OT: Do you wish Merry Holidays or Happy Christmas, or neither?

[Elefantino]

Have been doing a little test at the store this week. Some people I have wished "have a great (never 'merry') Christmas" and others "have a great (never 'happy') holiday" to see if there would be any reaction one way or another. Today, finally, there was one to "holiday" ... a woman's response: "we'll have a Merry Christmas and we hope you do too." Not said totally angrily, but more of a slight scolding tone, or maybe it was disappointment in her voice.

I'm assuming some people to whom I've said "Christmas" and are not Christians have not been bothered, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm also assuming that some people to whom I've said "holiday" are convinced the corporate office has forbidden us from mentioning the religious nature of the season, which obviously isn't the case.

What do you forumites, as consumers, feel about the salutations one way or another? Not that I'll change; just curious. I'll probably continue to experiment because I like studying human nature in its natural habitat.

Oh, and ... Season's Greetings!

[Louis]

These days Christmas as celebrated by most folks has so little to do with Christ and what he preached, IMO it's essentially a secular holiday - something to drive the economy.

As best I can tell, unless they're an active member of the Taliban, it's fine to wish just about anyone in the US a "Merry Christmas."

[akelman]

I'm Jewish, but there's no reason I can't have a Merry Christmas. And I assume the same is true for other people. That said, the ginned-up culture war over Christmas greetings has made me much more self-conscious at work. I still say Merry Christmas, but I worry I've done the wrong thing. Thanks, culture warriors!

[akelman]

.

[Vientomas]

Merry Commercialism and Happy New Fiscal Year.

[jr59]

It's always happy Holidays to me! Has been for years. Nothing to do about being PC, or Christ, or whatever. All the dates never really match up, so happy Holidays seems to cover all, at least for me. Of course on Christmas day it's Merry Christmas, and NYE, it's happy new year. Cause I know those dates.

[cfox]

My Jewish friends usually have a merrier Christmas than I do. A nice, quiet dinner at a Chinese place and a movie? Sounds good to me.

[roydyates]

Happy Holidays for me. Maybe half (or fewer?) of the people around East Brunswick celebrate xmas, even in secular form. Over the years, I've had enoug occasions that I've wished a Merry Christmas and it left the person with a look of "Doesn't he realize I don't celebrate Christmas?"

OTOH, perhaps half the people here also celebrate some other New Year. Generally I wish them Happy New Year both at the end of December and at some other time when their other calendar has a new year. I suppose the difference is that everyone here has their life structured by the shared calendar.

[BumbleBeeDave]

These days Christmas as celebrated by most folks has so little to do with Christ and what he preached, IMO it's essentially a secular holiday - something to drive the economy.

As best I can tell, unless they're an active member of the Taliban, it's fine to wish just about anyone in the US a "Merry Christmas."

This pretty much says it for me. I usually say "Merry Christmas" just to PO the PC-Heads.

But this year I'm telling everybody to "Have a Roubaix Christmas!" and if they ask what that is, I tell them I can't tell them or I'd get sued. ;)

BBD

[cfox]

Happy Holidays for me. Maybe half (or fewer?) of the people around East Brunswick celebrate xmas, even in secular form. Over the years, I've had enoug occasions that I've wished a Merry Christmas and it left the person with a look of "Doesn't he realize I don't celebrate Christmas?"

OTOH, perhaps half the people here also celebrate some other New Year. Generally I wish them Happy New Year both at the end of December and at some other time when their other calendar has a new year. I suppose the difference is that everyone here has their life structured by the shared calendar.

I'd be pretty annoyed if I got a "look" from someone for wishing them a merry Christmas. Next time, I'll just ignore you, Okay? Anyone who doesn't realize that MC is a benign holiday greeting is a pedantic twit. Okay, if I know someone is Jewish or another religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas in any form, I'm not saying MC, but otherwise...please...I'm being friendly

[fuzzalow]

Always a greeting of "Merry Christmas". This is not done to incite or provoke, but as genuine good wishes for the holidays and the winding down of the Gregorian calendar year. Anyone who could conceivably take that greeting for anything other than the spirit in which is was given has issues that are not of my concern.

In the retail environment (i.e. impersonal dealings with strangers and the implied power relationship held by the customer) I never hear a response other than "Happy Holidays", if there is any response at all. Probably the best and most innocuous tactic as there are psychos that only look for reasons to complain. And picking on powerless retail staff is an easy target.

In professional dealings the responses are less guarded, so the reply can be any response of the big 3 phrasings. With friends, the response is always either a "Merry Christmas" or a "Happy Hanukkah". And when given a response of "Happy Hanukkah", I like to reply with "Shalom".

True story: During her Senate confirmation hearing, Elena Kagan was questioned as to where she was on Christmas Day 2009. The senator was leading to a line of questioning concerning the Underwear Bomber plot but Ms. Kagan was not in tune with the question and puzzled as to the seeming randomness of the question. Her forthright and unguarded reply to the senator's question was "I was probably sitting in a Chinese restaurant with all the other Jews". Her reply brought the house down.

[OtayBW]

I lived in the rural South for 22 years and have been in many dozens of informal professional meetings (luncheons, banquets, etc in academia and even government), where they start off with some sort of blessing ending with 'in Jesus name we pray'. Always just seemed a little presumptuous in those kinds of situations, I guess.

I'd have to say that I'm more of a Festivus kind of guy, but other than that, I just usually say Happy Holidays....

[Lewis Moon]

I say Merry Christmas with as much intent of meaning as everyone else.

Axial tilt is the reason for the season.

[bobswire]

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays as fits the occasion,usually Merry Christmas unless I know I won't see them again until after the New year then Happy Holidays. I'm not religious nor do I connect Christmas with Jesus. Besides Christmas has it roots in Paganism, it is not the Grinch that stole Christmas it was Christians and probably a Republican to make a buck out of it.;)

[SlackMan]

If I am addressing a group in which I think someone might be offended, I say "Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays if you prefer." That usually gets big grins from lots of people.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[oldpotatoe]

Have been doing a little test at the store this week. Some people I have wished "have a great (never 'merry') Christmas" and others "have a great (never 'happy') holiday" to see if there would be any reaction one way or another. Today, finally, there was one to "holiday" ... a woman's response: "we'll have a Merry Christmas and we hope you do too." Not said totally angrily, but more of a slight scolding tone, or maybe it was disappointment in her voice.

I'm assuming some people to whom I've said "Christmas" and are not Christians have not been bothered, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm also assuming that some people to whom I've said "holiday" are convinced the corporate office has forbidden us from mentioning the religious nature of the season, which obviously isn't the case.

