LBS crappy packing job or what?

[yoshirider]

I just purchased a bike on eBay and the bike was packaged by a high end shop in the Bay area. It arrived yesterday via UPS Ground and one end of the box was open because some of the nails holding that end came out. I open the box and to my amazement I find the skewer spring stuck in between a zip tie and the foam protecting the seat post. I took the foam off the seat post and the carbon is cracked with some of the fibers actually stuck inside the foam! The skewer nut is nowhere to be found in the package! Front wheel was removed and placed on the nondrive side of the frame. The rear wheel was still attached. Front brake was removed and hanging loose. Handlebars and shifters were detached and placed under the fork. As for frame protection, there's foam protection the seat stays, down tube, and seat tube. No foam on the fork at all only the plastic that holds the drop outs together. There are some scratches on the frame that weren't there on the original auction pictures. I'm thinking something was loose in the box and made them. Other than the foam pieces noted, there are some pieces of bubble wrap that were holding the rear wheel in place.

In a nutshell, the actual damages are:
1. cracked seat post
2. missing skewer nut
3. random scratches on the frame (hopefully none are cracks!)

The seller contacted the LBS's service manager and sent him photos. Now the manager is blaming UPS for the damages. The seller is going to file a claim with UPS. We all know how stringent UPS's packing requirements are. I have a feeling that UPS will deny the claim. I think the LBS did an insufficient job at packing the bike and the seller should pursue them for the damages. What do you guys think?

[bargainguy]

Whether it was poor packing by the LBS or poor package handling is almost a moot point here - obviously the bike didn't arrive in the same condition as shipped.

Since you purchased from ebay, do you have the right to return? That's where I'd go. Not your fault the bike was damaged in transit for whatever reason.

[54ny77]

That's brutal.

I typically go way overboard when packing a frame, including using fiber-reinforced packing tape around all edges as well as plumber pipe foam plus bubble wrap or styrofoam pellets to fill the voids, but even that looks like it wouldn't have survived whatever happened to that top tube.

That' must've been one helluva whack to make a crack like that. Carbon's pretty darned tough.

[redir]

Wow bummer man :(

I once bought a bike from a guy, granted a beat up old cross bike but still, he literally just through the bike in a box with no padding at all whats ever, nothing wrapped, just the naked bike. The wheels didn't make that journy to well.

Hope you get fixed up well.

[AngryScientist]

i concur with LBS being at fault here, at least partially. if they are being paid to pack a frame, they should do a better job. we've all seen how UPS handles packages, and if i were going to ship a frame, i would have it packed for the armageddon.

sorry to see. hope it gets resolved for you, no one wants to open a package like that, ruins your whole day.

[vqdriver]

agree. the item didn't arrive in the condition it was sold. i'd return it and let the seller deal with the claim, be it with the shop or UPS.

[vqdriver]

That' must've been one helluva whack to make a crack like that. Carbon's pretty darned tough.

i think that's the seatpost. but still.

[cachagua]

I'd second that. The seller, the shipper, and the bike shop have something they've got to work out, but it isn't something you need to be in the middle of. Not Your Problem.

Best of luck hunting for another bike!

Oops, second Bargainguy above, that is, at 10:34. Lots of posts while I was composing.

[yoshirider]

The seller has been very responsive and helpful in this matter. He told me to bring the bike to a shop to have it checked out and replace the broken seat post and missing skewer nut and send him the bill. I feel bad for him because it's not his fault. If I paid a shop to pack a bike for me, they better do a freaking good job because that service is not cheap! I'm fine with keeping the bike unless it's not safe to ride. The scratches don't appear to be serious.

[parris]

You were very smart to shoot the photos of the unopened box as well as the others. The qr spring zip tied really makes me point the finger at the shop and not shipper in this case. Bummer and I hope it works out for you.

[oldpotatoe]

Whether it was poor packing by the LBS or poor package handling is almost a moot point here - obviously the bike didn't arrive in the same condition as shipped.

Since you purchased from ebay, do you have the right to return? That's where I'd go. Not your fault the bike was damaged in transit for whatever reason.

Ya sure?

[pinoymamba]

probably a combination of both lbs and ups (these guys throw packages around like it's an olympic sport).

i hope this get's resolved quickly!

