Are disk brakes for Road bikes inevitable?

[parco]

What do you think ? Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

[biker72]

Disc brakes are relatively heavy. I don't see the weight weenies buying into them.

I think they would work for me.

[crossjunkee]

Disc brakes, for me, are a pain to deal with.

[christian]

For enthusiast road bikes? Yeah, I'm afraid so.

[54ny77]

dunno, don't care.

i'm a luddite dual pivot caliper prepper, ready for gruppo armageddon.

(but i'd enjoy giving a disc road bike a whirl just for yucks.)

[Elefantino]

Inevitable, as in already here and many more on the way? Yes.

Probably not on UCI's good list until 2016.

[MattTuck]

If you mean will they take a significant part of the market of new bikes? yes, they are inevitable. This is because bike companies continually need to find 'new' features to drive upgrade cycles. Cyclocross is a prime example. You need a special bike to do cyclocross (atleast that is what the bike companies want you to believe, so they can sell you a new bike), disk brakes, need a new bike with the appropriate mounts... yay! new upgrade cycle! It's like how HDTV manufacturers hyped 3D systems as the catalyst for a new upgrade cycle for TV purchases. Guess what, the content wasn't there for 3D, nor did people like the experience of watching 3D at home. It didn't drive the cycle they had hoped.... perhaps disc brakes will be the same way. Still, most TVs you see today in BestBuy are 3D

Another thing that is inevitable: The moment, in 8-10 years, when bike companies introduce rim brakes as a 'new feature' based on lightness, cycling heritage and commonsense.

[ultraman6970]

I dont see disc to take over professional peloton unless they are forced by the sponsor...

plaf! flat... come on! come on! quick that they are getting away!! pleaaassseee,,,,!!

[David Kirk]

I think the choice of disc brakes is inevitable..........but I don't think all, or even all that many, bikes will end up with them once we get past the honeymoon part of the relationship with them.

For some people they will answer a burning question......for others a question that was never asked.

Vive la differance.

dave

[crossjunkee]

Another thing that is inevitable: The moment, in 8-10 years, when bike companies introduce rim brakes as a 'new feature' based on lightness, cycling heritage and commonsense.


I see this happening with 26" wheels too.

[Lewis Moon]

To directly answer the question: no. There is really no good reasons for discs on roadbikes, except maybe for carbon wheels in the rain. Rim brakes work perfectly well, are lighter, easier to build a frame around, easier/less expensive to service, have more cross compatibility....

Do I think bicycle companies will try to sell them as the new standard? Yes.

[Ahneida Ride]

I

Another thing that is inevitable: The moment, in 8-10 years, when bike companies introduce rim brakes as a 'new feature' based on lightness, cycling heritage and commonsense.

:banana:


Ha ... !!!! or friction shifting !

[Scooper]

They're just another solution looking for a problem IMO.

[David Tollefson]

With the prevalence of "all-road" and gravel bikes, I see a move toward disc brakes. It does make sense there. Commuters, definitely. Guess what -- most of those bikes will rarely, if ever, see off-pavement use. So they're gonna switch to lighter, smoother, narrower tires. Voila! Disc brakes on road bikes. But I don't really think we'll see a plethora of disc brake equipped high-end road race bikes flooding the market.

[sitzmark]

Depends on the definition of "THE standard".

As a percentage of high-end performance/touring bikes the numbers might grow sharply over the next few years. As a share of the total road bike market - don't see the major share going to disc soon.

The advantages are there - stopping power (especially in wet) and longer hoop life. I'd prefer to replace discs than rims (especially expensive carbon rims). The downside is complexity, weight, and at least for now cost.

[dana_e]

They look ugly on a road bike, dual-pivots rock

[josephr]

inevitable? obvious...is it marketing or an industry making a change to sell more bikes? possibly? Are they better? certainly. The weight weenies might not be the early adopters, and I'm not really impressed by the early offerings, but the safety and performance factors will certainly sway most people eventually. It took a long time for the mtn bike market to switch, I think the road bike market will move faster though --- not as quickly as companies drop 26ers though.
Joe

[oldpotatoe]

What do you think ? Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

Not required

Yes, unfortunately. Heavy, complicated, expensive ,requiring big changes to frame and fork.

Like paddle shifters on that WRX that goes to the grocery.

For that weekend warrior for his 25 mile ride on Sunday, along with his carbon whizbangery, to win coffee shop points, yep, his rig will have 'em, dum as it is.

Wet, commute, tour, MTB, cross.......for the dry day enthusiast, not IMHO.

[sg8357]

Disc brakes are needed to make the world safe for carbon clinchers.


The Specialized Rutabaga Gran-Fondue bike of 2015,
will have Ultegra Electric, 50mm carbon clinchers with hydro
discs. Specialized will pitch it to the LBS as a service traffic builder.

[David Kirk]

I think it's important to remember that not all users use their bikes in the same terrain and in the same way that others do and that just because rim brakes work perfectly for one person that doesn't mean they work perfectly for others. It all depends on how and where the bike is being used.

If you live and ride on rolling terrain and don't weight 250 lbs then rim brakes, even with carbon rims will be the lightest and probably best choice. If on the other hand you aren't light and you ride in all weather with real descents then disc may be the best choice. I often will do 10 mile descents that are a handful in the dry and doing them in the rain is downright dangerous with rim brakes..........but with discs it's a non-issue.

Not all of us ride the same and imposing our choices on others is just as silly as they imposing theirs on us.

It reminds me a bit of my stepfather who has logged huge mileage in his long life. He's a great guy and super smart but when he sees one of my bikes and it has something new (carbon wheels, disc brakes, electronic shifting, clipless pedals.....etc) he looks at the stuff and frowns and always says the same thing - "I'm not a racer, I don't need that stuff". OK, alrighty then. Well of course I wasn't trying to sell him any but he dislikes even my having it. It offends him in some way and thinks that the stuff he likes will go away. When Jim says "No one needs that stuff" it really means "I don't need that stuff".

Well Jim's been riding for 40 years now and in that time nothing he's liked has become unavailable and he's learned to like some of the new stuff.

Embrace change and choice - you'll get them even if you don't.

dave

[corky]

This thread makes me squeal.....

[MadRocketSci]

i don't know about you guys from Boulder, but i think they'd be useful descending the upper part of Flagstaff in the rain towards town....

[bfd]

[QUOTE=sg8357;1466793]Disc brakes are needed to make the world safe for carbon clinchers.


[QUOTE]


Yup, I have a friend who insist that carbon rims with rim brakes are a no-no and won't ride them out of fear that the braking isn't up to par! However, he is open to carbon rims with disc brakes and says that's the "safest" way to ride them. Good Luck! :eek::butt::confused:

[Mark McM]

To directly answer the question: no. There is really no good reasons for discs on roadbikes, except maybe for carbon wheels in the rain.

But don't disc brakes negate many of the benefits of carbon rims? The advantages of carbon rims is that they can be lighter, and built to more aerodynamic shapes. Disc brakes are heavier and have a greater aerodynamic cost than rim brakes, so carbon rims with disc brake seems like a zero sum game.

[mcteague]

Yes. Don't really want the more complicated maintenance myself but I expect them to be more and more common. Once racing approves, mandates,them it will be "Katie bar the door". All new road bikes, at least from the big guys, will have them. Custom will be, well, custom, order whatever you want.

I understand the usefulness on some bikes and totally agree with Dave Kirk's post on this. However, those buying off the rack may not have much choice in the years to come, disk will be all there is IMO. It's new so it has to be better. Right?

Tim

[CunegoFan]

It reminds me a bit of my stepfather who has logged huge mileage in his long life. He's a great guy and super smart but when he sees one of my bikes and it has something new (carbon wheels, disc brakes, electronic shifting, clipless pedals.....etc) he looks at the stuff and frowns and always says the same thing - "I'm not a racer, I don't need that stuff". OK, alrighty then. Well of course I wasn't trying to sell him any but he dislikes even my having it. It offends him in some way and thinks that the stuff he likes will go away. When Jim says "No one needs that stuff" it really means "I don't need that stuff".


I didn't know you were related to Grant Petersen.

:banana:

[CunegoFan]

They're just another solution looking for a problem IMO.

Correction: A solution for a seldomly encountered problem. This, of course, means that everyone needs them for that one time a year they do encounter the problem. It is like people who drive all year around with AWD, paying for the decrease in MPG, but absolutely need to have it because they drive to work once a year in a bit of snow that everyone else who does not have AWD does not seem to have much of a problem with.

[miguel]

dave kirk -
what brand and model dick brakes are you using

[JimmyTango]

But don't disc brakes negate many of the benefits of carbon rims? The advantages of carbon rims is that they can be lighter, and built to more aerodynamic shapes. Disc brakes are heavier and have a greater aerodynamic cost than rim brakes, so carbon rims with disc brake seems like a zero sum game.

I wonder if the rims (carbon or alloy) will get to a place when the weight gained by the disc system is neutralized by the weight saved in being able to redesign the rims... no need to wory about heat (carbon) and no need to build a tall, thick brake surface (both alloy and carbon)?

I would love to ride hydro disc on the road -- braking performance in the wet and dirty would be great for the winter and my CX.

Also, with all the riding in the mud I do in the winter I have to replace my rims almost every other year thanks to brake track wear from all the grit. I would probably actually consider building up a higher performance wheelset with carbon rims if I had discs (replacing rotors is not so expensive compared to rims), but for now the fear of wearing out super expensive carbon rims on my 75mi/ week of steep or dirty descending (150+ mi/week total in the Oakland hills and fire trails) means I stick with more "disposable" alloy rims.

[vav]

dave kirk -
what brand and model disk brakes are you using

Fixed :banana:

[David Kirk]

dave kirk -
what brand and model dick brakes are you using


I'm not really into the dick brakes - not that there's anything wrong with that.

I've used hayes wet brakes and currently use the BB7 SL on my cross bike. They work 'fine' but could be better.



Dave

[David Kirk]

I didn't know you were related to Grant Petersen.

:banana:

Now that you say this............I've never seen my step father and grant Peterson in the same place at the same time. So it must be that........

Hmmm?

dave

[Puget Pounder]

dave kirk -
what brand and model dick brakes are you using

Dick brakes seem like a pretty good contraceptive. Now THAT is a solution to a problem.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

No.

