the instructions right) and noticed my right leg was slightly better than my left. (I'm left footed so this surprised me). The other sessions I did 5x60 seconds for each foot at 40 rpm. I found it very difficult to go that slow so I would end up around 50-60 towards the end of the minute. Now I found the left foot was much better at completing a sort of fluid circle and noticed I especially practiced on power exertion between 7 and 11 o clock. When I ride uphill and get tired I start "spinning" more and use the upstroke more than stepping hard on the pedals, that's what this drill reminds me of. The right foot improves much slower than left but they're both getting used to "the circle".

Looking forward to the video

[DRZRM]

Hey Ed,

I've done this twice and I have two questions (my results were pretty much as predicted, left leg is better than the right, hard not to clunk over the top. Very interesting). Is the ideal to minimize resistance altogether? Should one use the quick release to disengage the roller from the wheel entirely or is low gear with resistance from the trainer better? I took out the trainer resistance entirely the second time I did the exercise , and while my results were similar, I felt like I could focus on keeping the stroke smooth a little better.

Second, should this be a daily exercise? Every other day? What the ideal?

Thanks for doing this, looking forward to the next episode.

[Raffy]

I did these one legged drills to break the monotony of my zone 2 trainer ride yesterday. It really is way harder than you initially think.....my main problem is that I clunk on the top almost every time. The rest of the pedal stroke I can do smoothly with a little bit of focus but can still improve.

My question is: how do I work to smoothen out the clunk at the top? Will it just come with time and repetition?

Thanks again for putting this thread up, Ti!

[katematt]

I did the drill the right way this morning. I made it 30 seconds on each leg before the clunking just after the bottom was consistent for every stroke. I think both legs performed the same regarding time, clunking and pain. The upper thighs were burning, but early in the interval it was very interesting to see how a circle with no clunking done correctly felt.

40 RPM albeit not the full minute felt the best.

Can just build from here.

[Tony]

I've been doing the one legged drills for a week now and making a concentrated effort to draw circles with my pedal stroke.
My new bike has a sound coming from the left crank arm. The harder you press as you come over the top the louder the noise. If I hold the front brake and push down on the left crank arm slowly as I increase pressure the louder it get...Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti.... Yesterday while riding with my wife I wanted her to try my bike. The noise was a least 50% louder while she was pedaling. When I got back on the bike the noise was much quieter while still traveling at the same speed. I'm not sure what this means, thinking these drills are helping me pedal more efficiently!

[MattTuck]

Second, should this be a daily exercise? Every other day? What the ideal?


+1. how often should we be doing this Ed?

[Ti Designs]

Is the ideal to minimize resistance altogether?

Going to no resistance makes it much harder because it gets away from you. Zero resistance (no roller attached to the wheel) is the best test of how smooth you really are, and my sprinters can do that smoothly, but that's a whole lotta work.

It gets harder with less resistance because your body feeds back information about where your foot is based on a string of muscles under tension. Take away that tension and it's all just down to a muscle firing sequence. Ideally it would be just the muscle firing sequence, and you would be able to do it smoothly without any resistance, for now just enough resistance to stay in contact is probably best. Once you've done this for a bit, play around with more resistance. As you have to pull your foot around harder it gets easier to stay smooth (this is kinda cheating) but you may also notice differences in strength between the two sides.

Second, should this be a daily exercise? Every other day? What the ideal?

To start with, you could certainly do this every day. Because the hip flexors don't get used to end range of motion in normal life, the workouts are limited in time. As you get better at this the workouts can get too long to do every day, but the saving grace is that it's way past the point of diminishing returns, so you don't have to. Keep in mind that nobody is getting up a hill using their hip flexors... The other nice thing is it comes back faster each time. This year in a matter of two weeks I went from 1 minute per side to 5 minutes per side and it's all very well balanced - a few years ago that would have been a real struggle.

[DRZRM]

Thanks Ed,

Four days in of doing it exactly as prescribed and it is certainly feeling smoother. I still clunk sometimes, but generally I can avoid it for the first 30 turns on one foot.

There was certainly an a-ha moment when spinning faster with both feet clipped in and and normal resistance. Once I start pulling/kicking my foot over the top I want to increase resistance and speed, then after a few minutes (2-3 right now) the awkwardness of the movement overcomes my increased efficiency and I start pushing again, and I immediately want to downshift. Feels like if I can just make that movement feel natural, it would be a huge change.

