Speedplay pave pedals?

[whforrest]

Any news regarding release dates?
Need to purchase ASAP


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[wallymann]

...IIRC the cost of entry is obscene, like $500 for a pair!!!

http://img.xcrsvorada.cz/images/Aktuality/Speedplay/SpeedplayZeroPave.jpg

[whforrest]

Ouch


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[cmg]

you could do the same with a set a X2 pedals and a saw. drillium?

[whforrest]

Regardless of price pedals look awesome


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[lukasz]

Look like SPD but without the convenience.

[R3awak3n]

lol at price. the TI ones are $600. No pedal should cost that, period.

[kramnnim]

Looks like they could chew up your shins...and shoes, even with the sole protectors.

[CunegoFan]

Do they use the same crappy cleats that tend to foul with grit?

[uno-speedo]

I was told Feb/March. I am getting some for my Flanders excursion :banana:

[Gummee]

There's at least one thread on DIYing those minimalistic S pedals on Weight Weenies. Doesn't sound too terribly difficult

Haven't tried it myelf tho

M

[whforrest]

Just ordered in stainless steel


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[buddybikes]

wow - brochure says includes cleats!

[shovelhd]

All Speedplays include cleats. I think they look dangerous.

[jpw]

All Speedplays include cleats. I think they look dangerous.

agreed. i wouldn't want to release from those in a crash. take a slice out of my leg.

[merckx]

Any news regarding release dates?
Need to purchase ASAP


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What ProTour team are you riding on? Has your DS made the Flanders/Roubaix selection for next spring already? Let us know who you are so that we can follow your progress and encourage your effort. Good luck!

[whforrest]

What ProTour team are you riding on? Has your DS made the Flanders/Roubaix selection for next spring already? Let us know who you are so that we can follow your progress and encourage your effort. Good luck!


Smart %}#], I'm ordering these because I like Speedplay and I think they look cool. The little free time I have to enjoy this forum and ride my bike I certainly don't need snarky comments like this. I'm 43, cat 2, 4 kids, happily married, run a huge business. My first racing license was in 1985, stayed at the Olympic training center, raced with the San Diego bike club, and for a short time I did race in Belgium. Like many aspiring junior riders who dream of turning pro come to some point realizing they don't have the talent to take the next step. If you knew me I doubt you would say this to my face Merckx. Your points of perspective are always welcome but I won't tolerate condescending needless comments.


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[oldpotatoe]

Smart %}#], I'm ordering these because I like Speedplay and I think they look cool. The little free time I have to enjoy this forum and ride my bike I certainly don't need snarky comments like this. I'm 43, cat 2, 4 kids, happily married, run a huge business. My first racing license was in 1985, stayed at the Olympic training center, raced with the San Diego bike club, and for a short time I did race in Belgium. Like many aspiring junior riders who dream of turning pro come to some point realizing they don't have the talent to take the next step. If you knew me I doubt you would say this to my face Merckx. Your points of perspective are always welcome but I won't tolerate condescending needless comments.


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Yup, Eddy was never such a tool...back to the pedals....

X series design only or Zero also?

I like the minimalist design too and I am a big fan of SP as well.

As for the cleats and fouling...I walk a little in mine. Last WE walked in the dirt and little mud around the new Velodrome here...banged the cleat a little on the pedal, clip right back in, came out fine also. Better than scrubbing the astic off plastic cleats....and yikes, what makes plastic cleats(shimano/look) so expensive???

[djg21]

for the cleats and fouling...I walk a little in mine. Last WE walked in the dirt and little mud around the new Velodrome here...banged the cleat a little on the pedal, clip right back in, came out fine also. Better than scrubbing the astic off plastic cleats....and yikes, what makes plastic cleats(shimano/look) so expensive???

I never really understood this criticism either. I wear my cycling shoes when I'm cycling. If I'm going to be hiking, i wear my hiking shoes.

I use Kool Kovers on my Speedplay cleats because they make the cleats less slippery on hard surfaces when i do have to walk short distances - to use a restroom or refill bottles - but i generally do not walk in cycling shoes. And even when riding on muddy, unpaved roads, I've never had real difficulty engaging the pedals. At most, I've had to knock my cleats against the pedals a couple times to dislodge any crud, and then clean and re-lube them at the end of my ride. Granted, i wouldn't mountain bike on the things, but that is not what they are designed for.

[merckx]

Smart %}#], I'm ordering these because I like Speedplay and I think they look cool. The little free time I have to enjoy this forum and ride my bike I certainly don't need snarky comments like this. I'm 43, cat 2, 4 kids, happily married, run a huge business. My first racing license was in 1985, stayed at the Olympic training center, raced with the San Diego bike club, and for a short time I did race in Belgium. Like many aspiring junior riders who dream of turning pro come to some point realizing they don't have the talent to take the next step. If you knew me I doubt you would say this to my face Merckx. Your points of perspective are always welcome but I won't tolerate condescending needless comments.


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Was written with tongue firmly in cheek. Carry on.

[whforrest]

Was written with tongue firmly in cheek. Carry on.


Don't tell me to carry on, a simple apology will do.


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[Wakatel_Luum]

So they remove material from the same cruddy design and up the price...what's not to like! ;)

[oldpotatoe]

So they remove material from the same cruddy design and up the price...what's not to like! ;)

Put 3 people in a room and ask about pedals, get 4 'opinions'.
If ya like Look pedals, almost like Look, copy Look, cheap Look, Japanese Look..go ahead and use them.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I gave the 'nice' honest opinion...would you have preferred the 'nasty' honest one...

[oldpotatoe]

I gave the 'nice' opinion..,would you have preferred the 'nasty' one...

You can give any opinion you wish sport. I have used, sold, worked on them and the other pedals for a long time. I can buy, use any pedal I want...so can you. If ya don't like them, groovy, don't buy and use them. But 'cruddy design' isn't an adjective I would use with this very successful pedal and company in San Diego. Exposed carbon blade, now that's a cruddy design.

IMHO, of course.

[Wakatel_Luum]

While there isn't a perfect pedal on the market to date, after my long term experience working on and using the brand in question I would only allocate the word "successful" with regards to their marketing campaign and profit margins...

