Better than Eddy Merckx...

[weisan]

A year-end tribute to a complete rider who can truly do it all; sprint, climb, time-trial, win grand tours, track, MTB, one-day classics, cobblestones, mountain-top finish...AND not to mention, cyclocross! I guess in that aspect, she is superior to Eddy.

Please meet Miss Marianne Vos, a truly exceptional rider of her generation...No, wait! In ANY generation, both past, present...and quite possibly in the future.

http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/marianne-vos-430f840d472b4e2e.jpeg
http://cdn3.coresites.mpora.com/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/VosZolder.jpg
https://default.secure.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/11141/000009267/0de1/revolution2012-dec1-Vos--Armistead.jpg
http://www.jonathanandrewphotography.com/data/photos/120_1marianne_vos_final.jpg
http://cyclingweekly.media.ipcdigital.co.uk/11141/000008a18/62cd_orh315w315/worlds12-women-rr-vos-attacks.jpg
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/67943_571204139574555_2012327368_n.jpg
http://www.giant-bicycles.com/_upload/teamsriders/riders/other/2012/vos_worlds_2.jpg
http://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/sea-otter-short-track-2013-women-cxmagazine-img_6761-c_1-e.jpg
http://tenspeedhero.com/wp-content/uploads/marianne-vos.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdblufFiV11qcabcuo1_1280.jpg

[Nags&Ducs]

Very impressive lady!!!

[FlashUNC]

Its her world. We just live in it.

[ultraman6970]

Well you have to count Jenny Longo and for sure Leontien van Moorsel aswell and cook from the UK, the last one retired because she got pissed off of the system. But yes, ms Vos is extraordinary.

[tv_vt]

She's a beauty in a lot of ways.

Check out the orange T-shirt in this photo over on Inner Ring: :)

http://inrng.com/2013/12/bike-and-coffeeshops/

[#campyuserftw]

Both of my eyebrows are raised. Women's cycling is dirty with dope. They don't test for it, but a fraction of the time. Jeannie Longo is most likely the Grandmother of Women's Doping, and the elite females of today are very well on the same "program". PEDS, they ain't just for men.

'You Cannot Find What You do not Look For':

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=1427094&highlight=doping#post1427094

'Vos and Others (Katie Compton) Highlight Lack of Anti-Doping in Women's Cycling':

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5196/Vos-and-others-highlight-lack-of-anti-doping-testing-in-womens-cycling.aspx

"Australian time trial champion Amber Halliday and her compatriot Tiffany Cromwell are similarly dissatisfied. “I am surprised at the lack of testing in cycling, especially considering the sports reputation and the push for cleanliness,” said Halliday.

“As an international rower I was tested at least three times a year, with two of those being out of competition. I’ve been in cycling almost two years and can only recall being tested once with another blood test that I was told was to take some baseline levels.”

"it's probably less prevalent" which you offer regarding female doping, is the stuff of Pat McQuaid and the great unknown. Are less women doping? Perhaps. Are the ones that do, less wrong? And how the heck would we know...if they aren't testing women as often and strictly as they do men?

Olympian Nicole Cooke..."I ask if drugs are as prevalent in women's cycling as men's. She says she doesn't know, but she has certainly come across doping often enough. On her first Tour de France, she shared a house with other cyclists. When she opened the fridge she discovered it was full of medicines, which she promptly chucked out. Were the other women annoyed with her? She laughs, and says no they just pretended to be appalled and said they knew nothing about them. "A couple of weeks later, my team stopped paying the wages for me and my team mate, who had also said no. We were the only two riders who didn't get our wages for the rest of the year."

Marta Bastianelli - a World Champion in 2007, and the fenfluramine aka fen-phen she tested positive for, a drug allowing her to feel full, while not eating.

UCI World Time Trial Champion in 2008, Amber Neben tested positive in 2004 for 19-norandrotestosterone.

2004 bronze medal champion Maria Luisa Calle tested positive for heptaminol, returned her medal, but won an appeal (in 2001 at age 43 she won the Pan American TT).

Candian Geneviève Jeanson admitted to using EPO almost continuously since her teenage years. She won several World Cup races but tested positive for EPO in 2005.