I'm way too old to ever get fast, but I'm intrigued by getting a bit faster. Waiting with baited breath for the next installments. When are your actual spinning classes starting up there at the shop?

[Ti Designs]

First three segments of my video pedal stroke program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k712Jzi6g9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wIhF3JWk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXaVk7dCowM

[Tony]

Well done videos!!
I was always taught to pedal as if I'm scraping crap off my shoe. I've never really pedaled circles until your instructions. These one legged drills are changing the way I view pedaling and riding my bike.
Thank you!

[wallymann]

I expected a lot more feedback about the one leg pedal stroke drill...

one word: powercranks!

on the trainer. great for my post spinal surgery rehab .... left leg had to completely re-learn how to pedal after some damaged nerves. PCs were indispensable in that case.

that said, after getting my pedalstroke re-grooved I sold them. never had an injury problem but I developed such a strong upstroke that it became an issue getting really-really sore sit-bones after 3-4 hours on the sadde! basically that drove me off the PCs.

I'm gonna do the drills this week to see how well my pedalstroke has stood up in the post-PC era.

[cmg]

thanks. the videos answered some questions. i did the toes down.

[FritzWhite]

I second the power cranks. I never had a set, but I talked to someone that did for a long time about them on a ride. He was strong and kept talking about how great they are and they make sense when you think about it anyway

I used to like doin those one legged drills. They're really good on the trainer or a stretch of road with a steady grade:bike:

[texbike]

First three segments of my video pedal stroke program:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k712Jzi6g9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wIhF3JWk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXaVk7dCowM

Ed,

Thanks for putting in the effort to do these videos and for supplying the guidance. I'm giving it a go myself.

Texbike

[Ti Designs]

A bit more content...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klc78RaKU9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw8mOEZX7FE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyb_rUPaNfE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD1nbvsWXUY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7oIXKKfOTk

[Exonerv]

Ed,

I'm new to one leg pedaling drills and employed them for the first time this morning before/after a 1 hour trainer session where I focused on trying to maintain the goal of an efficient pedal stroke throughout. I noticed it was much easier to perform the drill at the end of the session. The additional videos on positioning are clear and concise. Thanks for posting this. I look forward to following along.

I was curious about your earlier statement about the expert MTB'er having developed a high level of efficiency. Any ideas on why high level MTB'ers appear to have intuitively learned something that may evade roadies?

I read another post elsewhere postulating that trainer workouts may be more tiring than road rides with similar wattage outputs because the constant resistance on the trainer tends to fatigue certain muscle groups over others (perhaps because we're overloading certain muscle groups - and as such are even less efficient on trainer rides?) I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Do you intend on taking us through all 4 muscle groups you mention as comprising the pedal stroke? Hope so!

Again, really glad you're sharing your insights...

[Ti Designs]

I think the reason some mountain bikers have an easy time with the one leg pedal stroke drill is they don't always have the luxury of having solid ground under them to push down on. If I'm riding up a hill, my body weight is on the pedals and I'm using the largest muscle group I have to generate torque. If a mountain biker is going up a hill that happens to be loose rock, they can't use the same technique, they use a lower gear and turn circles.

As for trainer workouts being harder, I can tell you that they suck the will to live out of you... It's different, on the road you have your body weight moving forward, so how you best power the bike is different if you're at speed on the flats or if you're going up a hill. The trainer probably has a small aluminum disk to simulate the energy of your body moving forward, if falls short.

The trainer is a tool, use if for what it's good for, don't try to make it what it's not. Lots of people are looking for a trainer that "feels like riding on the road". Can you imagine anyone mistaking one for the other? The trainer is true isolation, it's the ability to simulate hills you don't have access to. It's the ability to point out problems in your pedal stroke...

Each year MIT puts on a triathlon expo in the spring, and they have an indoor TT. People show up with their aero bikes and go at it - what's the point of being aero if you're on a trainer??? I sent one of my riders there, told her to use a monster gear and stand on the pedals, start to finish. We had done workouts where we were out of the saddle for extended times - she took second at Mt Washington a few times. She won.

[Ti Designs]

Do you intend on taking us through all 4 muscle groups you mention as comprising the pedal stroke? Hope so!

I haven't even gotten to the pedal stroke class yet, still covering the basics of fit and going over what I hope people will try at home.

