strength training and stretching to prevent injury

[AngryScientist]

Thought i would post this here for some exposure and opinions/thoughts:

typically, year after year, after a good cycling season i take a bunch of time off, rush back into things and get an overuse injury of some kind, so:

what strength training or stretching program do you follow that specifically targets injury prevention? knees and muscles are key. i think if i begin the ramp up with some strength training to beef up the muscles that hold everything in alignment, i'll help to avoid injury early in the year.

thoughts?

[FlashUNC]

Squat, dead lift, leg press. Core work to keep everything in balance.

Yoga for stretching and said core work.

[Wesley37]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JCHUyzDWL._AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-30,22_AA300_SH20_OU15_.jpg

Core Advantage (http://velopress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sample_TDCA.pdf)

I have been doing workouts from this book for a couple of months now, I am a big fan.

[christian]

I try to alternate the following workouts along with 2x20 and 4x5 and 30/30s on-the-bike work.

Workout 1:
5x5 squats or overhead squats
5x5 bench press
5x5 inverted row
Bridges/Planks

Workout 2:
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead press
3x12 pullups
Bridges/Planks

I also like to do this yoga release: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQNqZMv1V0

[teleguy57]

For overall conditioning and good core strength I'm a big fan of kettlebell swings and turkish get ups. The latter particularly kicks my butt! I was doing squats and deadlifts, and have pretty much moved to these two instead and I think my body is better for it.

I will likely add in some one-legged deads again to help with balance as well as strength, and I've been practicing overhead squats as well. Still haven't moved beyond a piece of PVC pipe into any real weights, but at least I'm no longer losing my balance :)

Oh, and also a big fan of Kelly Starrett's work on mobility (http://www.mobilitywod.com/) (Google him on YouTube for good free videos). Much of it hurts like a son-of-a-gun, but it's a "hurts so good" result.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cREa2uxLL._SX258_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[MattTuck]

Nick,

What is "a bunch of time off"? Maintaining some cycling specific flexibility/strength/fitness is probably going to be the most efficient approach. If you do that, you'll be less likely to jump back in too fast, and might help to lessen the risk of an injury.

That said, the Danielson book is good (in fact some of the exercises are on youtube), the Supple Leopard videos are good, and strength training is good.

There's not substitute for riding the bike though, they just enhance it.

[weiwentg]

Squat, dead lift, leg press. Core work to keep everything in balance.

Yoga for stretching and said core work.

What he said minus leg press - don't squats and deadlifts cover that already, plus engage your core stabilizing muscles at the same time?

I also do a lot of upper body work. Keeps my posture good and keeps my shoulders from getting aches.

[firerescuefin]

What he said minus leg press - don't squats and deadlifts cover that already, plus engage your core stabilizing muscles at the same time?

I also do a lot of upper body work. Keeps my posture good and keeps my shoulders from getting aches.

Quite a few professional sports teams are getting away from squats and full dead lifts due to simultaneous shearing + compressive forces on the spine. They're subbing leg press and 3/4 deads in their place. Makes a lot of sense to me, as that's connective tissue that degrades/breaks down over time. I've worked one on one with Allison Westphal...can't say enough good about her and her ideas. Have never looked through the Supple Leopard stuff...thanks for posting that.

[FlashUNC]

What he said minus leg press - don't squats and deadlifts cover that already, plus engage your core stabilizing muscles at the same time?

I also do a lot of upper body work. Keeps my posture good and keeps my shoulders from getting aches.

I do the squats and deadlifts with relatively light weight for the reasons firerescuefin mentioned. Even do one set of squats with a yoga ball on the wall and a lighter medicine ball squeezed between ye old knees.

The leg press is more about that high weight, low rep muscle/power building.

[fiamme red]

typically, year after year, after a good cycling season i take a bunch of time off, rush back into things and get an overuse injury of some kind, so:The obvious answer is not to rush back into things.

"Doc, it hurts when I do this."
"Then stop doing it."

[Likes2ridefar]

somehow got this out there twice!

[Likes2ridefar]

Thought i would post this here for some exposure and opinions/thoughts:

typically, year after year, after a good cycling season i take a bunch of time off, rush back into things and get an overuse injury of some kind, so:

what strength training or stretching program do you follow that specifically targets injury prevention? knees and muscles are key. i think if i begin the ramp up with some strength training to beef up the muscles that hold everything in alignment, i'll help to avoid injury early in the year.

thoughts?

yoga works for me. but i never really take any time off since I ride to work every day. I still get aches and pains when I start riding way more though. usually foam roller and massage solves most everything.

if there ever was an off week, it's this one.

the billy's chocolate peanut butter brownie I just had for dessert was worth every calorie!

[MattTuck]

yoga works for me. but i never really take any time off since I ride to work every day. I still get aches and pains when I start riding way more though. usually foam roller and massage solves most everything.

if there ever was an off week, it's this one.

the billy's chocolate peanut butter brownie I just had for dessert was worth every calorie!

PM me the recipe? That sounds fantastic.

[54ny77]

during the winter months i focus on isometric exercise and nutrition, typically by eating low fat string cheese.

[PQJ]

There can be only one: yoga, ashtanga. The perfect workout, IMO.

[1X10]

+1 on the use of heavy 2H KB swings and TGU's....:hello:

I agree they can really catch up with you even if mixing in some winter base km's...

Only suggestion is practice form, form and more form!!

IMHO, if doing swings for endurance you really won't put on any bulk in case your worried...

TGU.s are just a good solid body tension movement!!!

[shovelhd]

When my racing season is over I go straight into JRA mode for a few weeks, followed by a couple of rest weeks. Offseason training starts with strength work. Gym stuff like planks and medicine ball incline bench sit ups, calf raises, curls, etc. coupled with big gear low cadence work on the trainer and lots of tempo.

[krismac23]

Yoga, Single leg body squats, box jumps, plank variations, single leg press. Mostly isolating strength in the legs one leg at a time. My coach and I have found it way more advantages. Also following the Aussie's and trying to match leg angle's and positions when doing weighted stuff

[ORMojo]

Yoga, Pilates, Tai Chi, Qi Gong, and Tabata are the preferences of myself and my wife to address flexibility, stretching and, to a certain extent, strength. My main strength work is just lots of weight work that I've honed on my own over the past 30 years. We have a semi-studio at home with equipment for all of the above.

If you didn't see it, this was a good thread across the hall: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/total-body-exercises-cyclist-32857.html

My oldest daughter swears by her rowing machine . . . but then she rowed at the NCAA varsity level.

[Splash]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JCHUyzDWL._AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-30,22_AA300_SH20_OU15_.jpg

Core Advantage (http://velopress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sample_TDCA.pdf)

I have been doing workouts from this book for a couple of months now, I am a big fan.

pages 26 - 94 are missing.

any chance of acquiring these missing pages?


splash

[firerescuefin]

Purchased Supple Leopard....Single best book on real fitness and taking care of your body I have ever read....by a long shot (and I have tons of fitness books).

Thanks for mentioning it here. You cannot spend 33 dollars (what I paid for new on Amazon) better.....period.

If you buy it, buy the hardcopy. It's a reference book you'll want to bookmark.


For overall conditioning and good core strength I'm a big fan of kettlebell swings and turkish get ups. The latter particularly kicks my butt! I was doing squats and deadlifts, and have pretty much moved to these two instead and I think my body is better for it.