Christina Alcade Huertanos tested positive for steroids in 2006.

Maria Moreno positive for EPO in 2008 China Olympics.

Cindy Olavarri, US National Team member in the early 80's, gobbled up anabolic steroids for about four years, not testing positive at races, until the 84' Olympics.

Tammy Jones, US Track Cyclist. She had more muscle than most men on this forum, a Balco steroid byproduct, and was caught by drug testers who knocked on her door...as she was shaving her face.

Rita Razmaite of Lithuania, positive for Bromantan in 1996.

Article from 1989...it's been in, and with women, longer, and more prevalent, than most know:

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-05-...olympic-trials

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...exactly-how-is
__________________

[bloody sunday]

so then you would also know that Vos has been outspoken for the need for more testing in women's cycling.

[#campyuserftw]

so then you would also know that Vos has been outspoken for the need for more testing in women's cycling.

So did Lance.

I disbelieve.

Humor, folly, and irony:

http://road.cc/content/news/100193-jeannie-longo-sues-frances-anti-doping-agency-%E2%82%AC11-million

Ms. Jeannie Longo = Lady Lance

The women are pretty on the bike. Same women are pretty in sneakers, at the Olympic Track & Field, and those aerobic ladies learned how to dope, PED, steroid-up, just like the men. Sneakers, two wheels, or in the water, pretty within their one-piece suits, swimming at the Olympics...females cheat to win just like they boys.

[MattTuck]

She is no doubt a great cyclist. But the women's field is no where near as deep as the men's field.

If you had similar sponsor dollars and prize money for the women, and the accompanying salaries, I'm sure you could attract more female talent, and you'd probably get something more like what we have today on the men's side... a high degree of specialization.

I've been told that in Eddy's time, perhaps like the women today, there was not as much specialization and depth in the pro field as there is today.

[tv_vt]

Much as I dislike Campyuser's dishing on MV, I have to say, yeah, it's possible. My personality is not one of deeply questioning the status quo, and I want to believe in the good story like most people. But as we've seen, oftentimes it's the people who are the thorns in the side of the "heroes" and aren't buying the Cinderella stories one bit who turn out to be right when all the facts are known in the end.

For now, though, I still give Vos all the kudos she seems to have earned. If, in the future, things come out to prove otherwise, I'm sure I won't be the only one being disappointed.

[rwsaunders]

Great cyclist no doubt....I'm really trying very hard to weigh the comparison to EM but it's not working for me W-pal.

[cfox]

She is no doubt a great cyclist. But the women's field is no where near as deep as the men's field.

If you had similar sponsor dollars and prize money for the women, and the accompanying salaries, I'm sure you could attract more female talent, and you'd probably get something more like what we have today on the men's side... a high degree of specialization.

I've been told that in Eddy's time, perhaps like the women today, there was not as much specialization and depth in the pro field as there is today.

This is true and an issue for a lot of women's sports. My in-laws are die hard Uconn women's basketball fans. They happily watch every minute of them winning 98% their games by 50 points. Doesn't really do it for me.

[bluto]

But the women's field is no where near as deep as the men's field.

...I'm really trying very hard to weigh the comparison to EM but it's not working for me



these

[oldpotatoe]

But a comparison to Eddy Merckx doesn't do it for me.

-only 26 years old
-women's field, like it or not, not the talent nor depth as the men' pro field, then or now.
-has a long way to go to get over 30% wins of the races she entered, along with 11(I think) Grand Tour overall Wins including starting and finishing in the leaders jersey, keeping the entire race or winning all the 'jerseys', sprinter, climber, overall.

So, yes, great cyclist, best women cyclist of 'our' time.

[FlashUNC]

She's doing stuff no one's done since Merckx, man or woman, and a throwback to that Merckx era when people actually raced, yanno, all the time and across disciplines.

I'd rather watch any race she's in than Froome et al.

Yeah, she's got a long way to go to pass Eddy, but she's on that kind of trajectory.

