Follow Up Ford Hybrid C Max - 15 month follow up

[Smiley]

"This past Sunday we departed with a full tank of petrol (lowest grade just like you would buy) and travelled to Indianapolis IN. via Cumberland to Wheeling and Columbus to Carmel IN, 597.5 miles at 36.8 MPG. Speed was set via cruise control, it rained from Washington to Wheeling so lights were on and defroster (read A/C) was on due to high outside temps and humidity. All these thing add up in draining valuable battery power. Top it all off with 10-20 mph head winds from the NW where the cold front was moving in from. I set the speed to 65 or 70 MPH as posted, so I was hauling ass but not breaking the speed limits anywhere. So yeah I climbed some mountains and descended some too.
The trip home was colder temps outside as we left Indy at 26F and decided to return via New Stanton PA and the PA turn pike to Breezwood PA, this was my trip back from College so it was nostalgic for me from Wheeling on home. Bottom line colder outside temps so heater was running and lower 10-15 MPH winds from the NW so I assumed less winds to fight and a few less challenging hills. Total round trip was 1197.5 miles with new MPG = 39.7 so when I did stop I saw legs at 44.4 mpg so I knew I was making up for the trip to Indy.
I also need to tell you that I have Gas Pods installed http://www.gaspods.com/ and my car won’t leave home without them. Susanne the marketing person behind them says they do wonders for cars and I tend to think and feel they do for me. Hybrids have too many variables to fix to prove it exactly BUT I HAVE DRANK THE Kool Aid on this product. My hybrid is well broken in now and my lifetime average over +21,000 miles now is 43.7 mpg since this past trip dropped me down from my 44 MPG perch. In the event that you decide to buy a foreign car like mine  which is made in Detroit USA you might want to buy something that is averaging around 0.085 cents per mile driven and bank the savings."


I can fit bikes in the back on my Hybrid and I love its 188 combined total HP and had no issues going up the mountains of Western MD. I have been totally converted over to Hybrids and I think the trend in the US is moving in that direction too. Have a safe and happy holidays and think Green :)

[Sheldon4209]

I have a Prius and I agree with you Smiley about the Hybrid cars. I also find that the cold weather cuts milage significantly, about 6 to 7 mpg. My wife and I usually ride a tandem and we can take both wheels off and put our tandem in the back of the Prius. Driving the Prius saves us $250 to $300 driving to Florida compared to our Sienna van. I wish Toyota would put the Avalon hybrid system in the Sienna van.

[thwart]

I've got 6300 miles on my 2013 golf TDI. So far 42.4 miles per gallon, with an average cost per mile of $0.09. And that's with an average price for diesel at $3.89.

I would respectfully suggest that hybrids are not the only answer to good gas mileage.

And saving money.

[Steve in SLO]

Agree with Thwart. My wife averages 45 miles per gallon around town in her beetle TDI, and she loves the power. Arguments can be made the diesels run dirty, but this has decreased greatly since we have newer tech engines and ultra low sulfur fuel. On the other hand, hybrids have batteries to produce/dispose of. Guess it's just a matter of which Kool-Aid you would like to drink.

[Mark McM]

"This past Sunday we departed with a full tank of petrol (lowest grade just like you would buy) and travelled to Indianapolis IN. via Cumberland to Wheeling and Columbus to Carmel IN, 597.5 miles at 36.8 MPG. Speed was set via cruise control, it rained from Washington to Wheeling so lights were on and defroster (read A/C) was on due to high outside temps and humidity. All these thing add up in draining valuable battery power. Top it all off with 10-20 mph head winds from the NW where the cold front was moving in from. I set the speed to 65 or 70 MPH as posted, so I was hauling ass but not breaking the speed limits anywhere. So yeah I climbed some mountains and descended some too.

I wonder how much of the fuel economy is due to the hybrid drivetrain, and how much is due to other fuel efficiency design features. It sounds like most of the driving was constant high speed highway driving. Hybrid drivetrains provide the most advantage in start/stop driving, and little advantage at constant speed driving. But many hybrid cars use other design features to boost economy. In particular, the Prius uses a very aerodynamic shape (including the Kamm tail, which is not popular for other cars because it interferes with rear visibility). The Prius also comes standard with low rolling resistance tires (not popular in performance oriented cars because they have decreased traction and handling).

