Jebus, this tickles my nethers

[Lewis Moon]

Even with ShimaNo
Anniversary Paramount (http://roadbikeaction.com/Latest-News/content/69/7523/The-Schwinn-Paramount-Returns.html)
http://roadbikeaction.com/imagefly.aspx?w=666&h=550&p=contentimages%2fwParamount_Side_View.jpg

[AngryScientist]

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

[junkfood]

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

Well said. If it is for function I understand, but a photo shoot deserves better aesthetics.

I do like the frame though.

Jake

[Lewis Moon]

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

Agreed...but the frame is the nads.

[pcb]

This bike was on display at the Philly Show. Custom-built for the owner, to his desired specs, photographed as such. Not everybody shares the same aesthetics...

The frame does have some lovely details, if you're into stainless steel and lugs.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/11079771186_2d471e9df8.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7388/11079676825_e88522c181.jpg

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

[ultraman6970]

Paramounts were nice racing machines, too much wheelbase for the tourist maybe?

[bloody sunday]

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

You really expect Schwinn to know about aesthetics?

[Scooper]

You really expect Schwinn to know about aesthetics?

I expect Marc Muller at Waterford to know about aesthetics (and just about everything else bike related), and Waterford designed the frameset, not Schwinn.

[pdmtong]

that bike and its lugs are trying too hard. dial it back and its a winner. as it sits, meh

[54ny77]

gorgeous frame, all that chrome is a tribute to paramounts of old. i have a fondness for schwinn's, since as a kid i got hooked on cycling via my green varsity that weighed almost as much as i did at the time.

this is purdy:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7333/10002210966_58be221279_n.jpg

cool story here:

"We are fortunate that the company that had built those badges prior to WWII is still in business and still thriving as a family owned manufacturer in Onalaska, Wisconsin. Metallics Inc. President Doug Dale was able to dig through his old tooling to help us get going. In 1988 the Paramount headbadge tooling had been converted to making “Schwinn Quality” badges. So we started with this and transitioned it back to producing Paramount badges.

A couple of things are new about the badges. One is the crisper compass points. The second is that it is made out of stainless steel instead of plated brass.

More importantly, it’s a reminder of a mark that to this day stands the test of time. We are proud to make it a part of the Paramount once more."

http://schwinnparamount75th.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/headbadgecomparison.jpg

edit: whoa, that's polished stainless? dang that's a whole lotta polishing.

[Steve in SLO]

I gotta disagree with the meh-ers here. IMHO the frame is great. From the polished details to the decals it swells my retro grouchy heart..

[bloody sunday]

I expect Marc Muller at Waterford to know about aesthetics (and just about everything else bike related), and Waterford designed the frameset, not Schwinn.

You just proved my point.

We're talking about a complete bike here - the frame is of course gorgeous, it's the other details that make it disappointing.

[ultraman6970]

IMO the bike would look better with a 1 cm shorter chainstays.

[rnhood]

meh, that gaudy zipp stuff, skyscraper of headset spacers and flipped up stem kill the aesthetic for me. different people need different fits, but if you're going to stage a frame for pictures, do better than that.

Agree, marred by an otherwise beautiful bike. Still very nice looking though.

[ColonelJLloyd]

That build. . . . it is not attractive.

[AgilisMerlin]

90d / 73 stem and a small spacer / tends to look nice for photo's, yes


still wrapping my head around electronic, not a convert.

[christian]

That frame is beautiful. Yum.

[FlashUNC]

The frame is nice. The rest....I tend towards Angry's assessment.

[Scooper]

You really expect Schwinn to know about aesthetics?

You just proved my point.

We're talking about a complete bike here - the frame is of course gorgeous, it's the other details that make it disappointing.

Neither Schwinn nor Waterford had anything to do with the build appearance; it's equipped with the buyer's choices. Why blame Schwinn for the buyer's aesthetic tastes?

[MattTuck]

How does it ride? THAT is the question.

[pinkshogun]

when i need a Paramount fix i turn to a friends white 1965 Paramount or another friends orange 1973

[azrider]

I dig it.

[bloody sunday]

Neither Schwinn nor Waterford had anything to do with the build appearance; it's equipped with the buyer's choices. Why blame Schwinn for the buyer's aesthetic tastes?

We both assumed, don't act like you knew that this was a personal bike before you posted about Waterford.

[AgilisMerlin]

I meant no disrespect.


just a thought

[Lanterne Rouge]

I dig it.

+1 - yeah me too but that's because my ride is set up in a very similar way. Yeah sure I could drop the bars for a better look but my back and shoulders wouldn't thank me.

[Scooper]

We both assumed, don't act like you knew that this was a personal bike before you posted about Waterford.

