My First Experience with Tubulars

[Splash]

Not very good and i have not even ridden them yet.:eek:

hell of a time wiping excess tubasti glue off the rims - taking the new enve rim stickers with it.

i have also scratched one of the rims.

both Christian and Oldpotatoe have been very helpful behind the scenes and wanting to hear your thoughts on best practice for glueing this tacky sticky tubasti glue so that i do not repeat this bad experience.

i want to remain committed with tubulars despite what some of you will say go to clinchers instead.

photo attached...

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[DRietz]

Tape the brake tracks before you begin. Electrical tape, not painters' tape.

Use a toothbrush to spread the glue that you apply to the rim from the tube it comes in. I dunk my toothbrush in acetone in between sections of rim so that the glue doesn't just stick to it and so that the coats are nice and thin.

And, lastly, I'd use Vittoria Mastik One. It's less fickle than the Tubasti stuff.

Edit: Oh, and one more thing - a really fine point sharpie should make that scratch a little less obvious...

[Splash]

thanks for those tips.

should i file that scratch out of the brake section of the rim?

if i do not do this, will the brake pad be worn unevenly or do other things at this scratch zone?

yes, i think i'll be changing glues some time later - not right now as i am really keen to go riding with my new setup bike.

i am keen to learn how to spread the glued tire aroudn the rim without getting muck everywhere because when you handle the tire you also handle the glue.


??

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[ultraman6970]

Cant figure it out how did you scratch that, did you use a screw driver or something?

If you know what are you doing you can get like 4 wheels out of a large tube of glue, if you used like half of the tube in one wheel I can tell you right away that you put way too much glue in there ok? With the time you will get better.

To remove the glue off the rims you can rubb it off with your fingers, some people use solvets, I imagine you got glue all over the place and thats why the decals are gone now after using a solvent. Wonder if you stretched the tubular enough and how strong are your thumbs.

If you are in VA or DC metro I can teach you how to mount them but there is a good video in you tube about it.

Good luck :D

[DRietz]

thanks for those tips.

should i file that scratch out of the brake section of the rim?

if i do not do this, will the brake pad be worn unevenly or do other things at this scratch zone?

yes, i think i'll be changing glues some time later - not right now as i am really keen to go riding with my new setup bike.

i am keen to learn how to spread the glued tire aroudn the rim without getting muck everywhere because when you handle the tire you also handle the glue.


??

splash

The brake pad will wear the scratch on the brake track - don't take a file to it.

Taping the brake tracks will keep the rim clean even if some glue gets off the rim bed (and, hopefully, onto the tape).

Remember - the tire should be pre-stretched to aid in installation, the last coat of glue on the tire should be dry, and the wet coat should be on the rim.

[ultraman6970]

This is the way I mount my tubulars... this guy is using a tape tho... seen guys starting at the valve and then stretching from there to the left (or right) till the get the whole thing in, it works too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGXioR1e0Jg

[Splash]

thanks boys.

i nearly cried when i saw that scratch. don't know how it got there - and i have a lot to learn about care and maintenance of these rims..

tubular was pre-stretched on another rim for days before job. funny thing is i was quite able to get the other tire on the other wheel without any major drama - except for the mess, torn carpets, angry wife, etc...:eek:

recommended protective carry cases for carbon bike rims?


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[Splash]

what do you guys use for gloves?

i ended uo not using any gloves at all because the gloves kept of sticking and ripping out.

how long do i need to have a tire stretched on a rim for before i glue it up on my riding rims??


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[Splash]

post #10 in this thread indicates that no matter how long conti tublars are pre-stretched - they revert back to original unstretched shape immediately after removing form the pre-stretch rim.

http://forums.com/wheels-tires/tubular-prestretch-302131.html

do you guys agree?


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[cfox]

what do you guys use for gloves?

i ended uo not using any gloves at all because the gloves kept of sticking and ripping out.

how long do i need to have a tire stretched on a rim for before i glue it up on my riding rims??


splash

The sure-fire way to prevent a glue mess is to wait until the glue is dry to the touch before you mount the tire. You do not need a "wet coat" right before mounting. I have found that method just ends up getting glue everywhere. If the glue is dry on both the tire and rim, you will have time to seat the tire, and don't worry, it will stick even being dry. It's contact cement; it doesn't need to be wet to work. Also, the best tip I ever got was this: after you have 2 coats of dry glue on the tire, put it back on your (clean, NO glue) stretching rim for an hour or so. The drying glue shrinks the basetape a bit and undoes some of your pre-stretching. I made a mess of my first tubular job way back when, but I got good at it by my second try. Don't file the scratch; you'll just create a brake thump. You won't even notice the scratch it after a couple of weeks. Deep carbon rims get scratched and dinged up through normal use, don't sweat it. You're gonna love riding them!

