Duh… maybe it's really not all about weight.

[thwart]

Seems that things are not completely understood about the effect of weight, compliance, vibration, inertia, and how it relates to on-the-bike performance.

This was brought to my attention again today. I had mounted up a set of older wheels on a favorite steel frame (DeRosa Neo Primato) recently, just to see how they rode. Campy Veloce polished hubs, box section Torelli Master rims, 32 spokes, brass nipples. Classic 'old skool' stuff. Total weight for the wheelset is around (shudder...) 2000 gms. Brought the bike weight up a full pound from its previous reading.

So anyway, out for a ride. Did a loop I know very well. Figured it would be a relatively slow one. 39 degrees, gray/cloudy/threatening rain or snow, 10-15 mph raw wind. Hilly, potholed route. Ideal conditions. :rolleyes:

First impression: nice smooth, damped ride. No surprise there.

Yet the bike seemed to respond surprisingly well when I pushed it, both in and out of the saddle. The illusion (or was it real?) was that the thing was certainly just as fast with these portly wheels as the Campy Nucleons that the DeRosa was usually fitted with. Anyway, average speed for the ride wound up right at mid-season pace, in spite of the awful conditions.

So, there you go. Heavy non-aero wheelset, yet amazingly good performance. Part or most of this could be a 'good legs' day, of course. Or was it just as simple as the happy combination of a steel frameset and traditional high-spoke wheels on a lumpy, bumpy course?

[FlashUNC]

It's the engine, not the bike.

[parco]

+1

[Fivethumbs]

You released you're inner retrogrouchiness.

[cachagua]

It's the engine, not the bike.

But-but-but that CAN'T be true! I just paid thousands and thousands of dollars for the newest, lightest, most aero, ceramic-bearing, electronic-- And, and, now you're telling me--

HUH! Whoa, am I awake? Oh thank God. It was all a bad dream!

[aramis]

When I first started riding I was obsessed with weight and light components.

Now I ride more and don't have the energy to worry about grams here or there. I mean a pound isn't going to make or break a ride or winning the sprint or making it to the top of a climb first. Sure it's great to have nice stuff that works well and is smooth, but once it gets to a certain point, it's not worth stressing over.

[fogrider]

I'm a big fan of retro steel but I'm also a fan of lightweight bikes...try riding that bike back to back with your fav lightweight bikes then tell me what you think.

[Louis]

Most of the time it's about whatever the Marketing dept manages to convince people it's about.

[Lewis Moon]

As a science guy I have to say N=1. Come back when you have more data with more of the variables accounted for.

As a cyclist I say, fun ride.

[oldpotatoe]

Seems that things are not completely understood about the effect of weight, compliance, vibration, inertia, and how it relates to on-the-bike performance.

This was brought to my attention again today. I had mounted up a set of older wheels on a favorite steel frame (DeRosa Neo Primato) recently, just to see how they rode. Campy Veloce polished hubs, box section Torelli Master rims, 32 spokes, brass nipples. Classic 'old skool' stuff. Total weight for the wheelset is around (shudder...) 2000 gms. Brought the bike weight up a full pound from its previous reading.

So anyway, out for a ride. Did a loop I know very well. Figured it would be a relatively slow one. 39 degrees, gray/cloudy/threatening rain or snow, 10-15 mph raw wind. Hilly, potholed route. Ideal conditions. :rolleyes:

First impression: nice smooth, damped ride. No surprise there.

Yet the bike seemed to respond surprisingly well when I pushed it, both in and out of the saddle. The illusion (or was it real?) was that the thing was certainly just as fast with these portly wheels as the Campy Nucleons that the DeRosa was usually fitted with. Anyway, average speed for the ride wound up right at mid-season pace, in spite of the awful conditions.

So, there you go. Heavy non-aero wheelset, yet amazingly good performance. Part or most of this could be a 'good legs' day, of course. Or was it just as simple as the happy combination of a steel frameset and traditional high-spoke wheels on a lumpy, bumpy course?

Of course!!