[oliver1850]

I've had the same experience with LBS shipped bikes (and parts), the average quality of packing is no better than the random ebay seller. I tell sellers who list LBS packing that they can do a better job themselves, and explain how to do it.

Your frame was at least better packed than one I got this year from Italy. Just a frameset in a cardboard box, nothing else. Dented head and seat tubes on that one.

No surprise UPS was the shipper. I plead with everyone I buy from not to use them, but some still do. One in transit right now, fingers crossed.

My experience with UPS is that they will not pay anything, if it was a private party/occasional shipper. If it was shipped by a LBS that has a UPS account and does a lot of business with them, you might stand a better chance.

If the issues aren't resolved beforehand, be sure to open an ebay case before the deadline. Some sellers will refuse to make partial refunds for damages, so be prepared to box everything up and ship it back. I think it should be ebay policy that the seller pays for the return shipping costs, and all subsequent shipping damage is at seller's risk for cases like this.

good luck.

[oliver1850]

Ya sure?

I think what Peter alludes to is why UPS won't settle on these kind of claims:

They don't want people shipping stuff that's already damaged in order to collect the insurance.

[aatores]

...maybe someone was taking out their anger at Specialized thinking there was a Big S bike in the box :)

If the LBS was Mike's Bikes I would say it's partly their fault -- I bought a bike from them and it was very poorly packed.

[pdmtong]

My handmade steel arrived perfectly via UPS. YMMV.

This pack job is lame. The last time I sent a frame it was foamed and bubbled and basically mummified inside a box I got from my LBS. I know less about shipping a complete bike, but for frame only, I will do it myself.

If you live near a Moots dealer, get one of their boxes. The have cardboard inserts (which you could make), that essentially suspend the frame inside the box by the headtube on one end and the plastic spacer you use to prevent rear dropout compression on the other end. the bike ships in a big plastic bag...no foam or bubble since no chance it contacts the box sides. slick and works.

[oliver1850]

UPS delivers a lot of stuff with no issues. But when they damage something, their policies ensure it's someone else's loss, not theirs.

Say what you will about Trek, the box the Domain comes in is damn nice box.

[Buzz Killington]

I would suggest not shipping anything fragile around the holidays. This is when the trucks are filled to the ceiling and temps at the centers doing the sorting, routing and truck fills. Just asking for trouble.

[yoshirider]

the funny thing is not only did UPS deliver my beat up bike yesterday, they also delivered a different package for a different address to my doorstep. idiots!

[ean10775]

My handmade steel arrived perfectly via UPS. YMMV.



Agreed - my handmade steel frameset arrived in great shape via UPS in a reused bike box. It think it has more to do with how carefully its packed. In this case it looks like it simply wasn't.

[PoppaWheelie]

I don't know if this would help in a claim, but I always take photos as I'm packing a frame/bike and take photos AT the drop off location of the box (assuming it is in good condition). One of my FedEx locations won't ship a box if they don't approve the packing personally...this used to irritate me, but I now think it's a good extra step. With a employee's name I figure there's at least a leg to stand on if the thing gets mangled en route.

[oliver1850]

Agreed - my handmade steel frameset arrived in great shape via UPS in a reused bike box. It think it has more to do with how carefully its packed. In this case it looks like it simply wasn't.

UPS crushed a frame for me. Folded up the rear triangle of a steel MTB frame like it was nothing. I doubt there was any reasonable amount of careful packing that would have saved it.

[zap]

Packaging should alway's factor in Box Toss Olympics.

[aramis]

I bought a bike from a shop on ebay and the rear derailleur was removed (good) but the chain was left flopping around scratching everything and none of the tubes or anything were covered. I ended up getting some money back but it annoyed me more than anything else because an extra 5 minutes or so packing would have saved it.

Then I had another one packaged by a bike shop that was ready for Armageddon.. I mean that thing was perfectly packed. Most times people packed them themselves they come in great shape too.

When I pack I make sure to wrap everything to keep from scratches or things coming out, but if the shipper decides to toss the box like crazy stuff can still get damaged. :(

With a bike that badly damaged I'd be pretty upset though.

[pdmtong]

Then I had another one packaged by a bike shop that was ready for Armageddon.. I mean that thing was perfectly packed.