What do you forumites, as consumers, feel about the salutations one way or another? Not that I'll change; just curious. I'll probably continue to experiment because I like studying human nature in its natural habitat.

Oh, and ... Season's Greetings!

I'm not religious in any way. I follow no dogma, do not go to any church.....

BUT I always say 'Merry Christmas', just to show I have a right to say it, and refuse to be 'politically correct', by saying 'Happy Holidays'.

Let's not forget, Christmas, along with evergreen trees and such, is essentially a Pagan holiday along with easter...ya know bunnies, eggs, spring rebirth and all.

BTW-The VERY BEST day of the year..is tomorrow..when the days start getting longer..tonight I'm gonna celebrate Winter Solstice by running around naked outside in the 'hood at midnight..anybody wanna join me?

[OtayBW]

I'm not religious in any way. I follow no dogma, do not go to any church.....

BUT I always say 'Merry Christmas', just to show I have a right to say it, and refuse to be 'politically correct', by saying 'Happy Holidays'.

Let's not forget, Christmas, along with evergreen trees and such, is essentially a Pagan holiday along with easter...ya know bunnies, eggs, spring rebirth and all.

BTW-The VERY BEST day of the year..is tomorrow..when the days start getting longer..tonight I'm gonna celebrate Winter Solstice by running around naked outside in the 'hood at midnight..anybody wanna join me?
Just to be clear, my saying Happy Holidays is by choice because I prefer not to use a greeting affiliated with ANY religion - Political Correctness ain't got nothing to do with it.

[eddief]

of course this would not be an issue worth discussing. Thank god they give us something to talk about each day at the water cooler.

[fuzzalow]

If I am addressing a group in which I think someone might be offended, I say "Merry Christmas, or Happy Holidays if you prefer." That usually gets big grins from lots of people.

This is no way directed at you SlackMan, but it does implicate Texans with an cultural imagery that actions and behaviors of prominent Texans and oft times, Texas's governor, does nothing to dispel.

The way I see that response, as a NYer, is the big grin you receive from lots of people is from the singling out of religions other than Christians while the audience are ensconced in the comfort of being in the majority with their own faith. The inside joke is having to make the exception and an allowance for the "them" and not for the "you". I don't believe that audience is grinning because they feel proud of themselves at their progress with diversity.

[paulh]

Don't let your Karma run over your Dogma

[oldpotatoe]

Just to be clear, my saying Happy Holidays is by choice because I prefer not to use a greeting affiliated with ANY religion - Political Correctness ain't got nothing to do with it.

OK...groovy.(??)

So I guess you wont be joining me tonight.

[Black Dog]

Everyone knows that Jesus was a white protistan republican. He invented the christmas tree and santa….this is the type of non-sense that FOX news sells and people buy. It is like watching a gong show from here in the great white north (the real home of santa…we gave him a postal code: H0H 0H0)

Being a devout Atheist I must say that I like christmas and the family gatherings, generosity, and general festive spirit. But like Old Spud said it has been around as a solstice holiday long before the early Christians co-opted it for their own ends. I still say merry christmas a lot and some time happy holidays but for no particular reason. For all intents and purposes christmas is a secular holiday that has been commercialized beyond the point of absurdity like many other cultural events.

I remember a famous quote this time of year: "Just because you are offended does not mean that you are right"

[malcolm]

I'm an ardent non believer but I have no agenda. I use both happy holidays and merry Christmas. If you are offended by merry Christmas you must not have much pressing in your life or never read the news.

There is always "festivus it's for the rest of us"

[#campyuserftw]

There's about 1.2 billion people who believe a man was pegged to a cross, for his politically incorrect, Christian beliefs, and the 1.2 billion come in much, much more than the white, male, Republican flavor. Some 43% of Canada is Catholic.

There are 78.2 million Catholics in American, 24% of the US population and, "Catholics have made up a significant portion of the United States since the end of the 19th century, when Irish Catholics set sail for America to escape famine, according to the National Humanities Center. Around that same time, more than a quarter of Italy's population left its native land to find work in America, the "vast majority" of whom were Catholic, according to the American Immigration Law Foundation. Today, Catholics make up about a quarter of the U.S. population."

Italy - 88% Catholic
Ireland - 84%
America - 24%
Canada - 43%
Spain - 92%
Philippines - 81%
Argentina - 92%
Columbia - 88%
Costa Rica - 85%
Croatia - 87%
Dominican Republic - 88%
Guatemala - 81%
Luxembourg - 85%
Switzerland - 39%
Venezuela - 87%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/numbers-catholics-america/story?id=18619248

[Seramount]

usually go with 'happy holidays'...that covers all the bases and multiple occasions.

but, in certain situations, will sometimes opt for 'merry xmas, dammit...'

[Ahneida Ride]

There's about 1.2 billion people who believe a man was pegged to a cross, for his politically incorrect, Christian beliefs, and the 1.2 billion come in much, much more than the white, male, Republican flavor. Some 43% of Canada is Catholic.



uh .... what about all countries south of the American border ?
Like Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, Argentina, ....
Costa Rica alone is 83% Christian ...
Are all those souls White Republican Males ?

Christmas is a National Holiday declared by Congress in 1870 and
signed by President Grant. This fact is seldom mentioned.


So Christmas is identical to the 4th of July and Thanksgiving and Reverend
King Day. Thus, by law, it is legal to wish someone a Merry Christmas,
although it is not proper PC.

So ..... Merry Christmas .... and Mr. Scrooge and Ba Humbug to the PC
police. :banana:

[sc53]

These days Christmas as celebrated by most folks has so little to do with Christ and what he preached, IMO it's essentially a secular holiday - something to drive the economy.

As best I can tell, unless they're an active member of the Taliban, it's fine to wish just about anyone in the US a "Merry Christmas."

Louis--100% agree. At work, as I leave for the break, I wish my colleagues Merry Christmas without worrying about it and just get a "same to you" back.

[nbl78s]

I used to say Happy Holidays, being politically correct and all... But this year I've decided I'm going to say Merry Christmas, I'm tired of being politically correct. I have been surprised how many people kinda light up and say Merry Christmas back with a big smile on their face. It's like they are relieved and happy to say it back without being concerned that they are saying something wrong.

[Fishbike]

Don't let your Karma run over your Dogma

Just make sure your Dogma ain't a knock off. . .

[mccx]

Interesting that there's so much "Merry Christmas" out there! I work at a university and - not because it's full of godless athiests and politically correct word fascists - there's not much Merry Christmas around.