Lumpy, bumpy course, that uber light, carbon all everything may have produced a :( ride...too stiff, to unforgiving, too expensive.

[martl]

Imo, anyone who is not a serious racer who expects better performance from a lighter bike or lighter wheels has missed the clue. It isn't about performance. It is about the fun while riding.
A lighter bike is more fun. Simple as that.

[oldpotatoe]

Imo, anyone who is not a serious racer who expects better performance from a lighter bike or lighter wheels has missed the clue. It isn't about performance. It is about the fun while riding.
A lighter bike is more fun. Simple as that.

NOT quite as simple as that. Owning a bike store, I get to ride everything. From 13 pound Cannondales with 9000 Di2 to 1972 Puegeots and everything in between. I had one customer, weight obsessed, with 2 Scotts and a Time..

Even on a 10 minute test ride, those Scotts, with Campagnolo aluminum spoke wheels, and their 14.5 pounds, were painful to ride. Maybe the all carbon saddle? I don't know.

In the sweet spot of bicycle weight, ya know, 15-20 pounds or so, 'fun to ride' encompasses all sorts of things, the last one on the list is whether it weighs 16 pounds or 18 pounds..it means little..IMHO.

BUT all you can 'measure' is weight and price, BUT light and expensive does not equal 'fun to ride', automatically.

Again, IMHO.

[martl]

BUT all you can 'measure' is weight and price, BUT light and expensive does not equal 'fun to ride', automatically.

Wasn't meant like that.
What I meant was: Of two bikes that fit me the same way and have no functional drawbacks, the lighter one is more fun to ride. :)

I know that by fiddling with a bike one likes one can mess it up. But then, if you like bike technology, finding out how to make a bike lighter without spoiling it can also be fun. I had my lightest bike down to 6,4kg, but ended up downtuning it to more like 7kg - added a powermeter and replaced the fiddly CFK bottleholders, mostly :D

[rustychisel]

In the sweet spot of bicycle weight, ya know, 15-20 pounds or so, 'fun to ride' encompasses all sorts of things, the last one on the list is whether it weighs 16 pounds or 18 pounds..it means little..IMHO.

Again, IMHO.

Ah, is there a sweet spot of bicycle weight? And does it vary according to the rider's weight, in which case the variation is absolutely miniscule? And when is a bike too damn light? Or, I guess, for that matter, too heavy?

I think you're right, it's not that simple at all, but of the 4 bikes I ride, the lightweight road bike is faster by about 2kmh over the course of a ride than the steel fixed gear bike which is equally as comfortable. If not more so.

Comfort and position is an aid to capability and efficiency, even for mediocre cyclists such as I.... actually, this all leaves out only one imponderable. The placebo effect.

[OtayBW]

On the hilly terrain around here, I'll take a wheel that will spin up faster any day of the week. That is usually - but not always - directly related to weight. On a flatter ride, maybe not so much of an effect. On the other hand, light wheels on an unresponsive frameset not so hot either. So, the answer, as usual is 'it depends'.....:rolleyes:

[djg]

I wouldn't over-think it. Yeah, n = 1 if you're doing a study, but we don't need to do a study.

One pound might make a difference at the margin if you push yourself -- maybe you don't want to get pipped at the line and wonder whether just a little less work-load would have mattered, or maybe you just like the lighter kit, all things equal. But I wouldn't expect night-and-day differences in performance (nobody goes from Cat 5 to Cat 2 because of new wheels, unless the old wheels were square). I would think you'd notice a difference with nucleons in a quick switch a-b comparison, but Monday to Wednesday? Different legs, sleep, nutrition, weather? Nah. Not if all the wheels are round and true. Switching between rough roads and a very smooth crit course? I'd be much more inclined to pick a different tire and tire pressure than worry about optimal bike weight for a particular bit of road.