I will likely add in some one-legged deads again to help with balance as well as strength, and I've been practicing overhead squats as well. Still haven't moved beyond a piece of PVC pipe into any real weights, but at least I'm no longer losing my balance :)

Oh, and also a big fan of Kelly Starrett's work on mobility (http://www.mobilitywod.com/) (Google him on YouTube for good free videos). Much of it hurts like a son-of-a-gun, but it's a "hurts so good" result.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cREa2uxLL._SX258_PJlook-inside-v2,TopRight,1,0_SH20_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[MattTuck]

Thanks Geoff. That's been on my radar for a while, any lessons in particular that are worth sharing?

[firerescuefin]

Thanks Geoff. That's been on my radar for a while, any lessons in particular that are worth sharing?

"Functional Movement" is almost as overused as "Core Strength" in fitness circles IMO. Lots of books and exercise progams throw the terms around and can do more harm than good. I've seen lots of folks get injured doing dysfunctional functional movements and core strength training.

He breaks down functional movements in intricate detail to include common flaws and restrictions (that are going to require some work...either on form or mobilizing restricted tissue) that are keeping you from moving functionally. His basic premise is to have you master proper functional movements, then increase load (aerobic, anaerobic, weight, resistance, etc) to challenge, build upon, and take to the next level (if so desired). He addresses real core strength and how to take it with you when operating in environments that aren't always ergonomically optimal.

The second half of the book is self treatment mobilizations that are broken into segments of the body. Pure Gold. Been dealing with a balky shoulder (more anoying than anything else) for 20 years that has been 95% resolved after working through 3 of the recommended mobilization for 3 days.

I can't say enough good things about the book.

Only downside (to some) is that it is very detailed/nuanced when breaking down movements. This is a plus to me.

[AngryScientist]

i'm sold, buying a copy now. thanks for the insight.

[oldpotatoe]

Thought i would post this here for some exposure and opinions/thoughts:

typically, year after year, after a good cycling season i take a bunch of time off, rush back into things and get an overuse injury of some kind, so:

what strength training or stretching program do you follow that specifically targets injury prevention? knees and muscles are key. i think if i begin the ramp up with some strength training to beef up the muscles that hold everything in alignment, i'll help to avoid injury early in the year.

thoughts?

Ride a fixie, not entirely kidding.

[11.4]

Everyone has their own method -- borne of habit or background training or actual need. I'd strongly suggest that if you want to read the most comprehensive body of literature on weightlifting in cycling, you go to www.fixedgearfever.com. It'll occupy you til racing season begins but you'll find more solid counsel from top racers and more of a scientific treatment than you'll find on the power forum or other sources.

What you'll see is that overwhelmingly there's experienced support for Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength." It's a book, a DVD, a couple related books, and classes he teaches around the country. Nothing funky about crossfit or new fads, just solid high-quality form. I'd also recommend Greg Everett's "Olympic Weightlifting" as the definitive book on Olympic lifting and a book that fills in all the gaps that Rip doesn't worry about discussing. Technique is slightly different between the two, basically reflecting the needs of Olympic versus weightlifting for athletic strength, but in all the important areas they are in sync.

I've coached riders over the years and watched them go through crossfit, kettle balls, plyometrics, sandbag training, yada yada yada. My two cents? If you're looking to improve your sprinting or climbing power over the winter, plyometrics teach your muscles to work with higher efficiency (usually you're only using 20-25% of your relevant muscle fibers, and only reaching 40-60% in a sprint up a steep hill). You have to be in shape from weight training, mobility training, etc. before attempting plyometrics or you can get yourself sidelined pretty quickly. But they also give you one of the most significant improvements for cycling.

Kettleballs are good for core training, and most riders need core training more than anything else. But then, they also use eccentric workouts that can make you more injury prone. Cycling is an up-and-down kind of exercise, one leg and then the other, so it's more efficient to strengthen your stability for that kind of exercise rather than twisting and eccentric workouts. Sandbags come and go as a fad but they are actually a pretty cool way to build core strength and also do many of the basic weightlifting moves. I recommend the sandbags at goruckgear.com, but there are other equally good ones out there as well. Just try hiking some long flights of stairs with 80 lbs of sand on your shoulders, or do Olympic snatches with your sandbag, etc. It's a cheap and unobtrusive tool you can have at home or in the trunk of your car.

Crossfit, for pure cycling training, is a joke. Pardon my bluntness. It's a class structure that you have to follow with others, it often preaches excessive weights and poor form without good reason. If it makes you work out more and get more fit, fine. But if you're going to put in that work, there are better and safer ways to do it, especially for cycling.

Mostly, go read fixedgearfever. The columns are written by more national and world champions in track cycling than you can imagine. It really is the best resource out there and it has the results to backstop it.

One last thing: Age. You're probably aware that once you get past 50 or so, you lose calcium at an atrociously fast rate. And your bones get brittle even if calcium loss is limited. So if you don't want spontaneous breaks and want to protect your shoulders, hips, knees, etc. in the event of a crash, weightlifting is the thing. Extensive results in exercise physiology and osteology have shown that if you don't actually lift resistive loads, you don't protect against bone problems. Swimming doesn't do it. Rowing doesn't. Frankly, cycling doesn't. You have to lift weight, one way or the other. The highest bone calcium levels are preserved when you lift weights. And if you build up your shoulder musculature and strengthen your rotator cuffs, you can save yourself a torn shoulder or a broken collarbone. It's an important issue to remember that elite athletes aren't really worrying about yet.

[AngryScientist]

thanks 11.4 - as usual, good advice.

[TomP]

Everyone has their own method -- borne of habit or background training or actual need. I'd strongly suggest that if you want to read the most comprehensive body of literature on weightlifting in cycling, you go to www.fixedgearfever.com. It'll occupy you til racing season begins but you'll find more solid counsel from top racers and more of a scientific treatment than you'll find on the power forum or other sources.

What you'll see is that overwhelmingly there's experienced support for Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength." It's a book, a DVD, a couple related books, and classes he teaches around the country. Nothing funky about crossfit or new fads, just solid high-quality form. I'd also recommend Greg Everett's "Olympic Weightlifting" as the definitive book on Olympic lifting and a book that fills in all the gaps that Rip doesn't worry about discussing. Technique is slightly different between the two, basically reflecting the needs of Olympic versus weightlifting for athletic strength, but in all the important areas they are in sync.

I've coached riders over the years and watched them go through crossfit, kettle balls, plyometrics, sandbag training, yada yada yada. My two cents? If you're looking to improve your sprinting or climbing power over the winter, plyometrics teach your muscles to work with higher efficiency (usually you're only using 20-25% of your relevant muscle fibers, and only reaching 40-60% in a sprint up a steep hill). You have to be in shape from weight training, mobility training, etc. before attempting plyometrics or you can get yourself sidelined pretty quickly. But they also give you one of the most significant improvements for cycling.

Kettleballs are good for core training, and most riders need core training more than anything else. But then, they also use eccentric workouts that can make you more injury prone. Cycling is an up-and-down kind of exercise, one leg and then the other, so it's more efficient to strengthen your stability for that kind of exercise rather than twisting and eccentric workouts. Sandbags come and go as a fad but they are actually a pretty cool way to build core strength and also do many of the basic weightlifting moves. I recommend the sandbags at goruckgear.com, but there are other equally good ones out there as well. Just try hiking some long flights of stairs with 80 lbs of sand on your shoulders, or do Olympic snatches with your sandbag, etc. It's a cheap and unobtrusive tool you can have at home or in the trunk of your car.