p.s. You can order replacement decals direct from Enve's website

[11.4]

post #10 in this thread indicates that no matter how long conti tublars are pre-stretched - they revert back to original unstretched shape immediately after removing form the pre-stretch rim.

http://forums.com/wheels-tires/tubular-prestretch-302131.html

do you guys agree?


splash

Pre-stretching doesn't last forever for any tire, and is more effective on some tires than on others. For Contis, for the most part, they aren't too amenable to stretching, though you really want to stretch them as much as possible so mounting isn't a horror. Try Conti Olympic track tires sometimes -- I swore I had been sold some 650C tires and even though they are supposedly the most supple of anything from Conti, and certainly the most expensive, they never did stretch evenly or fit worth a damn. With typical Conti road tubulars I've even taken to a step that I used to recommend against -- warm up your clothes dryer and then run it on delicate for about 5 minutes with a tire and a (dry) towel or two included. The warmth plus the beating the tire gets will help more than stretching -- not a substitute but it definitely helps. Just be careful and don't snarl up your tubular and don't cook it either.

You do learn good gluing technique when mounting Contis or you give up on them completely because of the tightness.

[Splash]

much appreciated guys.

it is a black art - this glueing business :cool:

i think the biggest key learning for me is the need to understand material behaviour (rim, glue, cleaning agents, ambient temp) before any glueing is attempted.

i have learnt alot now in the past 24 hours out of the sheer need to correct my mistakes of the past and not damage anymore expensive house carpet that was pulled / ripped up from underneath a rim i thought had dried..... :no::no::no:


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[lovebird]

It sure does get a whole lot easier. I remember my first glue jobs, what a mess....

+1000 on taping the brake tracks with electrical tape before starting. Also, I've found over the years that less glue is better. 2 light coats on the tire, sometimes only one on the rim (two if a brand new rim), and it all seems pretty secure.

Last, if you want to do away with fighting the tire onto the rim, try FMBs. Easiest tires to mount I've ever come across. Good luck!

[djg]

much appreciated guys.

it is a black art - this glueing business :cool:

i think the biggest key learning for me is the need to understand material behaviour (rim, glue, cleaning agents, ambient temp) before any glueing is attempted.

i have learnt alot now in the past 24 hours out of the sheer need to correct my mistakes of the past and not damage anymore expensive house carpet that was pulled / ripped up form underneath a rim i thought had dried..... :no::no::no:


splash

It's not a black art -- it's just that there's a bit of a process to get down. Do this 3 or 4 times and it will seem pretty straightforward. You've gotten some good tips here. When you know what you are using, and doing, and have everything set up, it's easier to work neat. Just in case, you can tape the rims and not worry about a little going over the edge of the rim bed. Pre-stretch, of course, but it helps more with some tires than others. Work edge to edge, and it can be helpful to have a flux brush or a cheap tooth brush for smooth even coats. Having the wheel on a truing stand makes life easier. Let the adhesive dry to the touch, both before a next coat and before mounting the tire -- as mentioned above, you do not need wet-on-wet contact to get a bond, you need clean mastik on clean mastik, and pressure. And don't use tube-nasty.

[Splash]

thanks guys.

i went to the tip today and grabbed 2 old bikes and cut the front fork off one and the rear chainstay/frame out of another. cleaned up and ready to be mounted on my portable bike mounts/arms connected to a vertical patio frame member.

i then mounted my taped up rims onto these cut frames and i now have convenient free wheeling rims with no carpet to destroy..:):)

i painted a new thin coat onto the rim using a toothbrush and another thin coat to the tire which is hanging next to it.

i will wait until dry and then mount the tire onto a dry unused pre-strech rim before i try to remount onto my riding rims..

- what are some recommended protective carry cases for carbon bike rims?
- what do you guys use for gloves? (i ended up not using any gloves at all because the gloves kept of sticking and ripping out.)


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[fuzzalow]

The main things to keep track of in mounting a tubular, some of which have been mentioned earlier. It isn't difficult to do this and it is unfortunate that the rim somehow got scratched in the process - don't worrybouddit, we have all made similar mistakes.


Pre stretch the tire


I prefer 2 coats of cement on the rim and 1 heavier coat on the base tape because it soaks up the glue. Let dry. Before mounting apply a very light coat to the rim just to moisten the rim. Mount the tire.


Center the carcass and not the base tape because it is more important the tire carcass is on the rim straight rather than following a base tape that might be skewed off-center in manufacture.