[laupsi]

love the software for it makes me test my inner beast. :eek:

have a hill segment I do locally, do it often, almost every ride. it's short and relatively steep, .8 mile long, average 6.5%. my best time over and over again on my Cannondale Evo w/Lightweight, Standard Rear, Ventoux Front Wheelset. comparing against my other bikes that weigh a minimum 1.5-2 lbs more, just can't get to my best time done on the Evo w/that wheelset, no matter the conditions.

on another note, longer segments, not as steep, don't see the variance from lightweight bike to average weight bike, results seem to converge.

and this is what Strava says...

[thwart]

As a science guy I have to say N=1. Come back when you have more data with more of the variables accounted for.

Comfort and position is an aid to capability and efficiency, even for mediocre cyclists such as I.... actually, this all leaves out only one imponderable. The placebo effect.

Yeah, above points well taken. But I ride this bike and route quite a bit, and the unexpected speed and willingness to accelerate was quite surprising.

The ability to put the power (:rolleyes:) down on bumpy roads undoubtedly has a lot to do with it.

… and the presence of low expectations… ;)

BTW, 1600 ft of climbing in a 22 mile loop, so not exactly a flat ride.

[nm87710]

:crap:

[Ahneida Ride]

If you are a Professional in a race, then every gram is a consideration.
and that 15 lb climbing frame may not be the safest on a twisty decent.

But we are back to reality, Most of here are not Pros and don't have
a team car behind us with a spare bike, food, liquids, jackets, etc.

Here in upstate NY, the weather and roads are unpredictable.
I probably carry about 5 Lbs of additional equipment along with me
on a ride. A non trivial part of that weight are the batteries for my
front amber and rear red DiNotte lights.

I can't afford to be stuck in the middle of no where with no Jacket
and or no Tools or a pump that does not work. I also will not ride
Without sufficient lighting.

I also need to carry my Wallet, car keys and glass case and cell phone.

So I deal in reality. I also ride a Brooks Saddle and a Nitto post
more grams right there .... but this Saddle works for me.

At 220 lbs, I also need a wheel set that can take some abuse.

So .... in reality (not theory) my sub 20 lb bike is now 25 lbs.

From a sample of N=2 .... I believe that bike fit and rotational mass
are far more important then static frame weight.

[josephr]

I'm a firm believer that its about momentum and maintaining it.... A lighter wheel is great in climbing and accelerating, but in holding speed and downhill, a heavier wheel would have an advantage. 29ers prove the point with the extended radiu

thats just my perspective...no scientific proof to back it up someone may have a different opinion but no matter what anyone else says, I'm right....nanny-nanny-boo-boo.

Joe

[William]

It's the engine, not the bike.

Sooner or later everyone comes to that conclusion.:)

I got there during my collegiate racing days when I counted grams like crazy. During the off-season a bunch of us were stripping our bikes down to get our frames painted in team colors. One of my tall team mates was the same height as me and rode a Klein Quantum (or Quantum pro) that was pretty much identical in size to my custom fillet brazed Serotta (basically a CSI). Holding up both frames the Serotta felt like a boat anchor compared to his aluminum Klein. I mean I was shocked at the difference in weight for two frames otherwise identical in size. Shocked I tell you!:) I also outweighed him by 25 to 30 pounds, and could smoke him on the climbs and beat him in the sprint...and he was no slouch on a bike.

It just drove home the point for me that among high end bikes, there isn't enough of a difference in weight to matter....the motor is the key. Better to loose a few pounds off the midsection than to worry too much about grams on the bike.









William

[Gummee]

I'm a wheel whore. There I said it. I've got 10-ish pairs of wheels hanging in the garage with a few more pairs of rims waiting to be built.

I've got anything from 24mm tubulars to 44mm carbon clinchers and lots in between. I'll break out the lower spoke count wheels for fast group rides. Break out the carbon wheels for races. ...but day-to-day riding? Pretty much always on your 'basic wheel.' In fact, I'm fixin to go ride a pair right after I get done typing this.

