First pricing info from Saratoga Frameworks

[Nooch]

Looks like their Race Steel is going to be $2430 frame/fork:
http://saratogaframeworks.com/category/blog/

"SF Race Steel: Yours for $2,430
This SF Race Steel, the first of its kind, emerged from the factory this week.

By using size-specific oversized steel tubing that is butted to reduce weight and improve performance, we are able to produce a refined but race-oriented ride with this classic material. The oversized head tube and bottom bracket maximize stiffness during all-out efforts, while the S-Bend chain stays and seat stays further enhance the lively ride of steel.

Price, you ask? The frame alone is $1,850. With an Enve 2.0 Tapered fork, the retail price is $2,430. It’s available in stock sizes of 50, 52, 54, 56, 58 and 60cm. Or you can order semi-custom (add $300) or full custom versions (pictured, add $600).

Here are the specs:

Size-specific butted tube set
Hooded dropouts
44/49mm tapered head tube
PF30 bottom bracket
Tapered S-Bend seat stays
Tapered S-Bend chain stays
Finish: One color with painted logos
Seat collar
Enve 2.0 Tapered fork, painted to match frame"

Which begs the questions: Would you consider one?

[spacemen3]

Yay, for steel! Looks like a valiant effort to me. :beer:

[FlashUNC]

Not with a PF30 BB.

Pricing is competitive with what's out there these days.

[ergott]

Woah. Stuff just got real up in here.

[PaMtbRider]

Not with a PF30 BB.

Pricing is competitive with what's out there these days.

+1, threaded BB for me

[charliedid]

Nice looking bike,that one.

[christian]

I'd consider it, for sure, but I don't prefer a PF30 bb, I don't love sloping bikes, and the price is within a few hundred bucks for a tig-welded fully custom Zanc or Hampsten.

It's a "probably not" for me, but it looks like an awesome bike. And being third fiddle to Zanc or Hampsten isn't a bad place to be!

[Saint Vitus]

Note to self, start bike fund today.

[jmoore]

meh.



I'd rather have a custom Bedford/Zank/Hampsten/Strong/etc over this frameset any day. This wouldn't even be on my radar, esp. tacking on $600 for custom.

[Elefantino]

If I'm going steel I'm going with Rex.

Ti and I'm going with DeSalvo.

Nice to see them progressing, but pass.

[laupsi]

no, this box already checked for me. it would have to be something really special.

[Lewis Moon]

If I'm going steel I'm going with Rex.

Ti and I'm going with DeSalvo.

Nice to see them progressing, but pass.

Yeah, I can get a complete fillet brazed custom from Coconino for that, and Steve is a really nice guy who lives and works just up the road. If you're going to sell cookie cutter frames for the price of a boutique build, I'm not investing.

[AngryScientist]

let's face it, buying a new $2k+ steel frame in 2014 is just as much about buying the builder, or the company as it is about buying the bike.

i just cant see dropping big money on a bike from these guys right now because the future of "saratoga frameworks", at least IMO, is so up in the air. will they be around in 1,5, 10 years - anyone's guess as far as i'm concerned.

i'm sure the bikes will be excellent, but not better than a kirk, bedford, etc, and those guys are known players.

[DRZRM]

Well, the SF stickers are much improved over the last we saw. Anyway, yeah I'd consider one, though at the end of the day, I'd likely finally decide to follow Cristian and get another Zanc. I do have a question though, is Saratoga Frameworks to Serotta what Independent Fabrication was to Fat Chance (ironically when Chris merged with Ben in Seratoga)? Or are they still owned by that big investment house that killed Mad Fiber, Serotta and (I assume) Blue. Is this independently owned by former Serotta employees, or is it part of...whatever that company was named. I have to admit, that would make a difference to me in considering anything they built.

[oldguy00]

Hate to say it, but thats a pretty boring looking frame, regardless of the price. Looks like a $400 soma smoothie.
Nothing personal.... I thought Serotta frames were beautiful (but too much $$).
If I had that budget for steel, I'd be talking to Dave Anderson.
.02

[PaMtbRider]

Ok, I took a closer look. Full custom takes the price to over $3000. Wouldn't even consider it at that price. There are just so many good builders out there that offer a steel frameset in either tig or lugged in that price range. Which begs the question, why should I buy from them?

[John H.]

I like it, but for almost $2500 I would also get a Steve Rex.
No way I would buy a metal bike with PF30 (steel or ti)- it is just begging for creaks.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but not in my stable. That spot is reserved for Kelly.

BBD

[Lewis Moon]

It would seem that Saratoga is trying to ride the coat tails of Serotta. The new name even says that.
Serotta – Ben ≠ Saratoga. It equals a new frame company, or at least an older frame company that has lost its center. It needs to act like it. They can’t start up where they left off, no matter how the company was previously dysfunctional. They need to earn back their share of the market.

[Mr. Pink]

Well, it is made in the old factory by the same people and being sold in part of the old distribution network. Not exactly starting from scratch there.

[akelman]

It's amazing how quickly the new head tubes have turned me into an old man yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

YOU KIDS AND YOUR TUMESCENT HEAD TUBES NEED TO GET OFF MY LAWN OR I'LL TURN THE HOSE ON YOU!