This will be the case if you buy a frame from Ryun

[kokies]

I had the same issue once and filed a claim on BBB against the shop. They ended up sending significant compensation for me to remove the claim. It more then covered the damage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[oliver1850]

I bought a bike from a shop on ebay and the rear derailleur was removed (good) but the chain was left flopping around scratching everything and none of the tubes or anything were covered. I ended up getting some money back but it annoyed me more than anything else because an extra 5 minutes or so packing would have saved it.

Then I had another one packaged by a bike shop that was ready for Armageddon.. I mean that thing was perfectly packed. Most times people packed them themselves they come in great shape too.

When I pack I make sure to wrap everything to keep from scratches or things coming out, but if the shipper decides to toss the box like crazy stuff can still get damaged. :(

With a bike that badly damaged I'd be pretty upset though.

Last complete bike I bought arrived with the chain AND two big heavy stainless clad Mavic pedals flopping around loose in the box. This after I specifically cautioned the seller about making sure everything was tied down. His excuse: "I already had it boxed up". Unusually nice 20 year old frame now all chipped up because he couldn't open the box before sending it down the road. No compensation offered either.

[nighthawk]

I always pack the things I ship very carefully... and the last time I packed up a frame I spent probably 45 minutes putting the package together. I took it to UPS because they were the closest to my office and I only had time on my lunch break. After waiting in line for 20 minutes I was told they would only allow me to get insurance on my package if they packed it "in store". I told them I'd take it over to FedEx then. It was an out of the way drive after work.. but much better service, cheaper to ship, and no condescending requirement to pack my package for me. I don't think I'll ship with UPS ever again. YMMV.

[ultraman6970]

Yoshi are you sure the bike was not damaged before packing, the paint cracks look really old, not like they showed up today you know, the big crack in the 3rd pictures worries me because to do that you have to basically hit the tube with a hammer or something, the box doesnt look like beat to death or hit by a tank you know.

Just wonder if this bike was damaged from the begining and basically trying to make UPS to pay for it, the good news is that ebay have you back, in case of a dispute the item is damaged you will win, end of the story.

Open your complain, pack it back as it should so doesnt get more damaged and take more pictures too, send the bike back to the guy using fedex this time so you have a confirmation number to be sure the guy actually got the bike and get your money back, either way if the seller wants to go with ups and the insurance you have nothing to with it, is the sender the one that has to deal with that.

Good luck...

[ultraman6970]

Forgot this, do you have the ebay link to look at it?

[ultraman6970]

I will say this publicly ok? Maybe somebody else can come up with something else...

The packing was crappy ok, thats fine, the cracks in the paint there is no way to know were there before because of the components and because of the crappy pictures, the only thing that is visible is the scratch in the down tube but IMO thats just a scratch. All of the other stuff to me are just cracks in the paint job. common with carbon.

The seatpost? well this is the tricky thing, it is damaged below clamp you know, there is a big chance the thing was already damaged and since the damage was bellow the clamp you can't see it in the pictures. IMO no way to get that damage in the handling of the box, IMO that thing was cracked long time ago.

The clear is fixable, remember we went over another of this frames time ago that had the same cracks in the paint job, like 8 months ago? cant remember.

The seatpost? well IMO you should ask a reimbursement, because you really need a new one, you can't use the seatpost in that condition, that needs to go to the trash (maybe keep the clamp and bolts just in case). Probably you even have a seatpost that size in your place already...

Just my opinion..

Good luck...

[yoshirider]

That's what I thought initially too. However, I would think the shop employee would have made a note if the seat post was cracked to begin with. I recorded a video of myself unpacking the box and it looked like the seatpost was wedged between the box and the non drive side of the rear wheel. Perhaps it got pushed into something like the rear skewer or the loose nut and pressure was placed on the box to cause the crack. I took a photo of the outside of the foam for the seatpost and there are black marks and big indentation near where the spring got stuck. Something was definitely putting pressure on that seatpost.

[thirdgenbird]

UPS delivers a lot of stuff with no issues. But when they damage something, their policies ensure it's someone else's loss, not theirs.

Say what you will about Trek, the box the Domain comes in is damn nice box.

Collecting from USPS can be a pain too. They lost one of my packages and it took months for them to pay out. It was one of the worst customer support experiences of my life. Through the process I did learn why USPS tracking is worthless. They told me that it was optional for their employees to scan labels. There is nothing like charging your customer for a service and then telling your staff they don't have to provide it.