Crossfit, for pure cycling training, is a joke. Pardon my bluntness. It's a class structure that you have to follow with others, it often preaches excessive weights and poor form without good reason. If it makes you work out more and get more fit, fine. But if you're going to put in that work, there are better and safer ways to do it, especially for cycling.

Mostly, go read fixedgearfever. The columns are written by more national and world champions in track cycling than you can imagine. It really is the best resource out there and it has the results to backstop it.

One last thing: Age. You're probably aware that once you get past 50 or so, you lose calcium at an atrociously fast rate. And your bones get brittle even if calcium loss is limited. So if you don't want spontaneous breaks and want to protect your shoulders, hips, knees, etc. in the event of a crash, weightlifting is the thing. Extensive results in exercise physiology and osteology have shown that if you don't actually lift resistive loads, you don't protect against bone problems. Swimming doesn't do it. Rowing doesn't. Frankly, cycling doesn't. You have to lift weight, one way or the other. The highest bone calcium levels are preserved when you lift weights. And if you build up your shoulder musculature and strengthen your rotator cuffs, you can save yourself a torn shoulder or a broken collarbone. It's an important issue to remember that elite athletes aren't really worrying about yet.

I've lifted since I was 12 and am now 57. Used to do gymnastics. Still run, lift and ride year round.

I had heard good things about Crossfit and decided to try it. Maybe I got lucky, but where I go the group size is small and the coaches are quite good. I used to powerlift. They are very focused on good form, not overdoing the weight and controlled movements. Just a month in, but so far I like it.

[jmeloy]

Gang, lots of good stuff here. I'll be 60 next September and have never done lifting yoga, etc. My travel is a problem but I need to get going on something. No gear on hand except for a 25 lb kettle bell and a couple of 80 pound sand bags normally used in the pickup in the winter.

My riding seems to have leveled off and I struggle to add distance and speed year over year. I'm sure part of that is just the fact of aging. Both knees are bad and will likely be replaced in 2-4 years. That said, they give me no problem riding.

So, I need some help. I can grab some gear if/as needed. I need to get something started to maintain and improve my fitness going forward. The posts I read on "dead lifts", humping 80 pound sand bags, etc. just ain't going to work with the way the knees are. Can the group guide me into an initial plan that I can build upon over time? Should I start with planks and related and work towards some lifting? Yoga from the start?

Voracious reader but not typically a detail guy. Prefer short and illustrative probably over the described very deep details described above. But open minded.

Make me your "class project" for the semester?? I need help!!!

[jmeloy]

P.S. Cannot believe I just said I'll be 60 in 9 months, damn.

[nooneline]

This is my first year lifting weights.

I am mostly doing squats.

I f'ing love them.

[teleguy57]

P.S. Cannot believe I just said I'll be 60 in 9 months, damn.

I have you beat by 4 months. Same reaction.

I've been in the gym for a while, but seem to have challenges not tweaking something from time to time. Currently shoulder and elbow. Dang, it takes longer and longer to come back from those nagging buggers....

Think I need more of the Danielson-type work in addition to the weights.

[jmeloy]

Teleguy, I hear ya on recovery time. Bought the Danielson book just now as a start.

[cachagua]

I f'ing love [squats]...

All the other exercises are . . . just exercises. Squats are a religion.

[teleguy57]

All the other exercises are . . . just exercises. Squats are a religion.

Squats are great. For many of us, dead lifts are even more so.

[laupsi]

This is my first year lifting weights.

I am mostly doing squats.

I f'ing love them.

if you love squats try lunges too, more bang for the buck but be careful of your form. yes you can do lunges w/free weights. fatigue sets in much quicker on lunges.

[PQJ]

One last thing: Age. You're probably aware that once you get past 50 or so, you lose calcium at an atrociously fast rate. And your bones get brittle even if calcium loss is limited. So if you don't want spontaneous breaks and want to protect your shoulders, hips, knees, etc. in the event of a crash, weightlifting is the thing. Extensive results in exercise physiology and osteology have shown that if you don't actually lift resistive loads, you don't protect against bone problems. Swimming doesn't do it. Rowing doesn't. Frankly, cycling doesn't. You have to lift weight, one way or the other. The highest bone calcium levels are preserved when you lift weights. And if you build up your shoulder musculature and strengthen your rotator cuffs, you can save yourself a torn shoulder or a broken collarbone. It's an important issue to remember that elite athletes aren't really worrying about yet.

Great post but I snipped in the interest of brevity.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on yoga (Ashtanga specifically, of which 'power yoga' is a (some would say bastardized) form) as a substitute for weightlifting. I've built muscle mass and gained quite a bit of definition in the 18 months I've been doing it. My yoga instructor seems to think it (Ashtanga) could and should replace everything, including aerobic activity. I wouldn't go that far and his opinion isn't exactly objective, but there is a fair bit of load bearing/resistive activity in the series.

[11.4]

P.S. Cannot believe I just said I'll be 60 in 9 months, damn.

Hah. Just beating you by a few months.

It's the age at which you can officially let all the younger riders beat you in a team ride sprint.

[christian]

All the other exercises are . . . just exercises. Squats are a religion.Overhead squats are enlightenment.

[11.4]

I have you beat by 4 months. Same reaction.

I've been in the gym for a while, but seem to have challenges not tweaking something from time to time. Currently shoulder and elbow. Dang, it takes longer and longer to come back from those nagging buggers....

Think I need more of the Danielson-type work in addition to the weights.

The thing about free weights in comparison to Cybex machines and the like is that they build all the peripheral musculature, tendons, etc. that you need to be able to do those lifts without those small peripheral injuries. Don't push the weights hard at first and be sure you get form down right. I'd always refer you to Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" book as a guide to good form. And get some weightlifting shoes now -- real ones with heels. For high-level Olympic lifters they can actually increase your lifts, but for most people their main attribute is that they give you so much more stability -- and losing stability is what causes those small injuries half the time.

Do weights year-round for the first year and keep doing them regularly through the summer. You'll build increased stability and strength in your auxiliary muscles so you can then work harder on the primary cycling muscles. Trying to do too many things may avoid boredom but doesn't necessarily work as well unless you spend your day working out. Keep it simple. Muscle physiology yields more hypertrophy with more rep of lower weights, which isn't really productive for cycling; if you do fewer reps at closer to max weight, you'll build strength without adding as much weight. Everyone is a bit different but for cycling you're better off doing a harder shorter workout. Don't try to use weights for aerobic benefit or you'll just build a lot of muscle mass and not improve your cycling much. You can do a high-weight workout in under an hour and a summer-time maintenance workout in half of that. Don't do the high-weight workout after an aerobic workout -- you want to be working near the limit of your muscles if you want to train greater strength, not at 70% because you used that 30% up in a hard training ride. Your muscles are pretty dumb -- they train exactly for what you're doing in a workout so if you don't do higher weights you won't have much higher power and if you teach them to stop at 70% they will never even give you 100% of what your existing muscles are capable of.

[laupsi]

The thing about free weights in comparison to Cybex machines and the like is that they build all the peripheral musculature, tendons, etc. that you need to be able to do those lifts without those small peripheral injuries. Don't push the weights hard at first and be sure you get form down right. I'd always refer you to Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" book as a guide to good form. And get some weightlifting shoes now -- real ones with heels. For high-level Olympic lifters they can actually increase your lifts, but for most people their main attribute is that they give you so much more stability -- and losing stability is what causes those small injuries half the time.