[Ti Designs]

If you have to turn to magazines or the internet to find great cyclists, you probably don't ride enough. Great cyclists are the ones who put in the effort and show the results. Focusing on the top of the sport doesn't make sense to me. There are riders who can rip my legs off - I understand that. There are riders who can rip the legs off the people who can rip my legs off - I get that too. Take that another 10 levels up and it doesn't translate into anything I understand. It's like saying you understand Formula 1 'cause you've driven a sports car - no, you don't.

[weisan]

Interesting alternative viewpoints.

I know it's not an apple-to-apple comparison...but I guess i singled her out in her participation in various disciplines and winning the races she entered in dominating fashion.

[jds108]

If you have to turn to magazines or the internet to find great cyclists, you probably don't ride enough. Great cyclists are the ones who put in the effort and show the results. Focusing on the top of the sport doesn't make sense to me. There are riders who can rip my legs off - I understand that. There are riders who can rip the legs off the people who can rip my legs off - I get that too. Take that another 10 levels up and it doesn't translate into anything I understand. It's like saying you understand Formula 1 'cause you've driven a sports car - no, you don't.

Yeah, but if you've driven a high performance go-kart you understand just a little about F1... And I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

[rwsaunders]

Interesting alternative viewpoints.

I know it's not an apple-to-apple comparison...but I guess i singled her out in her participation in various disciplines and winning the races she entered in dominating fashion.

There's no question that she's kicking arse and taking names, W-pal.

[Wilkinson4]

Well you have to count Jenny Longo and for sure Leontien van Moorsel aswell and cook from the UK, the last one retired because she got pissed off of the system. But yes, ms Vos is extraordinary.

Have to throw Beryl Burton into the conversation as well.

From Wiki

"In 1967, she set a new 12-hour time trial record of 277.25 miles – a mark that surpassed the men’s record of the time by 0.73 miles and was not superseded by a man until 1969. While setting the record she caught and passed Mike McNamara who was on his way to setting the men's record at 276.52 miles and winning that year's men's British Best All-Rounder. She is reputed to have given him a liquorice allsort as she passed him. Apparently, McNamara ate the sweet."


mIKE

[Matthew]

Maybe Vos is doping. Maybe she isn't. I think Weisan was simply pointing out that she is a phenominal cyclist in all disciplines. And maybe the comparison to Merckx is a bit off but didn't he test positive at least once? Maybe we should just never post anything about pro cycling again since it always ends up to be a conversation about doping.

[fiamme red]

Yes, Vos is the greatest cyclist of all time. Also, Lisa Leslie is the greatest basketball player of all time. :rolleyes:

[ultraman6970]

Remember this woman... a bunch of world tittles as well. Sad she passed away so young tho.

Have to throw Beryl Burton into the conversation as well.

From Wiki

"In 1967, she set a new 12-hour time trial record of 277.25 miles – a mark that surpassed the men’s record of the time by 0.73 miles and was not superseded by a man until 1969. While setting the record she caught and passed Mike McNamara who was on his way to setting the men's record at 276.52 miles and winning that year's men's British Best All-Rounder. She is reputed to have given him a liquorice allsort as she passed him. Apparently, McNamara ate the sweet."


mIKE

[cash05458]

Yes, Vos is the greatest cyclist of all time. Also, Lisa Leslie is the greatest basketball player of all time. :rolleyes:

lol...very true...I don't think there are going to be any big thick books about Vos...but then again that is just another of the world's big injustices I suppose...

[Admiral Ackbar]

Beryl Burton was a proper brilliant athlete, way before my time but I've always looked up to her accomplishments, its seriously mind blowing what she achieved

[weisan]

That's what I like about here, I always look forward to learning something new..Beryl Burton, I am going to look her up...

[ultraman6970]

There's a bunch of champions (male and female) that are long forgotten due to media. Nakano... Reg Harris... australians have a bunch of sprinters almost nobody knows about, canada had a track sprinter that was faster than nakano. In the road many good riders died as domestiques due to personal interests in the teams, the way pro peloton is..

[weisan]

Very interesting video (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=__2w6mXTNMk) on Beryl Burton...

[bikingshearer]

Have to throw Beryl Burton into the conversation as well.

Absolutely. She is absolutely on the very short list in any discussion of the best-ever women bike racers. This is no slam on Vos or van Morsel or Longo or anyone else, just acknowledging an amazing talent.