I hear a lot more "Happy Holidays" but it's not really referring to any specific holiday or religious occasion, but to the fact that we have a three week holiday from work. I'll thank whatever religious power you'd like me to for that blessed fact. I suppose "Merry Winter Break" would probably be more in keeping with the official bureaucratic term though.

[false_Aest]

I once wished someone Merry Christmas and he responded, "I'm not Christian."

Without thinking I responded (with a huge grin), "Well, lemme try to convert you!"

Thankfully he got the joke and said, "Merry Christmas to you too!"

[Tony T]

If I know that the person celebrates Christmas, I wish them a Merry Christmas, if they celebrate a different holiday, I try to be specific, and if I'm not sure, I wish them Happy Holidays. As the offer is to the recipient, this make the most sense.
The only thing I really can't stand (in print obviously) is Merry Xmas.

[bcroslin]

MERRY NEW YEAR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpqknwKbvDE)

[Frankwurst]

I'm not religious in any way. I follow no dogma, do not go to any church.....

BUT I always say 'Merry Christmas', just to show I have a right to say it, and refuse to be 'politically correct', by saying 'Happy Holidays'.

Let's not forget, Christmas, along with evergreen trees and such, is essentially a Pagan holiday along with easter...ya know bunnies, eggs, spring rebirth and all.

BTW-The VERY BEST day of the year..is tomorrow..when the days start getting longer..tonight I'm gonna celebrate Winter Solstice by running around naked outside in the 'hood at midnight..anybody wanna join me?

I'm with you on this one and yes I would love to join you if I were closer because this is the type of activity that appears to require some serious beer drinking and I'm all about any activity that involves beer drinking. Merry Christmas.:beer:

[OtayBW]

OK...groovy.(??)

So I guess you wont be joining me tonight.Hadn't really thought about it....

[witcombusa]

I'll have none of the PC crap that seems to be one of the cancers currently growing in the US of A.


Merry Christmas it is (and if you're offended, too damn bad!)

[zap]

Everyone knows that Jesus was a white protistan republican. He invented the christmas tree and santa….this is the type of non-sense that FOX news sells and people buy. It is like watching a gong show from here in the great white north (the real home of santa…we gave him a postal code: H0H 0H0)

Being a devout Atheist I must say that I like christmas and the family gatherings, generosity, and general festive spirit. But like Old Spud said it has been around as a solstice holiday long before the early Christians co-opted it for their own ends. I still say merry christmas a lot and some time happy holidays but for no particular reason. For all intents and purposes christmas is a secular holiday that has been commercialized beyond the point of absurdity like many other cultural events.

I remember a famous quote this time of year: "Just because you are offended does not mean that you are right"

We could do without the first bit.

[sg8357]

I like "Happy Appropriate Holidays!", so pc, it's not.

Grumpy note....
Merry Christmas only applies a few days before the 25th,
Xmas doesn't start the day after Thanksgiving.

Dec 26th is national exchange, so you wish them "Many happy returns"

[oldpotatoe]

Cut the crap in the first paragraph. This is not the first time either.

wow

sounds more appropriate to send a PM..yes?

[zap]

You are right.

Some of this (labeling if you will) has been creeping in here of late. An interesting thread and I saw that and got grumpy. My apologies.

Merry Christmas.

[victoryfactory]

Oy!

[Tony T]

We could do without the first bit.

Second bit as well.

[slidey]

Seasons greetings/best is what I dole out. Couldn't care less if anyone wished me any of the cheerful variants mentioned here, heck it wouldn't bother me one bit if they didn't wish either.

[Tony T]

Riding today a lady walking her dog wished me a Merry Christmas.
Made me smile :)

[kramnnim]

It's sad how people have nothing better to do than have problems with what you do or do not wish them. Like, the "Hi, how are you" greeting...we say "fine" even if we aren't. Who cares. And like was already mentioned...if someone hopes you have a merry 12/25 aka Christmas, why does there need to be an uproar? And because of this uproar, we have the people who go out of their way to use "Merry Christmas" as it it is their duty, to the point where it doesn't really seem like they do want the person to have a merry day since they are such awful people who don't share their beliefs.

There are too many other bad things going on, people should just ignore these meaningless "problems" and try to get along. Only that will never happen.

[Germany_chris]

In the retail world I'd just prefer you say something inane like have a good day. People I actually know, know better.

[Climb01742]

To me, the most important part of the salutation is the first word, not the second. The intent is expressed there, one person wishing another happiness. So on one level, what comes next is secondary.

As for the second word...

If I know the person and know what they celebrate, I'm specific, so it's either Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah.

But if I don't know the person, I'll go with happy holiday. It's not being PC. It's trying to be respectful of the person I'm taking that moment to wish happiness.

But isn't it the first word that matters most?

[witcombusa]

But isn't it the first word that matters most?



Not in the long run.

People trying to tell others what is or is not appropriate to say is the problem.

If they don't share your personal beliefs, they'll just have to get over it.

[1centaur]

Not religious, and "Merry Christmas" from me because that's the joyful day from my non-religious childhood so it is more authentic a wish than the alternatives.

Speaking of when I was a child (1960s, much of it in England), Merry Christmas was ubiquitous on Christmas cards and only as the years passed did Happy Holidays win significant share. It is difficult not to associate that with the rise of political correctness and/or bland inoffensiveness, and yes to the OP's point if someone in retail says Happy Holidays I presume it is mandated corporate bland inoffensiveness and therefore reads as inauthentic to my ear.

In general, I think people get WAY too offended too easily these days and I have so little sympathy for living life that way that Merry Christmas has a little bit of a gleeful edge for me.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's sad how people have nothing better to do than have problems with what you do or do not wish them . . .

I guess if somebody had a problem with me wishing them a Merry Christmas and called me on it, I'd be very tempted to answer, "Honestly, is THAT the biggest problem you have to deal with today? Me not giving you holiday greetings in the way you want?"

Way too many people these days seem to be just looking for a resaon to be offended. If it weren't that way, the comments pages on so many web sites would be virtually empty.

BBD

[mike p]

It's Merry Christmas to everybody for me......Jew, gentile, or muslim. If it happens to offend someone.....well that's just an added bonus.

Mike

[Tony T]

Why would anyone go out of their way to offend someone during Christmas?
BTW, a belated Happy Hanukkah :)

[chuckroast]

Happy Holidays in the office because...well because.

But in the real world, Merry Christmas.