Do weights year-round for the first year and keep doing them regularly through the summer. You'll build increased stability and strength in your auxiliary muscles so you can then work harder on the primary cycling muscles. Trying to do too many things may avoid boredom but doesn't necessarily work as well unless you spend your day working out. Keep it simple. Muscle physiology yields more hypertrophy with more rep of lower weights, which isn't really productive for cycling; if you do fewer reps at closer to max weight, you'll build strength without adding as much weight. Everyone is a bit different but for cycling you're better off doing a harder shorter workout. Don't try to use weights for aerobic benefit or you'll just build a lot of muscle mass and not improve your cycling much. You can do a high-weight workout in under an hour and a summer-time maintenance workout in half of that. Don't do the high-weight workout after an aerobic workout -- you want to be working near the limit of your muscles if you want to train greater strength, not at 70% because you used that 30% up in a hard training ride. Your muscles are pretty dumb -- they train exactly for what you're doing in a workout so if you don't do higher weights you won't have much higher power and if you teach them to stop at 70% they will never even give you 100% of what your existing muscles are capable of.

interesting and I guess I have it all wrong. I always thought doing high reps, 15 or more, w/lower weights; example 110 lbs for squatting/lunging was more akin to cycling strength than say doing 150 lbs for 8 reps. thanks for the info.

[11.4]

Great post but I snipped in the interest of brevity.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on yoga (Ashtanga specifically, of which 'power yoga' is a (some would say bastardized) form) as a substitute for weightlifting. I've built muscle mass and gained quite a bit of definition in the 18 months I've been doing it. My yoga instructor seems to think it (Ashtanga) could and should replace everything, including aerobic activity. I wouldn't go that far and his opinion isn't exactly objective, but there is a fair bit of load bearing/resistive activity in the series.

I've done a variety of different kinds of yoga and still rely on yoga for a lot of stretching, flexibility, and core development. I don't think you can substitute for weights if you're trying to improve power on a bike. The idea behind power yoga is that it gives you more strength while moving your own body, but on a bike, you can leverage that strength quite a bit if you have the power to deploy -- and that comes down to weights and potentially some plyometrics. I'd agree you can build muscle mass and definition, but it's really not the reason I'd do it. I find that Iyengar's yoga has been the most useful for me for developing flexibility, but to everyone their own.

Also, yoga can be particularly useful after a crash or a workout injury.

Besides looking at how you're riding (especially easy to assess if you're racing actively), you can do some basic plyometric tests to see what your muscle response times look like. Remember that if you're riding 90-100 rpm cadences, you're effectively having to recruit fast twitch muscles -- your body may only be using 20-30% of them in easy riding, but it's still what was traditionally defined as a fast-twitch response (those definitions are pretty meaningless with today's exercise kinesiology). Plyometrics doesn't necessarily increase strength but increases the efficiency with which you recruit those muscles. The best single test (and the best, though most stringent one) is jumping from a standing start onto an elevated platform or box. Anybody can jump onto a 12 inch box. Any decent rider should be able to do 24 inches. If you're fit and race, 36 inches should be a decent target. Elite sprinters can do 42-48 inches, sometimes more. A bunch of frogs, if you ask me, amusing since some of the best these days are also French. (And note that I'm French by background and also a sprinter.) You can hurt yourself if you aren't really conditioned to the extreme and rapid effort, so be careful. And when you jump, you need to really lift your whole body weight to the height of the platform, not just jump half way, bring your knees up to get your feet on the platform, and then straighten up. Don't worry about jumping down -- it just injures you. I'll even have an intermediate box to step down easily because a big step down can cause a fluke injury, especially after a real maximum jump.

Hope that helps.

[11.4]

Overhead squats are enlightenment.

And a clean is pure nirvana for cyclist. After building strength with squats and dead lifts, and adding in a few varieties like Zerchers, the clean is what integrates it all into a lift that encompasses the needs of power on a bike. It's a lot safer than any of the overhead workouts like a snatch or the overhead squat -- if you're weightlifting for cycling, there's not much need to be lifting above your head. And for the geezers on this thread, overheads and snatches are good for strengthening the upper back and the muscles surrounding the collarbone, but you can also do that in a more isolating way that doesn't risk damaging your back. Almost every injury I've had weightlifting has come from overhead lifting.

[11.4]

interesting and I guess I have it all wrong. I always thought doing high reps, 15 or more, w/lower weights; example 110 lbs for squatting/lunging was more akin to cycling strength than say doing 150 lbs for 8 reps. thanks for the info.

It's just new understanding of muscle physiology from the last twenty years or so. The old stuff we grew up with was simply wrong. (What's the last time you've heard anyone preaching fahrtlek?) Put most of that stuff on the shelf along with most of the bike fitting and training advice in the old CONI manual.

You won't suffer by doing the work you did, and it may actually give you more muscle bulk and/or definition, but you're already doing that kind of workout while you're on the bike. The idea here is to increase your maximum power so that if you're only using a fraction of it while riding, it's still a lower fraction and a higher power output.

[christian]

Cleans are a great exercise for building strength, but I find that a regular diet of overhead squats keeps my lower back happy - if I stop doing them, I often get nagging SI joints - tight quads and hammies like many other desk-bound cyclists.

[rugbysecondrow]

And a clean is pure nirvana for cyclist. After building strength with squats and dead lifts, and adding in a few varieties like Zerchers, the clean is what integrates it all into a lift that encompasses the needs of power on a bike. It's a lot safer than any of the overhead workouts like a snatch or the overhead squat -- if you're weightlifting for cycling, there's not much need to be lifting above your head. And for the geezers on this thread, overheads and snatches are good for strengthening the upper back and the muscles surrounding the collarbone, but you can also do that in a more isolating way that doesn't risk damaging your back. Almost every injury I've had weightlifting has come from overhead lifting.

I took an 8 week Olympic weightlifting class with a local Olympian and Olympic runner up, and for the whole session, I worked on snatch and clean and jerk. For me, I like the over head stuff as well as bringing the weight to the front rack position. Being able to integrate the squat into both is HUGE as you really get the core working. For this reason, I really like the overhead movements. You really engage your full core for success as well as engaging your back and lat muscles. Proper mobility work (hips and shoulders) is key to success as well.

Like Christian said, I love the Overhead Squat. Being able to get your whole body to respond properly in a deliberate and proper way, well it is just a good feeling. It takes a while to get it feeling right, but there are few movements as beneficial to the whole body as the OVHS.

Anyway, go slow, use proper form, and do worry about weight or PRs. Stick with technique and the rest will follow.

I love the book "Becoming a Supple Leopard", recommended to me by a USAT Coach, and it is a wealth of info. I have been working with my mobility a lot lately, here is my trove of goodies.

[Liv2RideHard]

Weight Training for Cyclists. Google it and buy it. I don't think it has been mentioned here yet unless I missed it. Excellent resource and I use it exclusively. It has made me much stronger and more limber. Seriously, I really recommend it.

[jscottyk]

...And for the geezers on this thread, overheads and snatches are good for strengthening the upper back and the muscles surrounding the collarbone, but you can also do that in a more isolating way that doesn't risk damaging your back. Almost every injury I've had weightlifting has come from overhead lifting.

11.4, can you say more about the other lifts you have in mind that are less risky than overhead squats & snatches for strengthening the upper back and the muscles surrounding the collarbone?

After spending about a year learning proper technique and another year of doing them, one of the primary benefits I found in overhead squats & snatches was increased thoracic mobility. This improved range of movement translated directly to the bike and allowed me to drop into the drops properly, position my hips correctly, and properly engage my hamstring and glutes in the pedal stroke.