There's something to be said for durable. My favorite pair of wheels is my 501/571/2/Reflex Ceramic wheelset that was built for a pro buddy of mine 'back when.' I pulled the 501 rear hub out and substituted a 571/2 so I could use em, but otherwise, they're 20+ years old. Gotta love that. Hate that Shimano's gone 11! Grrr

M

[oldpotatoe]

On the hilly terrain around here, I'll take a wheel that will spin up faster any day of the week. That is usually - but not always - directly related to weight. On a flatter ride, maybe not so much of an effect. On the other hand, light wheels on an unresponsive frameset not so hot either. So, the answer, as usual is 'it depends'.....:rolleyes:

Well, 'feels' like it spins up faster' is mostly due to stiffness, most often due to it being carbon. Differing weights of rims effect energy differences to 'spin up' very little. Energy to 'accelerate' a bicycle is determined by the mass of the bike and rider, almost entirely.

[zap]

Light wheels-there is no magic here. The easier change in direction is fun but requires that little bit more while cruising.

Tires are a factor as well.

I like 1200-1400g aero wheel sets for general riding. Give me that and stiffness for those hard out of the saddle in the drops big ring short steep climbs and I'm happy. I just like how it feels.

Flat TT, give me something that's more aero and weight….well, whatever they say it is.

[tuscanyswe]

As you also mention i think its a good leg day.. I have days where my legs feel like they cant be bothered to pedal anything and everything about riding feels meh. Then i have days where my legs and general form feels incredible. These days can come with as little as a week apart or possibly less so its not about fitness. Its just one of those things that there is no real explanation for i guess. These days make a hell of a difference for me, more so than any wheelset or bike ever would.

They seem to be more common in the fall / winter than in the summer, maybe its partly psychology, i dunno.

[sevencyclist]

As I am getting older, now I seem to have the various considerations in the following order.

Safety
Comfort
Cost
Look
Weight
Speed

Disclaimer: I don't race for money, I participate in racing only for the sake of supporting the sport. I don't have a speedometer, and do not time myself on ride.

[martl]

I'm a firm believer that its about momentum and maintaining it.... A lighter wheel is great in climbing and accelerating, but in holding speed and downhill, a heavier wheel would have an advantage.
Hold your preferred "heavy" wheel at the axle with your left hand and spin it fast - typically, that reaches the rpm the wheel will have when riding at 35km/h. Now stop it with your right hand. The Energy you just transformed into a slightly warmer right hand is the energy the heavy wheel added to your "system" of rider + gear + bike (which will have 1/2 * m * v²) when riding. If you can do it without burning your hand, that is a strong hint that it wasn't much energy.

I dare say the wind drag of holding your head half an inch higher or lower has more effect.

Surprisingly, standard physics also apply for bike riders although some oldtimers will always try to convince you of the opposite ;)


What actually *is* noticeable is the agility a *very much* lighter wheel will give you when attacking on a sttep uphill. I have one of those 1 mile from my home on my training round, i often do it for fun at the round's end, and rolling into that steep section (16%) and attacking all-out in the middle of it like a madman is much easier with the Lightweights than the old Aero Shamals. If that actually is much faster i dare to doubt.

[OtayBW]

Well, 'feels' like it spins up faster' is mostly due to stiffness, most often due to it being carbon. Differing weights of rims effect energy differences to 'spin up' very little. Energy to 'accelerate' a bicycle is determined by the mass of the bike and rider, almost entirely.

No doubt about the stiffness factor, but then of course wheel weight also contributes pretty substantially to mass of the bike as well.

[oldpotatoe]

No doubt about the stiffness factor, but then of course wheel weight also contributes pretty substantially to mass of the bike as well.

But taken in total, bike and rider, 500 grams say, a 1200 gram wheelset and a 1700 gram one..on a 95,000+ gram rider and bike, it's means little.

[OtayBW]

But taken in total, bike and rider, 500 grams say, a 1200 gram wheelset and a 1700 gram one..on a 95,000+ gram rider and bike, it's means little.

I think the rider is a red herring here, Pete. It's a fixed quantity in comparing the performance of 2 wheelsets on any given bike...as is the frame. If you considered just the frame and wheelset, though, the difference between a 1200g and 1700g wheelset on a 16lb and 17lb bike, respectively, it would be >6%. For the wheels alone, the diff is >40% in weight. More importantly, the wheels roll and you have to consider inertia/dynamic performance, not necessarily static weight. That said, I'm guessing that aerodynamic profile may trump everything.