My pedal stroke class covers four muscle groups in a specific order. I go hip flexors, glutes, quads, hamstrings. When I do a fitting I have to cover the use of the glutes because it's the basis for position on the bike, body weight on the pedals and no weight on the bars. When I teach the class I do the one leg pedal stroke drill first because I need it working by the time we cover use of the quads...

[slidey]

Seeing your videos I understand why Nick was referring to you as much more personable in real-life. The videos are a great idea - for one, if demonstrates what you've been trying to hammer in for a very long time, but more importantly for someone like me who found your advice more out of turn than helpful, I'll at least be able to attach a sense of voice modulation/logic when I read your posts and understand where you're coming from and actually gain something from your technique.

Looking forward to eating my own words, just as soon as I find the time enough to implement the techniques in your videos!

[xeladragon]

Great stuff, Ed. Thanks for posting these.

Quick question: In your last video about ROM, you can't do the one-legged drill with your hands in the drops without rocking your hips. But isn't that your normal bike setup? Wouldn't a proper position on the bike allow you to ride in the drops without rocking your hips?

Thanks!

[2LeftCleats]

Really appreciate these videos. Visual presentation makes all the difference.

[Ti Designs]

Quick question: In your last video about ROM, you can't do the one-legged drill with your hands in the drops without rocking your hips. But isn't that your normal bike setup? Wouldn't a proper position on the bike allow you to ride in the drops without rocking your hips?

There are a couple of good answers to that. The first is simply that it's January and my lower back flexibility is as bad as it ever gets. Given a few months of base mileage it'll be better. That's not really the answer 'cause in season I switch to a -17 degree stem to lower the bars. I use the drops for two things, lowering my center of gravity and sprinting. In lowering my center of gravity I really don't want to be limited by my range of motion. Sprinting is a specific technique which uses a specific position. Unlike most of what I teach which is all about using body weight to generate sustainable power at the pedals, sprinting is about using two points on the bike as leverage. very often the sprinting position is outside of the rider's range of motion, which is fine 'cause using two points of leverage (handlebars and pedals) means eliminating the third point (saddle).

When I first went to Serotta Fit School, their theory was to set the bike up with the drops as the primary position, so when they fit me they wanted to raise my bars by 10cm. If you go to my dynamic position video, you'll notice I'm looking for an almost horizontal position adjustment to move my center of gravity back. That's easily done from the hoods back to the tops, it really doesn't work at all from the drops. At some point I'll need to do a fitting video which will require a number of subjects to be fit on the bike...

[kramnnim]

Hmm, not sure how to word the question I'm trying to ask...

I watched the videos at work today, the "using body weight to pedal" makes sense. At home on the trainer, I tried emulate what you showed to see if my positioning was good, and it made me wonder-

Does one need to stay under a specific cadence for this to work? Your video shows that your torso moves a bit as you push your weight into each pedal stroke. (may have been exaggerated for the video?) Do you do this at 90-100rpm? Or would that be a different type of pedaling, like the MTB guys you mentioned?

[MattTuck]

Ed, nice job with the videos.

What's up with the bouncing? I've always heard that bouncing is an indication that form is breaking down.

Thanks!

PS.

Pimpin' shoes.

[Ti Designs]

Does one need to stay under a specific cadence for this to work? Your video shows that your torso moves a bit as you push your weight into each pedal stroke. (may have been exaggerated for the video?) Do you do this at 90-100rpm? Or would that be a different type of pedaling, like the MTB guys you mentioned?

A while back there was a thread about a study of pedaling technique where participants were given instruction on a certain pedaling style. I found this to be somewhat amusing for exactly the reason you question the value of body weight on pedals above a certain RPM. Their results showed the same thing, but the concept of different methods of pedaling at different cadences never occurred to them...

Gravity is 9.8M/Sec^2, asking your body weight to push the pedal faster than that isn't going to happen on this planet. So the answer is yes, it's very limited in cadence.

This will all be covered in my pedal stroke program - which I guess I need to get done sooner rather than later... Let's break it down to the two large muscle groups and what they can do. The glutes push down, they leverage body weight which is the limitation on speed, but they have huge amounts of torque. The quads only extend the leg from the knee, so they can only really push the pedal forward over the top. Think 11:00 to 2:00 with the aid of the hip flexors to direct the force up and over the top. The anchor point is the saddle, the limitation is the amount of torque generated, but there's no restriction on how fast the muscle can push the pedal over the top. So, you have two large muscle groups, two different forces being produced, two different ways to pedal a bike - and there's nothing that says they can't both be used at the same time.