However, I did have a couple of nagging shoulder impingements that required attention along the way. In the end, I found I got almost all the above mentioned benefit from just doing the overhead squats and as a result rarely do full snatches. Occasionally I do power snatch, snatch pulls from the floor and from the blocks. Also KB snatch is much less risky than the barbell snatch.

All that said, I love a proper snatch. (Yes, I said that...LOL). It's beautiful movement and cannot be done without proper technique.

[jscottyk]

Like Christian said, I love the Overhead Squat. Being able to get your whole body to respond properly in a deliberate and proper way, well it is just a good feeling. It takes a while to get it feeling right, but there are few movements as beneficial to the whole body as the OVHS.

Anyway, go slow, use proper form, and do worry about weight or PRs. Stick with technique and the rest will follow.

.

^^

Keeping the weight overhead on properly engaged shoulders, keeping everything aligned, and executing a proper squat is pretty darn cool!

[jscottyk]

The best single test (and the best, though most stringent one) is jumping from a standing start onto an elevated platform or box. Anybody can jump onto a 12 inch box. Any decent rider should be able to do 24 inches. If you're fit and race, 36 inches should be a decent target. Elite sprinters can do 42-48 inches, sometimes more. A bunch of frogs, if you ask me, amusing since some of the best these days are also French. (And note that I'm French by background and also a sprinter.) You can hurt yourself if you aren't really conditioned to the extreme and rapid effort, so be careful. And when you jump, you need to really lift your whole body weight to the height of the platform, not just jump half way, bring your knees up to get your feet on the platform, and then straighten up. Don't worry about jumping down -- it just injures you. I'll even have an intermediate box to step down easily because a big step down can cause a fluke injury, especially after a real maximum jump.


The first workout I did in a Olympic Weightlifting gym, the owner (former world class lifter Oleg Kechko) had me do box jumps. I easily did 24", 36" and eventually 40". He looked at my coach and in an awesome Belarusian accent said, "He can train here."

Box jumps are a great training tool. Also, don't forget about standing long jumps.

[fiamme red]

11.4, can you say more about the other lifts you have in mind that are less risky than overhead squats & snatches for strengthening the upper back and the muscles surrounding the collarbone?Pull-ups (or pull-downs on a machine) for the upper back and overhead presses for the shoulders. Neither overhead squats nor snatches would do much for these muscles.

[fiamme red]

What you'll see is that overwhelmingly there's experienced support for Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength." It's a book, a DVD, a couple related books, and classes he teaches around the country. Nothing funky about crossfit or new fads, just solid high-quality form. I'd also recommend Greg Everett's "Olympic Weightlifting" as the definitive book on Olympic lifting and a book that fills in all the gaps that Rip doesn't worry about discussing. Technique is slightly different between the two, basically reflecting the needs of Olympic versus weightlifting for athletic strength, but in all the important areas they are in sync.I think you meant powerlifting vs. Olympic weightlifting.

I've never read Rippetoe's book, but he looks and talks like a drunken Neanderthal. Here's an ignorant rant about cyclists not being athletes:

http://vimeo.com/13628227 (warning: language NSFW)

[jscottyk]

I think you meant powerlifting vs. Olympic weightlifting.

I've never read Rippetoe's book, but he looks and talks like a drunken Neanderthal. Here's an ignorant rant about cyclists not being athletes:

http://vimeo.com/13628227 (warning: language NSFW)

Rippetoe is currently considered one of the countries foremost experts in strength training. Both power lifting and olympic lifts. And yes, he is very outspoken. Honestly though, I don't give a flip about what he thinks about cycling or cyclist. That's not what I look to him for.

The critique he makes of crossfit in this article is scathing, and in my opinion, spot on.
CrossFit: The Good, Bad, and the Ugly (http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad-and-the-ugly)

[jscottyk]

Pull-ups (or pull-downs on a machine) for the upper back and overhead presses for the shoulders. Neither overhead squats nor snatches would do much for these muscles.

Yes, I'm a big fan of both.

One thing to note though on pull-ups is MANY are never coached on proper form and consequently pull mostly with their shoulders and create some nasty imbalances that lead to many problems.

[fiamme red]

Rippetoe is currently considered one of the countries foremost experts in strength training. Both power lifting and olympic lifts. And yes, he is very outspoken. Honestly though, I don't give a flip about what he thinks about cycling or cyclist. That's not what I look to him for.

The critique he makes of crossfit in this article is scathing, and in my opinion, spot on.
CrossFit: The Good, Bad, and the Ugly (http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad-and-the-ugly)Rippetoe has little to no experience with Olympic weightlifting, so I don't think he can be a foremost expert in it.

Although Rippetoe criticizes Crossfit now, he was formerly affiliated with it and was paid for that affiliation.

[rugbysecondrow]

Rippetoe has little to no experience with Olympic weightlifting, so I don't think he can be a foremost expert in it.

Although Rippetoe criticizes Crossfit now, he was formerly affiliated with it and was paid for that affiliation.

Crossfit 4 years ago is quite different than Crossfit now. Frankly, there ought to be a distinction between crossfit and Crossfit...former is a style of fitness programming, the other is a business.

I enjoy crossfit, I enjoy Crossfit, I enjoy cycling, triathlons, olympic lifting etc...there is a place in an active persons life for all of these interests. The key successes I, and others, have gained from crossfit, strong core, explosive fitness, improved hip flexor strength, transfer to cycling, running, swimming...pretty much any physical activity. These ought weigh the other physical improvements I could name.

I like what Mark wrote though, crossfit is good, but just like any activity, the individual has to own what they do and develop, in conjunction, their own understanding, knowledge base etc.

[dogdriver]

Just ordered "Supple Leopard" (or, in my case, Crawling Sloth). Thanks for the recommendation!

[teleguy57]

Just ordered "Supple Leopard" (or, in my case, Crawling Sloth). Thanks for the recommendation!

Finally a term that describes me!

[ceolwulf]

If there is a "Fossilized Tortoise" version I shall have to purchase.

[11.4]

Rippetoe is less a former competitor and more a good coach. If you look at the lifters he's coached, both Olympic and power, you'd give him a lot more respect. In the track cycling world, he's coached a number of the best. He has a big mouth but when you look at the methodology he coaches, he's spot on.

[Splash]

And get some weightlifting shoes now -- real ones with heels. For high-level Olympic lifters they can actually increase your lifts, but for most people their main attribute is that they give you so much more stability -- and losing stability is what causes those small injuries half the time.


OK - I'm in!

What brand weightlifting shoes are recommended here?

besides heels, what other attributes are needed for quality weightlifting shoes - so that i know what to look for when buying them in a shop ?

Splash

[11.4]

OK - I'm in!

What brand weightlifting shoes are recommended here?

besides heels, what other attributes are needed for quality weightlifting shoes - so that i know what to look for when buying them in a shop ?

Splash

Weightlifters are an incredibly cheap bunch and their shoes show it. When you see how many serious weightlifters lift in Converses, you get the point. Dedicated weightlifting shoes tend to be flimsy and junky.