[oldpotatoe]

While there isn't a perfect pedal on the market to date, after my long term experience working on and using the brand in question I would only allocate the word "successful" with regards to their marketing campaign and profit margins...

Yup, and exactly like any marketing campaign or profit margin for the other big boys in the pedal world, Look and shimano.

Ok, ok, discussion group, lets' discuss..what do you detest so much about SP and love so much about Look style, assuming that's the design you like?

You uses SP long term ..if ya didn't like them, why 'long term'??

[shovelhd]

I use Speedplay for two reasons. One is the adjustable float on the Zero. My knees appreciate it. The other is the ability to stomp and go at the start of a race. I practice this at the start of every season so when I am lined up on the front I can stay up there if I choose to. A peripheral reason is the cornering angle but they are not the only ones that offer this. I use the Ti version and maintain them routinely. They work as well today as they did when they were new, and they are rebuildable.

I do not like their aggressive patent enforcement and strict MAP pricing policy. However, I do not buy my cycling gear based on politics or business practices.

I do wonder how well these pave pedals are going to clip in. I would think the pedal body design is part of why they clip in so fast. Without it, who knows. I'd be interested in finding out.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I no longer use Speedplay after years of persisting, due to the fact the cleats start to rock side to side with the slightest wear, this caused many issues with my knees, and I do not like the hot spot feel I get from them as well. People say you haven't set the cleats up correctly...BS!

Once I had gone back to trying Dura-Ace then Time Xpresso the feeling of stability was like night and day...to me the Dura-Ace are the best, great bearings and well made except for lack of float so I went back to Time...bushings and bearings aren't great and I'm not so keen on the carbon plate but they feel stable and the float, tension feels good...

Yet to see a perfect pedal to date...

[oldpotatoe]

I no longer use Speedplay after years of persisting, due to the fact the cleats start to rock side to side with the slightest wear, this caused many issues with my knees, and I do not like the hot spot feel I get from them as well. People say you haven't set the cleats up correctly...BS!

Once I had gone back to trying Dura-Ace then Time Xpresso the feeling of stability was like night and day...to me the Dura-Ace are the best, great bearings and well made except for lack of float so I went back to Time...bushings and bearings aren't great and I'm not so keen on the carbon plate but they feel stable and the float, tension feels good...

Yet to see a perfect pedal to date...

Geezz, after the initial post I expected some fire breathing..

I like the 2 sided-ness..don't have hot spots(Sidi Genius 5 shoes)...Zero, so adjust to almost no float. I clip out of the left, so yep, some rocking after about a year..buy a couple of pucks, replace the LH one....have some MCL issues but 6.3 decade knees are happy..

No perfect knee/rider/bike/wheelset/group/pedal/helmet/short/etc.

[whforrest]

I rode the first to market white look pedals in the 80's. Wow what a jump from straps. Years later I stumbled onto Speedplay. I tried going back to look but sold them off and purchased Speedplay again. Obviously there are a few best of breed brands out there. Just like my brooks saddle experiment I'm going back to my beloved Fizik aliante. Just like purchasing the challenge roubaix 27mm that eventually widened on my serotta making them obsolete, now back to the 25mm. So I always enjoy getting other peoples point of perspective on how they use gear and why. We live in this time with so many options. I remember when I went to the shop and that was it. But it was also a beautiful time because the shop owner sometimes morped into your mechanic, nutritionist, coach, and race schedule headquarters.


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[bicycletricycle]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.

coombe

http://www.coombe.com/millennium_pedal_features.html

all metal, bearings that last forever, self cleaning retention system with no moving parts in pedals or cleats

[whforrest]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.



coombe


Never seen these.


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[CunegoFan]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.

coombe

Didn't Speedplay at one time sue a competitor with the basis of the suit being that the competitor's pedals were "round"?

[shovelhd]

Bebop I believe.

[oldpotatoe]

I rode the first to market white look pedals in the 80's. Wow what a jump from straps. Years later I stumbled onto Speedplay. I tried going back to look but sold them off and purchased Speedplay again. Obviously there are a few best of breed brands out there. Just like my brooks saddle experiment I'm going back to my beloved Fizik aliante. Just like purchasing the challenge roubaix 27mm that eventually widened on my serotta making them obsolete, now back to the 25mm. So I always enjoy getting other peoples point of perspective on how they use gear and why. We live in this time with so many options. I remember when I went to the shop and that was it. But it was also a beautiful time because the shop owner sometimes morped into your mechanic, nutritionist, coach, and race schedule headquarters.


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Don't forget father confessor, therapist, bartender.

[firerescuefin]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.

coombe

http://www.coombe.com/millennium_pedal_features.html

all metal, bearings that last forever, self cleaning retention system with no moving parts in pedals or cleats

Have gone out of business once....correct?

[whforrest]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.

coombe

http://www.coombe.com/millennium_pedal_features.html

all metal, bearings that last forever, self cleaning retention system with no moving parts in pedals or cleats


Wow shouldn't these guys go after Speedplay? Sweet looking


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[pbarry]

Suspended production for several years. ;)
Always wanted to try these. The spring-less retention system seems like a great idea.

[berserk87]

Bebop I believe.

That's a shame. Bebop makes a nice product for the money. I still use them on my MTB. I had a former teammate that used them for road and MTB. Not perfect, but I don't think Speedplay is either. They do feel remarkably similar to Speedplay road pedals, but shed dirt and mud pretty well.

I have ridden Speedplay on the road since the late 1990's. They work best for me from what I have tried. They are friendly for my knees and are 2-sided. I like them.

My issue is that they are a pain in the behind to lube. I ride the X-2's and grease always blows back out of the dust cap instead of purging all of the way out of the spindle side. I get some grease out of the spindle side, but after awhile, it mostly just pushes the dust cap out and blows all over. I lube them regularly and also rotate the pedal when I do, but it still happens.

[berserk87]

those look like knock offs of the best pedals ever made.

coombe

http://www.coombe.com/millennium_pedal_features.html

all metal, bearings that last forever, self cleaning retention system with no moving parts in pedals or cleats

I haven't seen these for awhile. They interest me.

[CunegoFan]

Bebop I believe.