[kramnnim]

Just got back from the store, where the checkout person said "happy holidays" to my wife, then realized she had just purchased $47 worth of Christmas cards/gift bags and followed up with "Merry Christmas". lol.

For some reason I got a "have a good night", even though I was also buying a Christmas card. :confused:

[christian]

Speaking of when I was a child (1960s, much of it in England), Merry Christmas was ubiquitous on Christmas cards and only as the years passed did Happy Holidays win significant share. It is difficult not to associate that with the rise of political correctness and/or bland inoffensivenessOne might equally associate it with the increased heterogeneity of religious observation in our part of the world.

[ariw]

I have a long time customer who knows that I am Jewish, wish me merry Christmas every year. It's become a bit of a joke between us, the first time it happened he was worried that I was really offended (I wasn't)

Ari

[1centaur]

If I were to estimate whether genuine religious heterogeneity or hyper worry about the possibility of offending anyone (and the meal that could be made of such) had increased more, I don't think it's close. America was overwhelmingly Christian or nothing much when I was a kid and the same is true today. And Christmas was pretty comfortably secular until certain segments started poking at the nominally religious edges of it for highly dubious reasons and thereby stirred up a backlash while pointing fingers everywhere except the mirror.

[slidey]

Can you enlighten me how Christmas can have ever been deemed secular? I give you that its extremely popular due to
1. it being a very fun experience for the kids involved, which parents across geographies/religions feel like adopting since it puts a smile on the kids' face,
2. the pure coincidence of the fact that Christmas happens to come very close to the last day of the Gregorian calendar, which albeit pointless is a universally relatable event.

So popular, sure...secular - I don't see the connection, 'cause to me there is none. Feel free to share more info though.

And Christmas was pretty comfortably secular until certain segments started poking at the nominally religious edges of it for highly dubious reasons and thereby stirred up a backlash while pointing fingers everywhere except the mirror.

[CaptStash]

To me, the most important part of the salutation is the first word, not the second. The intent is expressed there, one person wishing another happiness. So on one level, what comes next is secondary.

As for the second word...

If I know the person and know what they celebrate, I'm specific, so it's either Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah.

But if I don't know the person, I'll go with happy holiday. It's not being PC. It's trying to be respectful of the person I'm taking that moment to wish happiness.

But isn't it the first word that matters most?

+1

I don't get what's so offensive about being all inclusive. I certainly enjoy feeling included, although I am not offended in the least by Merry Christmas (I'm Jewish).

CaptStash.....

[Wesley37]

Have not read this whole thread, but Dan Savage seems to hit the nail on the head

I was never a "happy holidays" guy. Christmas was a big deal in my home growing up, and it's a big deal in the home I share with Terry. December is Christmas. I've always wished people "merry Christmas" without really giving it a thought. Ho-ho-ho.

But that's over now.

Sarah Palin and Bill O'Reilly and Fox News and the Family Research Council and the woman who allegedly punched another woman outside Walmart earlier this week for saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas" managed to break me of the "merry Christmas" habit. I suspect I'm not alone. This constant bitching from the right about "happy holidays"—a perfectly lovely expression that embraces Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Boxing Day, Pancha Ganapati, New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, Hanukkah, the Epiphany, Saint Nicholas's Day, Hogmanay, Twelfth Night, and Kwanzaa—has made one thing clear. Not that there is now, or ever was, a war on Christmas. But that saying "merry Christmas" is an asshole move. Just as conservatives made patriotism toxic during the Vietnam War by conflating it with blind obedience to authority ("My country, right or wrong!"), modern conservatives have made "merry Christmas" toxic by associating it with Christian fundamentalism, religious intolerance, and the politics of imagined persecution.

Unfortunately, the war on Christmas is a game Palin and O'Reilly and Fox News and the Family Research Council can't lose. The more they complain about people saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry Christmas," the fewer people will say "merry Christmas." This will be held up as proof that the war on Christmas is real. But people like me aren't replacing "merry Christmas" with "happy holidays" to be "politically correct," as Palin insists in the introduction to her stupid book, we're doing it because we don't want people to think we're assholes.

Sorry, but if you say "Merry Christmas" specifically because you want to say "stick it" to other people in a passive aggressive way, you are an a-hole.

If you want to regulate what other people say, if they wish you well but it is not good enough because you want them to use other specific words, then you are an a-hole. I have never had someone treat me badly while saying "happy holidays", I have gotten moderately abusive "Merry Xmas"es, so what does that say? That Merry Xmas is becoming the greeting of abusive jerks - thanks for nothing.

[1centaur]

Can you enlighten me how Christmas can have ever been deemed secular? I give you that its extremely popular due to
1. it being a very fun experience for the kids involved, which parents across geographies/religions feel like adopting since it puts a smile on the kids' face,
2. the pure coincidence of the fact that Christmas happens to come very close to the last day of the Gregorian calendar, which albeit pointless is a universally relatable event.

So popular, sure...secular - I don't see the connection, 'cause to me there is none. Feel free to share more info though.

Well, I think you've defined it fairly well yourself, but perhaps the way I think of it is that non-religious people can fully have a Christmas experience without the slightest sense that they are participating in a religious event, much like Easter. If religious people choose to do something related to their faith on the same day, great for them, but it is irrelevant to those who don't. Some of the songs have religious content and some don't. Whatever. That's diversity and tolerance at its best.

There was not the slightest whiff of religious content in my Christmases or Easter for the first 11 years of my life. When my mother and sister converted to Catholicism I had to endure midnight mass in the car (no babysitters) but otherwise Christmas remained Santa Claus and reindeer and Easter was eggs and chocolate. The same was true for my son. Religion and secular Christmas run parallel courses aware of each other but not interfering with each other unless someone chooses to do so. Christmas is not religious; religious people are religious.

[malcolm]

Well, I think you've defined it fairly well yourself, but perhaps the way I think of it is that non-religious people can fully have a Christmas experience without the slightest sense that they are participating in a religious event, much like Easter. If religious people choose to do something related to their faith on the same day, great for them, but it is irrelevant to those who don't. Some of the songs have religious content and some don't. Whatever. That's diversity and tolerance at its best.

There was not the slightest whiff of religious content in my Christmases or Easter for the first 11 years of my life. When my mother and sister converted to Catholicism I had to endure midnight mass in the car (no babysitters) but otherwise Christmas remained Santa Claus and reindeer and Easter was eggs and chocolate. The same was true for my son. Religion and secular Christmas run parallel courses aware of each other but not interfering with each other unless someone chooses to do so. Christmas is not religious; religious people are religious.