[FlashUNC]

It's amazing how quickly the new head tubes have turned me into an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

YOU KIDS ARE YOUR TUMESCENT HEAD TUBES NEED TO GET OFF MY LAWN OR I'LL TURN THE HOSE ON YOU!

http://www.thedailyrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/angry-old-man.jpg

[Lewis Moon]

Well, it is made in the old factory by the same people and being sold in part of the old distribution network. Not exactly starting from scratch there.

Not starting from scratch, but also very much not the same company. I also think it's pretty cheap to pick a name so close to the previous one.

[biker72]

Ok, I took a closer look. Full custom takes the price to over $3000. Wouldn't even consider it at that price. There are just so many good builders out there that offer a steel frameset in either tig or lugged in that price range. Which begs the question, why should I buy from them?

I could get a Kirk for that price....:)

[FlashUNC]

Ok, I took a closer look. Full custom takes the price to over $3000. Wouldn't even consider it at that price. There are just so many good builders out there that offer a steel frameset in either tig or lugged in that price range. Which begs the question, why should I buy from them?

Same here. Just noticed that. I supposed it's still comparable to other builders doing full custom, but there are full custom options out there that are far cheaper for an excellent product.

[pjmsj21]

So why would one choose Saratoga Frameworks over the handful, or more, of great builders, that will stand behind their work? Certainly price doesn't seem to be much of an incentive. I love my Serotta but in the unlikely event that I do have an issue with the frame, I no longer have recourse for a warranty repair. There are just too many other choices that are significantly better.

[phcollard]

For $1875 I had a full custom built Alliance frameset (that is frame and fork).

Mainly Columbus Life, the welds are perfect, finish is awesome, geometry is dialled. All good. The bonus on top of that was to deal with Erik Rolf who made sure the whole process was absolutely enjoyable and exciting.

So as far as I am concerned... I feel no need for spending $1850 (frame only) on a Saratoga :)

[buddybikes]

Get a Seven Cycles for hundreds less.

[pdmtong]

Hate to say it, but thats a pretty boring looking frame, regardless of the price. Looks like a $400 soma smoothie.


I dont think a soma smoothie has these features
Hooded dropouts
44/49mm tapered head tube
PF30 bottom bracket
Tapered S-Bend seat stays
Tapered S-Bend chain stays

let's face it, buying a new $2k+ steel frame in 2014 is just as much about buying the builder, or the company as it is about buying the bike. i'm sure the bikes will be excellent, but not better than a kirk, bedford, etc, and those guys are known players.


Ok, I took a closer look. Full custom takes the price to over $3000. Wouldn't even consider it at that price. There are just so many good builders out there that offer a steel frameset in either tig or lugged in that price range. Which begs the question, why should I buy from them?

I'll go the other way...the buyer is getting a frame from a factory, from a company. for some folks, the idea of working with a one man shop is daunting and risky. why else do people buy IF over FF, or seven/moots over ericksen or kellog?

The world of customers is (hopefully) bigger than all the ga-ga-NAHBS-loving people who reside on this board

[ergott]

Get a Seven Cycles for hundreds less.

What's the price of a Seven frame?

[gdw]

Tough crowd. Waterford sells quite a few 33 series frames for $450 more.....

[charliedid]

So why would one choose Saratoga Frameworks over the handful, or more, of great builders, that will stand behind their work? Certainly price doesn't seem to be much of an incentive. I love my Serotta but in the unlikely event that I do have an issue with the frame, I no longer have recourse for a warranty repair. There are just too many other choices that are significantly better.

"There are just too many other choices that are significantly better." Like who, and significantly better how?

I mean how many frames from higher end shops get warrantied anyway? I get not wanting to buy from a startup but these guys are not exactly new at this...

[Lanterne Rouge]

Looks a lot like an IF bike. And I'd probably go with IF if I was choosing.

[bcm119]

I can’t help but think back to all the heated threads about Serotta’s pricing over the years, and the consensus was very often that Serotta needed to produce a no-frills, non-custom steel race frame for a reasonable price. Now they’ve done that (minus Ben’s presence in the building) and no one wants one?

[JimmyTango]

I want one.

[Mr. Pink]

I would if I just didn't buy one.

[Lewis Moon]

I can’t help but think back to all the heated threads about Serotta’s pricing over the years, and the consensus was very often that Serotta needed to produce a no-frills, non-custom steel race frame for a reasonable price. Now they’ve done that (minus Ben’s presence in the building) and no one wants one?

a) it's not Serotta, it's not even the company formally known as Serotta.
b) it's not a reasonable price for an off the rack frame

[gdw]

What is a reasonable price for a stock steel TIG welded racing frame these days? I'm not looking for a fight but know Gunnars cost under a thousand and stock Gaulzetti Corsa's start at $2999..... How much does Vanilla charge for stock Speedvagens?

[Mr. Pink]

A custom Strong steel is about 1800, frame only.

[oldpotatoe]

Looks like their Race Steel is going to be $2430 frame/fork:
http://saratogaframeworks.com/category/blog/

"SF Race Steel: Yours for $2,430
This SF Race Steel, the first of its kind, emerged from the factory this week.