Anybody have a comparison between a hybrid and a non-hybrid version of the same car?

[rice rocket]

I have a Prius and I agree with you Smiley about the Hybrid cars. I also find that the cold weather cuts milage significantly, about 6 to 7 mpg. My wife and I usually ride a tandem and we can take both wheels off and put our tandem in the back of the Prius. Driving the Prius saves us $250 to $300 driving to Florida compared to our Sienna van. I wish Toyota would put the Avalon hybrid system in the Sienna van.

It's not the "cold weather". It's the EPA reformulating your gasoline for higher ethanol content in winter blends.

[shovelhd]

It's not the "cold weather". It's the EPA reformulating your gasoline for higher ethanol content in winter blends.

That, and in order to heat the vehicle, the engine has to run. Turn the temperature down, the engine runs less, you save more gas. I can always beat the average MPG of my wife's car when I'm driving because of little stuff like this.

[wallymann]

It's not the "cold weather". It's the EPA reformulating your gasoline for higher ethanol content in winter blends.

this

Turn the temperature down, the engine runs less, you save more gas.

would this be the case with any automobile that has an IC engine, even a hybrid? internal heating is a by-product of the IC process. basically the heat comes from the engine block that would otherwise be dumped overboard via the radiator. IC engines have PLENTY of excess heat even when idling so using the forced-air heater does *NOT* magically increase demand for fuel unless there are electical heating elements drawing current from the alternator/generator (e.g., heated seats and the rear defroster come to mind).

[shovelhd]

would this be the case with any automobile that has an IC engine, even a hybrid? internal heating is a by-product of the IC process. basically the heat comes from the engine block that would otherwise be dumped overboard via the radiator. IC engines have PLENTY of excess heat even when idling so using the forced-air heater does *NOT* magically increase demand for fuel unless there are electical heating elements drawing current from the alternator/generator (e.g., heated seats and the rear defroster come to mind).

All good theories. I'm talking about practice, real life use. If I'm driving in city traffic and I have the heat turned up, the engine runs. Turn down the thermostat, the engine stops running. Get out your calculator and figure out how much that saves.

BTW I am looking at the C-Max wagon to replace my pickup, along with the Prius v and Jetta Sportswagen TDI.

[Ralph]

In a hybrid, you want to run off battery power as much as possible. Cold reduces the time or amount of the charge. Thus the gasoline engine has to run more. HYbrids main advantage is short trips....city driving. Diesel not so perfect either. Fuel costs more, maintenance is more, engine cost to mfg is more, passenger car diesel engine life not much better than gas engine (these engines are not 3000 lb Cummins), and to me neither hybrid or diesel makes up for their added cost over their plain gas versions.

C Max ever bit as modern as a Prius....maybe more so in some ways...although much of the technology is licensed from Toyota I believe. C Max has a generous rear area. But going green gotta be important to you. Nice car. Great economy without getting your hands stinking like diesel.

[shovelhd]

It's not about going green, it's cash flow. I drive my vehicles well beyond what most people do, so the amortization period is longer and the added cost is offset by the weekly savings.

[Netdewt]

I've got 6300 miles on my 2013 golf TDI. So far 42.4 miles per gallon, with an average cost per mile of $0.09. And that's with an average price for diesel at $3.89.

I would respectfully suggest that hybrids are not the only answer to good gas mileage.

And saving money.

Love mine also. Batteries are not green, IMO. Respectfully.

[wallymann]

All good theories. I'm talking about practice, real life use. If I'm driving in city traffic and I have the heat turned up, the engine runs. Turn down the thermostat, the engine stops running.

In a hybrid, you want to run off battery power as much as possible. Cold reduces the time or amount of the charge. Thus the gasoline engine has to run more. HYbrids main advantage is short trips....city driving.

ah, i get it...hybrids dont continuously run their IC engines in some usage-modes. safe to assume that for continuous freeway driving the IC engine would be running basically 100% of the time, so what i said would hold true in that mode of use, plenty of excess thermal energy and no additional fuel burn to heat the interior.

i'm still driving a gas-guzzling straight-6 so all this stuff is new to me!