Very well said. I think for the religious it's clearly religious and I'm good with that. For me and mine it's more a tradition and kinda like thanksgiving a time to remember that life is awesome no matter what you believe and maybe a time to try and be a little kinder to one another.

As I read this thread I get the feeling that people that have posted here that they say merry Christmas to poke someone in the eye so to speak are mostly tongue in cheek and commenting on our PC nature and not literal.

Of all the people I know personally, Christian and non Christian I can't think of one that would be offended by any greeting as long as it was pleasant and remotely sincere. Maybe I hang with a better class of people than I thought.

[Climb01742]

As I read this thread I get the feeling that people that have posted here that they say merry Christmas to poke someone in the eye so to speak are mostly tongue in cheek and commenting on our PC nature and not literal.

i read some of those comments differently, but since we're both interpreting from afar, knowing with certainty is hard. i hope you're right, malcolm, but a few comments sure don't feel tongue in cheek.

america is changing. we're becoming a more diverse nation, with many more traditions coming together. some welcome that diversity and try to be sensitive to it. others feel threatened by it. what i see as common manners, others see as the 'PC' police. And they make a seasonal greeting into one more of their grievances against modernity.

[Fixed]

I say say happy holidays and a merry Christmas ,



To all ...:)
Cheers

[#campyuserftw]

"Happy Hanukkah", does this term offend any?

"Happy St. Patrick's Day"? Acknowledging "Veteran's Day"? Christmas and Christmastime is just that, a time and place for many people, and it's about seeing family, shopping for that right gift to give, eating with family, and much, much less about Christ himself.

My co-worker was excited for her daughter's "Holiday Concert" last week. In the office the day after, she let me know this:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12/19/some-parents-upset-after-l-i-school-removes-religious-references-from-silent-night/

So bent on not offending non-Christians, Silent Night was butchered.

The 'Sevivon' is a traditional Hanukkah song. Are it's words, "a great miracle here" at risk? 'Mi Y'male' is another classic. Will the word, "Israel" need to be removed, as religion and state should not mix in holiday music?

Leave people alone. Leave their cultures and classics be. Let them call their bike shop, 'Cafe Roubaix', and stop banning their music, and words. You only awaken the giant by doing so. Wishing someone, "Merry Christmas" seems as offensive to me as wishing someone, "Happy Valentine's Day" in a few months time.

What's next? 'Memorial Day' will require a new name, so as not to offend the anti-war groups? We cannot have, "Labor Day weekends" anymore? Clearly the anti-union groups find it offensive, or the anti-capitalists. Me? I hate Labor Day and why? Signifies the unofficial end of summer. Fall and winter offend me!

[mike p]

I don't think many older people or people of any age from certain parts of our country even give it a second thought when they say merry Christmas. Just ingrained in them. If someone chooses to be offended by that I just think they're being a small person. I have many jewish friends who always greet and depart with "shalom". Should I be offended? I think it's cool and have started greeting them with a shalom myself.

Malcolm gives good post. I believe, hope this is true.

Mike

"As I read this thread I get the feeling that people that have posted here that they say merry Christmas to poke someone in the eye so to speak are mostly tongue in cheek and commenting on our PC nature and not literal.

Of all the people I know personally, Christian and non Christian I can't think of one that would be offended by any greeting as long as it was pleasant and remotely sincere. Maybe I hang with a better class of people than I thought."

[djg]

Have been doing a little test at the store this week. Some people I have wished "have a great (never 'merry') Christmas" and others "have a great (never 'happy') holiday" to see if there would be any reaction one way or another. Today, finally, there was one to "holiday" ... a woman's response: "we'll have a Merry Christmas and we hope you do too." Not said totally angrily, but more of a slight scolding tone, or maybe it was disappointment in her voice.

I'm assuming some people to whom I've said "Christmas" and are not Christians have not been bothered, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm also assuming that some people to whom I've said "holiday" are convinced the corporate office has forbidden us from mentioning the religious nature of the season, which obviously isn't the case.

What do you forumites, as consumers, feel about the salutations one way or another? Not that I'll change; just curious. I'll probably continue to experiment because I like studying human nature in its natural habitat.

Oh, and ... Season's Greetings!

So why would she be annoyed or disappointed that you didn't use "merry" in particular? I understand that the specific greeting "merry Christmas" is extremely common in the US, and maybe other English-speaking countries, but what's the significance of "merry" rather than "happy" or "joyous" with regard to Christmas? It's not universal even in English -- and certainly doesn't seem to track French or German Christmas greetings.

I'm not Christian and don't much care. With friends I know to be Christian, I wish them a "merry Christmas" on or just before Christmas, but not the day after Thanksgiving or at random times during the commercial holiday marketing season. With strangers in a store, over a broader time period, I tend to return the greeting with something like "thank you, you too," independent of the question whether they give me a "MC" or "HH" greeting. With some bemusement when a clerk in a hijab is wishing me a Merry Christmas, but she means no harm and there's just no point getting into it.

I guess if you're asking how I feel about the extended secular (and quasi- and faux-religious) holiday, the truth is I don't care for it. I happily attend Christmas dinner with real friends who really are Catholic and really do celebrate Christmas (and, not incidentally, put on really good Italian-American Christmas dinners) and of course I wish them a "Merry Christmas" and I'm pretty sure I mean it. Every radio station and mall and post office covered with holiday kitsch for months on end? I don't care for it as a non-Christian -- kinda baffled that some Christians want this going on, although I understand that some do not, but that's not my business. I don't buy the notion that the USPS puts the Virgin & child on a postage stamp on the theory that high renaissance religious imagery is of sudden art-historical interest in December, but I can use another stamp. I don't get into harangues with store clerks -- not over the choice of greeting or whatever might or might not lie behind it -- because why?

[Pete Mckeon]

It is a time of giving and family festivities.:banana:



WIshing a Happy Holiday season, a Merry Christmas and a prosperous 2014 to ALL. Pete



I say say happy holidays and a merry Christmas ,



To all ...:)
Cheers

[slidey]

That's just it. Christmas is the most globally marketable holiday, and that is the primary contributing factor to its increasing popularity. Its not popular for anything to do with Christ, but because of the gift-giving angle. Take away the gift-giving (which is by no means unique to christmas), and there's not much more left for the markets to capitalise on.

Every radio station and mall and post office covered with holiday kitsch for months on end? I don't care for it as a non-Christian -- kinda baffled that some Christians want this going on,

For what its worth, I've no reindeer in this race. I'm a forgetful agnostic, who can't be bothered to care/remember exactly the day of the week, etc and so a vanilla "season's best" covers all bases for me. Keep doling it out all the way from mid-dec to mid-jan with absolutely no worries of what comes/goes in between.