[Ti Designs]

What's up with the bouncing? I've always heard that bouncing is an indication that form is breaking down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNp8PFRYjZ0

At the start you see Eddy on rollers, he's sitting up and using his quads to push the pedals over the top - there's almost no upper body movement. Skip to 4:00 and watch him climbing something steep. Note his body weight is being driven down into the pedals. That's no bouncing, it's leveraging body weight and using the largest muscle group in the body to produce torque.



Pimpin' shoes.

They're S-Works shoes in gloss white. It's amazing what you can do with a Sharpie...

[thwart]

Very useful stuff.

Thanks for taking the time and effort involved to post it.

[93legendti]

Very useful stuff.

Thanks for taking the time and effort involved to post it.

+1.

I am sure this involves a lot of effort on TiD's part. I've always found his technique advice very helpful.

I really appreciate the time and energy Ed is devoting to this...

Thanks Ed.

[weisan]

ti-pal, like the way you describe sprinting as utilizing different muscle groups and techniques, I think this video illustrates that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD92InrA2rg
The ultimate battle between Marcel Kittel, Andrei Greipel and Mark Cavendish on Champs Elysee...

[soulspinner]

Thank you.:hello:

[Exonerv]

Ed,

After a few minutes of one leg drills, I focused on trying to apply dynamic positioning to my trainer ride this morning. I had never really thought about how the load on the pedals might correlate to hand position on the bars. I just tended to place my hands wherever I felt comfortable at the moment.

During the first half of the latest training video I'm using, it offers hill climbs that run 3-4-5-4-3 minutes in duration - with 2 minute cool down periods between each effort.

http://youtu.be/iPnjXEa_C1c

When I focused on dynamic positioning, I was able to maintain a steady pace on the climbs by shifting/reducing the load when needed and progressively sitting a little more upright. In doing so, it seemed to shift the load to other muscle groups, all the while keeping pressure off my hands. It also seemed easier to maintain a more efficient pedal stroke throughout.

While my numbers didn't necessarily reflect higher efficiency, I attribute most of that to having taken several days off due to a cold. But I'm curious if I'm on the right track?

[Ti Designs]

When I focused on dynamic positioning, I was able to maintain a steady pace on the climbs by shifting/reducing the load when needed and progressively sitting a little more upright. In doing so, it seemed to shift the load to other muscle groups, all the while keeping pressure off my hands. It also seemed easier to maintain a more efficient pedal stroke throughout.

Perfect! The point at first isn't to generate more power, the point is to show you that there is more than one way to pedal and more than one large muscle group working. Getting the body weight on the pedals and falling into them is my way of tricking your body into using the larger muscle group, with time that becomes second nature. When you're just starting out, if you try to go harder you'll revert back to just using the quads. With a bit more time at lower intensity it all becomes second nature. Once the form is in place, then you look for the real gains in power output.

It certainly sounds like you're well on your way to understanding position and it's effect on the muscles used. One thing to take note of, if you break it down to two large muscle groups, glutes and quads, you can burn one in isolation and the other is still rested and ready. It's an eye opening experience when someone realizes there's a whole second muscle group ready and waiting to be used...

[Wilkinson4]

Great stuff with those videos. Just watched them. I have always thought I had a pretty smooth pedal stroke and have done 1 legged drills under load. But, doing it this way really lets me concentrate on what is firing and when. No more load when I do 1 legged drills, I am converted:)

The dynamic position video was excellent and truly illustrates how to drop ones weight onto the pedal. I never thought of it as falling onto the pedal but that's a fantastic way to think of it.

Thanks for this!!!

mIKE

[Exonerv]

While out riding the trails today...(60+ degrees! Take that Thwart) I found myself pondering the "expert mountain biker" and dynamic positioning. With the constantly varying terrain and the limited hand positions available on a straight bar, I wondered if the mountain biker over time intuitively learns how to position himself for efficient pedaling as the feedback is so immediate.

While I didn't exactly kill it today on the trails...something seemed different. It felt like I had more in reserve than usual.

I'm really enjoying learning to apply something new. Looking forward to the next lesson....

[thwart]

While out riding the trails today...(60+ degrees! Take that Thwart)

Never kick a man when he's down…

… and frozen stiff.

[Exonerv]

I literally laughed out loud. I wondered if you'd even see my little dig buried on Page 7, but I suppose winter has given you plenty of time to read.