[oldpotatoe]

i don't know about you guys from Boulder, but i think they'd be useful descending the upper part of Flagstaff in the rain towards town....

Yep, so do everything required for these for that day, once or twice a year, brilliant.

[Schmed]

Ha! Seems like I'm in the minority.

I bought a cross bike mostly because of disc brakes. I'll use it as my road bike as well.

But... I mostly mountain bike. As such, I've come to hate rim brakes - the adjustments, squealing, grinding, crappy modulation, etc. Disc brakes are a godsend for mountain biking.

On the road, though, most of our rides are very long climbs and very long descents (front range of Colorado). Coming down Lookout Mountain certainly doesn't require disc brakes, but man! They sure do have GREAT feel. Coming down Independence Pass into Aspen, Vail Pass, Ward, Jamestown, Squaw Pass.... I really like having the power/modulation of discs.

Necessary, no. Worth the extra weight? For me, they are! :bike:

[MadRocketSci]

Yep, so do everything required for these for that day, once or twice a year, brilliant.

i'd like to clarify this excoriating :) response...do you mean that it only rains once or twice a year, or that you only ride it once or twice a year? I don't even live there but i definitely ride it more than that....

regardless, see Dave Kirk's multiple responses....

[scooter]

dave kirk -
what brand and model dick brakes are you using

Only one brand, Specialized. They own the trademark on the term “dick brakes” and they will be aggressively enforcing it.

[miguel]

I'm not really into the dick brakes - not that there's anything wrong with that.


WOOPS
haha LOL

TYPO~!

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/stash-1-50ebe3c551ecf.gif

[54ny77]

Will the Borg Bike (tm) be wireless-enabled?

http://ralphlosey.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/borg_enemy.png?w=327&h=354

[FlashUNC]

Will the Borg Bike (tm) be wireless-enabled?

http://ralphlosey.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/borg_enemy.png?w=327&h=354

Hugh certainly hopes so.

http://stophittingyourbrother.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/hugh-drone.jpg

[gdw]

"i don't know about you guys from Boulder, but i think they'd be useful descending the upper part of Flagstaff in the rain towards town...."

I have nothing against disks but quality brakes with Salmon pads are more than adequate for upper Flagstaff, Magnolia, 4 Mile, Sunshine Canyon, etc on wet days even with an extra 20+ pounds of gear on the bike.

[palincss]

What do you think ? Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

No. While they may be superior to other types of brakes in certain applications, their overall superiority to rim brakes in general and in all situations isn't as great as is the superiority of derailleur drivetrains over all other types, and even in the face of that unequivocal inferiority you still find internal gear hubs, single speeds and even fixed gears out there.

[Grant McLean]

Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

The only foregone conclusion is there will be no more standards.
Market fragmentation, product specialization, and technological innovation;
change for the sake of change.

-g

[saab2000]

I just got an Independent Fabrication Gravel Royale with disc brakes and I will admit that I'm intrigued by them after a couple rides. I'm using cable actuated TRP Spyre brakes and they feel a bit mushy on the initial brake squeeze but they do seem to modulate well and seem to be much more powerful than the TRP cantilevers I had on my Redline cross bike, using the same road tires. So that's a constant.

I can lock up the rear wheel and I can adjust the adjust the lockup during the skid. This is pretty well controlled modulation.

The brake feel is, as mentioned, a bit mushy but I plan to eventually replace the cable housing with compressionless housing, which should improve feel and performance.

The aesthetic is not that glamorous, but for the project of a 'gravel road bike' I think they're a net positive. Time will tell. I haven't yet ridden it in tough conditions.

For true road bikes I'm much less enthusiastic.

It's not a great picture but you get the idea.

[parco]

As things get more complicated I find myself riding my fixed gear more and more.

[Mark McM]

I wonder if the rims (carbon or alloy) will get to a place when the weight gained by the disc system is neutralized by the weight saved in being able to redesign the rims... no need to wory about heat (carbon) and no need to build a tall, thick brake surface (both alloy and carbon)?

Possible gains here are minimal or non-existent. The extra weight for the extra thickness of a brake track is a few tens of grams at most. Rims shape isn't currently limited by brake tracks, so there is nothing to be gained here.

When disc brakes were first being introduced on MTBs, there were claims that removing the brake track would result in weight savings in the rims. There are now many disc brake only MTB rims being made, and they don't weigh any less than rim brake rims.

(On a parallel subject, there were plenty of claims made about performance advantages of tubeless road tires, including supposed lower weight, lower rolling resistance, and better traction. None of these has been realized, and tubeless tires have no lower weight, rolling resistance or traction that tube type tires.)

[rellis]

TRP has recalled those brakes, FYI.http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/eek.gif

[saab2000]

TRP has recalled those brakes, FYI.http://forums.thepaceline.net/images/smilies/eek.gif

Yes, but the recall doesn't affect functionality for now. I have been in touch with them and they will be replacing them. But for the riding I currently do with them they are safe.

[JimmyTango]

Possible gains here are minimal or non-existent. The extra weight for the extra thickness of a brake track is a few tens of grams at most. Rims shape isn't currently limited by brake tracks, so there is nothing to be gained here.

When disc brakes were first being introduced on MTBs, there were claims that removing the brake track would result in weight savings in the rims. There are now many disc brake only MTB rims being made, and they don't weigh any less than rim brake rims.

(On a parallel subject, there were plenty of claims made about performance advantages of tubeless road tires, including supposed lower weight, lower rolling resistance, and better traction. None of these has been realized, and tubeless tires have no lower weight, rolling resistance or traction that tube type tires.)

But the heat and wear issues remain a positive, no?

[bfd]

:cool::butt:Possible gains here are minimal or non-existent. The extra weight for the extra thickness of a brake track is a few tens of grams at most. Rims shape isn't currently limited by brake tracks, so there is nothing to be gained here.

When disc brakes were first being introduced on MTBs, there were claims that removing the brake track would result in weight savings in the rims. There are now many disc brake only MTB rims being made, and they don't weigh any less than rim brake rims.

(On a parallel subject, there were plenty of claims made about performance advantages of tubeless road tires, including supposed lower weight, lower rolling resistance, and better traction. None of these has been realized, and tubeless tires have no lower weight, rolling resistance or traction that tube type tires.)

Supposedly, one "advantage" of disc brakes is that it will allow and the use of *carbon* rims with no need for a brake track. That means it might be possible to make a clincher carbon rim that weighs close to that of a tubular carbon rim, e.g., current clincher carbon rims like Enve 3.4 weigh in around 450-460g; in contrast an Enve 3.4 tubular carbon rim is listed between 377-398g. If you use disc brakes, then the clincher carbon with a thinner brake track should drop closer to the tubular carbon rim. True? If so, how much lighter?

As for tubeless, the two advantages I've heard is 1) it allows you to run lower psi, e.g., 700x23 tires can be run at 80-85psi - thus providing more comfort (but you can do the same running a 700x25 tire) and 2) with the magic sealant, you get less flats! My two friends who have tubeless say both advantages are true and believe it justify the price difference over a standard wheelset. Good Luck! :eek::cool::butt:

[Ahneida Ride]

Wait a second ..

Dual Pivot brakes are disk brakes with rubber pads and really large disks. :banana:

[yashcha]

Ended up having Tony at Tonic make me a road disc bike last year. Not even sure what prompted me to go disc, but pretty happy I did.

Most of the riding I do here in guangzhou is on these enormous bike paths that connect different parts of the city. I use these things to get to the main training grounds, which is a ten mile semi closed loop where the chinese national team, and the hong kong national teams train. Sometimes I get to sit in on their train, but other times the team van comes right next to me yells at me through a megaphone.

After several thousand miles of riding this bike, I like riding discs, but rim brakes for most applications is totally sufficient.

Where these disc brakes really shined were on long steep, sketchy descents. On our trip to the mountain ranges last month, we had a thirty minute descent of just steep switch back after switchback. I thought the brakes performed really well, no tiredness in the hands, and just all around smoothness.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/yashcha/57cbfbcb786f74b8d84cd2ac2b5779a6_zpsaec888e1.jpg

Pros: super smooth and predictable braking. No issues in the rain. I like how they look. You can use h plus son archetype rims and keep the brake track looking new.

Cons: Heavy, adds about a pound and a half to my bike, making it a slightly porky 19 pounds. You definitely feel the extra weight on long climbs. Wheel changes may be very difficult to do since it takes time to adjust the pads. My brakes have already been recalled, scared about rotor getting too hot.

[saab2000]

I'm definitely curious to see if a sponsored team puts some riders on disc bikes for a few races, even lower profile riders in lower profile races. That's what Campagnolo did with their prototype electronic system and I think Shimano did some of this with their early STI stuff in about 1990.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we saw some in a few races in the spring.

[cfox]

When Ultegra Di2 came out, a lot of people were speculating that the tidal wave had hit the beach, meaning, every new bike under $3,000 would have e-shifting and consumers would be lining up out the door. This has not happened. I live in a high-income, bike happy place and I have yet to see a Di2 bike on the road other than my own. All the big shops in the area have a token Di2 bike on a rack, but 99% of the inventory is still mechanical*. Now everyone is saying "wait until Di2 105 comes out!!". Now a lot of guys think road discs will take over; I predict a result similar to Di2.



*Signature Cycles in Greenwich doesn't count. Greenwich is 30 miles away (might as well be on another planet). Signature builds up more Di2 bike than any other shop in the world, I believe.

[Frankwurst]

I've been riding centerpulls, calipers or cantis since the early 70's and never once in my riding have I felt I needed more braking power and that includes touring, racing and just plain fooking around in any condition you could imagine. I love bicycles because they are simple and I'll always keep it that way, but that's just me. Oh, and I still dig friction shifting. :beer:

[saab2000]

I've been riding centerpulls, calipers or cantis since the early 70's and never once in my riding have I felt I needed more braking power and that includes touring, racing and just plain fooking around in any condition you could imagine. I love bicycles because they are simple and I'll always keep it that way, but that's just me. Oh, and I still dig friction shifting. :beer:

One rarely feels the need for better anything. Until you have it. Then there's no going back. I never knew how crappy my old Modolos were until I got Campagnolo Delta brakes. And I never knew how mediocre they were (though they are a giant step up from Modolos, and frankly totally adequate) until I got my first Campagnolo Record dual pivots. They were revolutionary to me and from that there has been no going back.