By using size-specific oversized steel tubing that is butted to reduce weight and improve performance, we are able to produce a refined but race-oriented ride with this classic material. The oversized head tube and bottom bracket maximize stiffness during all-out efforts, while the S-Bend chain stays and seat stays further enhance the lively ride of steel.

Price, you ask? The frame alone is $1,850. With an Enve 2.0 Tapered fork, the retail price is $2,430. It’s available in stock sizes of 50, 52, 54, 56, 58 and 60cm. Or you can order semi-custom (add $300) or full custom versions (pictured, add $600).

Here are the specs:

Size-specific butted tube set
Hooded dropouts
44/49mm tapered head tube
PF30 bottom bracket
Tapered S-Bend seat stays
Tapered S-Bend chain stays
Finish: One color with painted logos
Seat collar
Enve 2.0 Tapered fork, painted to match frame"

Which begs the questions: Would you consider one?

OS head tube and PFBB30, on an oversized tubed steel frame. I wouldn't for those 2 'features'.

[bcm119]

a) it's not Serotta, it's not even the company formally known as Serotta.
b) it's not a reasonable price for an off the rack frame

I doubt there's much functional difference between a Serotta and what these guys are building now.

[Lewis Moon]

What is a reasonable price for a stock steel TIG welded racing frame these days? I'm not looking for a fight but know Gunnars cost under a thousand and stock Gaulzetti Corsa's start at $2999..... How much does Vanilla charge for stock Speedvagens?

A Ritchey Road Logic is $1299 for a complete frame but they're welded in Taiwan.

A Sachs will cost you $5000

[Pete Mckeon]

BEDFORD either thru him or directly from Kelly Bedford would (as is) my choice and I love the ride. Smiley dialed it in also. Tig is good as is lugged, pick the price loin that:):bike: PETE:banana:

[ean10775]

Too rich for my blood for a stock frame and as others have said, for custom the market is crowded with top notch builders at that price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Oregonic]

Not gonna knock em - haven't seen one in person and don't really care that much one way or the other.

But, for comparison's sake, an "off the peg" steel DeSalvo ranges from $1575 to $1775, depending on tubing. $175 upcharge for full custom. No fork in that price, but I know you can clear a complete bike w/ Ultegra, Enve fork, etc. for around $3500. Just a reference point.

[Germany_chris]

I like the paint and ~$2500 isn't any where near out of the ball park..I like many would prefer a normal HT and threaded BB though.

[pdmtong]

Not gonna knock em - haven't seen one in person and don't really care that much one way or the other.

But, for comparison's sake, an "off the peg" steel DeSalvo ranges from $1575 to $1775, depending on tubing. $175 upcharge for full custom. No fork in that price, but I know you can clear a complete bike w/ Ultegra, Enve fork, etc. for around $3500. Just a reference point.

That's not a completely fair comparison. Mikes bikes have long been lower priced relative to just about anyone. And as the guy welding the speedvagens I am not sure why.

As for the bb30. Well campy now has a crank for such shells without an adapter (I think) so no issue for new builds. Issue if you want to run your 9speed square taper .... The reality of marketing

[krhea]

the world of customers is (hopefully) bigger than all the ga-ga-nahbs-loving people who reside on this board

+1

[pbarry]

FWIW, Serotta, now SFW, were/are wholesaling their frames to their dealers. Their net is 30-40% less than the retail price.

OTOH, even with this business model, an $1,895 retail for a U.S. made steel frame, with fork, would sell a lot of units, and could still turn a profit. Gunnar does it for even less. Steel tubing is relatively cheap. Tig welding takes longer than brazing, but there's no need for lugs or finish filing. Don't be surprised if the prices posted on the blog are reduced, cause I don't think there will be enough takers to keep the line rolling.

More apt price comparisons would be divided into three categories:
1) One man shops;
2) Small to medium sized companies distributing through a dealer network, like Seven, IF, Moots, and SFW;
3) The big guns outsourcing to the Far East.

[rounder]

BEDFORD either thru him or directly from Kelly Bedford would (as is) my choice and I love the ride. Smiley dialed it in also. Tig is good as is lugged, pick the price loin that:):bike: PETE:banana:

I went with what Pete said. Plus, it put a smile on my face.

[pdmtong]

Don't be surprised if the prices posted on the blog are reduced, cause I don't think there will be enough takers to keep the line rolling.

The price has to be a number that lets them into the discussion. But, even before that, they need to be considered to be part of the discussion.

Everyone here knows that what makes a bike is more than the tubes and the price. Its the tube choice, the manipulation, the welding, the geometry, and probably a dozen other things I cant think of right now.

Supposedly Scott etc has a geometry they like for their bikes, and that will translate to a signature ride, in the same vein as a moots cr in stock 55 delivers a signature ride.

now its up to SF to get the word out. NAHBS might be a place. Bike Rumor might be. A handful of shops would be another. Haven't paid attention to this piece...but we are seeing progress here. some kind of phoenix is trying to take flight

[pbarry]

Well said, but they are late to the party, so price really matters, as the brand has been severely diminished. I wish them well, and hope they find their legs/wings if only for the financial stability of the folks building them who've dealt with all of the BS trickling down over many years.

