Forum discussions on riding position

[Grant McLean]

When reading these threads on the topic of the "proper"
fitting of a bicycle, something get stuck in my head.

For me, "Fit" is not a about achieving a static position on the bike.
The locations of the parts on my bike are a balance of many factors.

Pedaling while standing or sitting, hands in the drops, hands on the levers,
hands beside the stem. Cranking in the hooks - on the rivot,
climbing on the tops with my arse out the back...all take place in the
same "workspace".

How much of what "Fit" is about the riders personal measurements,
and how much is about "knowing how to ride"? How many fit decisions
are made by a first impression? This or that "feels" right. Really? how
would you know until you try something else? Not everything in life
feels right the first time. I couldn't pick up Miles Davis' trumpet and
sound like him just because I know which end to blow.

To me, "Fit" is about a learning curve. It's a goal, something to strive for.
How much better can you be? How much closer to the best biomechanical
position can get? How much more do I look like the man...

-g

[Fixed]

bro it may take years to get it, some of us may never get it .i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

[flydhest]

I wish I could see his seat post

[Kirk Pacenti]

I wish I could see his seat post

10 to 1 says it's offset. :rolleyes:

[e-RICHIE]

10 to 1 says it's offset. :rolleyes:


???
zero-posts were invented for mtb's.
that was long after merckx retired!

i'll take 10 to 0.






bananas

[dirtdigger88]

thems some mad nice bars- and I love the brake lever location

Jason

[Grant McLean]

bro it may take years to get it, some of us may never get it .i.m.h.o. cheers :beer:

bro get there, or not. it's about making the effort.

-g

[Kirk Pacenti]

???
zero-posts were invented for mtb's.
that was long after merckx retired!

i'll take 10 to 0.

bananas

I was being generous..... I was sure to win! :)

[Grant McLean]

thems some mad nice bars- and I love the brake lever location

Jason

learn to ride like that, and they'll name a handlebar after you too...

http://www.cycledisciple.com/Asks/askhandlebars.htm

-g

[Dr. Doofus]

the gods have spoken

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=setback&word2=zero+setback

[Chris]

Ridiculous! His seat to bar drop was way to minimal! And before you jump in and say it was about drops and hoods being in different places, it's well known that his position changed after his accident and he had to accomodate for his back pain. WAIT A DAMN MINUTE?!?! Am I saying that your position has to be influenced by your own physiology despite what Ugo would have liked to have him doing?

[e-RICHIE]

Ridiculous! His seat to bar drop was way to minimal! And before you jump in and say it was about drops and hoods being in different places, it's well known that his position changed after his accident and he had to accomodate for his back pain. WAIT A DAMN MINUTE?!?! Am I saying that your position has to be influenced by your own physiology despite what Ugo would have liked to have him doing?


i'd lay odds that that pic was taken before
the accident on the track at blois (sp?).

[dirtdigger88]

learn to ride like that, and they'll name a handlebar after you too...

http://www.cycledisciple.com/Asks/askhandlebars.htm

-g

I can post a picture later- I DO have my bike set up like this now- 66's and the levers down deep-

so start naming the bars-

I like "Dirts Bad @ss bars"-

Oh- and Chirs- my saddle to bar drop is 7cm but my saddle to lever drop is almost 11cm- and the drop to my drops is about 23cm- so its not always about the saddle to bar drop- ask the jerk- its about where your levers are

Jason

Jason

[Dr. Doofus]

all hail the orange

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=faema&word2=molteni

[andy mac]

some questions/thoughts from someone without a clue:

1. wouldn't it depend on your goals? wouldn't a crit set-up be diff than someone's century set up?

2. do people really know what's best for them? could something feel good yet be inefficient? for example, maybe if you changed the angle of your pelvis you'd better engage your gluts etc?

how many people can really self-diagnose? also how many fitters are really trained to ID stuff like this?

3. everyone has a diff biomechanical set up - even identical twins (tyler joke anyone?). what works for one may not work best for another.

question in that regard, does muscle compostition make a diff in fitting? eg fast vs slow twitch? i guess at the pointy end of competion the fast twitch guys end up on the track and the slow twitch guys end up on the road. or am i wrong? do tommy b and robbie m etc have a different genetic composition to sir lance-a-lot, herras etc??

so many questions, sadly so few brain cells...