Discs have revolutionized mountain biking. They may or may not do the same thing with road but I wouldn't be totally surprised if they do.

[Schmed]

One rarely feels the need for better anything. Until you have it. Then there's no going back. I never knew how crappy my old Modolos were until I got Campagnolo Delta brakes. And I never knew how mediocre they were (though they are a giant step up from Modolos, and frankly totally adequate) until I got my first Campagnolo Record dual pivots. They were revolutionary to me and from that there has been no going back.

Discs have revolutionized mountain biking. They may or may not do the same thing with road but I wouldn't be totally surprised if they do.

Perfect summary!

[thirdgenbird]

One rarely feels the need for better anything. Until you have it. Then there's no going back.

I don't know. I often enjoy going back after being coddled in modern technology.

32 spokes, lugged steel, single pivot brakes, quill stems, manual windows, manual steering, no ABS, stack stereos, bookshelf speakers, vinyl records. I enjoy these thing more than their modern counterparts.

[sitzmark]

I've been riding centerpulls, calipers or cantis since the early 70's and never once in my riding have I felt I needed more braking power and that includes touring, racing and just plain fooking around in any condition you could imagine. I love bicycles because they are simple and I'll always keep it that way, but that's just me. Oh, and I still dig friction shifting. :beer:

There was a time when bikes WERE simple and didn't have all that fancy friction shifting and stuff. ;) Just sayin' ... it's all relative.

[HillDancer]

Here are a few disc brake innovations I'm enjoying. UD carbon, hookless rims, 40mm wide, 32mm deep, only 430 grams.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-olhFv5QWXes/Uhee26SOhcI/AAAAAAAAA2c/IzEK8dNthzw/s400/P1020394.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kLU2tQ9yWfk/UkxkYYS76uI/AAAAAAAAA38/9c7ybwoGsNI/s400/P1020429.JPG

These allow comfortable low air pressure, secure tubeless applications, great sidewall support, increased durability, and all at reasonable weight. Tubeless is where-it's-at for high volume low pressure tires. With tubes installed, niggling punctures require removing the tire often to patch tubes. Tubeless with sealant means no problem.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EsyB3Wpt8p0/Um1PUu5hkvI/AAAAAAAAA5s/9J_3TE1R2So/s400/P1020454.JPG


Carbon rotors reduce part of the disc brake weight penalty, and they don't get hot.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-AWf-N-IXtLs/UprMdAdVZiI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/qvZLnW_9VVU/s400/P1020500.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-VV2wBhJZDWI/UqkwzAQ4NaI/AAAAAAAAA8w/b4vUriXf8Bg/s400/P1020527.JPG


Carbon brake pads purported to have elevated brake performance are in production. I've had a couple carbon pad models, unfortunately the early versions didn't fit correctly, so I can't share first hand experience. They have trick ultra light titanium backing plates. I think pad compound development will change a lot of attitudes. Organic pads work well enough on the latest carbon rotor construction, no noise and great feel are some of the benefits.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eMVWeOQHXLA/UqkuH8jWRwI/AAAAAAAAA8M/SvYvKE5alMc/s288/P1020479.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5kXWw5u7mtQ/Uqku_HAlvFI/AAAAAAAAA8k/hTCG45dGL4I/s288/P1020526.JPGhttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wOZuCF3le60/UqkuW-lWjSI/AAAAAAAAA8U/7rSj41iZr3k/s288/P1020496.JPG

[sjbraun]

So if I understand this correctly, disc brakes require reinforcing the fork and rear triangle to handle the stresses applied to these areas through brake forces.
How does this affect the ride? Are disc capable forks less complaint?

[oldpotatoe]

I've been riding centerpulls, calipers or cantis since the early 70's and never once in my riding have I felt I needed more braking power and that includes touring, racing and just plain fooking around in any condition you could imagine. I love bicycles because they are simple and I'll always keep it that way, but that's just me. Oh, and I still dig friction shifting. :beer:

Geeez Lewezzz..I use Deltas on my Merckx and I stop just fine, even in group rides. Every once in a while some lizard will show up with a 14 pound whizbangery, we give him hell and he is as off the back as when he rode his 19 pound bike..I'm sure he'll show up with wet discs also, and still go off the back.

BUT most everybody goes 'oooo, ahhhh', and does the 'lift the bike up' test at the coffee shop...and then he goes OTB....

[vav]

Here. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8217/8381887374_436c5a675e_b.jpg

[David Kirk]

Geeez Lewezzz..I use Deltas on my Merckx and I stop just fine, even in group rides. Every once in a while some lizard will show up with a 14 pound whizbangery, we give him hell and he is as off the back as when he rode his 19 pound bike..I'm sure he'll show up with wet discs also, and still go off the back.

BUT most everybody goes 'oooo, ahhhh', and does the 'lift the bike up' test at the coffee shop...and then he goes OTB....

It's the same way in the auto world - show up at any track day or autocross and there will be some guy who shows up for his first ever event in a new Vette, a GT3, or a GTR and everyone will stand around it in awe but once the racing begins some guy in a Civic will beat the supercars by a big margin. And then typically we never see the supercar, or its owner, ever again.

As always it's the pilot, rider or driver, that makes the difference and not whether the car has a huge V8 or the bike has this brake or that.

All that said - take the fast guy out of his Civic and put him in the GTR and then you might see what the car can really do.

dave

[Mark McM]

:cool::butt:

Supposedly, one "advantage" of disc brakes is that it will allow and the use of *carbon* rims with no need for a brake track. That means it might be possible to make a clincher carbon rim that weighs close to that of a tubular carbon rim, e.g., current clincher carbon rims like Enve 3.4 weigh in around 450-460g; in contrast an Enve 3.4 tubular carbon rim is listed between 377-398g. If you use disc brakes, then the clincher carbon with a thinner brake track should drop closer to the tubular carbon rim. True? If so, how much lighter?

Clincher rims will always be heavier than tubular rims (even if there is no brake track), because clincher rims need side walls that are stiff and strong enough to contain the tire's pneumatic pressure. This is why aluminum clincher rims are 50 - 80 grams heavier than otherwise similar aluminum tubular rims. For carbon rims, the weight difference is apt to be greater, because the unidirectional strength properties of carbon fibers doesn't lend itself as well to the shape and strength demands of clincher rim sidewalls. So no, using disc brakes will not make clincher carbon rims much lighter.



As for tubeless, the two advantages I've heard is 1) it allows you to run lower psi, e.g., 700x23 tires can be run at 80-85psi - thus providing more comfort (but you can do the same running a 700x25 tire) and 2) with the magic sealant, you get less flats! My two friends who have tubeless say both advantages are true and believe it justify the price difference over a standard wheelset. Good Luck! :eek::cool::butt:

These sealants were originally developed for use in tubes, before tubeless road tires even existed. These sealants are also used in tubular tires, which still use tubes inside. So sealants are not an advantage exclusive to tubeless tires.

[Mark McM]

But the heat and wear issues remain a positive, no?

The jury is still out on heat management on disc brakes. There seems to be a demand that road bike discs be smaller/lighter than MTB discs, but the motorsports world has shown us that discs for road vehicles need to be larger than for off-road vehicles, due to the greater heat issues (due to higher speeds).

Disc brakes certainly reduce wear on rims. However, if we are still discussing carbon rims, there is still a net loss for carbon rims - carbon rims are very expensive compared to aluminum rims, so the initial cost of a carbon rim may be the same as the cost of an aluminum rim plus several replacements.

[gdw]

It's pretty amusing to see BB7s paired with carbon rotors and titanium/carbon brake pads. Kinda like pimping out a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon for street use.:banana:

[Mark McM]

Carbon rotors reduce part of the disc brake weight penalty, and they don't get hot.

I have to call BS on this one. All braking converts motion energy into heat - all brakes get hot. Since carbon fiber isn't as good at heat dissipation as metal, carbon discs are likely to get hotter than metal.

Carbon brake pads purported to have elevated brake performance are in production. I've had a couple carbon pad models, unfortunately the early versions didn't fit correctly, so I can't share first hand experience. They have trick ultra light titanium backing plates. I think pad compound development will change a lot of attitudes. Organic pads work well enough on the latest carbon rotor construction, no noise and great feel are some of the benefits.

Improved rotor and pads are swell, but the problems encountered in disc overheating has been failure of the calipers - either the fluid boiling, or the seals failing.

[FlashUNC]

If only there was a larger disc we could use to brake over the rotors that are out there.

Something, say, the size of a wheel...

[Elefantino]

I'm definitely curious to see if a sponsored team puts some riders on disc bikes for a few races, even lower profile riders in lower profile races. That's what Campagnolo did with their prototype electronic system and I think Shimano did some of this with their early STI stuff in about 1990.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if we saw some in a few races in the spring.
Only if UCI allows it on a "limited test" basis, which means a handful of riders only.

Shimano is pushing hard for it by 2015, but it looks like it may not be until the 2015 worlds, at the earliest.

[Schmed]

If only there was a larger disc we could use to brake over the rotors that are out there.

Something, say, the size of a wheel...

Like.... the rim? Good one!

[MadRocketSci]

Geeez Lewezzz..I use Deltas on my Merckx and I stop just fine, even in group rides. Every once in a while some lizard will show up with a 14 pound whizbangery, we give him hell and he is as off the back as when he rode his 19 pound bike..I'm sure he'll show up with wet discs also, and still go off the back.

BUT most everybody goes 'oooo, ahhhh', and does the 'lift the bike up' test at the coffee shop...and then he goes OTB....

I doubt anyone wants discs to go faster. Regular brakes might stop fine for some people, but discs stop better in the wet. Might not matter to you, but might to someone else. I spend a lot of my day at work thinking about mass and safety margins, and everyone should be able to decide what combination they want for themselves. This is a risky sport. Isn't freedom of choice a good thing? Are we afraid that discs will push calipers out of the market for good, or just wanting to call anyone willing to trade some mass for extra wet margin a pussy?

[oldpotatoe]

I doubt anyone wants discs to go faster. Regular brakes might stop fine for some people, but discs stop better in the wet. Might not matter to you, but might to someone else. I spend a lot of my day at work thinking about mass and safety margins, and everyone should be able to decide what combination they want for themselves. This is a risky sport. Isn't freedom of choice a good thing? Are we afraid that discs will push calipers out of the market for good, or just wanting to call anyone willing to trade some mass for extra wet margin a pussy?