Cheers

[CunegoFan]

The world of customers is (hopefully) bigger than all the ga-ga-NAHBS-loving people who reside on this board

These days those ga-ga-NAHBS-loving people are about the only ones in the market for a steel frame.

[Oregonic]

That's not a completely fair comparison. Mikes bikes have long been lower priced relative to just about anyone. And as the guy welding the speedvagens I am not sure why.

.... The reality of marketing

I agree, and disagree. The fact that Mike can deliver, arguably, some of the best construction and finish out there - an opinion shared by his peers - and do it for less than SF (and many others), in my mind that makes for the perfect counterpoint. If he were cranking out clumsy welds, etc., then it would be unfair to bring his brand up in this discussion. But the fact that he is delivering the same or better quality as the best in his industry for a reasonable fee simply backs up some of the points being made re: high pricing. Which is, simply, that it is possible to have a nice handmade bike without breaking the bank.

As for the marketing comment, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

[pdmtong]

I agree, and disagree. The fact that Mike can deliver, arguably, some of the best construction and finish out there - an opinion shared by his peers - and do it for less than SF (and many others), in my mind that makes for the perfect counterpoint. If he were cranking out clumsy welds, etc., then it would be unfair to bring his brand up in this discussion. But the fact that he is delivering the same or better quality as the best in his industry for a reasonable fee simply backs up some of the points being made re: high pricing. Which is, simply, that it is possible to have a nice handmade bike without breaking the bank.

As for the marketing comment, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

I see your point (and those of others).

I'm not a blind flag waver. At some point, going back to the original argument around serotta's demise, there needs to be a differentiated compelling reason to buy.

serotta got caught up arguing the superiority of minutia. now desperate times call for desperate measures. The clock on SF is ticking. They need units sold and built and shipped. The only way I know to turn a buyers head with an undifferentiated product is via price.

BTW...I'm with you on mike. Mad skills.

[Ahneida Ride]

These days those ga-ga-NAHBS-loving people are about the only ones in the market for a steel frame.

I can't speak for other builders, but I can assure you that for
Mr. Bedford that just ain't the case.

Kelly's steel clientele prefer the feel of steel and desire a full custom frame
that offers both high performance and value. Steel offers a fast light
bike and custom offers an optimal position.

I suspect this is also true for many of the other premier builders who
offer custom crafted Tig steel frames.

-----

Incidentally, I was told the same thing about HB wrap.
Only the retro grouches will buy the stuff.
I'd be outa bidness if I had to just rely on retro grouch sales :banana:

[happycampyer]

What's not clear from the website is how Saratoga intends to distribute its bikes. If it's through dealers—which for a factory with the output capacity of Saratoga is likely the only model that makes sense—then the price doesn't seem out of line. A steel frame and fork from Waterford (33) or IF (Crown Jewel) is around $2,300, and I think a Seven Axiom is in that range as well. Comparing prices to one-man shops that sell direct to customers—and often have long wait lists—is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison. A person who walks into a LBS that is a Waterford, IF or Seven dealer likely isn't into the whole cult-of-personality thing. They ideally want to be able to test ride a bike and, if they like it, have it in 2-4 weeks. Imo the key for Saratoga will be reengaging with a dealer network that has seen a lot of turbulence over the years. This will likely take time, and they may have that time if they are able to produce bikes through other channels (i.e., contract and private label), which I understand they have a pipeline of orders for.

What's striking to me just how much of a departure these bikes are, and their distribution model is, from the old Serotta. The non-proprietary parts (from the fork to the seat collar), the newfangled features (PF BB30 bottom bracket, tapered headube—didn't Ben at one point call oversized headtubes "stupid"*?), the real-world prices and the willingness to do contract work to fill capacity are like the cycling equivalent of Miley Cyrus twerking or swinging on a wrecking ball versus playing Hannah Montana.


*As a design matter—as an aesthetic matter I don't disagree.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Emotional issues aside, if I try to be as objective as possible, and simply as a discriminating buyer who does some research before spending $2k on anything, I would not go for one of their steel frames for two big reasons . . .

1) Undifferentiated product--they don't strike me as special in any way. Granted, it's hard to make a steel frame seem glamorous or special from all the others in this day and age, but that's the reality. They need to do this, and that's partly a marketing issue. Serotta has been awful at marketing across the 12 years I've been an owner, and I don't see it getting better now. It would require a project of Rapha-esque dimensions--and success--to make it work at this point.

2) Warranty--I have absolutely no confidence this company will be here down the road. Sure, if my SF steel frame breaks I could likely just give Kelly a call and pay him and it would be good as new. But that's me as an experienced cyclist. As a consumer, I'd do the research mentioned above, find out a bit about the situation through the slandering lens of the Internet, and I'm gone.

The ONLY quick fix for these problems for me as a consumer would be price. Is it a screamin' deal? Well, look at the prices. The answer is no.

They still have the same problems as they did when Ben owned it. High overhead and management that doesn't see the dire need for world-class marketing. (Note that's not a slam on Bill Rustylion. He was making the right moves. Just a matter of too little, too late, and not enough $$ behind it.)

BBD

[oldpotatoe]

Tough crowd. Waterford sells quite a few 33 series frames for $450 more.....