I sense that this discussion has probably been raked over the coals by physicists and engineers (of which I am neither), but the upshot is that if given the choice in an equal comparison, I believe that most folks would be able to feel the difference in wheel weight in terms of acceleration. I know I can when I swap out wheels on my bikes.

[Gummee]

I sense that this discussion has probably been raked over the coals by physicists and engineers (of which I am neither), but the upshot is that if given the choice in an equal comparison, I believe that most folks would be able to feel the difference in wheel weight in terms of acceleration. I know I can when I swap out wheels on my bikes.

Not being a math/physics guy myself, I wonder. Open Pros are what 490g. What's the lightest deeper section rim?

IOW Open Pro wheels don't have huge rim weights, they have more weight everywhere. Maybe that's what you're feeling?

M

[Ralph]

We all know physics don't lie. And lots of variables can matter. Especially wheel weight, tire suppleness, air pressures, etc.

But a 160 lb rider on a 20 lb bike (water bottles and seat bag) is still pedaling 180 lbs. Everything being equal....not many riders will be affected by a LB or so of weight difference. I know I can't tell any difference in performance when my water bottle is half empty....about a LB lighter than full. Or on a pair of slightly heavier wheels with good tires. I can tell a difference when air pressure is too low, or am on crappy non responsive tires. I think tires and air pressure are a huge factor.

[laupsi]

We all know physics don't lie. And lots of variables can matter. Especially wheel weight, tire suppleness, air pressures, etc.

But a 160 lb rider on a 20 lb bike (water bottles and seat bag) is still pedaling 180 lbs. Everything being equal....not many riders will be affected by a LB or so of weight difference. I know I can't tell any difference in performance when my water bottle is half empty....about a LB lighter than full. Or on a pair of slightly heavier wheels with good tires. I can tell a difference when air pressure is too low, or am on crappy non responsive tires. I think tires and air pressure are a huge factor.

right physics doesn't lie and physics says the rotating weight of the wheel matters much more when accelerating than does any other facet of the bike; except of course for the engine that drives it.

[oldpotatoe]

We all know physics don't lie. And lots of variables can matter. Especially wheel weight, tire suppleness, air pressures, etc.

But a 160 lb rider on a 20 lb bike (water bottles and seat bag) is still pedaling 180 lbs. Everything being equal....not many riders will be affected by a LB or so of weight difference. I know I can't tell any difference in performance when my water bottle is half empty....about a LB lighter than full. Or on a pair of slightly heavier wheels with good tires. I can tell a difference when air pressure is too low, or am on crappy non responsive tires. I think tires and air pressure are a huge factor.

My last post on this, water bottles, full empty, beginning of ride, end.

Water is 8 lbs. per gallon, 2 full water bottles vs 2 empty easily difference between 1200 gr wheelset and 2000 gr wheelset(2 pounds).

But so what, if the 'putbikegadgetgizmo' here means ya ride more, groovy

[thwart]

...on a 95,000+ gram rider and bike

Hey, wait a second.

I resent that… ;)

[FlashUNC]

A 13lb bike won't make my Jan Ullrich butt go any faster. Any may be more likely to break or leave me stranded by the roadside.

[mtechnica]

I'm not sure about lighter wheels actually 'spinning up' faster since when the rider is on the bike you are never just accelerating the wheel, but the entire mass of the bicycle and rider, since the tire isn't exceeding static friction.

One way to test this would be to rig a bike up on tracks so it stands upright, then put a fake rider mass on it, hold the cranks perfectly level but with a heavy weight attached to the forward crank arm (bolted into the pedal hole), release the weight, and use laser timing to measure the acceleration of the bicycle. 1.) Test with different wheels, 2.) add mass to the frame to compensate for the lighter and see if the results are the same, etc...