[oliver1850]

I just had my first claim with USPS a couple of months ago. It was really the shipper's fault, as he didn't tape the box seams and a rear hub and cassette escaped. I made the claim online and recieved a check for the full amount within 10 days or so. It was still a disappointment that they couldn't find the parts as I got them for a good price, but at least I didn't lose any money on the deal. This was just after Priority started having $50 insurance included. It would have been a loss for either the seller or me under the old system.

I think they are making an effort to improve tracking, but there seem to be certain facilities (Champaign sort comes to mind) where it's not getting done consistently. I'd be surprised if it's really optional as the local postmaster told me they are trying to make their tracking as good as the competition's.

[ultraman6970]

Pfff... some people is just on drugs while packing a bike, just lazy ass people and that sucks, lose parts? you put in a well packed smaller box taped at the bottom of the box.

I know you were looking for this bike for a while, i think you should just ask some money back because you need to get another seatpost, if the guy is smart he will give some money back for the problem because the worse will happens is that you will return it and he will lose more money that way. It's not your fault after all.



That's what I thought initially too. However, I would think the shop employee would have made a note if the seat post was cracked to begin with. I recorded a video of myself unpacking the box and it looked like the seatpost was wedged between the box and the non drive side of the rear wheel. Perhaps it got pushed into something like the rear skewer or the loose nut and pressure was placed on the box to cause the crack. I took a photo of the outside of the foam for the seatpost and there are black marks and big indentation near where the spring got stuck. Something was definitely putting pressure on that seatpost.

[JWDR]

I'm currently packing my own bikes to ship to Korea. One of the best items I'm currently using and have used in the past is foam pipe insulation from Lowes/Home Depot. Costs a little over a dollar per 6 ft section. Depending on frame size and how much coverage you want, one piece will do an adequate job and two pieces will cover just about every inch of tubing.

[yoshirider]

i forgot to state in the beginning that the seller agreed to reimburse me after i purchase a new seatpost. hopefully he will keep his word on that.

the purpose of this thread is to warn people like me who assumed that bike shops pack complete bikes with care. and boy was i wrong to think that! the other moral to this story is NEVER, EVER use UPS.

[54ny77]

I've had a horrible LBS pack job too. Chain bouncin' all over, frame scratched up, etc. Irony is that LBS no longer around, go figure.

FYI, if I were ever buying a frame or bike from someone using an LBS to pack it (or even from an individual for that matters), I would strongly recommend a few photos from the packer of the entirety of the pack job: first a pic of the bike/frame before placed in box, then a pic of it all once inside box, then a pic of sealed up box.

That's what I do when I ship frames or bikes that I sell. I'll take several photos of the process along the way and email to buyer. It reassures them that all precautions taken and bases are covered to the best extent possible.

[dave thompson]

It's not so much a fault of UPS, or any other shipping company. The fault lies primarily with the company/people that pack the bike for shipping. They have to anticipate and prepare for any conditions that the package may encounter.

UPS/FedEX handle multimillions of packages a day. Time is of the essence for these packages. We, their customers expect and demand that our precious things arrive at their destination within the timelines posted. Our boxes don't get handled with kid gloves. They are thrown, stacked and hurled. Folks that pack things have to consider this when they box something up.

In my experiences (many) with packaging frames and whole bikes, the single biggest thing that I found was to put stiffeners across the width of the bike box in two places. This will keep the box from being crushed. If the bike and it's components are are padded, wrapped and secured from moving around, two stiffeners located in the approximate center of the box will prevent the box from being crushed when other freight is placed on top of your mint bike. I use a hot glue gun to secure these stiffeners in place.

[Lewis Moon]

i forgot to state in the beginning that the seller agreed to reimburse me after i purchase a new seatpost. hopefully he will keep his word on that.

the purpose of this thread is to warn people like me who assumed that bike shops pack complete bikes with care. and boy was i wrong to think that! the other moral to this story is NEVER, EVER use UPS.

The only damage I ever had to shipped bike components was via UPS. I've gotten three frames shipped USPS and all arrived in perfect shape. Each was in an upright position in the truck and was carefully lifted out by the carrier.
..and don't get me started with FedEx. MULTIPLE times we've watched stuff come all the way cross country on the tracking site, only to not have it delivered and returned to the sender. I firmly believe the driver marks it undeliverable because we are out in the sticks, it's the end of the shift and they don't want to take the time. Just had one like this last week. Probably the fourth time.