Not quite, R-33 always custom...

[oldpotatoe]

I agree, and disagree. The fact that Mike can deliver, arguably, some of the best construction and finish out there - an opinion shared by his peers - and do it for less than SF (and many others), in my mind that makes for the perfect counterpoint. If he were cranking out clumsy welds, etc., then it would be unfair to bring his brand up in this discussion. But the fact that he is delivering the same or better quality as the best in his industry for a reasonable fee simply backs up some of the points being made re: high pricing. Which is, simply, that it is possible to have a nice handmade bike without breaking the bank.

As for the marketing comment, I think you hit the nail on the head there.

BIG difference is selling thru a dealer vs. selling direct. If the builder wants to get the same margin from either, it's easy to sell a frame for $lots less than if you add a layer of margin.

BUT he must realize that when he does sell direct, w/o dealers, he'll sell fewer as well.

pbarry gets it..3 'layers' of frame manufacturer, each with different margins, expenses, different biz models.

[fuzzalow]

There's not a scintilla of anything to grab a hold of with these frames other than if you are cheering for the good folks at the factory to survive the incompetence of Ben from a fate they didn't bring on themselves. That will sell about a dozen frames to buyers that know the origin of SFW. For any other buyer, is there any other angle to ignite interest or desire in these frames?

All the rest of business topics like distribution, margins and warranty issues are interesting for sure. And all moot if the cash flow is not sustained because the product is run of the mill and the story is, well, "We're back!". Whoa Nelly and Katy bar the door.

I hate to sound dour but these frames are DOA.

[Mikej]

What's that ti road frame fork going for? Cuz that thing is sweet!

[charliedid]

Well said, but they are late to the party, so price really matters, as the brand has been severely diminished. I wish them well, and hope they find their legs/wings if only for the financial stability of the folks building them who've dealt with all of the BS trickling down over many years.

Cheers

How can you be late to a party that never ends?

[charliedid]

Emotional issues aside, if I try to be as objective as possible, and simply as a discriminating buyer who does some research before spending $2k on anything, I would not go for one of their steel frames for two big reasons . . .

1) Undifferentiated product--they don't strike me as special in any way. Granted, it's hard to make a steel frame seem glamorous or special from all the others in this day and age, but that's the reality. They need to do this, and that's partly a marketing issue. Serotta has been awful at marketing across the 12 years I've been an owner, and I don't see it getting better now. It would require a project of Rapha-esque dimensions--and success--to make it work at this point.

2) Warranty--I have absolutely no confidence this company will be here down the road. Sure, if my SF steel frame breaks I could likely just give Kelly a call and pay him and it would be good as new. But that's me as an experienced cyclist. As a consumer, I'd do the research mentioned above, find out a bit about the situation through the slandering lens of the Internet, and I'm gone.

The ONLY quick fix for these problems for me as a consumer would be price. Is it a screamin' deal? Well, look at the prices. The answer is no.

They still have the same problems as they did when Ben owned it. High overhead and management that doesn't see the dire need for world-class marketing. (Note that's not a slam on Bill Rustylion. He was making the right moves. Just a matter of too little, too late, and not enough $$ behind it.)

BBD

"2) Warranty--I have absolutely no confidence this company will be here down the road. Sure, if my SF steel frame breaks I could likely just give Kelly a call and pay him and it would be good as new. But that's me as an experienced cyclist. As a consumer, I'd do the research mentioned above, find out a bit about the situation through the slandering lens of the Internet, and I'm gone.
"

Really? This is what people think about when they buy a high end made in USA bike? I thought the quality and durability was one of the crowning hallmarks of buying such things? How many frames have you or others here had fail over the years??

Part of what SF needs is marketing for sure. I dare say if one or three people on this forum were to buy one and sing it's praises they would have a # of people lined up to buy one. For a ton of people it's WHAT you ride not how you ride it. Most people believe Kelly or Rex or (insert handmade name here) make great bikes because they first believe - for whatever reason - in the people or bike shop that introduced them to it.

They don't need to figure out some design quirk that supposedly delivers a 'signature' ride, they need to get them in the hands of people and bike shops respected (deservedly or not) and deliver a quality product with no or little drama.

Running around talking about how much BETTER all these other bikes are is just silly IMO. People are fickle and like new things and like to be the first to ride the new bike. This place is a perfect example of that...

I would start by building a small dealer network.

Pricing will figure itself out.

[FlashUNC]

BIG difference is selling thru a dealer vs. selling direct. If the builder wants to get the same margin from either, it's easy to sell a frame for $lots less than if you add a layer of margin.

BUT he must realize that when he does sell direct, w/o dealers, he'll sell fewer as well.

pbarry gets it..3 'layers' of frame manufacturer, each with different margins, expenses, different biz models.

That still seems to indicate they're going to be stuck in something of a no-mans land. How do you unseat the entrenched Waterfords of the world when you're starting point is that awkward middle ground between the big guys and the small players?

It's a tough sell -- unless they're getting them in a lot of dealers' hands imo and fixing those network issues they've had, well, forever.

My Della Santa took a bit longer, but it was full custom with a lot of bells and whistles, and still cheaper a couple hundred bucks cheaper when it got to my doorstep than their stock frame.