You should make plans to leave the frozen tundra and come to the NAHBS in Charlotte in March. Would love to get you back on the road. I've got a bike you could borrow.

[Exonerv]

I finally got the opportunity to take things outside and to hopefully apply a more efficient pedal stroke to the real world. A couple of thoughts and observations...

Dynamic Positioning is a revelation for me. I recognized a number of counter-productive bad habits I had developed. A tendency to stay in the hoods too long had been causing my upper quads to prematurely fatique when spinning. By shifting my hand position to correspond with the load under my feet, I was able to spin up longer grades much more effectively. Toward the end of my ride, I was somewhat shocked at how much better my hands, back, and shoulders felt. In this case, I had made no adjustments to my road bike, only to my position. The fit of the bike has never felt better.

The one leg drills have very effectively caused me to recognize that sloppy/clunky feeling that goes along with inefficient pedalling and correct things quickly when needed.

I found myself wondering if I were getting the most out of my glutes and would like to know if there are any drills or techniques targeting engagement of these muscles more. I remained seated for most of my ride today, but when I elected to stand for 30 secs to 1 min at a time, my legs felt great. But rather than "burn a match" and hammer to the point of fatigue, I would switch back to a balanced seated approach based on the load at hand.

I plan to review my data, but it seemed that my cadence was likely somewhat lower as I felt more comfortable turning a little larger gear. But throughout todays ride, my large muscle groups felt fully engaged. There was never any bouncing and far less adjustments in the saddle. 4 hours later, I'm feeling like my quads and glutes got a terrific workout and I have no tension in my shoulders and lower back . Overall it was a great ride. With a week of rain predicited, it looks like it'll be back to the trainer for more practice.

From my experiences so far, this has been some of the most useful information I have I have yet to find. I feel it will not only increase my efficiency, but will contribute to my overall enjoying of cycling. Thanks again!

[Ti Designs]

I'm working on putting the pedal stroke program that I teach at Wheelworks on video. It breaks the pedal stroke down into four muscle groups and works them in isolation before going into using them in sequence. I've also decided to give the series a name...

[teleguy57]

I'm working on putting the pedal stroke program that I teach at Wheelworks on video. It breaks the pedal stroke down into four muscle groups and works them in isolation before going into using them in sequence. I've also decided to give the series a name...

Love it!

[fiataccompli]

first, I want to say thanks for filming these, for sharing them & then for indulging us in the discussion.

I probably need to re-read the thread, but one take-away thought I've mulled over the last day or so (including during a ride where I was mindful of intentional & by-habit dynamic positioning and how it feels at different points/positions)...and I was curious what the comments about fit & efficiency of movement (or lack thereof) when riding in the drops comes to play in light of shallower drops you see more often with modern gear. Personally, I have been addressing some fit-related issues and found that I seem to prefer the 'compact' (shorter reach, shallower drop) bar shapes. That said, it would also appear these bars offer less range for stretching out and thus fewer options for optimizing dynamic positioning or putting one's weight into strokes. On the flip side, it would seem that maybe the drops & hooks themselves being a bit closer to the tops may prove more useful in allowing to get lower in CG/Aero but still within an acceptable range of motion. I'm I reading the thread right or do I need to go re-read it a few more times?

[Exonerv]

I've continued to apply the lessons learned in this thread to my trainer/outdoor rides in Jan/Feb. At age 52, I've given myself a day off between sessions. It is winter after all...

I was able to venture outside last Friday and had my strongest ride since last July. The pedaling efficiency is starting to translate into more sustained power and my recovery rate was fairly incredible. Using dynamic positioning, I was startled to learn I could enter recovery mode, with little to no loss of speed, nearly any time I wished. Even with a steady headwind I was able to maintain consistent power over much longer stretches.

I'm learning too that you can't force efficiency. As a life long student of the more is better approach, I've found myself trying to turn too big a gear on my last couple of trainer sessions. Consequently, I've struggled more and my avg speed has decreased. I think I'm starting to understand the wisdom of the drills where you try to maintain a high cadence and a low heart rate. My sense is it's a good way to find the sweet spot between power/efficiency & recovery.

I hope others are seeing similar benefits and I'd be interested to read your insights. Having a focused approach has made this winter far more tolerable. With another snow/ice storm predicted for this week, I expect to be spending more time on the trainer. C'mon spring....