[jtakeda]

Love mine also. Batteries are not green, IMO. Respectfully.

This.

The Prius batteries are notorious for being incredibly bad for the environment. I remember reading that it produces more toxins to make and destroy them than to just drive a gas powered vehicle.

Not sure if he same is true for c max

[jbrainin]

I acquired a C-Max Energi last month, and I'm averaging 52 mpg so far. Given the weather has been colder than normal, I'll take that. If I remembered to actually charge it every night, I'd be getting 57 mpg.

[Netdewt]

i'm still driving a gas-guzzling straight-6 so all this stuff is new to me!

Straight 6 FTW! Best engine configuration ever (for fun, not the environment). I will miss mine when I sell it this spring…

[Ralph]

From the environmental side of things......diesel fuel from crude oil produces more green house emissions than gasoline if just comparing a gallon of each, but taking into consideration the amount of extra energy in diesel fuel from crude oil, it actually produces less green house emissions than gasoline. You can also make diesel from base stocks other than fossil fuels.

Many car companies are now marketing small engines with the best characteristics of gas and diesel engines. Turbo charging, direct injection, with forged pistons and rods. Cheap engine production, with about 90% of the benefit of diesel.....low RPM TQ and fuel economy plus longivity about equal to a passenger car diesel with aluminum block and heads. (Remember passenger car diesels with aluminum blocks and heads don't last like truck engines). These turbo gas engines don't need urea injection for clean exhaust like most diesels with low sulfur fuel. Or expensive maintenance like a diesel. Mazda is bringing out a low (relatively low) compression diesel that won't need urea injection for their passenger cars....that's a big plus to me.

Some car companies....believe Hyandai is leading this, are working on compression ignited gasoline engines.....this would truly have the best of both worlds......of diesel and gasoline engines. And don't forget hydrogen power just over the horizon a little further out. And Nat gas vehicles are here now also.

To me....hybrids are a great interim step while some of this new technology is worked out. C Max is way more than just a tall Focus. Prius line also very impressive....in their various sizes. Maybe they'll figure out how to dispose of batteries.

[xlbs]

My wife and I just completed a round-trip driving vacation to Florida from Canada at a total of about 3,500 miles with an average fuel economy of 45 mpg (us gallons) including 2 weeks of city driving in Florida. That was a 4.5 tank expedition, with highway driving at 65-75 mph with heat and AC on as needed in a fully loaded car (tandem in the trunk…!)

I believe that the hybrids are marvellously clever vehicles best suited for city driving. For longer trips and for vehicle longevity they are a distant second to high-quality diesel vehicles for these reasons:

Hybrid batteries are manufactured with some of the most expensive materials to mine in the world. Then those materials have to be transported to the manufacturing facility.

Hybrid batteries are beginning to fail. Repairing or replacing them is a costly venture, and usually starts to be an issue around the 160,000 mile mark. ( I have a good friend who refurbishes hybrid batteries for a living...!)

Electrical infrastructures are not large enough or robust enough to sustain a hybrid-driving universe.

Resale and depreciation are two highly underappreciated factors that many buyers simply ignore.

Diesels…high resale value, and decently low depreciation combined with longevity factors (diesels will often run for well over 500,000 miles if they are well-maintained) combined with ultra-low-emission status now available, all add up to a much better overall total package for the person who drives a lot of miles. Combined factors all add up to a smaller footprint and a better deal.

[zap]

It's not the "cold weather". It's the EPA reformulating your gasoline for higher ethanol content in winter blends.

Gasoline is reformulated but I understand that ethanol is around 10% regardless.

I'm glad :) is happy with his cmax.

[zap]

Hybrid batteries are beginning to fail. Repairing or replacing them is a costly venture, and usually starts to be an issue around the 160,000 mile mark.

One of my employees had one of the first pri. Interestingly, problems she had started right around 160K.....to the basic car. Batteries did begin to fail so mileage dropped to low 30's.

[Ralph]

Gasoline is reformulated but I understand that ethanol is around 10% regardless.

I'm glad :) is happy with his cmax.

That's how I feel also. I have driven the C Max hybrid, but not the all electric version. It drove nice. Ford is marketing it as a premium offering, not a base electric car. I really like all the Ford electronics, My Ford Touch, and all the hands free stuff. It's nice to see someone extremely satisfied with such a major purchase. And it seems to work for him.