Thanks. That is it. After losing to Bebop, Speedplay spent years bullying LBSes that sold Bebop. Maybe it still does.

[Rada]

Didn't SP also shut down a guy on ebay who was selling rebuild kits?

[FlashUNC]

Fwiw, just got an email from Excel Sports. Says they have them in stock.

[shovelhd]

Didn't SP also shut down a guy on ebay who was selling rebuild kits?

Yes, and a guy who was selling replacement Ti axles, standard or longer length.

[CunegoFan]

Do the Coombe pedals work well? They don't have all the sharp edges those Speedplays have.

[Rada]

Yes, and a guy who was selling replacement Ti axles, standard or longer length.

Ah yeah. I forgot about that. It's funny how SP seems to get a pass for all the crap they pull.

[thirdgenbird]

Ah yeah. I forgot about that. It's funny how SP seems to get a pass for all the crap they pull.

And specialized is the devil for fairly routine cease and desist letters.

[oldpotatoe]

Didn't SP also shut down a guy on ebay who was selling rebuild kits?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-Titanium-Spindles-for-Speedplay-pedals-Zero-X-Light-Action-/271290327490?pt=US_Pedals&hash=item3f2a29e1c2

[Rada]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-Titanium-Spindles-for-Speedplay-pedals-Zero-X-Light-Action-/271290327490?pt=US_Pedals&hash=item3f2a29e1c2

It was a British guy they threatened back around 2011. SP might not be able to intimidate a company with some dollars behind it. Google Speedplay sues and all kinds of stuff pops up.

[unterhausen]

the guy in Detroit(?) that makes replacement Ti axles will make you some for a speedplay, he just doesn't list them on ebay because of threats from Speedplay. You have to call. Haven't looked him up recently though.

I have fouled my Speedplay cleats too many times and may offload my pedal collection. I do a lot of gravel and randonneuring, both require walking more than the average road riding would call for. Also kills the overly-expensive cleats really fast.

I have turned against the company because they are lawsuit happy, doesn't seem to be called for. They aren't innovating any more, that's what is going to kill them if anything does. This pedal is something the weight weenies have been doing for years, there was even a pro riding speedplays modified like this

[oldpotatoe]

the guy in Detroit(?) that makes replacement Ti axles will make you some for a speedplay, he just doesn't list them on ebay because of threats from Speedplay. You have to call. Haven't looked him up recently though.

I have fouled my Speedplay cleats too many times and may offload my pedal collection. I do a lot of gravel and randonneuring, both require walking more than the average road riding would call for. Also kills the overly-expensive cleats really fast.

I have turned against the company because they are lawsuit happy, doesn't seem to be called for. They aren't innovating any more, that's what is going to kill them if anything does. This pedal is something the weight weenies have been doing for years, there was even a pro riding speedplays modified like this

Gotta wonder why plastic molded look and shimano cleats push $25 these days. No metal at all except for the bolts.

I view SP attempts to shut down after market bearing/spindle offerings in a different light because;
-has helped to reduce/eliminate gray market for the pedals themselves
-emphasizes the ability to actually OVH these pedals, unlike others.

They work great for me(Zeros)...his legal 'department' is a teeny/tiny fraction of spec-ed. He hadn't sued anybody that uses the word 'Zero', for instance, more issues related to hardware.

But if ya get twisted about what the owner sees as protecting his intellectual property, then use something else.

[Rada]

But if ya get twisted about what the owner sees as protecting his intellectual property, then use something else.

I've got no dog in this hunt and don't have any doubts of the quality of SP's products. Sending someone cease and desist for posting instructions on how to do your own rebuild goes beyond the pale. I normally highly respect your opinions oldpotatoe, but on this one I guess we just need to agree to disagree.

[bobswire]

Gotta wonder why plastic molded look and shimano cleats push $25 these days. No metal at all except for the bolts.

I view SP attempts to shut down after market bearing/spindle offerings in a different light because;
-has helped to reduce/eliminate gray market for the pedals themselves
-emphasizes the ability to actually OVH these pedals, unlike others.

They work great for me(Zeros)...his legal 'department' is a teeny/tiny fraction of spec-ed. He hadn't sued anybody that uses the word 'Zero', for instance, more issues related to hardware.

But if ya get twisted about what the owner sees as protecting his intellectual property, then use something else.

It's not like you have to defend SP for every gripe. Some folks are just stating their differences. I don't like them because the cleats are so huge like wearing reverse high heals and yes I usually end up doing enough walking around off and on during rides that cleat obstruction become important to me. Actually I don't have a dog in this fight since I pretty much just use SPD nowadays anyway, I don't race or need to be locked in for performance reasons. My rides are more mellow.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2ikdWHKO1I

[slidey]

DGAF about all the opinions flying around, but am intrigued about some usage review of the Paves. Don't think I'd ever buy them, as I simply have no need to, but they inherently 'look' like a tricky set of pedals to get in/out off, and to climb/sprint on. I just want to know how wrong I'm in my appearance-based perceptions from someone who has actually used it.

So, OP - usage reviews?

[Keith A]

I no longer use Speedplay after years of persisting, due to the fact the cleats start to rock side to side with the slightest wear, this caused many issues with my knees, and I do not like the hot spot feel I get from them as well. People say you haven't set the cleats up correctly...BS!

Once I had gone back to trying Dura-Ace then Time Xpresso the feeling of stability was like night and day...to me the Dura-Ace are the best, great bearings and well made except for lack of float so I went back to Time...bushings and bearings aren't great and I'm not so keen on the carbon plate but they feel stable and the float, tension feels good...

Yet to see a perfect pedal to date...Exactly my experience too. I initially spent quite a bit of time testing the Zero's and Shimano SPD-SL pedals (bought one pair of each) and went with the Zero's and put these on several bikes. Loved them at first, but after some miles I too started to notice the side to side rocking. So I replaced my cleats and it was better, but slowly started happening again...so on went another set of new cleats. After the rocking returned, I went back to try the SPD-SL's again and they were solid and felt much better then the Zero's.

So I reversed my original choice and went with the SPD-SL's and am mostly happy. I must admit that I do get a hot spot on one of my feet after I've been on the bike for 70+ miles that I never had with the Zero's. I really wanted to love the Zero's, but I just didn't like the side to side motion that developed.