The best are the Adidas and if they fit you, they would be my top pick. Go to www.dynamic-eleiko.com. The guy who runs it (and who answers the phone) is really good and can talk you through fit (he's outside Tacoma, WA if you happen to be close enough to drop in). I have the Adistars, which were the top shoes for the 2008 Olympics, and would get them again. They have tough white leather uppers with a little bit of ventilation, a rigid mid sole, a hardwood elevated heel, and a very tacky clear rubber outer sole. Like most weightlifting shoes they are lace-ups with a velcro strap over the arch -- some people seem to tear the strap but you can have a cobbler do a much better one if you actually do tear them, but mostly I think it's people just mistreating them. These shoes are totally stable in the heel (heck, it's a solid block of rock maple), the sole doesn't slip or move at all, even on sweaty mats, and the uppers are tough enough so you don't tear out or slip. The heel is crucial -- your lifts should be over your heel and you want your foot to be absolutely stable there. Anyway, the Adistars are now on sale but in plentiful supply and are amazing shoes. The only drawbacks are that they don't have as much ventilation as other shoes and that the newer shoes are a bit lighter due to plastic heels -- but seriously, we're weightlifting here, so do a couple extra ounces in the heels really matter? The plastic heels tend to crack and also the glues seem to separate on them more easily (something you think the shoe geniuses could figure out).

Most athletic shoe brands have a weightlifting shoe (Nike, Saucony, ASICS, and so on), but I'd suggest you consider them only if the Adidas' don't fit you. There are also Pendlays, made custom for Pendlay Fitness -- inexpensive but they do come in a hugely wide option if you have feet that make you want to quack when you walk. A lot of lifting shoes are on closeout on eBay and you may find an inexpensive pair there, but again, for all the time you're devoting in the gym, if you can just spend the money and do it right.

Sometimes you have to customize a shoe to make it work for you. The arch straps tend to be in the wrong places for many people, so I've seen good lifters just have a loop of two-inch-wide velcro that they loop right under the sole in front of the heel and up over the top. It sounds funky but it works really well without creating too much localized pressure. I find the Adistars are stable enough that I don't really need the strap, period, but a home-brew strap is a good way to improve on a shoe that otherwise has too weak an upper. As for the heel, there's nothing that substitutes for rigidity. Don't get any shoe that has a compressible heel. And as for the outer sole, I resoled a pair once with some ultra-sticky climbing shoe soles. They helped in a gym with hardwood floors and lots of perspiration drops that made things slick, but otherwise didn't do much else for me -- and the Adistars did better.

Otherwise, you shouldn't need equipment. I don't recommend belts, knee wraps, or straps. You should learn to lift without any of these crutches, and for cycling -- even power track events -- you don't need to go to the weights where that kind of thing is really necessary. I don't like to have music and don't encourage it because you want to be very aware of your surroundings, especially with higher weights -- I had an idiot bump one end of the bar as I was doing a really heavy lift and only avoided an accident and an injury because I heard him coming. I still managed a big divot in the floor from 340 lbs coming off my shoulders.

But shoes are the big thing. You'll be surprised how solid you'll feel and how much less you'll be feeling parts of your body shifting out of position as you lift. They increase the amount you can lift a bit, but mostly they just keep you from injuring yourself so you can build to higher lifts.

[jmeloy]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JCHUyzDWL._AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-30,22_AA300_SH20_OU15_.jpg

Core Advantage (http://velopress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sample_TDCA.pdf)

I have been doing workouts from this book for a couple of months now, I am a big fan.

Decided to start here and work my way forward. A couple of days in. If you've used it, help me a bit on tempo? Book speaks of holding for 5 seconds, etc., but the recommended tempo for most actions early on are 2/2 or 3/3. Seems fast for a couple of the stretches.

[rugbysecondrow]

OK - I'm in!

What brand weightlifting shoes are recommended here?

besides heels, what other attributes are needed for quality weightlifting shoes - so that i know what to look for when buying them in a shop ?

Splash


I am a fan of Adidas Samba shoes. They are not lifters, but they are stable, flat and readily available. They would be enough for you at first to learn the movements, learn proper form technique before adding any real weight to the scenario. For me, I only really use lifters if I am lifting heavy weight, otherwise I wear Sambas.

Find a class or some USAW instruction. There are small clubs all around where you might be able to get some proper training and work in. Also, there is an ap call Coach's Eye which is great for watching your form and correcting mistakes. It allows you to watch a video and do a frame by frame analysis.

I have only been doing Olympic lifts for the last 16 months, but I have learned something simple but very humbling. Doing them right can be the best things for your body. Doing them wrong can be the worst thing for your body. This is magnified as your apply more weight. I say this not to scare you but to reinforce the need for patience, training and practice.

Cheers

[MattTuck]

One comment about "Becoming a Supple Leopard", as I was looking it over earlier tonight. It has no index. A reference book without an index is one of my pet peeves.

[xeladragon]

Best shoes for casual weightlifting is anything minimalist. You want good ankle stability. But I do have weightlifting shoes too (Nike Romaleos). The increased heel-to-toe drop helps for some lifts if you're lacking mobility in the ankles or hips.

[rugbysecondrow]

One comment about "Becoming a Supple Leopard", as I was looking it over earlier tonight. It has no index. A reference book without an index is one of my pet peeves.

That is true I suppose, but the table of contents is pretty thorough and a glossary. If you are serious about mobility, I would look past that peeve. :)

Your superfriend,

Paul

[MattTuck]

That is true I suppose, but the table of contents is pretty thorough. If you are serious about mobility, I would look past that peeve. :)

I bought the book! So, yes easy to look past the pet peeve, and the way it is organized, I don't think it is a deal breaker or anything... but my first interaction with the book tonight, after reading the introduction last night, was to try to look up "hamstring" in the index as that is a range of motion problem area for me... No index, turned to T.O.C. and found it in about 30 seconds. You're right that the T.O.C. is pretty good.

Still, a reference book that doesn't have an index isn't taking itself seriously :)

[Puget Pounder]

Some good points in this thread. Just want to throw in some of my notes.

Most of my workout is centered around the clean and jerk/snatch with incline press, squat (front and back), and deadlifts (romanian and full) worked in. Nowadays, I am in medical school so my time on the bike is severely limited. I lift because it's the best bang for my buck. So I'd probably consider myself a weightlifter first and a biker second.

Most cyclists tend to be weak/tight in the hams. Romanian deadlifts can really isolate your work out to the hams.

I don't do flat bench anymore because it builds mass in a weird way on your pecs. Hell, if weren't doing it for aesthetics, I would probably cut out bench altogether. The incline press allows for recruitment of shoulder muscles along with pecs and builds a nice "top shelf" that people seem to like.

[Splash]

But shoes are the big thing. You'll be surprised how solid you'll feel and how much less you'll be feeling parts of your body shifting out of position as you lift. They increase the amount you can lift a bit, but mostly they just keep you from injuring yourself so you can build to higher lifts.

thanks buddy.

i just bought these shoes.

your'e a great salesman :-)

appreciate your help

http://www.ironedge.com.au/store/nike-romaleos-2-weightlifting-shoes-black.html

now to focus on safety, technique, muscle isolation/recruitment and max strength in training for a 120km road race in july.

i will also undertake swimming.


splash

[FritzWhite]

Def enjoy the benefits of weight lifting, especially for core strength. I like training vids by Scooby1961 and Elliot Hulse

[rugbysecondrow]

Also look up Kendrick Farris or Cara Heads, they are both Olympians but also do training for USAW and have some great resource videos you can see. If you are in the DC area, Cara Heads does coaching in South Arlington and she is a great coach, I learned quite a bit when she coached me this fall and I plan on going back again this spring. She has 6 week long classes as well as seminars. She is used to working with elite lifters as well as more novice and beginner folks who just want to get stronger and more fit. She is a great ambassador for the sport.

http://www.chfitnessandperformance.com/

Cheers,

Paul

[rugbysecondrow]

thanks buddy.

i just bought these shoes.

your'e a great salesman :-)

appreciate your help

http://www.ironedge.com.au/store/nike-romaleos-2-weightlifting-shoes-black.html

now to focus on safety, technique, muscle isolation/recruitment and max strength in training for a 120km road race in july.

i will also undertake swimming.


splash


My man just jumped in with both feet. Romaleos...good on you.