Oh, and by the way saying 'Shalom' is not the same as 'Merry Christmas' i.e. no universal appeal. If one wishes to be truly global, and getting with the times etc then our best bet is learning Chinese.

Ni hao!

[Kirk007]

I'm with Climb and Wesley on this one.

Anyone, from Palin to the stranger on the street, that gets overly worked up over which greeting is used needs to think through those feelings. At my last firm one of the funniest and biggest disputes of the year was whether the end of year party was a Holiday Party, Christmas Party or Solistice Party, with each proponent dogmatically sticking to their guns, from email responses to greetings at the door. Silly, silly, silly.

But I also think anyone who would go out of their way to intentionally tweak someone else in a way that is disrespectful to that person's beliefs has as big or bigger problem. Freedom of religion, freedom of belief, freedom of expression allows no room for favorites; our Constitution states an ideal of respectful behaivour for all - this is not pc, its just good manners and kind conduct.

[1centaur]

Two questions:

1) If someone thinks the word "Christmas" is offensive in its utterance and wants to enforce "Happy Holidays" on others, is the person who intentionally says "Merry Christmas" to that person worse or better than the one who wants to alter society to her personal taste?

2) Do most people who declare what many see as PC to be just good manners actually believe PC exists?

[sjbraun]

[QUOTE=1centaur;1471989]Two questions:

1) If someone thinks the word "Christmas" is offensive in its utterance and wants to enforce "Happy Holidays" on others, is the person who intentionally says "Merry Christmas" to that person worse or better than the one who wants to alter society to her personal taste?

But that's where the whole "PC police" objection to Happy Holidays breaks down for me. If you think saying Happy Holidays implies a desire to alter society, you're not getting the fact that society is already altered. We're just not a primarily Christian nation anymore. I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that any particular person is a celebrator of Christmas. I prefer Happy Holidays because I think its a more respectful way of wishing someone well during this season of festivals.



-Steve

[Louis]

To tie these threads together in a neat red bow, I can't figure out why the so-called "big government haters" are often the same ones who want to use that very government to promote their religion, whether it be with Ten Commandments plaques or monuments in the courtroom and on the courthouse lawn, or prayers in government-funded or operated schools. Doesn't make sense to me.

Merry Christmas :)

[CunegoFan]

I'm an atheist. I use Festivus these days.

[Kirk007]

Two questions:

1) If someone thinks the word "Christmas" is offensive in its utterance and wants to enforce "Happy Holidays" on others, is the person who intentionally says "Merry Christmas" to that person worse or better than the one who wants to alter society to her personal taste?



They are one and the same, both equally self absorbed and narrow minded, both trying to alter someone else. To each his own per the Constitution.

We see this all the time in society and here on this forum with people feeling it their ___ given right to try and impose their beliefs and opinions on others.

ATMO, No one's opinion or belief is superior to anyone else's opinion and belief, within accepted mores as expressed in our laws, particularly those that outlaw certain behaivour as criminal etc,; that is a fundamental precept of our nation. Some opinions may be better informed, perhaps more accurate, but NOT BETTER in a "I, my beliefs, my jersey, my color, my steel or carbon or titanium frame, my body shape ad nausem is morally, ethically superior."

Too much judgement and too little tolerance has and continues to poison our society, and we all lapse into it. I'm intolerant of the intolerant.

[slidey]

Here's another one that makes no sense, per my standards. Its only a recent realisation, but it sure flummoxes me -

There is a specific position in the US House of Reps - Chaplain of the US House of Reps, and in a practice that has carried on from the days of yore when there was no mention of separation of church and state (first amendment of the US consitution), the Chaplain reads a prayer each day and signs off with 'Amen'.

I couldn't care less about the preliminary sooth saying as more often than not it has absolutely no bearing on the proceedings in the house, not that anything has any bearing on these morons. However signing off with 'Amen' is clearly speaking to Christianity and to me is a very blatant violation of government embracing the separation of church and state. I still don't understand it, and I've asked some of my more open-minded american friends, and they too haven't been able to theorise anything, ending up with a confused look and a shrug.

Doesn't make sense to me.

[Tony T]

http://www.coinnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Lincoln-Cent-In-God-We-Trust.jpg

[Tony T]

However signing off with 'Amen' is clearly speaking to Christianity

"The usage of Amen, meaning "so be it", as found in the early scriptures of the Bible is said to be of Hebrew origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen)"

[slidey]

http://www.coinnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Lincoln-Cent-In-God-We-Trust.jpg

Yeah, or this. The logic, or lack thereof beats me completely.

By the by, I came by a one cent coin from 1945 recently. :banana:

[Tony T]

Yeah, or this. The logic, or lack thereof beats me completely.

"The modern motto of the United States of America, as established in a 1956 law signed by President Dwight D Eisenhower, is In God We Trust."

See: History of 'In God We Trust' (http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx)

[slidey]

"The usage of Amen, meaning "so be it", as found in the early scriptures of the Bible is said to be of Hebrew origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen)"

Ok, I stand corrected on that but it doesn't really change the rest of the observation. Why not just sign off with 'Thank you' :confused:

[Climb01742]

1) If someone thinks the word "Christmas" is offensive in its utterance and wants to enforce "Happy Holidays" on others, is the person who intentionally says "Merry Christmas" to that person worse or better than the one who wants to alter society to her personal taste?

speaking for myself, i don't want to 'enforce' anything. nor do i think the use of any word(s) in this context are 'offensive'. you're using the language of the aggrieved. your subtext is showing.

i'm advocating for more sensitivity in public utterances. that's the extent of my point. if a wish spoken toward another human being for happiness in the season is truly about the_other_person, then respect for differences feels appropriate. but if that utterance is more about the speaker, and their worldview, and their beliefs, then carry on. but if it is, really, about the speaker, and not the listener -- why even say anything?

maybe this is also a product of where folks live or have lived. having spent half my life in new york city, diversity was a fact of life, and respect for differences sure made every day easier, more pleasant, and ultimately a richer life.