[berserk87]

DGAF about all the opinions flying around, but am intrigued about some usage review of the Paves. Don't think I'd ever buy them, as I simply have no need to, but they inherently 'look' like a tricky set of pedals to get in/out off, and to climb/sprint on. I just want to know how wrong I'm in my appearance-based perceptions from someone who has actually used it.

So, OP - usage reviews?

They are pretty easy based on my experience with other systems. I have used more varied pedals with MTB stuff. On the road, the only other type I have used are old SPD, old Look, and Time (older stuff).

For MTB I have used SPD, Eggbeaters, and Speedplay Frogs, as well as Bebop. I found the Frogs very hard to get into. I like the feel of them once I was in, but I never got any better at getting in with time and got ride of them.

Compared to that, X-2's were kind of a cinch. Two-sided entry helps a bit. With Look and Time, I had to turn the pedal to the top side to engage it - again, I am talking about 18 years ago - their products may be different now.

The only thing you really have to watch out for with X series pedals is the occasional "false engagement". If you step down onto the pedal you may hear a click and feel some movement, but the cleat might not actually be clipped in. When you go to stand up immediately after, you end up crushing your junk on the top tube when your foot slips off. At least that has happened to me. I am no Lance Armstrong, so I have twice the targets when it comes to that. So I tend to stay seated to check first before I stand.

[unterhausen]

But if ya get twisted about what the owner sees as protecting his intellectual property, then use something else.He has no intellectual property rights, he's just using well-known legal bullying techniques to take out people that don't make enough money off of the things to bother with it. If someone like Shimano decided to build an exact copy, he would have no recourse whatsoever. I'm sure Shimano could put him out of business by turning his methods on him. Not that they would, of course.

I will use what I want, and what works for me, but thanks for the input. I am relatively happy with the product. I'm not using it for other reasons. If I was doing more road riding this year, I certainly would be using the speedplays. Of course, if I decide to sell it will be one at a time so my ebay auctions don't get taken down.

[Raffy]

But if ya get twisted about what the owner sees as protecting his intellectual property, then use something else.

Same thing here. I'm more concerned about what actually works for me and I don't really factor in who makes my gear and what they do outside of manufacturing my gear.

Not saying caring about who and what your component manufacturers stand for doesn't matter but personally, I'm all about finding equipment that works for me.

[bluesea]

Could'a sworn someone at WW innovated this mod.

[oldpotatoe]

I've got no dog in this hunt and don't have any doubts of the quality of SP's products. Sending someone cease and desist for posting instructions on how to do your own rebuild goes beyond the pale. I normally highly respect your opinions oldpotatoe, but on this one I guess we just need to agree to disagree.

I think it was more than posting instructions on how to OVH these things, sources of bearings and such, not made by SP but I really don't know...I have showed many how to OVH these in the shop and haven't heard a word for SP.

He's pretty small in the pedal world..I think he just wants to protect his 'rice bowl'...

[bobswire]

After watching this video awhile back I reevaluated my negative thoughts about Richard Bryne which I had formed by reading about aggressive legal threats by SP regarding his product. After watching this video he came across as straight shooter and fan of cycling much like me and had me tone down my previous negative thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqMsSKbRgpo

[oldpotatoe]

After watching this video awhile back I reevaluated my negative thoughts about Richard Bryne which I had formed by reading about aggressive legal threats by SP regarding his product. After watching this video he came across as straight shooter and fan of cycling much like me and had me tone down my previous negative thoughts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqMsSKbRgpo

I first met Richard when I worked at a bike ship in SanDiego..and he just popped in to show us his first take on Frogs. About 1989-90 or so. I have seen him a couple of times since..he is not an OGRE, just wants to protect his rather small, mostly made in USA, business. He is no different than any manufacturer seeing some threat to their name/livelihood, trys to take action to stop it. As I mentioned, it's not like he sued somebody over using 'Zero' or 'Frog'...

But if ya don't like him/thepedals/hislegal actions..don't use them..vote with your wallet..now sram..that's a....................

[Mark McM]

He has no intellectual property rights, he's just using well-known legal bullying techniques to take out people that don't make enough money off of the things to bother with it. If someone like Shimano decided to build an exact copy, he would have no recourse whatsoever. I'm sure Shimano could put him out of business by turning his methods on him. Not that they would, of course.

For some one with no intellectual property rights, Richard Bryne (founder of Speedplay) sure has a lot of patents:

4,942,778 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,213,009 Cleat for clipless pedals

5,325,728 Locking mechanism for a clipless bicycle pedal

5,546,829 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,606,894 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,687,618 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,862,716 Clipless bicycle pedal

6,425,304 Clipless pedal and method for assembling it

6,494,117 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,017,445 Pedal and related pedal/cleat assembly

7,174,807 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,472,498 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

7,877,904 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

8,272,150 Shoe sole mounting standard for bicycle cleat

8,745,900 Aerodynamic bicycle shoe cover and pedal cover


Granted, the USPTO examiners are not always the most thorough in vetting patent applications, but with all of these patents granted, surely Bryne must have at least some valid intellectual property.

[oldpotatoe]

For some one with no intellectual property rights, Richard Bryne (founder of Speedplay) sure has a lot of patents:

4,942,778 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,213,009 Cleat for clipless pedals

5,325,728 Locking mechanism for a clipless bicycle pedal

5,546,829 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,606,894 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,687,618 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,862,716 Clipless bicycle pedal

6,425,304 Clipless pedal and method for assembling it

6,494,117 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,017,445 Pedal and related pedal/cleat assembly

7,174,807 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,472,498 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

7,877,904 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

8,272,150 Shoe sole mounting standard for bicycle cleat

8,745,900 Aerodynamic bicycle shoe cover and pedal cover


Granted, the USPTO examiners are not always the most thorough in vetting patent applications, but with all of these patents granted, surely Bryne must have at least some valid intellectual property.

Hey, hey, HEY....no fair using facts in this argument!!!