'Better' and 'worth it' are big words. Marketing is driving this just like 6 speed transmissions, paddle shifters and big automatic spoilers for that car to get the kids at school.

'Shifts better', 'never take my hands off the steering wheel', 'the automatic spoiler on Chrysler's Crossfire works wonders'......

Not the point. Some things that have morphed from MTBs are a good idea. Discs for commuters, cross, that sort of thing is fine and dandy. If ya want fenders, go ahead and use them even if you hardly ever ride in the rain. Front rack? Go ahead even if it's for style points...

BUT you mention 'choice', marketeers, in the name of $, design and then produce all sorts of stuff that that many don't want or need, reducing choice.

How many 8 or 9s groups or bikes are out there, that aren't Costco specials(and a lot of those are 10s)?

[miguel]

Here. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ed84cec8bc870f3247a45ef1c9fc413f/tumblr_mtpc2m8U6z1qavji0o1_1280.jpg

ftfm

[HillDancer]

I have to call BS...

Mark McM, please share your experience with Silicon Carbide, Ceramic, Carbon Fiber rotors on a bicycle.

There is less thermal conductivity in the SiCCC (http://kettlecycles.com/work/siccc-rotor-information/) material. This means the entire rotor doesn’t get hot. This means your rotor doesn’t turn into a heat source. This can better protect your caliper and fluid.

There is superior emissivity with the SiCCC rotor. The SiCCC rotor emits the heat to the air faster than steel. This means the SiCCC rotor cools faster.

[mcteague]

Only if UCI allows it on a "limited test" basis, which means a handful of riders only.

Shimano is pushing hard for it by 2015, but it looks like it may not be until the 2015 worlds, at the earliest.

I read somewhere the UCI may be thinking an all or nothing approach. In a pack they are concerned some riders would be able to stop much faster than others, especially in the wet. I suppose that could further increase the chances for mass pile ups.

Tim

[MadRocketSci]

Mark McM, please share your experience with Silicon Carbide, Ceramic, Carbon Fiber rotors on a bicycle.

There is less thermal conductivity in the SiCCC (http://kettlecycles.com/work/siccc-rotor-information/) material. This means the entire rotor doesn’t get hot. This means your rotor doesn’t turn into a heat source. This can better protect your caliper and fluid.

There is superior emissivity with the SiCCC rotor. The SiCCC rotor emits the heat to the air faster than steel. This means the SiCCC rotor cools faster.

Strange...silicon carbide and graphite have phenomenal thermal conductivities. Thermal conductivity has nothing to do with whether something gets hot...just how well the heat conducts in the material, removes hot spots, etc. Heat capacity is the thing that determines how hot something gets given a certain heat input.

[crossjunkee]

I read somewhere the UCI may be thinking an all or nothing approach. In a pack they are concerned some riders would be able to stop much faster than others, especially in the wet. I suppose that could further increase the chances for mass pile ups.

Tim

Spot on

[oldpotatoe]

I read somewhere the UCI may be thinking an all or nothing approach. In a pack they are concerned some riders would be able to stop much faster than others, especially in the wet. I suppose that could further increase the chances for mass pile ups.

Tim

Ya mean more than they already have?

Or somebody gets a neutral wheel, and the rubbing of the rotor drives those in the peloton so batty, they stop, knock him down and beat him with a flatted tubular.

[umami]

For those of you claiming that disc brakes are more difficult to set up, I'm curious if you're referring to hydraulic or mechanical? My experience with setting up either has been fairly painless, but in particular mechanical disc brakes are practically digital when it comes to setup and maintenance. Line 'em up, adjust clearance until they don't drag, and go. Pop old pads out, pop new ones in.

If I could, I'd put disc brakes on every bike I own. Not only for their stopping power (which is always as good or better than rim brakes), but for their wet-weather performance and simplicity. 'Round these rainy parts, I've had 50-foot runout before my rim brakes warmed up enough to dry out and start slowing me down. Disc brakes simply don't have that issue.

Neither would I miss the spine shivering sound of gritty rim brakes grinding away my wheelset, or the impossible to remove grey sludge that coats my tires after every ride. Nor would I lament never again fussing with pad toe-in, or forgetting to flip the cable releases on my calipers after changing a flat.

Squeal is at parity--the two just sound different. Disc brake squeal is usually louder. Usually.

What suggests to me disc brakes' inevitability is that they are pretty much set-and-forget, reliable, consistent, and they separate rims from abrasive wear. Too many novice (and even seasoned) riders have poorly setup brakes, with pads riding off the rim, improper toe-in, etc, resulting in lousy braking. Disc brakes solve most of these issues for most people.

Sure, rim brakes are lighter, but so is a single-speed drivetrain. People ride both for different reasons, but one clearly dominates the mainstream marketplace.

[oldpotatoe]

For those of you claiming that disc brakes are more difficult to set up, I'm curious if you're referring to hydraulic or mechanical? My experience with setting up either has been fairly painless, but in particular mechanical disc brakes are practically digital when it comes to setup and maintenance. Line 'em up, adjust clearance until they don't drag, and go. Pop old pads out, pop new ones in.

If I could, I'd put disc brakes on every bike I own. Not only for their stopping power (which is always as good or better than rim brakes), but for their wet-weather performance and simplicity. 'Round these rainy parts, I've had 50-foot runout before my rim brakes warmed up enough to dry out and start slowing me down. Disc brakes simply don't have that issue.

Neither would I miss the spine shivering sound of gritty rim brakes grinding away my wheelset, or the impossible to remove grey sludge that coats my tires after every ride. Nor would I lament never again fussing with pad toe-in, or forgetting to flip the cable releases on my calipers after changing a flat.

Squeal is at parity--the two just sound different. Disc brake squeal is usually louder. Usually.

What suggests to me disc brakes' inevitability is that they are pretty much set-and-forget, reliable, consistent, and they separate rims from abrasive wear. Too many novice (and even seasoned) riders have poorly setup brakes, with pads riding off the rim, improper toe-in, etc, resulting in lousy braking. Disc brakes solve most of these issues for most people.

Sure, rim brakes are lighter, but so is a single-speed drivetrain. People ride both for different reasons, but one clearly dominates the mainstream marketplace.

Well except,
-Every disc caliper uses a different pad
-most wet discs use a unique to that caliper or at least to that brand, bleed kit
-some even go so far as to require a specific brake fluid/mineral spirit
-Most decent bike shops have drawers full of unique to that brake, brake lines, fittings, blah, blah

As opposed to $9.99 brake pads that fit into 99.5% of the calipers/Vbrakes/canti brakes made...

Bike shops make good money bleeding, servicing, changing pads, then bleeding...wet disc brakes..I wouldn't exactly say they are exactly painless. Not hard but can be difficult.

Ride in WA state?-highly recommended. Ride in Colorado? Not worth the $, IMHO.

[umami]

One would hope that a few standards would emerge for disc brakes beyond the rotor and caliper mounting points. But that hasn't happened with automobiles, so while I'm not holding my breath, disc brake pads last a long time and are very easy to replace. Stocking the handful of different brands/models out there is only marginally worse than having to support 9/10/11 speed drivetrains for three or more component brands.

[ultraman6970]

Disc is not a bad option but darn, the bike willl become a car at that point.

Pro peloton will ride whatever they give them, in real life probably electronic and disk calipers will become the break point between a high end bike and a super high end one.

Now home mechanics will have more parts to break and people will send their bikes more often to the lbs, as for simplicity IMO is not a good idea, extra parts to deal with.

[David Kirk]

I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

[cromo900]

Does a CX bike or touring-ish bike count? If so, add me to the list. Many years on a Redline Conquest with BB7 and about a year on a Salsa Vaya with BB5 (promptly upgraded to BB7). But I live in Seattle, so kind of ideal disc brake territory.

[JimmyTango]

I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

I had a disc cross bike for a bit that I rode more often on the road than in the dirt. I didn't find the braking to be any beter than my caliper braked road-bike in the dry, but I also didn't find them to be in any way offensive (as it seems many here find discs)... worked great and were plenty easy to service (bb7). I wish the bike had worked out better because I think I'll really miss them this winter in the rain and mud.

[rnhood]

I have ridden a Specialized SL4 Roubaix with hydraulic disc (its a standard Specialized offering). This was a demo event in Asheville. I spent two hours riding the bike around and on the Blue Ridge Parkway, then another two on a Tarmac with rim hydraulic brakes. There was a couple good descents on the route. This was in dry weather.

Braking was simply superb (of course its superb on my own Tarmac with Dura Ace also). But the disc brake (hydraulic) provides very smooth and linear modulation, along with little less "squeezing" pressure required. My hand would not tire on longer descents with the disc system.

So this is what I mainly noticed; very smooth and linear modulation, and slightly less hand pressure for a given braking amount. Having said this, changing pads on my DA equipped Tarmac can give different modulation profiles. For instance, cork pads are very smooth....but they take a bit more hand pressure for the same modulation.

My opinion is that disc brakes provide another choice and choice is good. They will not render calibers obsolete. Just another choice. In some venues the disc will make sense, in others perhaps not.

[MadRocketSci]

I have a Salsa Vaya Ti with bb7's which is not technically a road bike. But i do have an imagination...

[zap]

I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

Tandem road count?

As far as I'm concerned, discs on a tandem is best unless you live where it's flat. Road single? Certainly not where I live the D.C. Metro area. Alps in the rain....discs would probably be really nice to have.

[gdw]

Does a Fargo count? It was setup for gravel grinders and only used on the dirt and paved roads around Boulder....

[umami]

I have ridden and own two "road" bikes with disc brakes. They're not race bikes if that's what you're talking about, but they have mixed use tires, drop bars, and see asphalt most of the time.


I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

[davidb]

Bicycle Retailer cited in a recent article the big hold up is the lac of thru axle forks. The industry does not like to talk about the past lawsuits. Over wheels and QR liability issues. Once carbon forks with some type of thru axles are readily available more than half of all OEM will make the switch to disc. Will we see 135mm. rear wheel spacing. I think so as cross bicycles are already. Do we need it. As mentioned previously our industry dives on the idea of new stuff is better. Me I think a compact, 50/34 to an 12-28 cassette with good shifters and derailleurs in 8 speed. Wider alloy rims and 25c tires. Sub $900.00 would be better to have more people enter and stay in sport.