Please don't make assumptions about what I assumed. ;)

I've been following this project closely for months:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=138640

Each 75th anniversary Paramount is a "personal bike" built with lots of input from the customer.

http://schwinnparamount75th.com/

[AngryScientist]

Each 75th anniversary Paramount is a "personal bike" built with lots of input from the customer.


man, if i had a bike custom made for me, and it required a huge stack of spacers and a flipped up stem to make fit correctly, i'd have to give that a big, fat F

[Scooper]

man, if i had a bike custom made for me, and it required a huge stack of spacers and a flipped up stem to make fit correctly, i'd have to give that a big, fat F

Tough crowd.

There are lots of reasons the bike might look like it does, especially if the buyer has flexibilty problems but still wants a frame that doesn't have a gawky looking 300mm head tube. Neither of us has any idea what compromises went into it.

Sorry it disturbs your sense of aesthetics so much. :rolleyes:

[FlashUNC]

Tough crowd.

There are lots of reasons the bike might look like it does, especially if the buyer has flexibilty problems but still wants a frame that doesn't have a gawky looking 300mm head tube. Neither of us has any idea what compromises went into it.

Sorry it disturbs your sense of aesthetics so much. :rolleyes:

So instead of building a custom that actually fits, the buyer decides to get one that doesn't?

The owner's going to be left with an awkward looking bike either way. Why not get the one that actually, yanno, fits? Isn't that the point of custom?

[AngryScientist]

Tough crowd.

There are lots of reasons the bike might look like it does, especially if the buyer has flexibilty problems but still wants a frame that doesn't have a gawky looking 300mm head tube. Neither of us has any idea what compromises went into it.

Sorry it disturbs your sense of aesthetics so much. :rolleyes:

this is a discussion forum, and we are discussing the bike posted. no reason to take it personally at all, just a discussion.

[spdcyclist]

Tough ... ...
Sorry it disturbs your sense of aesthetics so much. :rolleyes:

If I ever ride with you guys I might have to put a brown paper bag over my ride or risk lots of whispering behind my back...

A bunch of Diva's here...

;)

[Scooper]

So instead of building a custom that actually fits, the buyer decides to get one that doesn't?

The owner's going to be left with an awkward looking bike either way. Why not get the one that actually, yanno, fits? Isn't that the point of custom?

Just my humble opinion, but the bike in the OP looks much better the way it is than if the frame were built with a longer head tube and a top tube with greater slope to get the handlebar higher.

Looking at it, I'm guessing the customer is somewhat older like me (I'm 71) and less flexible than he was 30 or 40 years ago. My custom Waterford is set up similar to the subject Paramount, but with a horizontal top tube, a 17° quill stem, and a long steerer tube with spacers. This is exactly the compromise I wanted for my fit, and I worked closely with the fitter and Waterford to get it there. I'm very pleased with its appearance and it works great for me; it gets me on my bike several times a week, and doesn't look too goofy in spite of the low handlebar drop to accommodate my flexibility issues.

I'm not taking the criticism of the set-up personally, but just want the critics to understand some of the reasons our bike setups look "different" as we age.

After all, it is just a discussion.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Waterford%20B07014/953_RS-22whmed.jpg

[tv_vt]

Anyone know what a typical Paramount's frame geo was like? Wondering about frame angles, chainstay and top tube length, fork rake, trail, and front center. Were these low trail, steep angled frames or more laid back?

I've never seen a geo chart for a '70's-'80's Paramount, so am curious what gave them the status they had back then. Was it partly just because they were American-made, versus all the Euro Peugot, Raleigh, Jackson, Frejus, and Italian frames, etc?

[Scooper]

Anyone know what a typical Paramount's frame geo was like? Wondering about frame angles, chainstay and top tube length, fork rake, trail, and front center. Were these low trail, steep angled frames or more laid back?

I've never seen a geo chart for a '70's-'80's Paramount, so am curious what gave them the status they had back then. Was it partly just because they were American-made, versus all the Euro Peugot, Raleigh, Jackson, Frejus, and Italian frames, etc?

Here's the geo for the mid-70s Paramounts. The P13 is the road racer, the P10 and P15 are light touring bikes, and the P14 is the track bike.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1976ParamountGeometryTables.jpg

Here's the '86 geometry.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/1986P-Apg28-4_zps1c52bbb7.jpg

[pavel]

re the op: meh, mine's better, even with mismatched wheels :P


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pVg302nvM3c/UqJxNuREm2I/AAAAAAAADsg/Ty1CFTjFWHc/w1598-h901-no/IMG_20131206_123641_548.jpg

[Scooper]

re the op: meh, mine's better, even with mismatched wheels :P

Late nineties Serotta-built Ti Paramount?

[pavel]

yup, it's a serromount. that is a beautiful waterford - nice touch with the chrome finish!

[Scooper]

yup, it's a serromount. that is a beautiful waterford - nice touch with the chrome finish!

Thanks! It's polished 953 stainless steel. It's one of the first 953 frames Waterford built (late 2006/early 2007) and was brazed by Dave Wages.