[oldpotatoe]

the guy in Detroit(?) that makes replacement Ti axles will make you some for a speedplay, he just doesn't list them on ebay because of threats from Speedplay. You have to call. Haven't looked him up recently though.

I have fouled my Speedplay cleats too many times and may offload my pedal collection. I do a lot of gravel and randonneuring, both require walking more than the average road riding would call for. Also kills the overly-expensive cleats really fast.

I have turned against the company because they are lawsuit happy, doesn't seem to be called for. They aren't innovating any more, that's what is going to kill them if anything does. This pedal is something the weight weenies have been doing for years, there was even a pro riding speedplays modified like this

Not innovating anymore? Have ya looked at Look Ti blades 2? How are really different than the very first Look in the 80s. Same for shimano.

How many other pedals have adjustable float w/o buying new $25 cleats? If ya don't like 'em or Byrne don't use them but lack of innovation rests firmly in Look or Look copies(shimano).

[djg21]

I've got no dog in this hunt and don't have any doubts of the quality of SP's products. Sending someone cease and desist for posting instructions on how to do your own rebuild goes beyond the pale. I normally highly respect your opinions oldpotatoe, but on this one I guess we just need to agree to disagree.

I have mixed feelings about this. Given that the failure of a pedal spindle or pedal could have catastrophic effects and could create significant exposure to product liability claims for Speedplay, i understand its desire to curb the use of rebuild kits and spindes manufactured by third parties, who may or may not manufacturer to Speedplay's specifications, and may or may not have the same quality control standards.

This is quite different from Specialized suing the Roubaix bicycle shop for pure trademark infringement.

[thirdgenbird]

It's not just axles. They have also shut down people selling used pedals.

I'm not saying its a reason to avoid speedplay. I've got no interest in the product, but I can see why some do.

[djg21]

It's not just axles. They have also shut down people selling used pedals.

I'm not saying its a reason to avoid speedplay. I've got no interest in the product, but I can see why some do.

Used pedals or grey market pedals (legitimate product sold through unauthorized channels)? A company can't limit a purchaser's ability to resell a used product under the "first sale" doctrine. In other words, there is nothing preventing you from selling your used pedals into a secondary market.

Generally speaking, a manufacturer may lawfully control the channels of distribution and take measures to protect authorized dealers from grey market competition (products sold without authorization into a given geographic market). There are some exceptions, but they are beyond the scope of this discussion.

I don't fault Speedpay for protecting its patents and itself from exposure by limiting access to alternative sources for critical parts. That is a business necessity.

[Rada]

For some one with no intellectual property rights, Richard Bryne (founder of Speedplay) sure has a lot of patents:

4,942,778 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,213,009 Cleat for clipless pedals

5,325,728 Locking mechanism for a clipless bicycle pedal

5,546,829 Clipless bicycle pedal system

5,606,894 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,687,618 Clipless bicycle pedal

5,862,716 Clipless bicycle pedal

6,425,304 Clipless pedal and method for assembling it

6,494,117 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,017,445 Pedal and related pedal/cleat assembly

7,174,807 Pedal/cleat assembly

7,472,498 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

7,877,904 Cleat assembly for clipless pedal

8,272,150 Shoe sole mounting standard for bicycle cleat

8,745,900 Aerodynamic bicycle shoe cover and pedal cover


Granted, the USPTO examiners are not always the most thorough in vetting patent applications, but with all of these patents granted, surely Bryne must have at least some valid intellectual property.

Not to mention 7,013,754. You know the one he is being sued for infringing upon. Thanks OldP for the advice once again, I do take my dollars elsewhere.

[CunegoFan]

Used pedals or grey market pedals (legitimate product sold through unauthorized channels)? A company can't limit a purchaser's ability to resell a used product under the "first sale" doctrine. In other words, there is nothing preventing you from selling your used pedals into a secondary market.


The way it often works is this: Dude wants to sell his used pedals on Fleabay. Instead of taking a pic himself, he googles for an image then ends up using an image owned by Speedplay. Speedplay then uses this to shut down the auction. Legal and all that but you have to wonder about a company that has people looking for any niggling thing they can find to prevent people from selling used pedals.

[thirdgenbird]

I don't fault Speedpay for protecting its patents and itself from exposure by limiting access to alternative sources for critical parts. That is a business necessity.

And I don't fault companies for protecting their copyrights.

[unterhausen]

For some one with no intellectual property rights, Richard Bryne (founder of Speedplay) sure has a lot of patents:
Granted, the USPTO examiners are not always the most thorough in vetting patent applications, but with all of these patents granted, surely Bryne must have at least some valid intellectual property.

I stand corrected. I'm sure some of them are b.s., but the one I looked at was a fairly solid patent as these things go.

8,272,150 is almost a perfect indictment of how horrible our patent system is though. The claims made me laugh

[djg21]

The way it often works is this: Dude wants to sell his used pedals on Fleabay. Instead of taking a pic himself, he googles for an image then ends up using an image owned by Speedplay. Speedplay then uses this to shut down the auction. Legal and all that but you have to wonder about a company that has people looking for any niggling thing they can find to prevent people from selling used pedals.


So you remain free to sell used pedals on Ebay so long as you don't use Speedplay's copyrighted stock images in your auction post? How is this unreasonable?

[Mark McM]

It's not just axles. They have also shut down people selling used pedals.

Can you give any examples of that? I just stepped over to ebay and did a search on "Speedplay pedals", it returned over 300 results including many new used pedals and cleats. If they're trying to shut down used pedal sales, they're not doing a very good job.

[thirdgenbird]

Can you give any examples of that? I just stepped over to ebay and did a search on "Speedplay pedals", it returned over 300 results including many new used pedals and cleats. If they're trying to shut down used pedal sales, they're not doing a very good job.

No, I don't care that much. If speedplay is the best pedal for you, buy them. If they are not, don't.

I seem to remember a huge blowup on weight weenies after a guy got threatened for listing multiple pairs. Im guessing they have since relaxed their stance due to the publicity. I know I have seen people say you should only list one or two pairs at a time to avoid issues. Again, I don't really care.