[Grant McLean]

some questions/thoughts from someone without a clue:
...snip...
so many questions, sadly so few brain cells...

andy bro,

If you are thinking about these questions,
you're on the right track, whatever that may be.

-g

[iml]

This is interesting. I've been riding and racing bikes for many years, and it still seems to take a disproportionate amount of my time and energy, considering the other things in my life. I love it, I think about it all the time, and I train pretty much every day. I've had a number of custom frames, road, MTB, and 'cross, and I thought I'd given plenty of thought to fit.

I don't know my saddle height, or setback, or anything else like that. I don't know my saddle-to-bar drop, except that I'm 6'1" and it sure seems like a lot to most people. I think my legs are sort of long, and I don't like feeling too far forward over the pedals. I've never had any injuries or issues that made me examine the numbers. I know what I like for different bikes in a pretty general way, but that's as far as that stuff goes. I set up a a bike by feel and go. I can ride or race any of my bikes all day without any comfort issues, although I can't say for a fact that more attention to fit could not possible produce a performance gain.

The science (?) and numbers relating to fit that dominate much of this board's discussions is simply beyond me. Am I really lucky? Or am I missing something important? I wonder.

[Chris]

It is completely about feel. You couldn't be more right. Allen Lim will tell you that after extensive study regarding power output and finding the best position, that there are no hard fast rules other than people produce the most power in a position which feels the most comfortable to them. Handling may be a different issue, I'll grant you that, but in terms of setting up a bike, a lot of it (most) has to do with where you feel your best, not these rules etched in stone about seat position on the saddle rails etc. I'll concede that bikes may be designed around the idea that the optimum position, all things being equal, is to have the saddle centered on the rails on a set back post. However, nothing is ever equal in this regards.

[e-RICHIE]

It is completely about feel. You couldn't be more right. Allen Lim will tell you that after extensive study regarding power output and finding the best position, that there are no hard fast rules other than people produce the most power in a position which feels the most comfortable to them. Handling may be a different issue, I'll grant you that, but in terms of setting up a bike, a lot of it (most) has to do with where you feel your best, not these rules etched in stone about seat position on the saddle rails etc. I'll concede that bikes may be designed around the idea that the optimum position, all things being equal, is to have the saddle centered on the rails on a set back post. However, nothing is ever equal in this regards.

it is certainly about feel. but how can you seperate
the position attained by what "feels right" from the
fact that a bicycle also has to "work" efficiently? as
noted, if the frame design incorporated a zero degree
post at the outset - cool. if not, then the rider choosing
it (for whatever reason) throws a 2cm differential into
the mix. that is a huge number.

[Chris]

Look, I bow down to your skill and I am in no way arguing the design aspect of the bike. I am starting to realize why it is going to take me 3 years to get one from you, but that's a different thread :) . What I am saying in regard to setback is that clearly, although the bike design might be the most efficient dead center, you have some wiggle room within the parameters of the rails. Now if you find your position to be a little too far forward for your liking in terms of looks with a setback post (and this is anything forward of dead center for me) and you can get the exact same position with a zero setback post only with the saddle further back on the rails, then what is the problem?

Which thread is this one anyway?

[e-RICHIE]

Look, I bow down to your skill and I am in no way arguing the design aspect of the bike. I am starting to realize why it is going to take me 3 years to get one from you, but that's a different thread :) . What I am saying in regard to setback is that clearly, although the bike design might be the most efficient dead center, you have some wiggle room within the parameters of the rails. Now if you find your position to be a little too far forward for your liking in terms of looks with a setback post (and this is anything forward of dead center for me) and you can get the exact same position with a zero setback post only with the saddle further back on the rails, then what is the problem?


there is no problem.
you are concerned here with an aesthetic based issue.
as with "fit", feel is important. if there's an emotional
gain by not having a properly placed saddle forward
in a conventional post, by all means use a zero setback
and be pleased with the result. i feel ya' bro eh. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

This is interesting. ..snip..