[ultraman6970]

Girl is not a problem with ups you know, they packed that thing wrong, if the box is lost you can blame them but ups IMO is the least to blame (for the record i dont like them too much), I worked for them loading the trucks years ago and with the amount of crap you have to get inside of the truck well.. the guys wont kick any box but they will throw them inside you know, so if the packaging is bad then you have more chances to get the item damaged.

TO pack a bike for an LBS takes time, personally takes me like 2 hours or more of my time to pack a bike, a lbs will tell the cheaper employee to do, since probably the sucker that has no idea and gets like 7 bucks an hour and they are chargin' like 50 to do the packing, there you have it, a crappy 10 minutes packing.

Happy you got an arrangement.

Enjoy the bike :)


i forgot to state in the beginning that the seller agreed to reimburse me after i purchase a new seatpost. hopefully he will keep his word on that.

the purpose of this thread is to warn people like me who assumed that bike shops pack complete bikes with care. and boy was i wrong to think that! the other moral to this story is NEVER, EVER use UPS.

[ultraman6970]

That works but the safest is a combination...

Get packing foam blocks and stick the rear end of the bike in those, cut the foam block same wide as the box, you have the rear secured but now you need to the top and front... cut foam again and carve the shape of the tubes, like 3 blocks, one for the front tube and 2 for the top tube, put the 3 foam pieces in place, secure with tape and then you have the butt, the head and the top of the frame secured and in the middle of the box, that frame wont go nowhere. THen use bubble wrap or those foam tubes and go around the tubes.

Fork, IMO the safest place to put a fork is in the seat stays. Wrap the seat stays really well with paper or whatver, then wrap the fork blades and the steering tube really well in paper or anything, then use zip ties to tie the fork to the seat stays, once tied it wont go nowhere.

Saw a pictures the other day of a dutch guy adding card board slices around the top and the center of the frame, each slice was wide as the box, secure the cardboard and slide the frame inside of the box, the frame wont go nowhere.

Grab all the losing pieces, chain, bolts and nuts or any other crap and put it inside of a box full of paper so the pieces dont fly inside, close the box and tape it at the bottom of the box, done.


I'm currently packing my own bikes to ship to Korea. One of the best items I'm currently using and have used in the past is foam pipe insulation from Lowes/Home Depot. Costs a little over a dollar per 6 ft section. Depending on frame size and how much coverage you want, one piece will do an adequate job and two pieces will cover just about every inch of tubing.

[oliver1850]

I'm currently packing my own bikes to ship to Korea. One of the best items I'm currently using and have used in the past is foam pipe insulation from Lowes/Home Depot. Costs a little over a dollar per 6 ft section. Depending on frame size and how much coverage you want, one piece will do an adequate job and two pieces will cover just about every inch of tubing.

If you're not shipping with seatposts in the frames, buy a really cheap seatpost and cut it into short sections to clamp into the frames. Prevents damage to top of seat tube.

[batman1425]

I had a shipping experience where I was mailing my bike ahead of me on a trip I was taking. Had a local shop pack and ship for my trip home. When they boxed up my bike, they zip-tied the rear wheel to the frame with the cassette facing in, but only secured it at one point. So the wheel could slide back and fourth on the top tube basically unrestrained. The main tubes had thin cardboard around them in a few scattered places, that was it. During transit, the wheel slid toward the seat tube, and the teeth on the cassette subsequently dug into the paint and top layer of carbon. I called the shop that packed it and asked to speak to the guy who did the packing, then the owner. Neither were very apologetic, told me "thats how we always do it", then told me to go after UPS. The way the bike was packed no matter how careful UPS was this would have happened. The damage wasn't structural thankfully and after sending multiple pics of the pack job and the damage they finally agreed to for the area to get repainted. I was put off by how hard I had to fight for compensation. The guy who boxed it screwed up. That isn't my problem or UPS's.

I was sent to that shop based on the rec. of my friend that lives in the area that I was visiting. He was pretty upset as well and has since taken his business elsewhere.

[yoshirider]

Seriously, some shops have no common sense it seems.