[AgilisMerlin]

http://www.pavepavepave.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/2012-cyclocross-world-cup-namur-108-marianne-vos.jpg

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/oly080612/l16_49490479.jpg

http://rtc-buitenlust.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Marianne-Vos-Clinic.jpg

[victoryfactory]

When (if ever) will we be able to give props to any great
cyclist without going "there"
sad

VF

[fiamme red]

Absolutely. She is absolutely on the very short list in any discussion of the best-ever women bike racers. This is no slam on Vos or van Morsel or Longo or anyone else, just acknowledging an amazing talent.Also, unlike the others you mentioned, Burton was an amateur, with a day job.

In 1967, she beat the British men's record for a 12-hour time trial, with 277 miles. In 1968, she was invited to ride the most famous men's professional time trial, the Grand Prix des Nations (Gimondi won it that year). Burton turned in a time that was respectable even for a male professional, riding the rolling, twisty 73.5 km at an average speed of 42 km/h.

Marianne Vos, as good as she is in other respects, is not a great time trialist.

[Germany_chris]

She's got my respect! I no more want to see her in a bikini that a male cyclist in a speedo.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . about the role of totally natural hormones--particularly testosterone--in women's athletic performance in relation to this issue.

From what I have read in the past, I understand that this male hormone controls many of the biological characteristics that add up to athletic performance. Women have less than men, but they DO produce their own.

Would the differences between individual's performance in women be more accentuated than between men because of natural variances in the levels of self-produced testosterone?

Are women OR men racers required to be tested for natural levels before being allowed to compete? Or are tests done only to determine if the individual has been spiking with artificial testosterone? I remember that's what tripped Landis up--positive for artificial testosterone.

There are a whole lot of biological factors due to hormones that make us male or female, entirely apart from secondary visible physical characteristics.

Just a factor I have not seen anyone mention here. But regardless of that, the performances of Vos and others like Burton, Longo, and Katie Compton are still amazing and they deserve great respect.

BBD

[Wesley37]

. . . about the role of totally natural hormones--particularly testosterone--in women's athletic performance in relation to this issue.

From what I have read in the past, I understand that this male hormone controls many of the biological characteristics that add up to athletic performance. Women have less than men, but they DO produce their own.

Would the differences between individual's performance in women be more accentuated than between men because of natural variances in the levels of self-produced testosterone?

Are women OR men racers required to be tested for natural levels before being allowed to compete? Or are tests done only to determine if the individual has been spiking with artificial testosterone? I remember that's what tripped Landis up--positive for artificial testosterone.

There are a whole lot of biological factors due to hormones that make us male or female, entirely apart from secondary visible physical characteristics.

Just a factor I have not seen anyone mention here. But regardless of that, the performances of Vos and others like Burton, Longo, and Katie Compton are still amazing and they deserve great respect.

BBD

There are definitely women with higher levels of testosterone, and this is not irrelevant, but the picture is a bit more complicated than that.

Consider, for example, the relationship between testosterone and social cooperation - the standard assumption being that testosterone increases competitiveness and aggression.

But this is not the case - at least for some people, testosterone increases COOPERATIVE behaviour (see for example http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v485/n7399/full/nature11136.html?WT.ec_id=NATURE-20120524%29).

The link between gender, hormones, and athletic performance is a lot more complicated than is assumed.

[#campyuserftw]

"Nicole Cooke, Britain’s greatest female road cyclist, claimed yesterday that doping in the sport has not been restricted to Lance Armstrong and the male peloton, but was widespread in women’s racing as well."

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/cycling/article3657791.ece

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/16/cyclist-nicole-cooke-say-exactly-how-is

Joachim, thwart, medical people can offer deeper insight and scope on male/female hormone levels, estrogen versus testosterone etc. Whether a male or female drives a racecar with a doped engine, the lab work is straight forward. Women's doping is nearly identical to men's, the drugs themselves, methods used, and benefits gained. Women want to go faster, higher, longer, too.

Male hematocrit levels are typically, naturally 42-52% and for women, 35-46%. Testing women would follow the same method, looking for a number that exceeds the high-bar, or a result where a spike took place. I imagine a women's period could impact such testing.

