Climbing by the Numbers

[2LeftCleats]

There’s a local hill that kicks my butt. I’d like to return the favor. It’s steep—est. 18-20% and probably a quarter mile long. I know the one obvious method of doing better is to ride it often. For various reasons, that’s not practical. My thought is that if I figure the force necessary for each pedal stroke, I can prepare for the struggle by doing leg presses, one legged squats, etc for as many reps as it would take to climb the hill. A bit silly perhaps, but in thinking about this problem I’m not clear how to calculate the force (both pushing on the pedal and pulling up on the bar).

If I have the slope of the hill and the inches up the slope traveled with each pedal stroke, I can get the vertical distance moved. How do I translate the force required to lift my weight + bike weight that distance into pounds? Not sure I’m setting this up correctly, but thought it was an interesting mental exercise.

Any ideas from those less mathematically challenged than I?

Thanks.

[bluesea]

All you'll do is get faster, because 20% always kicks butt.

[Ahneida Ride]

work on squats .... start out slow and low weight

[Ahneida Ride]

Another idea

lower gearing and then sit and spin ...
I have 20 gear inches (22 ring / 29 cog)

It get's me up those 18-22% grades

[mtechnica]

you need to account for your mass x gravitational constant as acceleration acting downwards so you needs to exceed that in the vertical direction in order to not decelerate when climbing the hill. If your exertion is in watts which is a joule per second, you can split the problem up into vector components and come up with a formula for the hill that tells you how many watts it requires you to exert in order to ride up it at a certain velocity. You can also time yourself up the hill and estimate your w/kg. You can also, then, see if standing and mashing or sitting and spinning is more efficient by trying both a few times. Looking at it from a perspective of force per pedal stroke isn't helpful since it's hard to convert leg motion from lifting weights to power output in cycling since your power depends on the RPM and also involves many variables and muscle groups which specific exercises like leg presses tend to isolate. Furthermore lifting is basically an anaerobic exercise and even in a short-ish ~400m hill your vo2 and stuff is going to come into play. In other words, lift if you want to but you can't train for climbing or estimate times by lifting IMO.

[Lewis Moon]

Another idea

lower gearing and then sit and spin ...
I have 20 gear inches (22 ring / 29 cog)

It get's me up those 18-22% grades

It's only 1/4 mile long; a sprint hill. To get the absolute (KOM) best time you'll need to be out of the saddle the entire time. There's no substitute for actually riding hills of this type. Find a shorter hill at near this grade and do repeats with HR hitting +- 95% of max at the top. Puke and repeat.

This will not be fun.

[MattTuck]

In other words, lift if you want to but you can't train for climbing or estimate times by lifting IMO.

My thoughts as well. Strength training is great, but sprint interval training will pay dividends when you're actually riding it.

[laupsi]

My thoughts as well. Strength training is great, but sprint interval training will pay dividends when you're actually riding it.

yes, don't forget about conditioning the lungs, it's a requirement.

[2LeftCleats]

Thanks. Didn't necessarily think my way was practical but was curious about how to do the math.
This is not a sit and spin type hill unless you're very liberal with the term 'spin'.

It was definitely an anaerobic experience.

[slidey]

yes, don't forget about conditioning the lungs, it's a requirement.

+N (where, N is an arbitrarily large number)

In my very ltd experience, lungs matters a damn lot. Inexperienced sharp breathing techniques will drain out the energy very quickly. The only approach I'd suggest is as Lewis Moon suggested, out of the saddle but try dancing* up the first few times you do this while focusing on your breathing. This is to say, I'm skeptical of any non-climbing efforts in translating to quicker climbing times.

*dancing = exert force comes from the legs, not the hands almost as if walking up the hill

[Ti Designs]

I love a good challenge... The funny thing about the guys who calculate watts and mass and incline is that none of them seem to be able to get up a hill. Perhaps thats because biomechanics play by different rules. Muscles as motors are a slightly defective design. Blood flow doesn't happen when the muscle is under tension, so it's all about the duty cycle. A duty cycle of 40% or less (60% recovery time) is sustainable, go beyond that and it's not. Mate that with your power calculations and you begin to see the real picture.

If this were my challenge (it sorta is) I would do a number of things. First, I would design a weight training program to isolate large muscle groups in the direction and within the range of motion used on the bike. Second, I would write up a pyramid set that is unsustainable given the constant force method of lifting. Third, I would work on climbing technique out of the saddle.

The weight training program I'm in the process of writting up now, I can e-mail it to you if you want. It's a serious program, it takes up some time on the leg press, but it's what one of my riders used to get her three victories on Mt Washington... The technique work is a matter of first understanding how to limit duty cycle, then getting on a spin bike and putting in the time to make it second nature. I'll be working on a video of that soon enough.

[John H.]

The math that makes sense to me is not replicating it in the gym via force.
I think about this in terms of the max power that you have for that length of climb and what your ideal cadence is at that power band.
If the gear is too big, you will not be able to hold your max power for the length of the climb.
So the short answer is to try a lower gear and see if that allows you to go faster.
The long answer is to increase power and/or reduce weight (rider and bike).

[Mark McM]

It's only 1/4 mile long; a sprint hill. To get the absolute (KOM) best time you'll need to be out of the saddle the entire time.