IMO your biggest mistake was to not take a dry run with mounting the prestretched tire on the carbon rim. Doing this would have given you warning as to how tight the tire was to mount and told you how much more effort was needed to stretch the tire with pure muscle and even pressure in getting it on the rim. Every rim is slightly different for tire bed and rim height so it is better to know before you go.


The most difficult and critical part of the mount is the outwards stretch of the tire between the 10 and 2 o'clock position of the tire after inserting the tire stem at 12 o'clock. Pull it tight! It is difficult because it is all muscular effort as you can't yet put you body weight into stretching the tire downwards towards 6 o'clock. But having the tire too loose on top means that it will be "short" and much too tight on the bottom and you will struggle to get it mounted over the lip of the rim. If you do get it mounted you might have a high spot at 12 and a low spot at 6 with the tire.


Good luck.

[Splash]

thanks fuzza.

i actually was successful in my very first attempt on my other rim. i followed all the instructions presented on this forum some 3 weeks ago - but there was some excess glue on the rims - not as much though.. the tire was not hard to put on at all actually..

for the second rim, i think i became over confident and mounted the tire wet. big mistake.

why must the rim be moist prior to mount ?

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[fuzzalow]

why must the rim be moist prior to mount ?

I like that there be a bit of wet glue that functions to make it squishy between the tire and the rim so I can move the tire around on the rim to center the carcass after the tire is mounted. Inflate to about 40psi and check and adjust the alignment. If OK, whack it up to 110psi, check alignment again and if OK, set aside to dry.

[Splash]

interesting viewpoint - and logical.

interesting that many others are stating for rim to be dry before mounting tire.

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[Gummee]

interesting viewpoint - and logical.

interesting that many others are stating for rim to be dry before mounting tire.

splash

I let the last coat of glue get tacky before mounting the tire. Drier than wet, but not dry. If that makes sense.

I'm gluing for CX mostly, so less glue isn't better. :nah I'll buy (and use) the big can of Mastik One when gluing up my season's worth of tubulars.

Edited to add: you sure that's not just a line of glue? Glue tends to cling and then act like a spider's web. Try cleaning it off and get back to us. There's nothing there that would lead me to believe you scratched your rim.

M

[fuzzalow]

interesting viewpoint - and logical.

interesting that many others are stating for rim to be dry before mounting tire.

splash

There is more than one way to skin a cat but I have done it the dry way too and it doesn't work as well for me. The reason is that when the glue is dried, the surfaces correctly function like a contact cement surface. Which means to break the bond the base tape has to be pulled away from the rim in a radial direction. This can be done with a tubular with no air pressure but it is awkward.

A bit of wet glue allows to tire to adjust alignment along the tire bed by sliding along a bit of squishy glue rather than on a dry bond that grabs.

HaHa! No more nerd talk from me about gluing tubbies. You will be just fine working with some of the help Paceline has given you in this thread.

[Ralph]

Be careful you don't over think this. I rode tubulars for over 30 years with no problems at all.....except they just got too expensive for me to justify a new tire every time I got a flat. And I never got good at repairing them. For racing, would still use them. And their advantage really shines with carbon rims. And changing out a flat on the road.

I would just take the tube of glue and put a glob every few inches (could hold the wheel around the hub, twist my wrist, and do the whole rim without changing my hand). Then, holding wheel same way, run a finger along the chanel of rim all the way around. Now glue is even and smooth. Wait a few minutes until glue is tacky, and put the tire on. Clean up my finger and side of rim if necessary with mineral spirits (don't get mineral spirits on side of tire). On a new rim, would maybe do that twice. Otherwise....no big deal. Don't put too much glue on at a time.

[Anarchist]

I prefer to have the glue dry on both tire and rim before I mount tires.

With Continental tires, before you mount them, after they are glued, soak them for a few minutes in hot water. The water seems to help the stretch, and it will dry very quickly.

[ultraman6970]

+1, you have many ways to do the same thing. Find whats best for you and that you put a lot of glue in the rim doesnt mean the thing is done right, actually I dont even use a lot of glue.

As for the globes, well I use latex ones when mounting, the glue doesnt stick too good to them.

When mounting tubulars wear the oldest tshirt you have because you might get glue in it, in the floor if you have carpet I would try to find a piece of 12x12 wood to put over the carpet. If you did not put a ton of glue if you set the tubular perpendicular to the floor it should not get any glue. I use a pair of super old shoes (the ones I use to change the oil in the cars) to hold the rim aswell.