[FlashUNC]

"2) Warranty--I have absolutely no confidence this company will be here down the road. Sure, if my SF steel frame breaks I could likely just give Kelly a call and pay him and it would be good as new. But that's me as an experienced cyclist. As a consumer, I'd do the research mentioned above, find out a bit about the situation through the slandering lens of the Internet, and I'm gone.
"

Really? This is what people think about when they buy a high end made in USA bike? I thought the quality and durability was one of the crowning hallmarks of buying such things? How many frames have you or others here had fail over the years??



When it's the same folks who abandoned folks and their warranty claims from the Serotta days not too long ago, I'd say that's a totally valid concern.

[charliedid]

When it's the same folks who abandoned folks and their warranty claims from the Serotta days not too long ago, I'd say that's a totally valid concern.

Well sure, but that should have no bearing on SF as a new Co. going forward in reality. I get that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but that is really a different situation than SF selling new a new bike.

[Ahneida Ride]

The REAL challenge in repairing a Serotta is finding or duplicating the
swagged tubes.

[Mikej]

The REAL challenge in repairing a Serotta is finding or duplicating the
swagged tubes.

Not really, they already have all of the machinery and the guys who used to do it.

[Ahneida Ride]

Not really, they already have all of the machinery and the guys who used to do it.

I agree, But will they actually swage a one off tube to repair a Serotta ?

and will they sell a tube to another builder if another builder is doing the
repair?

Kelly has repaired a few CSI's and he was able to secure from the
factory OEM swagged tubes.

[Lewis Moon]

OK, this is the way I see Saratoga: They're making Michelob and charging for Stone Imperial Russian Stout.

That's a Friday analogy for the board.

[Oregonic]

BIG difference is selling thru a dealer vs. selling direct. If the builder wants to get the same margin from either, it's easy to sell a frame for $lots less than if you add a layer of margin.

BUT he must realize that when he does sell direct, w/o dealers, he'll sell fewer as well.

pbarry gets it..3 'layers' of frame manufacturer, each with different margins, expenses, different biz models.

Absolutely agree. In the long run, though, if I'm the consumer, none of that matters a bit to me. Assuming all things are fairly equal in the quality of the frame and materials, then I'm going to buy for one of two reasons.

1. Best price - SF is just not at the top of that list right now.
2. Best experience - working with an independent builder puts a face (or at least a voice and a valued opinion) with a name.

As FlashUNC said, they're sort of in a no-man's land in between those two. If they want to rise from the ashes, they're frankly going to have to pick one or the other - relying on the history behind the old name isn't going to get them there. Not that I'm rooting against them, I really hope (mainly for jobs of the folks doing the building) that they can make it.

But, they're going to have to come up with a marketing or pricing strategy that moves them in the direction of one camp or another. In most cases, the consumer really doesn't care how they choose to distribute. They either want the best deal, or the best product. When you start out small - you can afford to build a reputation one customer at a time. When you're trying to "go big" from the starting gun, you need someone trumpeting a message with a reason to buy.

Maybe that's your point (and perhaps their strategy behind closed doors). Build up a quick dealer network (sales reps, effectively) to move enough product to make this thing work. Use the website as a showroom, with limited direct sales.

Because they're not grabbing me from a price/value standpoint right now. My initial reaction - they may be great frames, but there are other options that equal or surpass them on quality, and beat them on price and "purchasing experience".

[BumbleBeeDave]

Well sure, but that should have no bearing on SF as a new Co. going forward in reality. I get that it leaves a bad taste in your mouth but that is really a different situation than SF selling new a new bike.

I guess I would have to disagree.

This owner abrogated all the warranties of the former owner. Even if he keeps the company, what's to keep him from doing it again? What's to keep him from unloading the company on somebody else and they do it? More likely, company continues downward slide and he shuts it down, puts all those people out of work, and walks away with a nice fat tax deducation. Then there's no backing of any kind.

Again, if I had bought one of these bikes with my present knowledge, and were put in that situation, I'd just look to Kelly for repairs. But if I'm an average careful consumer and see the history of the enterprise over the past year, I would run, not walk, to anothe company for my steel frame.

BBD

[zap]

How many frames have you or others here had fail over the years??



I had 5 framesets go kaput over the years.

Trek treated me very well. No cost replacement.

Cannondale pitched in some for both road and mtb frames.

One I paid to have repaired-steel tandem frame.

Litespeed Titanium………………useless. Cut the crappy frame into pipes for a buddies project.

Anyhow, I'm intrigued. I keep waiting for the Oxidized Kitty to appear.

[charliedid]

I guess I would have to disagree.

This owner abrogated all the warranties of the former owner. Even if he keeps the company, what's to keep him from doing it again? What's to keep him from unloading the company on somebody else and they do it? More likely, company continues downward slide and he shuts it down, puts all those people out of work, and walks away with a nice fat tax deducation. Then there's no backing of any kind.

Again, if I had bought one of these bikes with my present knowledge, and were put in that situation, I'd just look to Kelly for repairs. But if I'm an average careful consumer and see the history of the enterprise over the past year, I would run, not walk, to anothe company for my steel frame.