Edit:
Ok, guilt lead me to a quick google search. Lots of examples:
http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/252876-poo-poo-speedplay-they-just-had-ebay-remove-my-bebop-pedal-ad.html

The OP from this thread had a silly listing for bebop pedals that said "beats speedplay" and it was pulled

Another poster had his auction pulled because his description was "too close" to that on the speedplay site

A third had his pulled because the picture of the item included the box which had a copywrited image used improperly.

Speedplay may have lightened up, but they have a history of shutting down ebay sales. They are free to exercise this legal right but they seem to get a pass when specialized is just viewed as a bully.

[Mark McM]

The way it often works is this: Dude wants to sell his used pedals on Fleabay. Instead of taking a pic himself, he googles for an image then ends up using an image owned by Speedplay. Speedplay then uses this to shut down the auction. Legal and all that but you have to wonder about a company that has people looking for any niggling thing they can find to prevent people from selling used pedals.

So, you feel that theft of copyrighted photos should be okay?

How about if I made and sold product X, and needed a photo of a happy user of product X for an advertisement. Rather than take a photo myself, I did a good search, and found a picture you posted of yourself using product X. I decided to copy that photo and use it in my advertisement without asking you. What that be okay?

[Mark McM]

The OP from this thread had a silly listing for bebop pedals that said "beats speedplay" and it was pulled

When was this? Was it during the time that Speedplay was in active litigation with Bebop? If so, then it is understandable if Speedplay was sensitive about this.

Another poster had his auction pulled because his description was "too close" to that on the speedplay site

So, intellectual theft of copyrighted material?

A third had his pulled because the picture of the item included the box which had a copywrited image used improperly.

So, definitely a theft of copyrighted material.

Speedplay may have lightened up, but they have a history of shutting down ebay sales. They are free to exercise this legal right but they seem to get a pass when specialized is just viewed as a bully.

The Specialized case against involving the Canadian bike shop over the Roubaix name was quite different. The Canadian shop did not use the Specialized name, nor any copyrighted material from Specialized. The name "Roubaix" had already been used (and continues to be used) for many products, both within and outside the bicycle community, not just by Specialized. And besides which, Specialized themselves did not own the Roubaix trademark in Canada anyway.

[thirdgenbird]

I directly said speedplay can exercise that legal right. It doesn't bother (its just silly) me, but it also looks like other companies don't bother with it. Again, speedplay is getting a pass for exercising their legal right.

Yeah, the Roubaix deal was messy but I fully support specialized in their other copyright endeavors. Seems most wrote them off long before the Roubaix issue.

Specalized did/does have Roubaix registered in Canada by the way.

Edit: wait? You think technical specs are copyrighted material? It sounds like he typed out a few basic specs. You think it is understandable to pull a frame auction down because they list the geo and weight? What if their picture shows the trademarked name on the downtube?

It seems very few care, and actually defend, that speedplay does petty things like pulling down ebay auctions that show a photo of the package but specialized gets boycotted when they protect their trademarks. Besides, I'm guessing Fair Use would allow someone to post a picture of a speedplay box on ebay.

[djg21]

Edit: wait? You think technical specs are copyrighted material? It sounds like he typed out a few basic specs. You think it is understandable to pull a frame auction down because they list the geo and weight? What if their picture shows the trademarked name on the downtube?

As a matter of pure copyright law, the answer is "it depends." The information is not protected. The basic premise of copyright is that ideas are never protected; it is the expression of the ideas that is protected.

Your analogy to frames is misplaced. You are always free to list the weight and geometry of frame.

On the other hand, the way the information is organized and expressed may be protected. Thus, if you copy a geometry chart, or a description of a product, from a company website and then paste it into your description of a product being sold on Ebay, you very well may be infringing on a copyright, and the manufacturer has every right to protect its rights.

To complicate matters further, the law recognizes that there is some information that can only be expressed in limited ways. Thus, things like forms in which you fill in addresses are very hard to protect.

Again, I have no qualms with any company protecting its intellectual property, and Speedplay's vigilance is nothing like Specialized's apparent overreach with respect to the "Roubaix" mark.

[thirdgenbird]

I get that copying and pasting directly from a website is an infringement but it seems petty to go after this. It happens all the time on ebay, craigslist, and here. It sounds like the listing in question was not a copy and paste either. There isn't much expression on a list of technical specs so it seems like a petty way to dal with things.

The Roubaix issue may have been an overreach, but mistakes happen. I still maintain that specialized is not unusual on the way they handled this. Small businesses get cease and desist letters regularly. If the media wouldn't sensationalize things with "war veteran" claims, the public opinion might be different.


You appear to know the law. Is a picture of the retail packaging protected by fair use?

[Mark McM]

Specalized did/does have Roubaix registered in Canada by the way.

No, they don't. Specialized doesn't hold the "Roubaix" trademark registration at all. They license it from Fuji, which holds registration in North America (and probably other parts of the world). Specialized licenses the trademark from Fuji. So, it was really in Fuji's court if they were interested in preventing trademark infringement. But wait, since Specialized licenses the trademark, would they be able to seek an injunction as an interested party? No again, because Specialized trademark license didn't cover Canada.

Edit: wait? You think technical specs are copyrighted material? It sounds like he typed out a few basic specs.

Did he simply write out the specs, or did he copy & paste from a (copyrighted) web page?

It seems very few care, and actually defend, that speedplay does petty things like pulling down ebay auctions that show a photo of the package but specialized gets boycotted when they protect their trademarks. Besides, I'm guessing Fair Use would allow someone to post a picture of a speedplay box on ebay.

A big difference is, Specialized appears to often over reach what they believe their trademark rights actually cover. Trademarks, especially those that use common words or names (like "Roubaix"), can only cover specific applications. For example, if you Google "Dura Soft", you'll see a wide variety of products that that use this name, from contact lenses, to sports compression wraps, to thermal insulation, to caster wheels. As long as it can be shown that the use of name for one application is not likely to cause confusion for another application, a trademarked name can be reused. It is unlikely that a customer would confuse a "Dura Soft" caster wheel with a "Dura Soft" contact lens.

Specialized claimed that naming a bike shop in Canada "Roubaix Café" would be confused with the Specialized Roubaix model bicycle. Fuji, the actual owner of the "Roubaix" name for bicycles disagreed, and allowed the bike shop to continue to be called "Roubaix Café". On the other hand, calling an aftermarket pedal spindle a "Speedplay spindle" could easily cause confusion with the pedals and spindles made by the Speedplay company.