Cheers!

Paul

[fiamme red]

now to focus on safety, technique, muscle isolation/recruitment and max strength in training for a 120km road race in july.

i will also undertake swimming.Weightlifting and swimming may be good things to pursue in themselves, but they won't help you to train for a 120 km road race. Ride your bike.

[zap]

Some are fortunate to have really solid knees. But if you don't or are concerned…..

….in addition to proper technique, one important matter to take into account, don't go past 90 when doing squats, lunges, knee lifts etc. if injury prevention is at the top of your list.

I know many weight lifters think this is a bunch of baloney, but the shear on the patellar tendon increases significantly the greater the angle. If you have OSD (like I do) take it from me, be very very careful. If you are still doing weights when your cycling mileage ramps up with warming weather, cut back on the amount of leg weights. I failed to do that one year and tore my tendon…..my Wintergreen Ascent time that year was horrid due to the down time.

Don't get me wrong, weight lifting is huge when it comes to building power. I've increased the number of day's (and weight) I'm lifting this winter and I'm noticing the improvement. But I'm being very careful as I want to improve my speed on the bike and a torn tendon defeats all that in a hurry.

[Splash]

thanks boys.

fiamme red - i ride 45mins each week day already, and 3 hours each saturday.

i need to build up more strength.

zap - what is osd? when you say "90", do you mean 90lbs or 90kg?

splash

[zap]

zap - what is osd? when you say "90", do you mean 90lbs or 90kg?

splash

Osgood Schlatter-bump below the kneecap where the patellar tendon attaches to the bone. This problem I have has really limited my 20 minutes interval's in the past. Putting a lot of focus on hamstring strength & stretching and rolling (foam roller) the crap out of the quads.

90 refers to degrees.

[Splash]

thanks zap. osd sounds nasty - good luck.

All - what are the primary cycling muscles?

splash

[FritzWhite]

Do any of you wrap when you lift? Been considering wrapping as a little insurance during weight training.

I think the main cycling leg muscles are quads, hamstrings, calves, and hip flexors. Idk, maybe there are a couple smaller ones used. Good to have a strong core (abs, lower back and obliques) too.

It's not always ideal to only do weight training which ONLY mimics specific patterns of movement. Exercising muscles you don't normally use during cycling can help prevent muscle imbalance

Edit: I mean that by only doing specific patterns of movement such as cycling or running and not balancing it with exercise for the other non-cycling muscle groups can lead to tension and muscle viruses. It's good to have balance

[Puget Pounder]

Do any of you wrap when you lift? Been considering wrapping as a little insurance during weight training.

I think the main cycling leg muscles are quads, hamstrings, calves, and hip flexors. Idk, maybe there are a couple smaller ones used. Good to have a strong core (abs, lower back and obliques) too.

It's not always ideal to only do weight training which mimics specific patterns of movement. Exercising muscles you don't normally use during cycling can help prevent muscle imbalance

I'll say that cycling is a quad dominant sport. Even if you do pull on your upstroke, most of your power is in extension of the knee (quad).

Spot on to work on the antagonist muscles - mainly hamstrings. Most cyclists have weak hamstrings like I said earlier. Balanced quads and hams also leads to better pelvis and knee health.

[rugbysecondrow]

Do any of you wrap when you lift? Been considering wrapping as a little insurance during weight training.

I think the main cycling leg muscles are quads, hamstrings, calves, and hip flexors. Idk, maybe there are a couple smaller ones used. Good to have a strong core (abs, lower back and obliques) too.

It's not always ideal to only do weight training which mimics specific patterns of movement. Exercising muscles you don't normally use during cycling can help prevent muscle imbalance

I don't wrap knees but I know some people who do. I figure that my knees are not wrapped in the real world, so I try to mimic that to a certain degree. I am also gear averse, I hate feeling like I have to have item "A" to do movement "Z". That is just me though.

What I think is neat about fitness in general is the journey. Figuring out what works for you, the little discovery's you make along the way, gathering information, but also learning what to absorb and what to leave behind. Working hard towards your goals, not other peoples goals, is a fun and enlightening process.

Cheers

[FritzWhite]

What I think is neat about fitness in general is the journey. Figuring out what works for you, the little discovery's you make along the way, gathering information, but also learning what to absorb and what to leave behind. Working hard towards your goals, not other peoples goals, is a fun and enlightening process.

Cheers

Right on, I always like hearing different ideas. There's always more to learn! You're right, it's totally about the journey.

I usually check out these 2 for work out tips (not cycling training):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8YcKLet70E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Ay58i0Sog

[shovelhd]

thanks boys.

fiamme red - i ride 45mins each week day already, and 3 hours each saturday.

i need to build up more strength.


Take at least one day off every week. You don't gain strength from stress alone, you gain it from the recovery after stress. My weekly schedule is 3/1/2/1 with two rest days.

[Splash]

hi team.

a question about injury recovery...

i tore something in my left shoulder 6 months ago and have given it plenty of time/rest to heal.

i still feel it now.

besides rest, what is the best way to recover from these niggles?

if i exercise it with regular resistance - will that help heal that tear?

from an anatomical point of view, what is the science around muscle fibre /tendon repair?

splash

[FritzWhite]

I recently broke my collarbone and separated my shoulder. I think you should get it examined by a specialist, but if you can't afford all that crap like me then try, with your arms stretched out away from you like you're about to try to fly or give someone a bear hug, making little circles with your hands in a backwards motion. Try to make larger circles after you've warmed up with some small ones.

If you have any pain, then you're not ready for resistance. If you can do it pain free then try doing it with resistance bands until you find your limits. Be sure to do exercises which work the rotator cuff which are outlined in a vid below by Scooby1961

I'm not a doctor, this is just what I do for me and it works for me. You should still see a specialist.

These videos are good and informative:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DuGnz796Lw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpdlF_Vh7zg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIRGAWWF-00

[Splash]

thanks fritz.

some great links there!

how does loading up an injury with resistance help heal the injury?


splash

[FritzWhite]

I don't think loading up an injured area is going to help.:crap: That sounds painful.

I reread the part where you still "feel" it 6 months after the fact. Sounds like it's not healed man.

If you could move your shoulder pain free, then you could try adding resistance, but since, after 6 months, you still have pain when you move then it sounds like you need surgery to repair the tear. You should probably see a doctor.

[11.4]

thanks fritz.

some great links there!

how does loading up an injury with resistance help heal the injury?


splash


I might differ a bit from other responses.

First, you definitely need an exam to ensure that whatever healing is needed, has happened. That means that if you have a tear, the tear has healed. Six months should be enough for most injuries short of ligament problems, and those are a whole different can of worms.

What can happen after six months is that you have all kinds of adhesions, you can have calcium deposits in the soft tissue, you can have dramatic weakening in some tissues because you were protecting others, and so on. All of those, especially the adhesions, can feel like pain in the original injury.