BBD

Fair enough.

I guess I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that the Serotta decision was proof that the brand is dead and that it's an anomaly not a business strategy going forward.

i guess it just shows how different people are. Maybe I am more the emotional type who sees something I like and goes after it not thinking too much about warranties and weather or not it's 15% more than something similar.

Anyway, I think we can all be confident that they are well made bikes.

[charliedid]

I had 5 framesets go kaput over the years.

Trek treated me very well. No cost replacement.

Cannondale pitched in some for both road and mtb frames.

One I paid to have repaired-steel tandem frame.

Litespeed Titanium………………useless. Cut the crappy frame into pipes for a buddies project.

Anyhow, I'm intrigued. I keep waiting for the Oxidized Kitty to appear.

5?

You sir are a monster or have terribly bad luck. ;-)

Trek is damn good about that aren't they?

Cross your fingers!

[RonW87]

Which begs the question, why should I buy from them?

First use, I moved on. Second time, I have to make a comment.

Garner, B.A. (1995). Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage. Oxford Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage. Oxford University Press. p. 101. ISBN 9780195142365. LCCN 95003863. "begging the question does not mean “evading the issue” or “inviting the obvious questions,” as some mistakenly believe. The proper meaning of begging the question is “basing a conclusion on an assumption that is as much in need of proof or demonstration as the conclusion itself.”

[zap]

Trek is damn good about that aren't they?



One reason why I purchased another Trek product….mtb.

[54ny77]

I like Turtles.

http://www.maniacworld.com/i-like-turtles.jpg

[charliedid]

Snapping
Box
Painted
Sea

What type of turtles?

[John H.]

I have been thinking about this since I posted that I would buy someone else's steel bike before I would spend $2500 on a Saratoga.
Maybe these guys know what they are doing?
Instead of marketing to us, they are going to races, putting bikes under racers, using social media- that sort of thing.
It could just work?

[jpw]

where this goes may well depend on the deal Saratoga is offering potential dealers.

[John H.]

If they could offer a custom race ti that would sell for slightly less than say an IF ti or a Seven Ti they could gain some traction.
Part of why Serotta failed was that they prcied the Legend out of the market. At one Time a Legend was $3000-3500 tops as a custom frame with a fork- price went up over $5000.

[charliedid]

where this goes may well depend on the deal Saratoga is offering potential dealers.

Yes, and great deals on demo fleet bikes. Get customers and employees on those bikes.

Start with a dealer network of a dozen shops.

[John H.]

Employee purchase is key.
When I worked for a Serotta dealer circa 2003 I was able to buy a custom Legend with a fork for $1500.
Having that Legend kept me super stoked on selling them.

[bcm119]

OK, this is the way I see Saratoga: They're making Michelob and charging for Stone Imperial Russian Stout.

That's a Friday analogy for the board.

I appreciate the beer reference, esp. at 430 on a friday. But seriously? Michelob is bottom of the barrel beer made with the cheapest possible ingredients. Do you really think the same guys who built Serottas are now building low end, crappy frames from cheap tubing?

I'm not rushing out to buy a SFW bike either but this seems a little extreme.

SFW could learn something from shops like Co-Motion. If they can do some legwork in the area and get some sponsorships going in the northeast scene, they just might survive. Scale it from "world class cycles" to no-frills racing frames for the northeast cool kids.

[charliedid]

Employee purchase is key.
When I worked for a Serotta dealer circa 2003 I was able to buy a custom Legend with a fork for $1500.
Having that Legend kept me super stoked on selling them.

Absolutely.

[velotrack]

I'm a fan of the tapered headtube, but in the framebuilding world, if that's really all they have to offer, even with the price, I would assume most people would rather shell out a few hundred bucks more for something a little more special than a 2400$ frameset with stock sizing.

[CunegoFan]

If I pay that much for a stock metal frame then I at least expect sizes in one cm increments instead of two.

No 55cm. No sale.

[Oregonic]

SFW could learn something from shops like Co-Motion. If they can do some legwork in the area and get some sponsorships going in the northeast scene, they just might survive. Scale it from "world class cycles" to no-frills racing frames for the northeast cool kids.

Hmm, that actually seems like a good idea... I've always liked Co-Motion, for that reason alone.

[WickedWheels]

Don't get so worked up over this. The pricing isn't attractive. The ownership isn't better. They won't be around much more than a year anyway. I would be sending my resume everywhere I could if I was working there.

[Pete Mckeon]

"comfort level" level for me to get something there is not present, I believe the business model is max profit and then sell assets (assets based on other models like that and their short history in not not to me a long term relationship. :eek:



I guess I would have to disagree.

This owner abrogated all the warranties of the former owner. Even if he keeps the company, what's to keep him from doing it again? What's to keep him from unloading the company on somebody else and they do it? More likely, company continues downward slide and he shuts it down, puts all those people out of work, and walks away with a nice fat tax deducation. Then there's no backing of any kind.

Again, if I had bought one of these bikes with my present knowledge, and were put in that situation, I'd just look to Kelly for repairs. But if I'm an average careful consumer and see the history of the enterprise over the past year, I would run, not walk, to anothe company for my steel frame.