A hill of this length and grade is not a sprint (for anyone). The length of time of a true sprint effort is in seconds, whereas this hill will take minutes to climb. So, treat this hill as a short power interval. (And no, the best performance will not necessarily mean being out of the saddle the whole time.)

In regard to required leg strength, that shouldn't be limiting factor with proper gearing. Since the effort is a few minutes, the limiting factor will be how long you can ride at just above the anaerobic threshold.

[Lewis Moon]

A hill of this length and grade is not a sprint (for anyone). The length of time of a true sprint effort is in seconds, whereas this hill will take minutes to climb. So, treat this hill as a short power interval. (And no, the best performance will not necessarily mean being out of the saddle the whole time.)

In regard to required leg strength, that shouldn't be limiting factor with proper gearing. Since the effort is a few minutes, the limiting factor will be how long you can ride at just above the anaerobic threshold.

You're, of course, correct, on the power interval thingy. However, I stand by the "out-of-the-saddle" prediction.

[fiamme red]

You're, of course, correct, on the power interval thingy. However, I stand by the "out-of-the-saddle" prediction.It depends on body type and personal preference:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=811058

[2LeftCleats]

I love a good challenge... The funny thing about the guys who calculate watts and mass and incline is that none of them seem to be able to get up a hill. Perhaps thats because biomechanics play by different rules. Muscles as motors are a slightly defective design. Blood flow doesn't happen when the muscle is under tension, so it's all about the duty cycle. A duty cycle of 40% or less (60% recovery time) is sustainable, go beyond that and it's not. Mate that with your power calculations and you begin to see the real picture.

If this were my challenge (it sorta is) I would do a number of things. First, I would design a weight training program to isolate large muscle groups in the direction and within the range of motion used on the bike. Second, I would write up a pyramid set that is unsustainable given the constant force method of lifting. Third, I would work on climbing technique out of the saddle.

The weight training program I'm in the process of writting up now, I can e-mail it to you if you want. It's a serious program, it takes up some time on the leg press, but it's what one of my riders used to get her three victories on Mt Washington... The technique work is a matter of first understanding how to limit duty cycle, then getting on a spin bike and putting in the time to make it second nature. I'll be working on a video of that soon enough.

Instead of emailing, I bet others would be interested. Can you post it?

Regarding the specific hill, I could have gone to larger cogs, but I try to challenge myself with a 39-21 or 39-23. I only got halfway up this one in the 23 before bailing to my 25, the largest I had.

[AngryScientist]

can you borrow (or do you have) a power meter? or easier is to just download the power numbers of anyone who has ridden that segment. that will take a lot of the guesswork out of the numbers for power required...

[slidey]

Easier said than done, and so here goes -
No reason to make it worse for your knees by not using the right tools for the job. Getting good at climbing is less to do with what cog of the cassette you're on, and more to do with how quick you're pedaling up a hill. If you're grinding your way up, then my understanding is that you are building strength whilst running the risk of damaging your knees. That does very little in terms of direct translation to climbing prowess, but will give you bigger quads.

I could have gone to larger cogs, but I try to challenge myself with a 39-21 or 39-23. I only got halfway up this one in the 23 before bailing to my 25, the largest I had.

[Chief]

Neglecting effects of friction the minimum required power P is:

P=WxVxd/Sqrt(1+dxd)

where W is the weight of the bike and rider
V is the speed going up the hill, and
d is the percent slope divided by 100.

[OtayBW]

A hill of this length and grade is not a sprint (for anyone). The length of time of a true sprint effort is in seconds, whereas this hill will take minutes to climb. So, treat this hill as a short power interval. (And no, the best performance will not necessarily mean being out of the saddle the whole time.)

In regard to required leg strength, that shouldn't be limiting factor with proper gearing. Since the effort is a few minutes, the limiting factor will be how long you can ride at just above the anaerobic threshold.
+1.
I live on a hill ~1/4 mi in length and 20% grade. You would be surprised just how subtle changes of a percent or two as the road 'flows' dictates the dynamics of your attack, or provides just a very slight 'recovery', or changes whether you choose to (or need to) stay in the saddle or come out. This all depends on so many minor things, but on balance, a sprint it is definitely not, and how you ride it changes depending on many factors that vary at any given point in time. :cool:

[aramis]

Instead of emailing, I bet others would be interested. Can you post it?

Regarding the specific hill, I could have gone to larger cogs, but I try to challenge myself with a 39-21 or 39-23. I only got halfway up this one in the 23 before bailing to my 25, the largest I had.

So you're trying to climb an 18-20% hill for 1/4 mile in 39-21? Any one want to figure out the power you would have to make to keep a cadence of something like 70 rpm up an 18% grade?

[John H.]

Need to know weight of rider and weight of bike.

So you're trying to climb an 18-20% hill for 1/4 mile in 39-21? Any one want to figure out the power you would have to make to keep a cadence of something like 70 rpm up an 18% grade?

[Chief]

Need to know weight of rider and weight of bike.

For 18% grade at 70 rpm in a 39-21, Power = 3.68 watts per pound of rider and bike.

[wallymann]

Once I've got good condition, the single biggest factor I've found to improve climbing is to lose some body mass. While not easy, its simple and free AND EFFECTIVE!

5# drop makes a big diff, 10# makes a MASSIVE diff.