On a positive note, the seller has already reimbursed me for the replacement seat post. The rear derailleur hanger was bent almost into the wheel spokes so I had to get that straightened up. One thing I didn't get fixed yet found puzzling was the cassette was loose because it was missing the Shimano spacer. I believe he got the bike tuned (chain was replaced, new bar tape installed, new cables) at the same shop. The mechanics that work there must be high or something. How do you miss something like that when doing adjustments? I believe the seller is pursuing the shop for damages now and I hope he gets reimbursed as well.

[thirdgenbird]

I just had my first claim with USPS a couple of months ago. It was really the shipper's fault, as he didn't tape the box seams and a rear hub and cassette escaped. I made the claim online and recieved a check for the full amount within 10 days or so. It was still a disappointment that they couldn't find the parts as I got them for a good price, but at least I didn't lose any money on the deal. This was just after Priority started having $50 insurance included. It would have been a loss for either the seller or me under the old system.

I think they are making an effort to improve tracking, but there seem to be certain facilities (Champaign sort comes to mind) where it's not getting done consistently. I'd be surprised if it's really optional as the local postmaster told me they are trying to make their tracking as good as the competition's.

My experience was two years ago.

The package was insured and the tracking number stopped at Des Moines. Their policy prohibited me from filing a claim for something like 30-45 days. In this time, I called the postmaster of the post office in Des Moines and they said that the tracking number stopping at their office meant nothing because packages were regularly not scanned. I am pretty sure the word optional was used. Our local postmaster said this was normal as well.

Because of the packages value, they had me fill out additional paperwork and provide proof of value at the local post office after my online claim was complete. Something like 30 days passed and the online claim status went to "closed" and I never saw payment.

This promoted me to call. First it took me quite a whole to find a number that wasn't an automated service or someone that could only say "your case is closed". I eventually ended up with an accounting group and they were able to call me back and let me know that my claim was closed because I did not complete all of the appropriate forms.

I then called the local office an they said the forms were mailed the day I completed them. After several more calls, I got a voicemail that said my paperwork had just showed up that day (lost in the mail???) and they would make an exception and reopen the case.

Finally, they agreed to cut a check. I asked that it be sent Fedex next day and they didn't find it funny.

Over about an 18 month stretch, my loss rate with USPS was something like 40%. All but the story above resulted in them eventually finding the package. The stem on my Colnago was delivered to an address about 60 miles from here. It wasn't an address error either. It was a standard printed label that was 100% correct. Another fun one was a package that went from the UK to the local post office faster than it went from the local post office to my residence. At that time, I lived 2 city blocks from the post office.

[Russity]

Take it from a bike mechanic who's packed hundreds of bikes and seen dozens of cracked carbon seatposts.....that post was cracked waaaaay before it ever got packaged. The damage shown in the picture certainly wasn't done in transit. That is an old wound for sure.

Sorry, but that's the truth.

[oldpotatoe]

Take it from a bike mechanic who's packed hundreds of bikes and seen dozens of cracked carbon seatposts.....that post was cracked waaaaay before it ever got packaged. The damage shown in the picture certainly wasn't done in transit. That is an old wound for sure.

Sorry, but that's the truth.

He gets it..I think the frame sold was damaged already...in spite of a crappy pack job. When I packed, and I saw damage, I always noted it and sometimes took pix of it, so the sender or receiver didn't blame my shop.

Packing and shipping is a PITA...you always set yourself up for a case like this..even if you DO a great ob, then some package smasher gets it...

Most shops around the republic don't even do it anymore..some that are 'on the roaps', still do but the healthy ones don't. Vecchio's doesn't anymore, unless it's a favor, like sending a trek back to trek for Velonews, or something.

[Rekalcitrant]

I bought a cross bike on eBay years ago that arrived damaged. It wasn't packaged well, but also looked like it had been damaged before being sent, e.g. The seller was trying to scam UPS. It took me about a month of extremely frustrating phone calls and emails but UPS eventually paid out an insurance claim. So I got the bike more or less for free. In two other cases I have had good luck dealing with sellers after damage that could have been caused in shipping but really looked like it happened beforehand. In both cases it seems like the sellers were hoping to get away with something but eventually realized it wasn't worth it. No pattern to the solutions except that I learned to be extremely persistent in these situations.