[rnhood]

Looks like Sram needs to go back to the drawing board. I recommend waiting for Shimano if you're interested in disc and/or hydraulic brakes.

http://www.sram.com/news-articles/sram-road-hydraulic-brake-recall-stop-use-immediately

[Ahneida Ride]

I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

2.) not me ... sorry have not tried em.

but I can see the utility if you ride in wet conditions and have long
steep twisty descents to navigate.

I used to ride up the Okemo Mtn road in Vt. It's 4 miles straight up.
That also means 4 miles straight down. I'd have to stop half way to let
my rims cool off. They were too hot to even touch.
This a perfect application for disks.

Hot rims = blown tube ..... not a good idea on a steep descent.

[Ahneida Ride]

Ok I give up ..

What is a thru axle fork ?

[Bostic]

I have 6000 miles on my Volagi Liscio since I got it in May of 2012. I've used it on the hardest double centuries in California. No issues on the long descents in California or Nevada. No issues descending 28% grades in San Francisco in the pouring rain. The BB7's with metallic pads and HSX 160 front 140 rear rotors make an awful squeal then quiet down after a few seconds. It weighs about 2 pounds heavier than my other carbon bike. It does not descend as fast as my other bikes, the rotors are not rubbing the BB7's.

I was an early adopter, the frame is 130mm and it appears the industry has settled on 135mm. I can live with that as I am content with the wheel set I have.

I'd like to try the TRP's but they don't appear to be a mature product yet, Spyre or HY/RD. I like a triple crankset so Sram won't be a solution. Now that Shimano has a revised CX77 I might try them out.

http://imageshack.us/a/img9/530/3ns0.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img543/7747/73zn.jpg

[phcollard]

What do you think ? Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

No. I bet you can still find the good ole caliper in twenty years. Just like full mechanical groupsets. Heck you can still buy new downtube shifters these days.

By the time discs and electronic groups and Strava brain implants are a standard we will all be in a wheelchair so no worries.

[oldpotatoe]

Looks like Sram needs to go back to the drawing board. I recommend waiting for Shimano if you're interested in disc and/or hydraulic brakes.

http://www.sram.com/news-articles/sram-road-hydraulic-brake-recall-stop-use-immediately

oopps.

[David Kirk]

oopps.

oopps part II -

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/12/bikes-and-tech/trek-recalls-madone-bikes-over-front-brake-failures_311097

dave

[miguel]

oh, hey, maybe this is a good place to cross post my classified ad

serotta csi with disc tabs added by eric estlund of winter cycles

f/f/hs/fenders and original bits for sale. just search "serotta by winter" in classifieds.

i used it with avid bb7s. worked well enough.

[Schmed]

Just got back from a ride, and tried to determine the value of the disc brakes on my CX bike:

- 1 finger braking is easy - enough to skid at will :)
- a bit of squeal with the BB7s
- no rubbing of rotors

The penalty, of course, is weight addition. On a cross bike used for training rides, I really don't care about the extra weight. Heck - I do most of my riding on roads with knobby tires. Should make me a stronger rider, right?

Curious - there was a post earlier about road-racing (cars). I've done a fair amount of road (auto) racing, and I'd think that other car-racer types would jump on the disc bandwagon like myself. Better brakes makes a faster race car!

[CunegoFan]

Recently Shimano had a disc recall, TRP had a disc recall, and now SRAM has a disc recall. I think I will wait until these guys figure out what they are doing. I don't need to use my money to beta test their products.

[palincss]

It's the same way in the auto world - show up at any track day or autocross and there will be some guy who shows up for his first ever event in a new Vette, a GT3, or a GTR and everyone will stand around it in awe but once the racing begins some guy in a Civic will beat the supercars by a big margin. And then typically we never see the supercar, or its owner, ever again.

As always it's the pilot, rider or driver, that makes the difference and not whether the car has a huge V8 or the bike has this brake or that.


How much of that is due to handicaps? Back in the 1970s my brother-in-law was a drag racer. Among his cars was a Plymouth Road Runner with a 440 6-pack, an absolute brute of a car and one of the hottest of the era. But by far his most successful drag racer was a 1972 Plymouth Cricket, 1500cc engine and dual Stromberg carb. That car had so much of a handicap it would be all the way down the drag strip before a car like the Road Runner ever got the green light.

I bought that Cricket from him, and ran the wheels off of it commuting to grad school, from the mid-Hudson Valley to Long Island.

[tigoat]

Hey yashcha that is one hot looking road bike with disc brakes. Is it steel frame? Thanks!

[tigoat]

I have a sincere question -

Who here has ridden a road bike with discs? I'll start the list - add to it if you have.

Dave




1) D.Kirk

2) Yours truly

Started riding a custom CX bike with disc bikes a while back on the road and has been riding a road bike with disc brakes from the first day since the release of ENVE road disc fork. I had 4 custom road bikes with rim brakes before and slowly replaced them all with disc brakes. It was an expensive process but certainly worthy. Don't think I will go back to rim brakes again. Built a set of ENVE 45 rims with DT 240s MTB hubs a couple of years ago and to this day those rims still look new after several thousand miles. Disc brakes on the road are just awesome!

[yashcha]

Hey yashcha that is one hot looking road bike with disc brakes. Is it steel frame? Thanks!

Thank you!

If I could afford it I would have loved a ti version, like yours, but it was almost a $2K difference! The frame is made of steel tubes from Columbus, and True Temper. I have a Seven Axiom SL which is 4 pounds lighter, but I end up riding the Tonic disc bike for 90% of the rides.

I am using a set of Non Icetech rotors now. I think I will end up upgrading to the new RT99 Freeza Icetech rotors once they are readily available.

Tony at Tonic was great to work with. This was the first road disc bike he has made and there were small design challenges, 135mm rear, rotor clearance...all worked out at the end.

And yes, for those who asked, it will safely get you to your coffee shop.http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f331/yashcha/24d593143f651c8280150a6bfbd83db5_zpsdf82f301.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Tandem road count?

As far as I'm concerned, discs on a tandem is best unless you live where it's flat. Road single? Certainly not where I live the D.C. Metro area. Alps in the rain....discs would probably be really nice to have.

But not wet discs I assume. I think with 300 pounds plus, heat buildup would be an 'issue'.

[zap]

Correct, mechanical on our travel tandem.

Stock AVID BB7 offered worse braking than canti or dual pivot on our other older tandem. Stock Avid discs/pads also could not handle the heat, even on small hills (we do reach 50mph pretty quickly and then hard stop to say 10) outside D.C.

We now run ICE disc 203 front and rear with EBC Gold pads. Much better. There are reports that some tandem users melted the al core of ICE discs. I suspect some are using the rear disc as a drag brake (:no:) but others that melted the core apparently have good descending skills. We did not have a problem with our ICE disc after a 10+ mile descent in France last year. I would say our descending on tandem is average but I do know how to alternate brakes, etc.

I'm now seeing reports of cracked Wound Up disc forks…..tandem model. Have to check ours……..

If it were not for the concern of inner tube blowouts due to heat, we would stick with rim brakes. Wet conditions is another story. I find the performance of rim brakes (dry conditions) to be better, it's lighter, easier when traveling and more importantly, rim brakes are more aero.

But after two blowouts resulting in one crash, safety on the tandem is more important (why I state disc is best for tandems) than speed, etc.

[Mark McM]

Ok I give up ..

What is a thru axle fork ?

This had been discussed across the hall:

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/okay-whats-thru-axle-28121.html

Basically, it means that instead fitting the axle in slots in the fork tips, the fork tip wraps completely around the axle (i.e. the axle fits through a hole in the fork tip). In order to remove a wheel, the axle has to be untightened and pulled completely out of one side of the fork before the wheel can be pulled out.

Due to the slower wheel changes, I wonder how the racing peleton will react to this design.

[Mark McM]

Mark McM, please share your experience with Silicon Carbide, Ceramic, Carbon Fiber rotors on a bicycle.

There is less thermal conductivity in the SiCCC (http://kettlecycles.com/work/siccc-rotor-information/) material. This means the entire rotor doesn’t get hot. This means your rotor doesn’t turn into a heat source. This can better protect your caliper and fluid.

This paragraph makes no sense at all. The heat source is the friction between the rotor and the pad. If there is no thermal conductivity in the rotor, than the heat is conducted into the pad (and caliper instead). Using a non-conductive rotor creates a worse situation for the caliper, not better.

I think you forgot the golden rule of the internet - just because it's written on the internet, it doesn't mean its true.

[HillDancer]

I'm using the rotors, they don't get hot, they work, so do the calipers and pad, which don't overheat either. My experience is rooted in reality.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nGvH0y6CPHw/UqyB6ReyndI/AAAAAAAAA9s/Uzu1Vh4m0Zc/s400/P1020531.JPG

[yashcha]

I'm using the rotors, they don't get hot, they work, so do the calipers and pad, which don't overheat either. My experience is rooted in reality.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nGvH0y6CPHw/UqyB6ReyndI/AAAAAAAAA9s/Uzu1Vh4m0Zc/s400/P1020531.JPG

Where did you buy these?

[tigoat]

I'm using the rotors, they don't get hot, they work, so do the calipers and pad, which don't overheat either. My experience is rooted in reality.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-nGvH0y6CPHw/UqyB6ReyndI/AAAAAAAAA9s/Uzu1Vh4m0Zc/s400/P1020531.JPG

Heat will be created from fiction no matter what so that is a fact. Without fiction, you will have no braking. However, these composite rotors seem to work perhaps due to the fact that they do not hold heat very well (low thermal conductivity) so brake fades can be reduced. I suppose you also need some compatible composite pads as well to work with these rotors? It is unclear to me how heat will be dissipated through the system though. When heat is generated it must go somewhere to normalize, so it seems like the main mode of heat dissipation of these disc brakes is through convection, as conduction obviously does not work well here with these composite parts.

[Black Dog]

Heat will be created from fiction no matter what so that is a fact. Without fiction, you will have no braking. However, these composite rotors seem to work perhaps due to the fact that they do not hold heat very well (low thermal conductivity) so brake fades can be reduced. I suppose you also need some compatible composite pads as well to work with these rotors? It is unclear to me how heat will be dissipated through the system though. When heat is generated it must go somewhere to normalize, so it seems like the main mode of heat dissipation of these disc brakes is through convection, as conduction obviously does not work well here with these composite parts.