[Tony T]

I really hate it when strangers tell me to "Have a Nice Day", how do I get them to stop? ;)

[slidey]

Tell them to have a foul one, that should work ;)

I really hate it when strangers tell me to "Have a Nice Day", how do I get them to stop? ;)

[victoryfactory]

I really hate it when strangers tell me to "Have a Nice Day", how do I get them to stop? ;)

I tell them: "it's too late for me, save yourself"

As far as "happy holidays" goes, These people are just trying to be
kind and inclusive. Give them a break.
It's the "merry Christmas" as if that's the only correct greeting at
this time of year people that are insufferable. How
about a little tolerance? after all, you are celebrating a Pagan ritual that was
co-opted.
How about two separate holidays? One spiritual (Christmas) to
celebrate the birth of Jesus (in the spring) and one secular at the
winter solstice (Yuletide) for the gifts, trees in the house and eggnog?
I would celebrate both. (in my own way)
VF

ps: Yuletide gets Santa and his reindeer, Christmas gets Handels
Messiah and Mozarts Requiem

[Kirk007]

http://www.coinnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Lincoln-Cent-In-God-We-Trust.jpg

Yes, but whose God?

[#campyuserftw]

Yes, but whose God?

Merry Bomb to you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peHEOgiQgnI

:beer:

[Elefantino]

... there was no mention of separation of church and state (first amendment of the US consitution) ...
... signing off with 'Amen' is ... a very blatant violation of government embracing the separation of church and state.
As I used to tell reporters, there is no federally mandated separation of church and state. There is an establishment clause in the First Amendment, but not separation and therefore only use the phrase when referring to organizations whose name contains it.

It usually prompted a healthy argument, but the good thing about being the editor is that I always won.

[victoryfactory]

Show me a country with an official state religion and I'll show you
a problem.
The establishment clause is the single most precious gift that the
framers of our constitution gave us.
Without it, we would constantly be fighting the tyrany of whichever
religious group is the strongest or most numerous.

Thank God for the establishment clause!

VF

[djg]

Here's another one that makes no sense, per my standards. Its only a recent realisation, but it sure flummoxes me -

There is a specific position in the US House of Reps - Chaplain of the US House of Reps, and in a practice that has carried on from the days of yore when there was no mention of separation of church and state (first amendment of the US consitution), the Chaplain reads a prayer each day and signs off with 'Amen'.

I couldn't care less about the preliminary sooth saying as more often than not it has absolutely no bearing on the proceedings in the house, not that anything has any bearing on these morons. However signing off with 'Amen' is clearly speaking to Christianity and to me is a very blatant violation of government embracing the separation of church and state. I still don't understand it, and I've asked some of my more open-minded american friends, and they too haven't been able to theorise anything, ending up with a confused look and a shrug.

The days of yore was a rather short period of time -- the US Constitution was adopted in the fall of 1787 but didn't go into effect until 1789. The Bill of Rights was adopted by the first Congress, in 1789, and had been a way to get the anti-federalists to buy into the new constitution. I'm no sort of authority on this period, but I reckon that the position of a chaplin and some sort of "ecumenical" prayer was generally acceptable to the various branches of Christianity (mostly protestant) present, along with deists and others in the room.

I'm not sure why we have this still -- as somebody who works in Washington I find it hard to picture anything very holy going on in the sausage factory -- but I suspect that it's the sort of thing that's much harder to eliminate than it is to install. Not my thing, but it probably ought to be way down on (or just off) the list of projects for the new office of internal consistency affairs to pursue.

And amen is not specifically Christian -- it's a common and very old point of emphasis at the end of Hebrew prayers, not that the postscript makes the prayers at all Jewish, much less Shinto or anything else.

[93legendti]

The days of yore was a rather short period of time -- the US Constitution was adopted in the fall of 1787 but didn't go into effect until 1789. The Bill of Rights was adopted by the first Congress, in 1789, and had been a way to get the anti-federalists to buy into the new constitution. I'm no sort of authority on this period, but I reckon that the position of a chaplin and some sort of "ecumenical" prayer was generally acceptable to the various branches of Christianity (mostly protestant) present, along with deists and others in the room.

I'm not sure why we have this still -- as somebody who works in Washington I find it hard to picture anything very holy going on in the sausage factory -- but I suspect that it's the sort of thing that's much harder to eliminate than it is to install. Not my thing, but it probably ought to be way down on (or just off) the list of projects for the new office of internal consistency affairs to pursue.

And amen is not specifically Christian -- it's a common and very old point of emphasis at the end of Hebrew prayers, not that the postscript makes the prayers at all Jewish, much less Shinto or anything else.

Yes, Amen, אמן, dates back to the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament"), is still used at the end of every Jewish prayer and has been adopted by Christians and even Muslims.

[beeatnik]

A little clarification or context for the numbers below. Worldwide there are 2.18 billion Christians and 1.2 of those Christians are Roman Catholic. So the majority of Christians worldwide are Roman Catholic. That is not the case in the US where the majority of Christians are Protestant and Evangelical (white Republicans, maybe?). Also, worldwide, the majority of Christians are non-white. There is some irony there when the true ethnicity of the historical Jesus is considered.

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/

On topic...

So a few weeks ago I wished a neighbor "Happy Holidays." It may have been my first holiday greeting of the season and it was definitely reflexive. Well, she stopped, looked at me intently and said, "oh, we're not Christians so we don't celebrate Christmas." It was a strange interaction but I didn't think much of it considering that this woman used to be one of the leaders of that cult which claimed to have cloned the first human being. Well, a few days later I was going through some old files and found a Christmas card from the same person. She sent it in 2010. Hahaha, I guess she's gone beyond believing in a false messiah who claimed he was an alien Jesus (the leader of her cult) to nihilism (no ethos!). That or she's, um, PC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raëlism

There's about 1.2 billion people who believe a man was pegged to a cross, for his politically incorrect, Christian beliefs, and the 1.2 billion come in much, much more than the white, male, Republican flavor. Some 43% of Canada is Catholic.

There are 78.2 million Catholics in American, 24% of the US population and, "Catholics have made up a significant portion of the United States since the end of the 19th century, when Irish Catholics set sail for America to escape famine, according to the National Humanities Center. Around that same time, more than a quarter of Italy's population left its native land to find work in America, the "vast majority" of whom were Catholic, according to the American Immigration Law Foundation. Today, Catholics make up about a quarter of the U.S. population."

Italy - 88% Catholic
Ireland - 84%
America - 24%
Canada - 43%
Spain - 92%
Philippines - 81%
Argentina - 92%
Columbia - 88%
Costa Rica - 85%
Croatia - 87%
Dominican Republic - 88%
Guatemala - 81%
Luxembourg - 85%
Switzerland - 39%
Venezuela - 87%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/numbers-catholics-america/story?id=18619248

[slidey]

Yes, I agree. There are a lot more things to wrangle about at DC, but this is the one thing that really bothered me mainly because its a blatant double-standard. Although admittedly, it is perhaps very naive of me to expect any standard other than double standard from the snakes at DC.