Steroid testing for females would be the same as men, as the lab is looking for markers of synthetic steroids. Think Tammy Thomas. Steroids to increase testosterone, muscle mass, aggression, recovery, and trim down. Men who use steroids, also take anti-estrogen drugs, which block the body's ability to make/use estrogen (we saw many baseball players test positive for Tamoxifen).

Human Growth Hormone, pituitary juice, it's not just for men, but all humans; HGH is now a hot drug in Hollywood. HGH has been popular with all athletes since it's medical release in 1981.

EPO to increase hematocrit levels. Appetite suppressants for dieting. Various masking agents to hide, or rinse out drugs from the system. Women could also store their blood, and potentially re-use it at a later date.

The UCI created the 50% Rule for hematocrit, back in the day when EPO was essentially Gatorade. A number, or blood viscosity had to be chosen to help prevent more deaths, and the 50% number remains for men.

Genevieve Jeanson, Canadian female cyclist, was the Lance of her sport. Much like Marion Jones, American track runner, was the Barry Bonds of her sport. Women's cycling seems to test little, rarely, or ever and what they test for, and how, should be...should be identical to men's cycling.

Here's the "I didn't" and, "I did":

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/canadian-cyclist-receives-life-ban-report-1.569921

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/canadian-cyclist-jeanson-admits-to-doping-1.675372

Perhaps Marianne Vos is better than Eddy Merckx, in the sense that she might have competed without using any PEDS whatsoever. We may never know, and this topic also touches on morality. That said, her accomplishments within her available races, Giro, Flanders, Fleche Wallonne, UCI World Championship and the Olympics, are impressive, and unlike 'pro' Liz Hatch (aka Anna Kournikova) who embraced only the sexy, sexism, look-at-me, Vos looks professionally gorgeous as she grinds her teeth to victory.

[weisan]

2014 elite women cyclocross world
http://youtu.be/4apa7FDCsco

[oddsaabs]

Congrats to MV! She was totally dominant and riding on a whole different level. Even if KFC had a better start she never stood a chance.

Hate to say it, but the last time we saw somebody that dominant he had 7 TDF's taken away.

[tuscanyswe]

. . . about the role of totally natural hormones--particularly testosterone--in women's athletic performance in relation to this issue.

From what I have read in the past, I understand that this male hormone controls many of the biological characteristics that add up to athletic performance. Women have less than men, but they DO produce their own.

Would the differences between individual's performance in women be more accentuated than between men because of natural variances in the levels of self-produced testosterone?

Are women OR men racers required to be tested for natural levels before being allowed to compete? Or are tests done only to determine if the individual has been spiking with artificial testosterone? I remember that's what tripped Landis up--positive for artificial testosterone.

There are a whole lot of biological factors due to hormones that make us male or female, entirely apart from secondary visible physical characteristics.

Just a factor I have not seen anyone mention here. But regardless of that, the performances of Vos and others like Burton, Longo, and Katie Compton are still amazing and they deserve great respect.

BBD


Men also varies greatly. From the low end to high end it can be as much as 3.5 times the amount of testosterone in one man than in another yet both could be in the normal range for men.

Thought the fluctuations in womens T level were similar to mens. Remember they have about a 10th of the male level as i recall. But maybe the fluctuations are even greater and my memory is off.

[oldpotatoe]

Congrats to MV! She was totally dominant and riding on a whole different level. Even if KFC had a better start she never stood a chance.

Hate to say it, but the last time we saw somebody that dominant he had 7 TDF's taken away.

LA and his 'legacy' makes many(me included) skeptical of MC as well as KFC, or any uber dominant athlete. Sad but true.

[pdmtong]

KFC moved up from almost last after the entanglement. Pretty impressive

[malcolm]

doping won't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. you have to be in the top couple percent for it to be of use. me or most likely most of us doped to the gills would be pack fodder at best.

[Bkat]

Can't we just agree she's a really good cyclist and leave it at that without making baseless assumptions? Ya know, innocent until proven guilty and all that.

I for one prefer watching women's cyclocross to men's. It just seems more graceful. It's like watching gazelles instead of a cattle stampede.