[bcroslin]

My wife drives a VW Sportwagen TDI and we've been able to get ridiculous fuel mileage on long drives. We averaged somewhere between 44-46 mpg on a trip from Charleston to FL. We left Charleston with a full tank and arrived in Tampa with a little less than half. We love our VW.

With that said I really dig the new Fords and I always try to rent Escapes when I'm traveling. Why Ford hasn't produced an Escape Hybrid is beyond me. I didn't know Ford made the C Max in a hybrid. I'll have to check it out.

[wallymann]

TI really like all the Ford electronics, My Ford Touch, and all the hands free stuff.

you must be the only guy!

i find USING ford's infotainment system to be THE PITS. absolutely brutal user experience. worse than my 1st gen iDrive which is abysmal it its own right. i understand there's a big class-action lawsuit against ford by a bunch of unhappy owners.

[AngryScientist]

you must be the only guy!

i find USING ford's infotainment system to be THE PITS. absolutely brutal user experience. worse than my 1st gen iDrive which is abysmal it its own right. i understand there's a big class-action lawsuit against ford by a bunch of unhappy owners.

i'm with you! i've rented a few fords for business, and found the user interface just terrible.

[Sheldon4209]

I wonder how much of the fuel economy is due to the hybrid drivetrain, and how much is due to other fuel efficiency design features. It sounds like most of the driving was constant high speed highway driving. Hybrid drivetrains provide the most advantage in start/stop driving, and little advantage at constant speed driving. But many hybrid cars use other design features to boost economy. In particular, the Prius uses a very aerodynamic shape (including the Kamm tail, which is not popular for other cars because it interferes with rear visibility). The Prius also comes standard with low rolling resistance tires (not popular in performance oriented cars because they have decreased traction and handling).

Anybody have a comparison between a hybrid and a non-hybrid version of the same car?

The gasoline Camry milage is 25/35 while the hybrid Camry is 43/39 so there is a noticeable difference. Although the IC runs all the time on the highway the motors also provide power particularly on hills and when power is needed. The Prius has a modified Atkinson engine that is more efficient at speed but lacks low end torque. The two battery powered motors assist with slower speeds because of the low torque from the IC. Over the last 4,500 miles my Prius has averaged 48 mpg much of it in cold weather and highway driving.

I agree that diesels can provide improved milage as a gallon of diesel fuel has about 30% more energy than a gallon of gasoline. For some reason, diesels are slow to take of in this country. I saw diesel minivans in Sweden last year but I have not heard of any in the future in the U.S.

[Netdewt]

I agree that diesels can provide improved milage as a gallon of diesel fuel has about 30% more energy than a gallon of gasoline. For some reason, diesels are slow to take of in this country. I saw diesel minivans in Sweden last year but I have not heard of any in the future in the U.S.

Diesels have a bad rep in this country because American companies tried to make them in the 70's (I am foggy on the details) and failed miserably. Also, our taxes are such that diesel is more expensive than gas, even though it is cheaper to produce. In addition, in the past, diesels were stinky, loud, hard to start in the winter, and slow. Now with diesel particulate filters, high pressure fuel pumps, and turbochargers - they are great!

[93legendti]

The C Max's performance is impressive, especially since it appears to weigh ~500 lbs more than the Prius.

Go Detroit.

[Ken Robb]

The GM diesels in the late 1970s-early 1980s used modified 350 ci V-8 blocks and heads from their gasoline engines. The higher combustion pressures and relatively violent explosions typical in diesels destroyed them pretty quickly.

M-B diesels from that time lasted many miles as they were designed to stand up to use as taxis in Europe but the normally aspirated models were very slow. The turbo-charged models had more power but pronounced turbo lag still made them sluggish in traffic.

[shovelhd]

Why Ford hasn't produced an Escape Hybrid is beyond me.

I could swear I've ridden in an Escape Hybrid taxi in NYC.

[Ralph]

you must be the only guy!

i find USING ford's infotainment system to be THE PITS. absolutely brutal user experience. worse than my 1st gen iDrive which is abysmal it its own right. i understand there's a big class-action lawsuit against ford by a bunch of unhappy owners.