Good luck :)

[mister]

i haven't used tubasti but with mastik you can let it dry until it's not sticky to the touch...20 min maybe
then you don't have to use gloves to mount the tire and if you're careful you don't even have to bother with taping your brake tracks

i use nitrile gloves
i even spread the glue out with my finger...with gloves on...no old toothbrushes or flux brushes or whatever
i mount the wheel in my truing stand to add coats of glue

[oldpotatoe]

I like that there be a bit of wet glue that functions to make it squishy between the tire and the rim so I can move the tire around on the rim to center the carcass after the tire is mounted. Inflate to about 40psi and check and adjust the alignment. If OK, whack it up to 110psi, check alignment again and if OK, set aside to dry.

What he said..if the glue is dry, particularly with Vittoria, it will stick, STICK and centering is nearly impossible. Well stretched tubie, pulling down hard on tire from valve down on each side..and it pops on w/o glue everywhere...

[nooneline]

I've found tubasti to be the messiest, stickiest, webbiest, worst, most irritating glue I've ever used. I used it a few times early on when I'd just go to a shop and ask for glue and be given that. But ugh, it sucks. Use Conti or Vittoria glue instead, and you'll have a better experience next time - I promise.

[mike p]

Number 1 mistake was using a new pair of high dollar rims as your first. Should have gotten an older set of AL rims to practice and ride on for awhile. Number two if you've got any local buddy who could show you, sometimes it easier to watch it being done once. Number three, conti's are a pita to mount. I like them and have Comp's on my race wheels but they're a pain to mount.
All water under the bridge and no big deal. As you practice you'll get better till it's a no brainer, but it'll never be as easy as clinchers. I actually love tubulars. They do give a better ride. It's up to each person to figure out if the cost and effort is worth it to them. Most folks think it's not worth it and I have to agree. I'm down to one pair of tubulars used only on race wheels. Everyone should give em a try though, it's part of cycling!

Mike

[oldpotatoe]

I've found tubasti to be the messiest, stickiest, webbiest, worst, most irritating glue I've ever used. I used it a few times early on when I'd just go to a shop and ask for glue and be given that. But ugh, it sucks. Use Conti or Vittoria glue instead, and you'll have a better experience next time - I promise.

Panaracer, my favorite.

[Threshold]

You must of used a screw driver or something to help get you over the rim. If you did the proper prep and install technique it is all by hand!!

It is bad enough we have all these carbon clinchers with boomer newbies waiting to explode, and now tubs rolling off...

Go to your local shop (if it is good) and have them show you the tricks to do it correctly. Those rims are too nice to hack learning how to do something on. Never use metal objects to pry on anything bike related!

Go to the car parts store and buy some touch up clear coat and fill in your scratch.

You can tape the rims off or just have acetone or mineral spirits and a rag on hand immediately to clean up any glue (of course, in well ventilated area)

[thwart]

Never use metal objects to pry on anything bike related!

I guess you've never tried to remove a very well-glued tubular from an alloy rim… gimme that screwdriver... :help:

[nooneline]

I guess you've never tried to remove a very well-glued tubular from an alloy rim… gimme that screwdriver... :help:

dude...

http://www.excelsports.com/image/Pedros%20Tire%20Levers%20Pair.jpg

[thwart]

Got 'em.

Still say with the right (wrong) circumstances, a bit of screwdriver is just what's needed. But only on an alloy rim.

And… judiciously.

[Anarchist]

I guess you've never tried to remove a very well-glued tubular from an alloy rim… gimme that screwdriver... :help:

Agreed, this is part of the reason I always leave the distance between two nipples opposite the valve, unglued.

Gives a place to start.

[Splash]

some great advice all - thank you very much.

that line is definitely a scratch. i can feel it with my thumb nail - probably resulting from rubbing against some metal somewhere...

splash.

[Admiral Ackbar]

"its just a scratch" just be happy it wasn't any proper damage that would effect its functionality.

[Splash]

how deep does a "scratch" need to be to impact on functionality on these carbon rims?


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[Splash]

ok - tire is on the rim. the glued tire was pre-strech on a spare dry rim for about 4 hours at 140psi and it was ok to put on the carbon rims without too much sweat.

i gave the rim a light coat of glue just before mount and did help to centre - but glue still went on the tire side walls.

how do i remove glue from the tires without damaging the tire rubber composition?


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[cmg]

I've found tubasti to be the messiest, stickiest, webbiest, worst, most irritating glue I've ever used. I used it a few times early on when I'd just go to a shop and ask for glue and be given that. But ugh, it sucks. Use Conti or Vittoria glue instead, and you'll have a better experience next time - I promise.

yep, my experience as well. Tubasti would ouze out from under the tire as i rode. at the end of the ride every bit of road debris is stuck to the side walls. it never dries. what a mess. Conti is way easier.