BBD

[Pete Mckeon]

Lightspeed is not in the same quality league as Moots or ERicksen,

and ZAP is an "animal" but a gentleman one :)

I had 5 framesets go kaput over the years.

Trek treated me very well. No cost replacement.

Cannondale pitched in some for both road and mtb frames.

One I paid to have repaired-steel tandem frame.

Litespeed Titanium………………useless. Cut the crappy frame into pipes for a buddies project.

Anyhow, I'm intrigued. I keep waiting for the Oxidized Kitty to appear.

[charliedid]

"comfort level" level for me to get something there is not present, I believe the business model is max profit and then sell assets (assets based on other models like that and their short history in not not to me a long term relationship. :eek:

Yeah, so how'd that work out for you and your good pal Ben? Your long term relationship...

Keep drinkin' that wine.

[charliedid]

Don't get so worked up over this. The pricing isn't attractive. The ownership isn't better. They won't be around much more than a year anyway. I would be sending my resume everywhere I could if I was working there.

"They won't be around much more than a year anyway. "

Yeah? Fill us in on how it's gonna go down...

[dave thompson]

Yeah, so how'd that work out for you and your good pal Ben? Your long term relationship...

Keep drinkin' that wine.

Cheap shot

[malcolm]

cheap shot

+1...........

[BumbleBeeDave]

Yeah, so how'd that work out for you and your good pal Ben? Your long term relationship...

Keep drinkin' that wine.

. . . even if Pete wasn't one of the founders of this forum and one who has done more for it than you would ever know, it would still be a cheap shot.

BBD

[Ahneida Ride]

If it were not for Pete,This joint would not exist in it's current format.
Pete has put in many years of dedicated service baby sitting us.

Would it be an unreasonable request to engage Pete with a bit
of deference and respect?

Unfortunate recent events were not precipitated by any of Pete's
actions or participation.

Actually if some of Pete's suggestions were implemented, things may
not be as they are now.

[dave thompson]

Yeah, so how'd that work out for you and your good pal Ben? Your long term relationship...

Keep drinkin' that wine.

The more I read this comment, the more it pisses me off.

Regardless of who Pete is or what he's done here, he offered his opinion. His opinion may be more or less valid than other opinions but why take this discussion to such a personal level? What sort of animus have you for these others? They do something personal to you? There is absolutely no reason and it's against forum rules to make (stoop) to such personal attacks/comments. You denigrate the forum and yourself when doing so.

[Matthew]

What's with all the animosity, anger, bickering on this forum about? At the end of the day we are really only talking about bikes right? We got it. Serotta didn't last for various reasons. I am as bummed about it as anyone as I have been a fan for many years and a proud owner too. Throwing whoever under the bus now really doesn't matter at this point. Good luck to SFW. Hope they make it. Don't like the price, don't buy one. Just like the choice you have with every other product for sale, bikes or not. Sometimes I really hate the internet. Brings out the worst in people and makes everyone a badass since nobody has to talk face to face.

[Germany_chris]

You picked on Pete really??

c'mon of all the people in this place he is the least deserving of a below the belt shot.

[Ahneida Ride]

Pete has offered his distilled wisdom over the years to move events
in a positive direction ...

Now guess in what direction the momentum actually moved ?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . is taking some time out to think about this. :no:

BBD

[bluesea]

^ I have as dim a view of Saratoga Frameworks as anyone else, but if what you are referring to is a temp ban, that's bull***t.

[WickedWheels]

There are a few topics on here that are really just powder kegs waiting to blow. Serotta and their future is one. Shopping at LBS vs mail order and Lance are the other two I can think of. I get it. A lot of people are emotionally invested in these subjects, myself certainly included. In some ways that's what makes this an interesting forum. The Shimano/SRAM/Campy debates are too rudimentary for this crowd and that's nice. I think if you're participating in some of these topics, past the first few pages, you should expect it to get rough. At page 10 there's little of value to add to the topic so it's going to get ridiculous and personal. Perhaps there should be a page limit on these 3 topics.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[beeatnik]

There are a few topics on here that are really just powder kegs waiting to blow. Serotta and their future is one. Shopping at LBS vs mail order and Lance are the other two I can think of. I get it. A lot of people are emotionally invested in these subjects, myself certainly included. In some ways that's what makes this an interesting forum. The Shimano/SRAM/Campy debates are too rudimentary for this crowd and that's nice. I think if you're participating in some of these topics, past the first few pages, you should expect it to get rough. At page 10 there's little of value to add to the topic so it's going to get ridiculous and personal. Perhaps there should be a page limit on these 3 topics.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

You forgot Rapha and saddle-to-bar-drop-stem-length-pro-fit stuffs.

:p

[Pete Mckeon]

and we can discuss.:)

ALso to Ray and others. THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT and FRIENDSHIP>


Pete (bike and rider lover).


Ben and I are still friends, which we have been for over 30 years.:cool:


Yeah, so how'd that work out for you and your good pal Ben? Your long term relationship...

Keep drinkin' that wine.

[malcolm]

disdain for a disparaging remark directed to someone who as best I can remember has always only been helpful to all is warranted but a ban threatened or real is teetering on childish and I suspect the insulted aforementioned person would not support it.