The science (?) and numbers relating to fit that dominate much of this board's discussions is simply beyond me. Am I really lucky? Or am I missing something important? I wonder.

The numbers are there only if you need to replicate your position from bike to bike.
Numbers are a big help in that, but no number or formula will tell you what feels right.

-g

[andy mac]

i have a question about 'feel'.

my background isn't in bike racing, it's in ski racing. (and i guess i'm ok at a few other sports.)

take ski racing for example, just cause it feels right doesn't mean it's fast. or optimal. maybe it's just a position you've grown comfortable with over the years? just cause a golf swing feels right doesn't make it great. or a swimming stroke. or a base ball pitch. or a tennis serve. or...

i've seen a ton of ski racers get to even olympic level but still have problems with their technique that may be holding them back. and there are plenty of golfers who can get down to the 90's or 80's with their swing but will never break par because their technique is holding them back.

back in the day we did this really interesting workshop with our ski team. there's a famous ski university in austria (there is actually a professor of skiing) and for 2 days they took the whole team including world cup winners and had us start skiing again from scratch. Snow-plough, stem-christie, side slipping etc etc. it was amazing how many people had fundamental problems. For example my hips rotated at the end of my left turn causing the edges to slip.

So, i just wonder if feeling right is enough?

i guess these sports involve a lot more variables and technique than bike racing, so it's not apples and apples.

I have observed the best skiers, cyclists, golfers, heck pretty much every top level athlete in the world has coaches that work on that stuff. i think it's funny how many intermediate people think they don't need some help or that they have stuff 'nailed'.

that said, ain't m(any) of us here racing for a full-time living, so maybe feeling good IS enough.


(I have been seeing fitters because as a relative newbie in the big scheme of things I don’t really know which position I should be in. I’ve also been grappling with tons of injuries I can’t seem to get on top of.)

enough ramblings. Time for :beer: and hopefully some :rolleyes:

[Grant McLean]

maybe you were skiing drunk?

http://news.google.ca/news?q=bode+miller&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=nn&oi=newsr

-g

[Ray]

i have a question about 'feel'.

So, i just wonder if feeling right is enough?

that said, ain't m(any) of us here racing for a full-time living, so maybe feeling good IS enough.
I don't know much, but I know I can go faster for 20 miles in a different position that I can complete a century in. Since I care more about longer, steady state, rides that burning up a race or a shortish club ride, I go for the position I'm comfortable enough in to ride the better part of all day. I've been told I could be faster/more efficient and I believe it, but I don't much care. I've tried a position recommended to get me there, spent many months trying to adapt to it, and finally blew it off for something more comfortable. So I think a lot of it comes down to goals.

I also know that the article on fit that makes more sense to me than all of them put together is: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm because it takes personal preferences into account, even if at the expense of efficiency.

-Ray

[andy mac]

Am I really lucky? [/QUOTE]


yes you are. cherish every ride.

or maybe i'm just really unlucky. :crap: i haven't really been able to ride for a year and they still don't know what's wrong with me. probably into 5 figures on dr's fees, bike fits, mri's, x-rays, yada yada, yada... should stick to what i'm good at :beer:

[Louis]

the gods have spoken

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=setback&word2=zero+setback

Not a fair fight, because "xxx" will always have more hits than " "xxx" and "yyy" " regardless of what you use, since the latter is a subset of the former...

[e-RICHIE]

Not a fair fight, because "xxx" will always have more hits than " "xxx" and "yyy" " regardless of what you use, since the latter is a subset of the former...


try dis...

http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=traditional+seatpost&word2=zero+offset+seatpost

[Sandy]

Try "lugged steel bicycles" versus "tig welded steel bicycles". Which do you think would win?


Big Lug Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

Try "lugged steel bicycles" versus "tig welded steel bicycles". Which do you think would win?


Big Lug Sandy


i did --
that's why i am sending this from
a tavern using a blackberry imho :beer:

[jerk]

i did --
that's why i am sending this from
a tavern using a blackberry imho :beer:


lucky ****ing bastard.

jerk