Mine works great! Took me a while to understand all it does....it's a huge leap forward in popular car price electronics......but after I got most of it figured out, no complaints at all. And I'm a 72 year old man. Most consider my age tech challenged. I read the comments from reviewers....but they just didn't have time to learn it. You can't just hop in our 2012 Limited Edge and use the controls. There is a learning curve. There is no way you could lease and hop in our car at an airport, fire it up, and operate the controls. Agree...too complicated, but not sure how many rentals had the full array of electronics like on our Limited with NAV. There were a few fixes. But they were done thru SD chips downloaded from Syncmyride.com or came in mail. Never had to go to a dealership. Have no complaints with Ford. Do notice most of industry is following along in Fords footsteps. Most of the electronic controls coming on 2014 domestic, European, and Japanese sourced vehicles....I already have on our 2012.

I did have a problem once pairing a new phone. Wife's paired perfect, but never could get mine to either pair, or stay paired. Finally, noticed the "update software" button on my phone, hit it...phone downloaded latest software, and then phone paired perfect. Wasn't car's fault. Was mine. Lots of stuff like that happens. People complain the NAV won't work. They have the settings wrong usually. It's true Ford may need to dumb it down. Not everyone has a lot of tech in their personal car, or uses a lease car long enough to learn it, or is inclined to learn new tech.

[Ralph]

I could swear I've ridden in an Escape Hybrid taxi in NYC.

Previus Escape yes....latest Escape no hybrid.

[DoubleButted]

The GM diesels in the late 1970s-early 1980s used modified 350 ci V-8 blocks and heads from their gasoline engines. The higher combustion pressures and relatively violent explosions typical in diesels destroyed them pretty quickly.

M-B diesels from that time lasted many miles as they were designed to stand up to use as taxis in Europe but the normally aspirated models were very slow. The turbo-charged models had more power but pronounced turbo lag still made them sluggish in traffic.

IIRC the diesel VW Rabbits from the early 80's used a standard gasoline block with a different head. They were just as horrible as the GM diesels of the same era, but nobody brings that up when discussing current VW diesels.

Also historically, US and Calif emissions were more strict on NOx emissions than EU requirements, which meant that diesels for sale here needed more expensive aftertreatment (lean NOx traps, Selective Catalyst Reduction (urea) etc.

[jbrainin]

That's how I feel also. I have driven the C Max hybrid, but not the all electric version. It drove nice. Ford is marketing it as a premium offering, not a base electric car. I really like all the Ford electronics, My Ford Touch, and all the hands free stuff. It's nice to see someone extremely satisfied with such a major purchase. And it seems to work for him.

The Energi is just a plug-in electric hybrid, with an all electric range of 14-21 miles depending on user and outdoor temperatures. Ford's all electric car is the 2014 Focus. I almost got one, but for the problem of the maximum 80 mile range.

The C-Max energi is the car I wished was available in 2008 when I set out to buy a Prius but bailed after test driving one (it drove like a Sedan de Ville crossed with a gold cart) and went across the street to the Honda dealer and bought a Fit.

[Ken Robb]

IIRC the diesel VW Rabbits from the early 80's used a standard gasoline block with a different head. They were just as horrible as the GM diesels of the same era, but nobody brings that up when discussing current VW diesels.

Also historically, US and Calif emissions were more strict on NOx emissions than EU requirements, which meant that diesels for sale here needed more expensive aftertreatment (lean NOx traps, Selective Catalyst Reduction (urea) etc.

I don't remember when emission standards for diesels came to CA. but even in the late 1980s diesel autos did not need semi-annual smog tests as gasoline cars did. We used to fantasize about buying a BMW 524td diesel and installing a warmed-up BMW 6 cylinder gasoline engine that wouldn't pass the visual part of the emissions test even if it ran clean. Since there were no tests required I assumed there were no emissions standards then for diesels but that may be erroneous.

[nm87710]

went across the street to the Honda dealer and bought a Fit.

:)

[oldpotatoe]

All good theories. I'm talking about practice, real life use. If I'm driving in city traffic and I have the heat turned up, the engine runs. Turn down the thermostat, the engine stops running. Get out your calculator and figure out how much that saves.