...I suspect that it's the sort of thing that's much harder to eliminate than it is to install. Not my thing, but it probably ought to be way down on (or just off) the list of projects for the new office of internal consistency affairs to pursue.

[slidey]

You're right about there being no mention of the 'separation' clause in the text of the First Amendment. However, in Everson v Board of Education (1947) the SC used Thomas Jefferson's correspondence which stated 'separation of church and state' to establish a ruling, hence heralding in a demarcation between encroachment of state via church (or any other religious abode), and vice versa. This seems to me like a federally mandated decision for observing separation of church and state, or is it not? I understand that the text of the First Amendment is understandably short-sighted (being framed in a Christian dominated world in 1787) and the SC was able to expand its interpretation to some degree citing the intent of TJ a good 160 years later. I'll grant that there definitely is ambiguity as to where those lines actually cross over, but that's mainly due to the lack of initiative in updating the constitution to bear resemblance today.

In any case, my issue is that signing off a prayer with a word used by a miniscule set of the religions, and hence associating itself with a few religions is by no means an inclusive approach or tolerant approach. There might be debate as to the blurriness of the lines of separation of church and state, but there is no doubt that signing off with 'Amen' is in the court of the church (and synagogues, etc) and hence must be separate from state, and the House of Reps is definitely a body of the state, thereby making this an unlawful practice.

By the by, all my knowledge above is espoused from Wikipedia so I could very well be amiss on a few things since I'm forming bridges based on these facts.

As I used to tell reporters, there is no federally mandated separation of church and state. There is an establishment clause in the First Amendment, but not separation and therefore only use the phrase when referring to organizations whose name contains it.

It usually prompted a healthy argument, but the good thing about being the editor is that I always won.

[Kirk007]

Driving down the road today I say a printed sign in a front yard along the highway. I only got the larger text, which was: "It's ok to say Merry Christmas"

I guess we now all have permission so its all good!

:)

[slidey]

Amen, brother! ;)

Driving down the road today I say a printed sign in a front yard along the highway. I only got the larger text, which was: "It's ok to say Merry Christmas"

I guess we now all have permission so its all good!

:)

[CunegoFan]

Driving down the road today I say a printed sign in a front yard along the highway. I only got the larger text, which was: "It's ok to say Merry Christmas"


I bet that guy would not last two minutes in the feats of strength.

[oldpotatoe]

Yes, Amen, אמן, dates back to the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament"), is still used at the end of every Jewish prayer and has been adopted by Christians and even Muslims.

AMEN brother.....

'Sold that $12,000 Moots with EPS..can I get a Halleluja and Amen Brother???

(Actual conversation among bike shop nerds, owners and wrenches at Vecchio's).

[Louis]

'Sold that $12,000 Moots with EPS..can I get a Halleluja and Amen Brother???

(Actual conversation among bike shop nerds, owners and wrenches at Vecchio's).

Sounds like they were worshiping Mammon - I'd say that's definitely part of the Christmas (or Holiday, take your pick) Spirit.

[Rueda Tropical]

If I don't know a person's personal beliefs vis-a-vis religion i'll wish them Happy Holidays, if I know they are Christians I'll say Merry Christmas. Jewish Happy Hanukkah (if its still Hanukah), etc., just as a matter of courtesy. If someone gives me sh*t for wishing them well they can F off.

The rosey cheeked fat blue-eyed Santa Claus that has become the main image of Christmas in the US has zero to do with the historical middle-eastern St. Nicolas that Santa is supposedly derived from. Evergreen trees and mistletoe? Pagan carry overs. Should we be banning Santa and mistletoe and enforcing Nativity scenes as the only proper celebration of Christ's birthday? Should we insist on an Aramaic middle-eastern looking Jesus?

Live and let live . Let everyone enjoy their holiday, Christmas, Festivus or whatever the way they like and use whatever holiday greetings, imagery or whatever they like - secular or religious. Good cheer and all that.

[oldpotatoe]

If I don't know a person's personal beliefs vis-a-vis religion i'll wish them Happy Holidays, if I know they are Christians I'll say Merry Christmas. Jewish Happy Hanukkah (if its still Hanukah), etc., just as a matter of courtesy. If someone gives me sh*t for wishing them well they can F off.

The rosey cheeked fat blue-eyed Santa Claus that has become the main image of Christmas in the US has zero to do with the historical middle-eastern St. Nicolas that Santa is supposedly derived from. Evergreen trees and mistletoe? Pagan carry overs. Should we be banning Santa and mistletoe and enforcing Nativity scenes as the only proper celebration of Christ's birthday? Should we insist on an Aramaic middle-eastern looking Jesus?

Live and let live . Let everyone enjoy their holiday, Christmas, Festivus or whatever the way they like and use whatever holiday greetings, imagery or whatever they like - secular or religious. Good cheer and all that.

Shinto santa? Lived in Japan for 3 years..Christmas is HUGE.

[fiamme red]

Shinto santa? Lived in Japan for 3 years..Christmas is HUGE.Merî Kurisumasu! :)

[93legendti]

middle-eastern" looking???:rolleyes:

[Rueda Tropical]

middle-eastern" looking???:rolleyes:

He was the 4th century bishop of Myra (in modern day Turkey)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Saint_Nicholas.jpg

A forensic reconstruction of Saint Nicolas' face from his skull:

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/media/images/s/st-nicholas-face-1.jpg

Doesn't look much like the Northern European fat guy who is married to Mrs. Claus, has an army of elves and flies around with reindeer. Nothing wrong with the current red-suited white Santa, Shinto Santa, the Tex-Mex Poncho Claus or Black Santa. But it's pretty funny to hear a Fox news host telling us that the "real" Santa is white.

[fiamme red]

True story: During her Senate confirmation hearing, Elena Kagan was questioned as to where she was on Christmas Day 2009. The senator was leading to a line of questioning concerning the Underwear Bomber plot but Ms. Kagan was not in tune with the question and puzzled as to the seeming randomness of the question. Her forthright and unguarded reply to the senator's question was "I was probably sitting in a Chinese restaurant with all the other Jews". Her reply brought the house down.I grew up in an observant Jewish family, and I had never heard of this tradition of eating Chinese food on Christmas Eve until I was in college.

Interestingly, Swedes seem to have a tradition of celebrating Christmas Eve by watching Disney cartoons: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2009/12/nordic_quack.html.

[paulh]

And they're not Jewish.