Perhaps the low thermal conductivity of the rotors keeps the heat at the surface of the rotor and thus allows the heat to dissipate into the surrounding air. But this is speculation.

[Threshold]

As a former shop mechanic, disc brakes are overkill for road. They are a royal PITA!!! They never stay true, you have to bleed em and fiddle with getting bubbles out and truing them. They are great for mud, etc. where the performance overcomes the PITA factor, but for road they are stupid and the performance doesn't match the PITA maintenance factor. They are just a solution for the industry who can't engineer a fail safe way around carbon rims and clinchers blowing up, so they are going to come up with all this marketing hype to sell to the boomers so they can produce 260 watts instead of 250... I see cycling tourists who way 200lbs. on ENVE SES clinchers and I think to myself what unethical shop sold you those to kill yourself going down a mountain while you ride your brakes?

In my opinion, if you are training on carbon clinchers you are a 'FRED' boomer or triathlete or your getting paid. Elite/PRO riders train on aluminum clinchers. If you are going to spend crazy money on carbon wheels go all out and get custom tubulars and if you have to have clinchers because of rolling resistance, for race day get Shimano or HED deep clinchers.

[bluesea]

I read somewhere the UCI may be thinking an all or nothing approach. In a pack they are concerned some riders would be able to stop much faster than others, especially in the wet. I suppose that could further increase the chances for mass pile ups.

Tim


To a certain extent this effect will also influence most riders who train in groups or pacelines. There you have it, the beginnings of a massive, wholesale changeover.

Disc technology will improve, and I look forward to a disc-ed commuter bike, but woe for the simplicity of the modern caliper. :violins:

[HillDancer]

Where did you buy these?
The online store http://www.buykettlecycles.com/
...I suppose you also need some compatible composite pads as well to work with these rotors?...
Most organic pad compounds (except Shimano) will provide great modulation. I'm using Avid's updated organic pad and SwissStop green pad, there are performance differences between the those two compounds. Other users have reported favorable performance modulation wise from EBC green pads. Full metallic and semi-metallic pads are not compatible with the Kettle rotor. I've not been able to try the new carbon pads as I mentioned already. As I stated before, the latest carbon pad is purported to provide high levels of raw power.

Bedding pad & carbon rotor is somewhat different than with a steel rotor. Optimal bed-in requires mild, light, even braking in the beginning to transfer a uniform film of friction material from pad to rotor. The process can require a longer bed-in period than steel as well, depending on the pad compound. Much of a disc brake's brake power is the result of microscopic bonds that form and break many times over at the rotor surface. This applies to all disc rotors whether bicycles, cars, motorcycles, planes etc., hence the reason performance increases with proper bed-in as a transfer layer of pad material adheres to the rotor. The carbon rotor is less forgiving to pad smearing and uneven pad transfer films.

Technical info can be found on Kettle's web pages, two examples: http://kettlecycles.com/work/siccc-rotor-information/ and http://kettlecycles.com/work/frequently-asked-questions/

[Louis]

The online store http://www.buykettlecycles.com/

Wow! 203 mm disc = 8"

A bit more and you'll have an LP record!

[yashcha]

One very small advantage of my disc brake setup.

Removing a wheel that has a 28mm tire mounted on it is not a problem. On my sram red setup, anything above 26mm I have to deflate the tire to pass by the brake pads, even with the QR totally open.

Also if you are using the same hub and rotor combo, you can swap out wheels which have different rim widths without any adjustment.

So not all gloom and dreariness in the road disc brake world :)

*This is not meant to be taken seriously, and of course will not make your ftp go from 250 to 260.

[oldpotatoe]

As a former shop mechanic, disc brakes are overkill for road. They are a royal PITA!!! They never stay true, you have to bleed em and fiddle with getting bubbles out and truing them. They are great for mud, etc. where the performance overcomes the PITA factor, but for road they are stupid and the performance doesn't match the PITA maintenance factor. They are just a solution for the industry who can't engineer a fail safe way around carbon rims and clinchers blowing up, so they are going to come up with all this marketing hype to sell to the boomers so they can produce 260 watts instead of 250... I see cycling tourists who way 200lbs. on ENVE SES clinchers and I think to myself what unethical shop sold you those to kill yourself going down a mountain while you ride your brakes?

In my opinion, if you are training on carbon clinchers you are a 'FRED' boomer or triathlete or your getting paid. Elite/PRO riders train on aluminum clinchers. If you are going to spend crazy money on carbon wheels go all out and get custom tubulars and if you have to have clinchers because of rolling resistance, for race day get Shimano or HED deep clinchers.

Reality, what a concept. Well said and welcome.

[redir]

As a former shop mechanic, disc brakes are overkill for road. They are a royal PITA!!! They never stay true, you have to bleed em and fiddle with getting bubbles out and truing them. They are great for mud, etc. where the performance overcomes the PITA factor, but for road they are stupid and the performance doesn't match the PITA maintenance factor. They are just a solution for the industry who can't engineer a fail safe way around carbon rims and clinchers blowing up, so they are going to come up with all this marketing hype to sell to the boomers so they can produce 260 watts instead of 250... I see cycling tourists who way 200lbs. on ENVE SES clinchers and I think to myself what unethical shop sold you those to kill yourself going down a mountain while you ride your brakes?

In my opinion, if you are training on carbon clinchers you are a 'FRED' boomer or triathlete or your getting paid. Elite/PRO riders train on aluminum clinchers. If you are going to spend crazy money on carbon wheels go all out and get custom tubulars and if you have to have clinchers because of rolling resistance, for race day get Shimano or HED deep clinchers.

I agree with some of what you say but I have cheap Shimano disk brakes on my MTB and in the 3 years I've owned the bike I had to have the brakes tuned once. Other than changing pads, which seem to die quickly, they are flawless and easy to deal with, and these are cheap ones. It's definitely a PIA dealing with them when you need to but that's not often.

[Schmed]

I agree with some of what you say but I have cheap Shimano disk brakes on my MTB and in the 3 years I've owned the bike I had to have the brakes tuned once. Other than changing pads, which seem to die quickly, they are flawless and easy to deal with, and these are cheap ones. It's definitely a PIA dealing with them when you need to but that's not often.

I have a set of Hope hydraulics on one MTB - never touched them. Rub free, quiet, and superb performance and feel.

Had a set of BB7s on a SS 29er, and they required regular and often tweaking to keep them from rubbing and squeaking. Braking was excellent, but they drove me nuts. I gladly gave them away and switched to hydraulics.

For road / cross bikes, I'm hoping the TRP cable discs are better than the BB7s were.

There's no doubt (is there?) that discs provide superior stopping power, but are the worth the hassles (weight, possible rubbing)? They are for me.

Ride what you want, says me. :)

[Uncle Jam's Army]

In my opinion, if you are training on carbon clinchers you are a 'FRED' boomer or triathlete or your getting paid. Elite/PRO riders train on aluminum clinchers. If you are going to spend crazy money on carbon wheels go all out and get custom tubulars and if you have to have clinchers because of rolling resistance, for race day get Shimano or HED deep clinchers.

You don't know what you're talking about, and I'm not sure why you insist on throwing around the pejorative term "FRED" in your posts. I sold my ENVE SES 6.7 clinchers to a buddy of mine who trains on them every day, and he has won every race there is to win in Southern California. For the last six months, I've been training on a set of Reynolds Assault clinchers I picked up new for $700. The rear has only needed one quarter turn of the spoke wrench on one spoke since then to stay true. Though I have a pair of tubular carbon wheels that I save for racing, I have also raced a few crits on the Assaults and they are a great all-around training/racing wheelset. I like aluminum clinchers and if I was looking at a ride in the mountains with a bunch of climbing and descending, I'd rather use aluminum clinchers than carbon clinchers on that ride.

[David Kirk]

...................

Ride what you want, says me. :)

I couldn't agree more. Why 'we' seem to want to impose our equipment decisions on others I will never know.

dave

[zap]

Reality, what a concept. Well said and welcome.

say what..?

T..hold said use to use ShimaNO or HED deep clinchers.

Campy deep clinchers are good no.

[Charles M]

I agree with some of what you say but I have cheap Shimano disk brakes on my MTB and in the 3 years I've owned the bike I had to have the brakes tuned once. Other than changing pads, which seem to die quickly, they are flawless and easy to deal with, and these are cheap ones. It's definitely a PIA dealing with them when you need to but that's not often.


I'm running SRAM hydro for rim and disc and set up and use was easy and there's been zero PITA factor as well... No issues with either mountainbike either...

I'm not a good mechanic... Mediocre at best, which makes me wonder if someone is constantly struggling with discs was qualified to set them properly to start with. (I do not wonder if Potato is qualified).



The only think I've noted is Way better braking on carbon wheels (tubular and Clincher).

And that's wet or dry.

And with carb tubulars I don't notice the hub weight either... I do note that no rim brake / pad combination is any place near as good.

[redir]

I'm running SRAM hydro for rim and disc and set up and use was easy and there's been zero PITA factor as well... No issues with either mountainbike either...

I'm not a good mechanic... Mediocre at best, which makes me wonder if someone is constantly struggling with discs was qualified to set them properly to start with. (I do not wonder if Potato is qualified).



The only think I've noted is Way better braking on carbon wheels (tubular and Clincher).

And that's wet or dry.

And with carb tubulars I don't notice the hub weight either... I do note that no rim brake / pad combination is any place near as good.

Right, so they just keep getting better and better. Of course this is why (well and price too) I always wait out the new high tech stuff till the kinks get ironed out. Mine are indeed a PIA to bleed and all that, fortunately a friend works at the local shop. But like I said once they are done they are done.

[mcteague]

I couldn't agree more. Why 'we' seem to want to impose our equipment decisions on others I will never know.

dave

Agreed, but, it is fun to snicker at some choices. Love to see people with aero bars and deep carbon rims but billowing clothes and huge spare tire. Just sayin...:D

Tim

[oldpotatoe]

I couldn't agree more. Why 'we' seem to want to impose our equipment decisions on others I will never know.

dave

Opinions are like.....well, ya know. I don't care what others throw their $ at, all I know is I won't. BUT the industry forces their version of cycling reality on the cycling public everyday, imposing 'their' equipment choices on that same public.

Some of it makes sense, lots does not.

[Louis]

I couldn't agree more. Why 'we' seem to want to impose our equipment decisions on others I will never know.