BTW I am looking at the C-Max wagon to replace my pickup, along with the Prius v and Jetta Sportswagen TDI.

Have a Jetta TDI Sportwagen and love it..40 mph+ is easy...powerful, roomy, nice all around...and only about $10,000 more than my 2000 New Beetle gas was, 10 years ago..if you are looking for milage, hard to beat a TDI..

[DoubleButted]

I was referring to the certification testing that a manufacturer must pass before being allowed to sell a powertrain configuration, not the DMV smog tests which are generally a piece of cake. I was just pointing out that the difference in emission requirements between europe and US had a huge impact on the R&D strategies of the manufacturers and why US makers embraced hybrids while the europeans spent more time perfecting diesels.

None of that had any relevance to my comment on the 1980's diesels.

[gomango]

Good call - financially.

Much less expensive(fuel, maint, depr, cost of capital, etc.) to operate per mile than any hybrid solution. Depr and cost of capital are by far the biggest costs associated with owning a car.

We looked at the Civic Hybrid first, but the availability wasn't good at that moment.

We then noticed a Fit Sport, test drove it and bought it about five years ago.

It easily has been the most reliable car we have owned and is perfect for commuting and short errands. I am always amazed when I fit two bikes in the back with all of our off-road gear.

Not to mention the decent gas mileage......

[Pete Mckeon]

I drove to you house last time.:bike:

[shovelhd]

Have a Jetta TDI Sportwagen and love it..40 mph+ is easy...powerful, roomy, nice all around...and only about $10,000 more than my 2000 New Beetle gas was, 10 years ago..if you are looking for milage, hard to beat a TDI..

Thanks. We used to be a VW family. GTI, Fox, and two Passat wagons. Core reliability was good although little things broke often. I may wait for the 2015 as it is complete new and a little larger.

[rice rocket]

Thanks. We used to be a VW family. GTI, Fox, and two Passat wagons. Core reliability was good although little things broke often. I may wait for the 2015 as it is complete new and a little larger.

Haha, truth. I haven't had a VW since 2004 or so, but my buddy has a MK5 Rabbit. He's ripped off both door handles (inside AND out), locks have failed on both doors, windows apparently fall down randomly in the middle of the night, mirrors fell off, etc. On mine (2000 Passat)...trunk microswitch, coolant temp sensor, all the cupholders... I got rid of mine before the coilpacks all started failing.

I think I'll stick w/ my Hondas...

[AngryScientist]

all the cupholders...

you've got to talk to me about this one. i'm a die-hard german car guy. owned lots of VW's, never heard of a cup holder failure. curious...

[Ralph]

All you guys with modern diesels....the ones that use urea for clean exhaust....which is most new diesels (MB, BMW, VW, Audi, Chevy, Dodge, etc).....Where are you buying your "urea" (adblue and DEF). How much is it? Will the urea tank last thru an oil change? So dealership tops it off at oil change?

[rice rocket]

you've got to talk to me about this one. i'm a die-hard german car guy. owned lots of VW's, never heard of a cup holder failure. curious...



The rear was like one of the doors on your run-of-the-mill entertainment center. You push it in, and it'll click in. Push it again and it'll come out. Well it escaped. Like this:

http://www.passatworld.com/forums/68-b5-garage/212143-2000-b5-rear-cupholder-breakaway-help-pics.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/ASA_Alex/9bab5cf1.jpg

The front cupholder was like this...same idea...it just stopped unfolding no matter how many times you pushed it.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2667/centercupholder2.jpg


Damn Germans...just give me a cylindrical hole.

[Ralph]

Are all you guys who have a new diesel, and using urea injection to clean the exhaust, use a particulate filter as well....to catch the soot? How often do you have to change that out? Is the filter expensive?

[rwsaunders]

IIRC the diesel VW Rabbits from the early 80's used a standard gasoline block with a different head. They were just as horrible as the GM diesels of the same era, but nobody brings that up when discussing current VW diesels.

I had a 1981 VW Rabbit diesel that was perhaps the best running engine that I've ever owned. I put well over 200K on it and never once had a mechanical issue with that engine. Mileage was 40mpg in the city and 50mpg on the highway throughout it's life. I sold it to a kid in 1989 who later ran it into a tree with 300K on the odometer.