[djg21]

I get that copying and pasting directly from a website is an infringement but it seems petty to go after this. It happens all the time on ebay, craigslist, and here. It sounds like the listing in question was not a copy and paste either. There isn't much expression on a list of technical specs so it seems like a petty way to dal with things.

The Roubaix issue may have been an overreach, but mistakes happen. I still maintain that specialized is not unusual on the way they handled this. Small businesses get cease and desist letters regularly. If the media wouldn't sensationalize things with "war veteran" claims, the public opinion might be different.


You appear to know the law. Is a picture of the retail packaging protected by fair use?

As to fair use, are you talking about a picture you take? Assuming so, I suppose it depends on what the picture depicts? If you photograph the product description on the retail box rather than cut and paste the same description from the company website, that may be infringement. On the other hand, if you have picture of the product package under your Christmas tree, that is less likely to be an infringement. So the answer again is: it depends.

On edit: btw, this isn't really a "fair use" issue; it's a question of whether there is infringement.

[CunegoFan]

So, you feel that theft of copyrighted photos should be okay?

How about if I made and sold product X, and needed a photo of a happy user of product X for an advertisement. Rather than take a photo myself, I did a good search, and found a picture you posted of yourself using product X. I decided to copy that photo and use it in my advertisement without asking you. What that be okay?

If someone used a pic of mine in an eBay I would not give a damn. I certainly would not be trawling through eBay auctions every day trying to find someone using one of my pictures.

You seem to be ignoring that this a very weird behavior for a company. Use of companies' product pics is endemic on eBay. What other company does what Speedplay's does? This has nothing to with protecting Speedplay's intellectual property. That is a canard Speedplay uses to screw its customers. This is a company that does not believe in a customer's right to sell something they bought, and it will do anything to prevent people from doing it.

The Bebop case demonstrates the character of the owner. After filing a bogus lawsuit against tiny Bebop and losing, the owner then held a grudge because his legal dirty tactics did not work. Speedplay then used its market power to prevent LBS' from stocking Bebop's pedals. This was little different than Specialized leaning on LBSes to prevent them from selling Giro shoes.

[CunegoFan]

I seem to remember a huge blowup on weight weenies after a guy got threatened for listing multiple pairs.


I think that was when someone acquired ten pair of new pedals from a bike shop going out of business or a bankruptcy sale or something. He got them for a really good price so he thought he would make a bit of money selling them on eBay. Whoops. The owner of Speedplay convinced himself, with zero evidence, it must be a bike shop selling pedals on the sly for too low of a price and shut down the auction.

[thirdgenbird]

I think that was when someone acquired ten pair of new pedals from a bike shop going out of business or a bankruptcy sale or something. He got them for a really good price so he thought he would make a bit of money selling them on eBay. Whoops. The owner of Speedplay convinced himself, with zero evidence, it must be a bike shop selling pedals on the sly for too low of a price and shut down the auction.

That rings a bell.

[bluesea]

I get what's being said. The legal right to be chicken sh**, doesn't make it aesthetically acceptable. L-O-L

[oldpotatoe]

If someone used a pic of mine in an eBay I would not give a damn. I certainly would not be trawling through eBay auctions every day trying to find someone using one of my pictures.

You seem to be ignoring that this a very weird behavior for a company. Use of companies' product pics is endemic on eBay. What other company does what Speedplay's does? This has nothing to with protecting Speedplay's intellectual property. That is a canard Speedplay uses to screw its customers. This is a company that does not believe in a customer's right to sell something they bought, and it will do anything to prevent people from doing it.

The Bebop case demonstrates the character of the owner. After filing a bogus lawsuit against tiny Bebop and losing, the owner then held a grudge because his legal dirty tactics did not work. Speedplay then used its market power to prevent LBS' from stocking Bebop's pedals. This was little different than Specialized leaning on LBSes to prevent them from selling Giro shoes.

No special-ed leaned on LBS' and Scott bikes instead.

[oldguy00]

...
I do not like their aggressive patent enforcement and strict MAP pricing policy. However, I do not buy my cycling gear based on politics or business practices.

.....


Same here. I also love my Specialized shoes and helmet.
Like many here, I've tried all the different pedals, keep coming back to speedplay.

[tylerbick]

Man I love this thread!

[Mark McM]

Some may disagree with Speedplay's intellectual property protection actions, but in at least one way, Speedplay has been more supportive of customers than many companies. Specifically, Speedplay has not abandoned support for any product in the field or obsoleted any designs*. They make available replacement and upgrade parts for all their products. Their cleats will not only adapt to most shoes today, they are still compatible with mounting standards that have been abandoned by their originators. They assist customers with special needs by supplying spindles in variety of lengths (for people with Q factor issues), cleat shims (for people with leg length discrepancies), and cleat fore/aft positioning adapters (for people with physiological issues that require the cleats to be mounted more fore or aft than most shoes allow).

Even though Speedplay started selling pedals over 20 years ago, cleats made today will still work with 20 year old pedals, and pedals made today will still work with 20 year old cleats. They have made many upgrades and and improvement to their pedals and cleats over the years, but they have always assured that there would be full backward and forward compatibility (and in most cases, existing pedals could be upgraded). Those new walkable Zero cleats? They work with all Zero pedals ever made. Those new aero pedals, and the Pave pedals? They also work with existing cleats.

*The only exception to their support of older products is their first MTB pedal, the Magnum. This pedal was only on the market for a year or so before it was replaced with a better pedal, the Frog. But even here they didn't leave their customers completely in the lurch - for several years, they made available a kit that contained all the parts to convert a Magnum pedal into a Frog pedal (the kit cost a fraction as much as new pedals).

I don't know any pedal manufacturer that has a product support and compatibility policy as good as Speedplay's. For example, in the same time frame that Speedplay has been in existance, Time has made and abandonded two different shoe mounting standards (TBT and TWT). If you have older TBT shoes, Time doesn't make cleats that fit them anymore - but today's Speedplay cleats will still these shoes just fine.