Certainly individuals do this, but they are hardly the only ones. Companies, manufacturers, entire marketing departments do the same thing as they try to sell their latest and greatest offerings to the world.

[Schmed]

Agreed, but, it is fun to snicker at some choices. Love to see people with aero bars and deep carbon rims but billowing clothes and huge spare tire. Just sayin...:D

Tim

My buddy rides a carbon Merckx with Performance hiking/biking shoes, baggy shorts, and gloves he bought at a gas station.

We, of course, harass him relentlessly, until he drops us. :eek:

All in good fun.

[mcteague]

My buddy rides a carbon Merckx with Performance hiking/biking shoes, baggy shorts, and gloves he bought at a gas station.

We, of course, harass him relentlessly, until he drops us. :eek:

All in good fun.

Genetics, the ultimate upgrade!

Tim

[FlashUNC]

At the end of the day, more choice is going to be a good thing in the industry.

But the concern that a lot of folks seem to touch on is the notion -- whether it's discs or electronic shifting, what have you -- that their preferred way of doing things is going to be made obsolete by the manufacturers, regardless of whether the "new thing" is any better at all.

I don't much see the point of discs myself, but I won't begrudge anyone using them. Heck, I was wrong about electronic shifting, I can be wrong about this too.

[David Kirk]

Certainly individuals do this, but they are hardly the only ones. Companies, manufacturers, entire marketing departments do the same thing as they try to sell their latest and greatest offerings to the world.

I hear you and Peter (just above your post) and agree. And at the same time I can't think of a single thing I can't get anymore that I really want. There's plenty of stuff that isn't right for me or is just crap but all the good stuff I prefer is still available and it gets better year after year. I don't lament that at all.


dave

[Mark McM]

I hear you and Peter (just above your post) and agree. And at the same time I can't think of a single thing I can't get anymore that I really want. There's plenty of stuff that isn't right for me or is just crap but all the good stuff I prefer is still available and it gets better year after year. I don't lament that at all.

Well, there are a few things that I miss that are really hard to find these days:

- Cranks with low U-factor for ankle clearance (external bearing BBs and wider BB shells killed these).

- MTBs which allow my preferred low handlebar position (I had trouble getting the handlebar low enough with 26" wheels, 29" wheels make it just about impossible).

- Decent single pivot brake calipers (my hands are strong enough that I don't need the leverage of dual pivot brakes, and the lower leverage of single pivots accommodates variations in rim widths better, making swapping wheels with different rim widths possible without re-adjusting the brakes.)

[palincss]

Certainly individuals do this, but they are hardly the only ones. Companies, manufacturers, entire marketing departments do the same thing as they try to sell their latest and greatest offerings to the world.

Actually, the way they force us is by discontinuing the older stuff. And the way we play into their hands is by exaggerating and hyping the fear of such discontinuance.

[thirdgenbird]

Well, there are a few things that I miss that are really hard to find these days:

- Cranks with low U-factor for ankle clearance (external bearing BBs and wider BB shells killed these).

My measurements were quick and dirty, but my ultra-torque crankset has a lower u-factor than my c-record crankset and it looks very close to my last gen alloy chorus square tapers.

In your defense, i have gomango's cross bike in my possession and it's 6700 crankset has a much wider u-factor.

[fogrider]

I would love to have disc brakes on the road...just to try! I've ridden on campy for many years...I've put time in riding campy delta's so I don't need massive amounts of braking power but I really appreciate modulation.

with wheel weights, what counts is the rim weight, heavy hubs is not an issue, light rims will spin up fast and feel responsive.

there are still issues to be worked out, but as always, someone has to take the lead and build a good bike with what's available...

[oldpotatoe]

I hear you and Peter (just above your post) and agree. And at the same time I can't think of a single thing I can't get anymore that I really want. There's plenty of stuff that isn't right for me or is just crap but all the good stuff I prefer is still available and it gets better year after year. I don't lament that at all.


dave

BUT, like going into a Toyota store, a 'bike shop', is 3 big makers and your $2500-$3000 'bike, will have carbon frame and fork, probably 10s, maybe 11s, compact crank, some sort of goofy low count, big decal wheelset..whether ya like it or not.

So ya want a bar end, with ability to have fenders and racks, triple geared, big tired, bike, made of metal...high end, for $2500-$3000...not gonna find it unless you look hard, even in the bike nutz republic.

[David Kirk]

BUT, like going into a Toyota store, a 'bike shop', is 3 big makers and your $2500-$3000 'bike, will have carbon frame and fork, probably 10s, maybe 11s, compact crank, some sort of goofy low count, big decal wheelset..whether ya like it or not.

So ya want a bar end, with ability to have fenders and racks, triple geared, big tired, bike, made of metal...high end, for $2500-$3000...not gonna find it unless you look hard, even in the bike nutz republic.

I agree - niche stuff will take more time/energy to find and won't be sitting on the shelves of average shops and this will result in many not knowing that this niche stuff even exists..........and they might never even consider it. This is sad in a way. It's sad and at the same time healthy.

I think of the parallel in the car biz - you can't currently buy a 'simple' car with carburetors and the lovers of carbs strongly lamented their passing. It was the end of the world. I personally love working on a car with a pair of side draft Webers and have no idea what to do with my lap top and a fuel injection system. But the market move to FI and the death of carbs was a very good thing for countless reasons. Understandably carb lovers worried that it will be impossible to get parts and tuning advice...........yet it's never been easier to get parts for your Weber DCOE's and advice as to how to tune them is right on the phone in your pocket. Carbs are anything but dead even though you can't walk into NAPA and get jets for your Holley's.

At the same time the service shops that educated themselves on how the new FI stuff worked got more biz than they could handle and loved those FI cars all the way to the bank...........and just as interesting to me the shops that still know how to work on your Webers are also doing very well providing a service that isn't common but still very much needed.

The bike biz feels very similar to me.

dave

[Mark McM]

My measurements were quick and dirty, but my ultra-torque crankset has a lower u-factor than my c-record crankset and it looks very close to my last gen alloy chorus square tapers.

In your defense, i have gomango's cross bike in my possession and it's 6700 crankset has a much wider u-factor.

Campagnolo Ultra-Torque cranks have the lowest U-factor of all the external bearing cranks, as low as some internal bearing cranks (square taper and ISIS). Other external bearing cranks have higher (and sometimes much higher) U-factors. But the Ultra-Torque U-factor is still not as low as is possible with square taper cranks. Ultra-Torque U-factor is 128mm, but my Stronglight Speedlight cranks have a U-factor of 123mm on their 103 square taper BB. The Dura-Ace cranks meant for 103mm BBs and Campagnolo cranks designed for 102mm BBs had even lower U-factors.

[oldpotatoe]

I would love to have disc brakes on the road...just to try! I've ridden on campy for many years...I've put time in riding campy delta's so I don't need massive amounts of braking power but I really appreciate modulation.

with wheel weights, what counts is the rim weight, heavy hubs is not an issue, light rims will spin up fast and feel responsive.

there are still issues to be worked out, but as always, someone has to take the lead and build a good bike with what's available...

Rim weight, whether it's 350 grams or 450 grams really means little. A light wheel(carbon rim mostly)set 'feels' crisp cuz it's stiff not cuz it' light.

[thunderworks]

Genetics, the ultimate upgrade!

Tim

+1 . . . I want better genes too! Do the big 3 sell any?

[thirdgenbird]

Campagnolo Ultra-Torque cranks have the lowest U-factor of all the external bearing cranks, as low as some internal bearing cranks (square taper and ISIS). Other external bearing cranks have higher (and sometimes much higher) U-factors. But the Ultra-Torque U-factor is still not as low as is possible with square taper cranks. Ultra-Torque U-factor is 128mm, but my Stronglight Speedlight cranks have a U-factor of 123mm on their 103 square taper BB. The Dura-Ace cranks meant for 103mm BBs and Campagnolo cranks designed for 102mm BBs had even lower U-factors.

Like I said, my measurements were quick but UT looked close to a chorus 102 bb. I may have miss measured.

[bfd]

BUT, like going into a Toyota store, a 'bike shop', is 3 big makers and your $2500-$3000 'bike, will have carbon frame and fork, probably 10s, maybe 11s, compact crank, some sort of goofy low count, big decal wheelset..whether ya like it or not.

So ya want a bar end, with ability to have fenders and racks, triple geared, big tired, bike, made of metal...high end, for $2500-$3000...not gonna find it unless you look hard, even in the bike nutz republic.

Haha, I like the "Toyota Store" reference. Yes, the big 3 with their "concept stores" do exactly that. Further, they've now branched out to the all purpose "sports stores" and offer some really good deals! For example, it is hard to beat a C'dale Evo with 10s Sram Red, compact cranks and no-name/but low count/big decal wheels (hey, got to cut corners somewhere!) that weigh in at about 15lbs (w/o pedals) for about $3k or so. These Chinese-made bikes are a great value and very hard to be, if that's what you want. This bike also comes with ultegra di2 for about the same price. Interestingly, a buddy was interested in both bikes, but ended up getting a Trek Madone 6.x because he felt the C'dale rode too harshly!

For those wanting bar-end, fenders/racks, triple gearing and fat tires, steel frameset Trek still sells the 520 touring for about $1500 and it seems to meet these requirements:

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/road/touring/520/520/#

Specialized and C'dale's versions have some sort of integrated shifters. The big question is whether the big 3 store stocks these bikes or if its "special order only!" :confused::eek::butt:

[h2oxtc]

My 2 cents ... I bought this orphan frame from the LBS last spring intrigued with the thought of trying disc brakes. The BB7 Road SL mech disc brakes are fabulous for all the reasons stated in earlier posts, but I'm not going to replace the DuraAce and Campy caliper brakes on my other road bikes either. Will all road bikes eventually have disc brakes? I hope not, but I certainly don't mind having a road bike with disc's.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7349/9960380533_6e25356d9c_c.jpg

[Charles M]

I'm swapping to full length housing and BB7sl on two bikes...

We'll see how much of a match the lever smoothness will be compared to the Full Hydro.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/DSC01160-813x1024.jpg


Frankly I'm glad to see someone post a picture of a bike with discs they'e using...

This thread would only be a page long if only the folks with hands on experience posted.

[Schmed]

I'm swapping to full length housing and BB7sl on two bikes...