Beyond the sluggishness involved with 52hp, my biggest complaint regarding the car involved the CV joints. I finally started replacing them with rebuilt parts as it became almost a hobby unfortunately. Other than that, your comments about the the VW diesel mechanical issues are a first for me.

Contrary to the VW's performance, every GM diesel that I dealt with at the time was a mechanical time bomb. We managed a fleet of Olds diesels for the upper management of the steel plant that I worked in and they were all eventually converted back to gasoline engines after they died with 30K on them. Genuine pieces of crap, which helped contribute at the time, to a negative public perception of diesel engines.

[DoubleButted]

Are all you guys who have a new diesel, and using urea injection to clean the exhaust, use a particulate filter as well....to catch the soot? How often do you have to change that out? Is the filter expensive?

All the DPF's that I am aware of for passenger vehicles use regeneration, ie they sense when the filter needs cleaning and then initiate a high exhaust temperature condition that burns the soot off.

I remember having discussions at Ford regarding how do we force customers to fill their urea tanks.
Allow only 2 starts after tank is empty.
50? mile limit w/ empty tank.
Speed limiting to x mph?
I think they chose the latter, but I worked on Hybrids, not diesels and can't remember. It gets complicated when you try to ensure compliance but don't want to leave people stranded.

[oldpotatoe]

All the DPF's that I am aware of for passenger vehicles use regeneration, ie they sense when the filter needs cleaning and then initiate a high exhaust temperature condition that burns the soot off.

I remember having discussions at Ford regarding how do we force customers to fill their urea tanks.
Allow only 2 starts after tank is empty.
50? mile limit w/ empty tank.
Speed limiting to x mph?
I think they chose the latter, but I worked on Hybrids, not diesels and can't remember. It gets complicated when you try to ensure compliance but don't want to leave people stranded.

What mine does..just runs higher idle RPM, and runs on a little while after shutoff..

[xlbs]

I refill with urea at about 15,000 km ( km for us Canucks) and buy it at the dealership. It's not.too speedy against the economy of the car...

[rice rocket]

You can't just pee in the car?

[rugbysecondrow]

Sounds nice Smiley. Is the Ford the one that has the leaves which fall off the branch the less efficiently you drive? Nice car!

"This past Sunday we departed with a full tank of petrol (lowest grade just like you would buy) and travelled to Indianapolis IN. via Cumberland to Wheeling and Columbus to Carmel IN, 597.5 miles at 36.8 MPG. Speed was set via cruise control, it rained from Washington to Wheeling so lights were on and defroster (read A/C) was on due to high outside temps and humidity. All these thing add up in draining valuable battery power. Top it all off with 10-20 mph head winds from the NW where the cold front was moving in from. I set the speed to 65 or 70 MPH as posted, so I was hauling ass but not breaking the speed limits anywhere. So yeah I climbed some mountains and descended some too.
The trip home was colder temps outside as we left Indy at 26F and decided to return via New Stanton PA and the PA turn pike to Breezwood PA, this was my trip back from College so it was nostalgic for me from Wheeling on home. Bottom line colder outside temps so heater was running and lower 10-15 MPH winds from the NW so I assumed less winds to fight and a few less challenging hills. Total round trip was 1197.5 miles with new MPG = 39.7 so when I did stop I saw legs at 44.4 mpg so I knew I was making up for the trip to Indy.
I also need to tell you that I have Gas Pods installed http://www.gaspods.com/ and my car won’t leave home without them. Susanne the marketing person behind them says they do wonders for cars and I tend to think and feel they do for me. Hybrids have too many variables to fix to prove it exactly BUT I HAVE DRANK THE Kool Aid on this product. My hybrid is well broken in now and my lifetime average over +21,000 miles now is 43.7 mpg since this past trip dropped me down from my 44 MPG perch. In the event that you decide to buy a foreign car like mine  which is made in Detroit USA you might want to buy something that is averaging around 0.085 cents per mile driven and bank the savings."


I can fit bikes in the back on my Hybrid and I love its 188 combined total HP and had no issues going up the mountains of Western MD. I have been totally converted over to Hybrids and I think the trend in the US is moving in that direction too. Have a safe and happy holidays and think Green :)