[kophinos]

Did anyone mention that these look like an iron cross?

[oldpotatoe]

Some may disagree with Speedplay's intellectual property protection actions, but in at least one way, Speedplay has been more supportive of customers than many companies. Specifically, Speedplay has not abandoned support for any product in the field or obsoleted any designs*. They make available replacement and upgrade parts for all their products. Their cleats will not only adapt to most shoes today, they are still compatible with mounting standards that have been abandoned by their originators. They assist customers with special needs by supplying spindles in variety of lengths (for people with Q factor issues), cleat shims (for people with leg length discrepancies), and cleat fore/aft positioning adapters (for people with physiological issues that require the cleats to be mounted more fore or aft than most shoes allow).

Even though Speedplay started selling pedals over 20 years ago, cleats made today will still work with 20 year old pedals, and pedals made today will still work with 20 year old cleats. They have made many upgrades and and improvement to their pedals and cleats over the years, but they have always assured that there would be full backward and forward compatibility (and in most cases, existing pedals could be upgraded). Those new walkable Zero cleats? They work with all Zero pedals ever made. Those new aero pedals, and the Pave pedals? They also work with existing cleats.

*The only exception to their support of older products is their first MTB pedal, the Magnum. This pedal was only on the market for a year or so before it was replaced with a better pedal, the Frog. But even here they didn't leave their customers completely in the lurch - for several years, they made available a kit that contained all the parts to convert a Magnum pedal into a Frog pedal (the kit cost a fraction as much as new pedals).

I don't know any pedal manufacturer that has a product support and compatibility policy as good as Speedplay's. For example, in the same time frame that Speedplay has been in existance, Time has made and abandonded two different shoe mounting standards (TBT and TWT). If you have older TBT shoes, Time doesn't make cleats that fit them anymore - but today's Speedplay cleats will still these shoes just fine.

Don't forget SPD-R also. SP is a small company who, as you mentioned, supports their customers well..You just have to talk to SP is all.

Do people get twisted when they have to call Southwest Airlines to get a ticket, instead of "cheapplaneticketsof the day"..doubt it.

[Wakatel_Luum]

Even though Speedplay started selling pedals over 20 years ago, cleats made today will still work with 20 year old pedals, and pedals made today will still work with 20 year old cleats. They have made many upgrades and and improvement to their pedals and cleats over the years, but they have always assured that there would be full backward and forward compatibility (and in most cases, existing pedals could be upgraded). Those new walkable Zero cleats? They work with all Zero pedals ever made. Those new aero pedals, and the Pave pedals? They also work with existing cleats.

I don't know any pedal manufacturer that has a product support and compatibility policy as good as Speedplay's. For example, in the same time frame that Speedplay has been in existance, Time has made and abandonded two different shoe mounting standards (TBT and TWT). If you have older TBT shoes, Time doesn't make cleats that fit them anymore - but today's Speedplay cleats will still these shoes just fine.

Well as I see it Speedplay's fault is they haven't updated the cleats, they still rock side to side and become unstable...Speedplay need to fix this rather than making their cleats walkable etc...

TIME abandoned their 4 hole cleat system as most shoes were using the 3 hole LOOk system so they adapted to increase sales and market share etc, I personally doubt shoe manufactures sell many of the 4 hole cleated shoes in comparison...

I maybe wrong but don't LOOK cleats still work over current and previous generations of pedals?

[oldpotatoe]

Well as I see it Speedplay's fault is they haven't updated the cleats, they still rock side to side and become unstable...Speedplay need to fix this rather than making their cleats walkable etc...

TIME abandoned their 4 hole cleat system as most shoes were using the 3 hole LOOk system so they adapted to increase sales and market share etc, I personally doubt shoe manufactures sell many of the 4 hole cleated shoes in comparison...

I maybe wrong but don't LOOK cleats still work over current and previous generations of pedals?

Nope..when Look made 'Keo', they also changed the cleat so they weren't cross compatible with older Look 'Delta' pedal types. Look still makes 'Delta' cleats but when they morphed to Keo, all their cleats became Keo type cleats.

This horse is beaten but early generation Looks, with a non-replaceable platform, wore and rocked around a lot. Same as SP can do BUT the difference is you can buy bowties/plates/pedal pucks and fix the issue with SP..with Look, you have to replace (both) pedals. Yes, you can buy one pedal from SP.

[Wakatel_Luum]

This horse is beaten but early generation Looks, with a non-replaceable platform, wore and rocked around a lot. Same as SP can do BUT the difference is you can buy bowties/plates/pedal pucks and fix the issue with SP..with Look, you have to replace (both) pedals. Yes, you can buy one pedal from SP.

Well that's handy to know...two crap pedal systems I won't be using in the near future...

[oldpotatoe]

Well that's handy to know...two crap pedal systems I won't be using in the near future...

I think the real question is if the stainless steel plate on Look Keo gets worn, can you bu a new one..I'm thinkin' no but I never tried.

Except for kinda numb feet, I really liked these. I have my Zeros down to no float anyway..just a little toe in, like I've been doing for over 2 decades starting with my Ciocc, SR group, Detto shoes...

[Mark McM]

Well as I see it Speedplay's fault is they haven't updated the cleats, they still rock side to side and become unstable...Speedplay need to fix this rather than making their cleats walkable etc...

Well, Speedplay makes stainless steel cleat plates which cover the plastic contact surface, so that can slow down the cleat wear. And the new all metal Pave pedals will probably also slow down wear on the pedal's contact surfaces. So maybe Speedplay has addressed this.

TIME abandoned their 4 hole cleat system as most shoes were using the 3 hole LOOk system so they adapted to increase sales and market share etc, I personally doubt shoe manufactures sell many of the 4 hole cleated shoes in comparison...

Well, they must sell enough that there are many shoe manufacturers still making 4 hole shoes. Although, since Time no longer makes 4 hole cleats, these shoes are called Speedplay shoes. A short list of a few shoe manufacturers that make them are Sidi, Gaerne, Lake, DMT, etc.

[whforrest]

I still day dream that in the next 5 yrs I'll do the Flanders and roubaix rides and if course watch the races. I got them because they look cool. It's all good!


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