[oldpotatoe]

You really expect Schwinn to know about aesthetics?

Yep, I think Marc and Richard know a few things about aesthetics.

Richard Schwinn..not the 'schwinn' of today.

Bike built for customer. I'd order with Campagnolo 80th and hand built sewups..

[Scooper]

One of Dave Wages' recent builds shown in the Builder's Spotlight sticky for Ellis Cycles is Kevin's Fillet Rando (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1449273&postcount=180). The set-up is very similar to my Waterford (head tube extended well above the top tube, long fork steerer with spacers and quill stem). Dave says the bike is designed to have very little handlebar drop. Admittedly not everyone's cup of tea, but a very practical way of dealing with limited rider flexibility issues without resorting to really goofy looking "hybrid", "urban", or "comfort" geometry.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e98mmRXef3g/Un2YoK0HnkI/AAAAAAAAI1w/g7KQUv_15VM/s640/DSC03910.JPG

[SPOKE]

Yep, I think Marc and Richard know a few things about aesthetics.

Richard Schwinn..not the 'schwinn' of today.

Bike built for customer. I'd order with Campagnolo 80th and hand built sewups..

Just ordered the 80th Campy group. Working on getting the frame ordered now.....:)

[FlashUNC]

One of Dave Wages' recent builds shown in the Builder's Spotlight sticky for Ellis Cycles is Kevin's Fillet Rando (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1449273&postcount=180). The set-up is very similar to my Waterford (head tube extended well above the top tube, long fork steerer with spacers and quill stem). Dave says the bike is designed to have very little handlebar drop. Admittedly not everyone's cup of tea, but a very practical way of dealing with limited rider flexibility issues without resorting to really goofy looking "hybrid", "urban", or "comfort" geometry.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-e98mmRXef3g/Un2YoK0HnkI/AAAAAAAAI1w/g7KQUv_15VM/s640/DSC03910.JPG

Totally get the geometry changes necessary due to aging and flexibility issues, and I'd argue your Waterford and the Ellis you've posted show how you can make a custom frame that "looks right" while still addressing those issues.

If it were my money being spent on a 75th Paramount and I had similar fit issues, I'd want a bike that looks like yours or the Ellis over the bike in the OP.

[Lovetoclimb]

This bike was on display at the Philly Show. Custom-built for the owner, to his desired specs, photographed as such. Not everybody shares the same aesthetics...


Aesthetics aside, of which such a limited and unique frame deserves better, if you have a custom bike made and fitted for your body and it comes out built like this, something went horribly wrong!

[kenmetzger]

The frame looks great and I am not sure what some people think can be done to the geometry. If the rider wants little to zero bar drop, then there needs to be a high stem unless you put a horrible looking slope on the top tube.

That being said the build around that just doesn't look right. All the parts say racing bike (Dura Ace, Zipp), but the setup is for a more reasonable use. Also, with chrome lugs I would love to see some more silver going on there.

[mister]

i don't have much problem with the bike in the OP
yeah it would look better with the bars lower but if that's where the rider needs them then that's cool.
atleast there is room to get the bars lower if the rider gets in better shape...

the ti paramount, it's alright, the fork is ugly though.

that ellis, i think i threw up in my mouth a little.

[fuzzalow]

That white Paramount shown in the OP is a pretty frame. The lugs on that Paramount homage the Nervex lugs of yore are a far better interpretation than the garish newish remake of that lug design as sometimes paraded around these parts.

I agree with the sentiment (I think) expressed by Scooper in that when there are immutable fit requirements demanded by the owner/rider, that almost forces the owner/rider to be between a rock and a hard place. So the owner/rider will have to choose a compromise that makes being caught betwixt and between the best choice to be had when riding in the form like Cancellara is not in the cards. It is correct and proper that those compromises are made all in service of the ride.

I think the owner/rider made the right compromise: to slope the TT with a jumbo headtube is both very unsightly and does not respect the original lines of a level top tube as found on the original Paramount. Here as done in the OP, the frame maintains its original aesthetic integrity while the ergonomic adjustments function to the current requirements of the rider - the bike is still a Paramount. Done otherwise, the bike becomes something sloping with a Paramount head badge and downtube decal.

[SPOKE]

got confirmation that my order was accepted!! :banana: delivery sometime in March 2014.
got the full stainless version with steel fork and all the polished lugs and dropouts. pearl white main tubes with the red decals. sorta like the frame in the original post that got this thread started.
looks like the build will be the Campy 80th group.
cant wait to compare the ride of this one to my 50th Anniversary Paramount.:cool:

[Scooper]

SPOKE, that's great. :beer:

The all stainless version custom built for you with the Campy 80th anniversary group should be a heckuva ride. We'll need pictures!

[Lionel]

Paramount frame looks fine. Carbon fork and Di2 on a lugged chrome frame is completely out of place.