We'll see how much of a match the lever smoothness will be compared to the Full Hydro.

Try the Yokozuna housing. I have it (full length) with my BB7 SLs and it feels very close to my hydro brakes. Super smooth!

[kidbill]

I really want my road bike to have disk brakes. Especially hydraulic. *Ahem* Shimano.

[fogrider]

Rim weight, whether it's 350 grams or 450 grams really means little. A light wheel(carbon rim mostly)set 'feels' crisp cuz it's stiff not cuz it' light.

I ride with aluminum rims during the week and carbon rims on the weekend ride. True that carbon rims are stiff, but I don't think my aluminum rims are soft and the carbon rims accelerate like nothing else!

[oldpotatoe]

I ride with aluminum rims during the week and carbon rims on the weekend ride. True that carbon rims are stiff, but I don't think my aluminum rims are soft and the carbon rims accelerate like nothing else!

Like alloy chainring bolts being 'way lighter than steel', doesn't mean steel ones are heavy.

Saying a carbon rimmed wheel is way stiff doesn't mean that an aluminum one is soft and flexy. 'Most' of the 'spins up really fast' effect is from stiffness tho, not a 100 grams or so of rim weight differences.

[Puget Pounder]

But what about the dick brakes?

[Charles M]

I would love to have disc brakes on the road...just to try! I've ridden on campy for many years...I've put time in riding campy delta's so I don't need massive amounts of braking power but I really appreciate modulation.

with wheel weights, what counts is the rim weight, heavy hubs is not an issue, light rims will spin up fast and feel responsive.

there are still issues to be worked out, but as always, someone has to take the lead and build a good bike with what's available...


I'll agree with you. But not dismiss stiffness. It's a combination of things and weight is absolutely included, especially at the rim / brake track because the further the weight is from the fulcrom, the more work you have to do to move it AND the higher it's centrifugal force (resisting turning, braking and acceleration...)



Keeping it in context, with both Disc conversation as well as a direct material comp...



I have 3 sets of 303 wheels here. All brand new. A standard 303 disc tubular set, a 303 standard rim brake clincher and a 303 disc clincher set.

The weight of the 303 Disc tubular is 80 grams more (with rotors) than the 303 standard clincher.

But the 303 tubular spins up quicker, feels more responsive turning and is just a more responsive wheel. That's despite the set being 8 grams heavier.


There's roughly a 230 GRAM rim weight difference between the two and it's all at the furthest point on the rim from the fulcrum.


The stiffness is very similar between all three sets but the tubulars feel snappier.

They did when comparing the standard Tubulars versus clincher too, before the disc sets.


And of course they're running virtually identical rubber. I'm either running Vittoria Corsa and open corsa or, for the latest sets, the new Conti's with same pressures... Both makers use very similar casings and top rubbers.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/DSC01151.jpg

[p nut]

I've actually been going back to rim brakes on my mountain bikes as well. Depends on riding conditions, but rim brakes with good pads suffice for me. I'm looking to get a custom MTB frame next year with canti brakes.

[bikinchris]

What do you think ? Is it a forgone conclusion that disk brake systems for road bikes will eventually be the standard?

No one held off 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed even though we didn't need it. Not a chance that disc brakes will be kept from being the standard one day. How long that will take is the question.

[oldpotatoe]

I've actually been going back to rim brakes on my mountain bikes as well. Depends on riding conditions, but rim brakes with good pads suffice for me. I'm looking to get a custom MTB frame next year with canti brakes.

Seen that also but a decent front suspension that takes cantis is the 'long pole in the tent'...the thing that holds it all up.

[zap]

edit




Keeping it in context, with both Disc conversation as well as a direct material comp...



I have 3 sets of 303 wheels here. All brand new. A standard 303 disc tubular set, a 303 standard rim brake clincher and a 303 disc clincher set.


And of course they're running virtually identical rubber. I'm either running Vittoria Corsa and open corsa or, for the latest sets, the new Conti's with same pressures... Both makers use very similar casings and top rubbers.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/DSC01151.jpg

What we need is some insight into aerodynamics. Compare clincher disc with clincher rim. Easiest to test on some straight descent and log speeds at various points.

[Mark McM]

No one held off 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed even though we didn't need it. Not a chance that disc brakes will be kept from being the standard one day. How long that will take is the question.

The number of sprockets is just a variation of one parameter, whereas shifting from rim to hub (disc) brakes is a design paradigm shift. A better analogy might be migrating derailleur gears to internal hub gears.

In particular, the migration from 8 to 9 to 10 to 11 speed was fairly minor, since all frames (and most wheels) require no modification, just swapping of a few components. In comparison, migrating from rim brakes to disc brakes requires complete replacement of frame, fork and wheels, in addition to the brakes themselves - in other words, there is no migration path at all from rim brakes to disc brakes.

[PETER REID]

I think that front disc brakes are unneccessary where as a caliper brake on the front will do just fine. However I do like the idea of a rear disc option. I like the rear disc on a tandem where the additional weight of the 2nd rider adds to the equation:bike:

[avalonracing]

I think it's important to remember that not all users use their bikes in the same terrain and in the same way that others do and that just because rim brakes work perfectly for one person that doesn't mean they work perfectly for others. It all depends on how and where the bike is being used.


Make sense, but if this logic played through people wouldn't act like 26" mountain bikes are antiques from the last century (even though they are better suited to some trails and riders).

[avalonracing]

No one held off 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed even though we didn't need it. Not a chance that disc brakes will be kept from being the standard one day. How long that will take is the question.

Yeah, I think we need to stop the madness and boycott the bike companies unless they go back to 10 speed and stop there. I'm not looking forward to a 1/8 wide 15-speed chain.

And while we are at it, how long is it before they declare disc brakes obsolete unless they are ABS disc brakes? Hmmm... I might actually dig them on a certain decent I ride that has an off-camber switchback that is often wet. Maybe I spoke too soon.

[thirdgenbird]

I think that front disc brakes are unneccessary where as a caliper brake on the front will do just fine. However I do like the idea of a rear disc option. I like the rear disc on a tandem where the additional weight of the 2nd rider adds to the equation:bike:

I am in the oposite camp. A single pivot rear caliper is more than enough to lock up a rear wheel and modulation is often better than a dual pivot. If anything, I would like to try a disc up front (where most of your braking comes from) teamed up with a rear rim brake. All you need is a new fork, front wheel, and brake.

[cachagua]

Rim weight, whether it's 350 grams or 450 grams really means little. A light wheel(carbon rim mostly)set 'feels' crisp cuz it's stiff not cuz it' light... Most of the 'spins up really fast' effect is from stiffness, not a 100 grams or so of rim weight difference.

Scratching my head about that one. Can you say more? Seems like less mass to accelerate, for a given force, equals quicker acceleration. If a less-stiff wheel -- specifically, a wheel that's less stiff because of its rim material -- accelerates more slowly, where's the energy going that would produce acceleration in a stiffer wheel?

[fogrider]

Scratching my head about that one. Can you say more? Seems like less mass to accelerate, for a given force, equals quicker acceleration. If a less-stiff wheel -- specifically, a wheel that's less stiff because of its rim material -- accelerates more slowly, where's the energy going that would produce acceleration in a stiffer wheel?

I think stiffness in a wheel (for that matter pretty much everything on the bike) allows the power to be efficiently be converted into forward movement. and most high end bike equipment is stiff enough for most riders. but big guys and powerful sprinters want more stiffness in the stem, handlebars, cranks, fork, frame, etc. but back to the point, yes, I feel the most difference when the weight is at the rims/tires. added weight at the hub is not a big deal. I think my carbon tubular rims are less than 300 grams each and a aluminum tubular is around 350, aluminum clincher is around 400. when I ride 220 gram tubular tires on a set of carbon rims, it is so sweet!

[ceolwulf]

I am in the oposite camp. A single pivot rear caliper is more than enough to lock up a rear wheel and modulation is often better than a dual pivot. If anything, I would like to try a disc up front (where most of your braking comes from) teamed up with a rear rim brake. All you need is a new fork, front wheel, and brake.

The fixie I built up and rode for several years had a disc in front and no brake on the rear. Was a good system. Since I rode it through winter I always had good consistent braking between resisting and the disc when needed. I suspect current rear discs on road bikes are way oversized. Look at sport motorcycle rear brakes versus front brakes as an example.

[oldpotatoe]

Scratching my head about that one. Can you say more? Seems like less mass to accelerate, for a given force, equals quicker acceleration. If a less-stiff wheel -- specifically, a wheel that's less stiff because of its rim material -- accelerates more slowly, where's the energy going that would produce acceleration in a stiffer wheel?

The energy to accelerate a bicycle, recognized as at very low speeds and very slow rotation speeds of the wheels, is the mass of the bike and rider. Rim weight differences, the energy to spin to a certain speed, DO make a difference but the energy differences are really teeny, tiny. Double the weight of the rim and the energy difference is like .1 of 1%. AND these are rim weight differences of sometimes only 50 or 100 GRAMS...teeny.

[Admiral Ackbar]

don't have much to add to this conversation, but ill definitely be going disc once its a bit more proven in the road market. was about to spring for a new frameset/wheelset and some of the mech trps, but then they got recalled.

i just like the idea not having a braking surface on the rim itself, as well as the poor weather benefits as i ride in inclement conditions pretty regularly, could care less about the weight penalty or aero setbacks - i find it pretty laughable that amateur cyclists take those sort of things into account.

[Black Dog]

The energy to accelerate a bicycle, recognized as at very low speeds and very slow rotation speeds of the wheels, is the mass of the bike and rider. Rim weight differences, the energy to spin to a certain speed, DO make a difference but the energy differences are really teeny, tiny. Double the weight of the rim and the energy difference is like .1 of 1%. AND these are rim weight differences of sometimes only 50 or 100 GRAMS...teeny.

This is it exactly. No amount of subjective claims will ever get one over on the harsh reality of the physics of mass and accelleration. I role my eyes :rolleyes: in a big way when I hear claims if faster wheels over a 100 gram difference forgetting the mass if the bike and the primate that is sitting on the bike. No one can tell the difference in a blind test. It would be very hard to measure this on the road with modern accelerometers and a robot cyclist that can lay down the exact same wattage time after time. These devices can detect changes that are beyond our sensory perception. It is all a very snappy, quick, spin up faster, accelerate like a rocket placebo.