I think something like that could shed some light on whether the wheels allow you to accelerate faster or if it just feels faster. My gut instinct says wheel mass = bike mass in terms of measurable acceleration.

[redir]

If weight was meaningless then you would not notice a difference between a 30lbs Schwinn Le Tour or a 17 pound Cannondale. Does anyone here really think that is the case?

So really the argument comes down to 'a little bit of weight makes no difference.' And I would agree with that. But I have all kinds of bikes from big old vintage steel bikes to new Ti, AL and carbon and I can definitely tell the difference in weight.

imho light is always better but comfort trumps light at a certain point. When I started racing AL bikes, especially in cyclocross, I thought there was something wrong with me till I switched to a steel cross frame, a bit heavier but no more back issues and well worth it. Btu it was not ten pounds heavier ;-)

[benb]

I think there is a lot of placebo involved. Not everything you feel between a heavy steel bike and a super light carbon bike is you going faster, it's just that you're feeling other characteristics of the bike.

It's always helpful to play with analytic cycling..

2km climb of 10% grade...

For my body weight on a 25lb bike I'll be 60m behind myself on a 13lb bike if I put out an average of 250w.

But if I was on that 25lb bike and I put out just +20w I will beat the 250w me on the 13lb bike by 40m.

And that is a pretty darn extreme example, if you're not racing uphill it's really meaningless. If the 13lb bike forces you to compromise in just about any way on comfort/fit/ability to handle rough road, ability to brake (carbon rims/pads), etc.. those differences are going to disappear pretty fast.

Realistically.. who is comparing a 25lb bike against a 13lb bike. If you're talking 19lbs vs 16lbs or 500g difference in wheel weight it's just about meaningless other than feel if you're not racing a hill climb.

[phcollard]

Bike weight is important. Check out this very real world example (scroll to 1:55 if you are in a hurry) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7SGbHxJ9Y8

:banana:

[thwart]

Bike weight is important. Check out this very real world example (scroll to 1:55 if you are in a hurry) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7SGbHxJ9Y8

:banana:

Ah, en Francais, so difficult to appreciate all the discussion… but, even so… 30 kg bike vs 7 kg bike. :eek:

[CunegoFan]

Imo, anyone who is not a serious racer who expects better performance from a lighter bike or lighter wheels has missed the clue. It isn't about performance. It is about the fun while riding.
A lighter bike is more fun. Simple as that.

I agree. Sometimes I will be out riding and not having as much fun as I want. I then dump the contents of my seat tube 0.75L water bottle, my bike gets one and half pounds lighter, and suddenly riding becomes a lot more fun. It really is amazing.

;)

[Joachim]

Oh no, Dave Kirk told me a JKS won't hold me back. I am going to email him right now and ask if he can drill a few holes...make it lighter.

[velotrack]

Weight vs performance... SRAM vs Shimano? ;)

[aramis]

I agree. Sometimes I will be out riding and not having as much fun as I want. I then dump the contents of my seat tube 0.75L water bottle, my bike gets one and half pounds lighter, and suddenly riding becomes a lot more fun. It really is amazing.

;)

Hey, I notice the same thing!

I just think its funny how convinced people get that 3 oz make them have a sublime ride vs hating their life.

[Louis]

Bike weight is important. Check out this very real world example (scroll to 1:55 if you are in a hurry) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7SGbHxJ9Y8

Gilbert was a good sport. I think the postman is in better shape that most casual cyclists, so that made for a fun challenge - and it was a lot closer than I thought it would be.

[93KgBike]

My 93kg bike is not less fun than my 6kg bike.

In fact, none of my bikes are more fun to ride than the one that I'm riding.

[one60]

isn't one law of physics about not being able to destroy matter??

My last post on this, water bottles, full empty, beginning of ride, end.

Water is 8 lbs. per gallon, 2 full water bottles vs 2 empty easily difference between 1200 gr wheelset and 2000 gr wheelset(2 pounds).

But so what, if the 'putbikegadgetgizmo' here means ya ride more, groovy

[Ralph]

I need some Ti tools so I can ride faster.