Start on the supporting musculature first, using weights but not trying for heavy lifts. In the shoulders that particularly means the rotator cuffs. In the knees, it can mean the lower leg supporting musculature (peroneus, ant tib, etc.), and the psoas and related positional muscles. A couple weeks of regular buildup on those makes your future recovery more trouble-free and successful. Physical therapists like to have you use rubber bands for a lot of this, but I actually suggest weights (again, not large ones) because rubber bands can address just part of a particular muscle (one head of a muscle that you work on more with the rubber bands, etc., or one muscle but not another that overlaps it and needs attention). The act of lifting and moving weights also helps rebuild calcium densities that may have decreased locally during your enforced rest.

You may find the most adhesions and calcium deposits in these smaller peripheral muscles. Sometimes you're trying to rebuild flexibility (which an adhesive bridge between two muscles will prevent until the bridge is basically torn apart and healed). Next, start going to the major cycling muscles. What's most critical is good form. I don't like kettle balls or sandbags for starting work in this area, because you basically can't get the same kind of form you have with a barbell and plates. You want to be working with a decent rack as well, so you don't have to move weights outside the range you're trying to work.

Don't be too aggressive on weights. Start very low -- like with a bare bar at 20 kg -- and gradually increase. You're not trying to build new power levels yet, just regain what you may have lost. That means starting low and doing sets building up to a new level each day. For example if your plate load is 20, 40, 60 lbs on one day, stop as soon as you've done one set in your new high weight (here, 60 lbs). Then tomorrow, drop the lowest level and go up one more (in this case, going 40, 60, and either 70 or 80 depending on how you're doing). Start slowing down the increases as you get into any meaningful weights. You are trying to recover, not set new personal records.

When you've reached a point where you're within 20-25% of your original lifting levels prior to the injury, start switching over to a power schedule, but immediately shift to alternate day workouts for a particular area -- lower extremities on one day, then nothing but core (non-hip core) or upper body on the alternating day.

You can do this with a physical therapist, but if your doctor has told you the actual injury is healed, you can do this yourself. It's really about working through adhesion or calcium deposit pain and returning to your prior levels. A good coach is great for helping you. But to stop because you are feeling any pain means you aren't necessarily fixing some of the problems your body incurred as a consequence of the injury. You may have soreness, sharp pain, etc. You have to figure out for yourself what resolves pain and what causes pain to increase from day to day. If you feel some pain but then the pain recedes, you are on the right path. If you feel you're deteriorating over several workouts, it's time to see the doctor again.

I don't recommend relying a lot on NSAIDS while in this process. You have a lot of healing still to do, and those drugs have a side effect of limiting the healing process. A little inflammation and soreness is good, because you are healing from it. That's what training is about. Keep careful records in a notebook of what you're doing and how you're feeling, don't push through when you are sensing pain increasing over several training days, but don't let soreness on one or two days deter you.

You can live with a doctor when you are trying to recover, but few doctors understand athletic training. At best they may tell you you are healed even if you have some residual problems, or may deter you from doing what you're really capable of. Coaches are better at this, but they need to know you well. In the end, it's really about what you know about your own body and your ability to track and monitor your own condition. Don't overdo it, don't underdo it. Neither is an effective response. The key caution is that if you are feeling increasing soreness over several days, don't increase the load and do check with a qualified physician for imaging or other diagnosis. Usual caveats apply of course -- this is more about what a coach will tell you and how a good coach will help you manage recovery.

[FritzWhite]

Well, this is a good response. 11.4 clearly knows his stuff and you should listen to him.

That said, I still like pondering these types of questions and thinking of how I will handle these problems which will inevitably crop up as my body declines with age. I don't always know the correct terminology, but I try to listen to my body and apply the things I know and have picked up from knowledgeable people like the person above.

The last accident I had was around Thanksgiving when I broke my collarbone and separated my shoulder, and it feels much better now. The first few weeks were rough. I took a picture of the mangled area a couple weeks ago and it's pretty emaciated, but the bone feels great now when I lift. It didn't heal perfectly straight, but the protruding junction of bone has gone down a lot and it feels 100x better than before. I'm very much enjoying the comeback now that I can lift weight pain free with my right arm again. I plan to take some more pics of it in the future and document recovery.

I'd be ashamed to show the withered, broken area now, but maybe when it's healed and regrown I could do a before/after pic.

[MattTuck]

I just need to say, that Christian is a sadist. I bookmarked the link he posted back in 2013 (and several times since then) with the intention of doing it. I just did it.

I am SOOOOOO inflexible through the hamstrings/hip/lower back, and this yoga sequence highlighted that fact. Going to do it a few more times, and it definitely helps... but it wasn't pleasant.



I try to alternate the following workouts along with 2x20 and 4x5 and 30/30s on-the-bike work.

Workout 1:
5x5 squats or overhead squats
5x5 bench press
5x5 inverted row
Bridges/Planks

Workout 2:
5x5 deadlifts
5x5 overhead press
3x12 pullups
Bridges/Planks

I also like to do this yoga release: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDQNqZMv1V0

[11.4]

Nice older thread. For those of you who still haven't visited Mark Rippetoe, or who are not a fan, here are a couple snippets of Mark at work.

First, a simple quote from him so you know what doing a workout with him is like: "During the last few reps of a true 20RM squat, just do what Jesus tells you."

And my favorite Mark video ever (note the kukri knife he walks around with):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iL7DdAKnAc

[rugbysecondrow]

Nice older thread. For those of you who still haven't visited Mark Rippetoe, or who are not a fan, here are a couple snippets of Mark at work.

First, a simple quote from him so you know what doing a workout with him is like: "During the last few reps of a true 20RM squat, just do what Jesus tells you."

And my favorite Mark video ever (note the kukri knife he walks around with):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iL7DdAKnAc

Some people won't like his approach, but I agree 100% with what he said, "most cyclists are not athletes because they don't train to get better at their sport".

[Grinta13]

I have a history of back issues that require constant maintenance in the form of core work, stretching, and consistent chiropractic maintenance. I stopped trying to lift heavy weights in squats or leg press as I always ended up with back issues. In their place, I use plyometric jumps, one-legged squats with low weight (40 lbs), and hi-rep squats using just 20 lbs (40 - 80 reps in rapid fashion). And it's been said in other posts here - nothing beats time on the bike; at least for me this is true.

[lucasfarr92]

I like strength training for the main muscles. Squats and other exercises like that also train secondary muscles that do not usually get touched when just cycling. Also, make sure you utilize your hamstrings. They are the forgotten muscle group.

[JStonebarger]

...Extensive results in exercise physiology and osteology have shown that if you don't actually lift resistive loads, you don't protect against bone problems. Swimming doesn't do it. Rowing doesn't. Frankly, cycling doesn't. You have to lift weight, one way or the other. The highest bone calcium levels are preserved when you lift weights...

Higher than when you run? Or jump?

[11.4]

Higher than when you run? Or jump?

It's all about force = mass times acceleration. The greater the force, the greater the benefit. Plyometric vertical jumps can do for your bones most or all of what weights will do as long as you exert the same force. There's a point where you can create more force by pushing weights in a back squat than you can create by jumping. Also, jumping and running have certain patterns of force application that can strengthen one part of a bone but not another, while with weights you can move, say, from back squat to front squat to Zercher to develop more fully.

How practical is this in real life? If you run or jump a lot, you should be just fine. Weightlifting does fine too, and some build-up of muscle (in a balanced approach) may provide collateral strengthening for joints. Most anything helps. More of it helps more. Do weights plus plyometric vertical jumps or weights plus running and you achieve that much more. It's all good for you.