Tubeless flat fixing: Anyone have success?

[r_mutt]

i've been running tubeless all year thus far with good success (i've only had one flat). unfortunately i wasn't able to get a tube into the tire without destroying the tube - i ruined 3 tubes (1 mine, 2 teammates) trying to fix this on the side of the road.

has anyone been able to fix a tubeless flat by installing a tube? what was your wheel/tire/tube combo? mine was Campy Shamal/Hutchinson Fusion 3/Specialized Tube.

[RedRider]

What went wrong? How was the tube destroyed?

[AngryScientist]

i ran tubeless for a while on that exact same combination. shamal 2-way-fits and hutch tires.

my first flat proved to be a complete and total mess on the side of the road with milky white sealant everywhere, but i put a tube in with really no problem??

[AngryScientist]

by the way, i totally gave up on tubeless after that, and have been running those same shamals ever since with regular clincher tires and tubes and the ride is every bit as nice. probably more so actually, as good 320 tpi tires like vittoria open corsas are just nice tires than the less supple hutchingsons ever were.

[r_mutt]

What went wrong? How was the tube destroyed?


getting that last bit of tire onto the rim was very difficult. 2 times we did it with a lever and tore the tube with it, and the last time without the lever and still managed to rip the tube. we called a cab...

AS- i am considering just running that combo or michelins pro 3's since it is the winter.

[RedRider]

The Hutchinson Fusions are tough to mount in normal situations nevermind on the side of the road while the group is waiting for you to change a flat!
Our new tubeless tire of choice is now the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX. Smoother ride and easy peazy to mount.

[r_mutt]

so you feel like it's a tire circumference issue or one of tire suppleness (flexibility)?

[dekindy]

so you feel like it's a tire circumference issue or one of tire suppleness (flexibility)?

Stiff sidewall.

I have changed at least 2 and maybe 3 flats, once when I was very hot and tired. Maybe I am the exception but applying proper technique I have never had any extra difficulty with Hutchinson road tubeless either on initial install or on the road, both Fusion 2 and Intensive. Have only used the second generation, 7850SL Shimano Dura Ace wheel.

Gladly take anybody's Hutchinson road tubeless off their hands that thinks they are too tough to install. Have some Schwalbe Ultreamo ZX that I will probably install sometime next Summer or Fall and will report what impressions on them.

Were you trying to install a tube in colder temperatures? I would not be surprised if I had difficulty during the Winter and hope I don't have to find out!

[bikeridah]

While we're on topic, installing conti gp4000s on my Pacentis is damn near impossible. Even with the hairdryer, my hands are left numb and I've already had to replace 1 tube.

I assume this is due to the tighter rim lip tolerances for tubeless?

EDIT: I cant even imagine changing a flat roadside, it's hard enough to do in my living room!

[sjbraun]

I'm no powerhouse, but I can mount GP 4000s on my Pacenti rims with just my hands, no levers.

That being said, these help tremendously.

http://cart.crankbrothers.com/tools-pumps/speedlever-1/speedlever.html

[KF9YR]

I only run tubeless on my mountain bikes so I can only vouch for this product in a mountain bike tire application...

http://www.dynaplug.com/mini_pro.html

Basically it's a mini version of tire plug kits that tire shops have used on tires for many years.

I'm not sure how well it will handle the higher pressures of road tires but even if you can only get 35-40 psi it might be better than a cab ride.

P.S. my tandem came with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires. They had about as much resistance as riding through wet concrete. It took me 30 minutes to get the front and back tires off the rim. I can imagine how hard it must have been trying to get the tubeless tires off on the side of the road.

[Louis]

A while back I bought an Ultegra 2-way rim and I've been trying to decide how best to use it. This sort of thread really makes me think twice about going tubeless - especially since I have a hard time distinguishing between very small ride quality differences.

Clinchers are so simple to use and repair, and the higher-end models are very good...

[dekindy]

A while back I bought an Ultegra 2-way rim and I've been trying to decide how best to use it. This sort of thread really makes me think twice about going tubeless - especially since I have a hard time distinguishing between very small ride quality differences.

Clinchers are so simple to use and repair, and the higher-end models are very good...

My main motivation for implementing road tubeless is safety. Stiffer sidewalls and the design of the rim make it much more difficult for the tire to come off the rim in a blowout. I had a buddy just last Summer suffer a front blowout that immediately came off the rim and locked his front wheel flipping him over the handlebars and breaking his collar bone and requiring extensive surgical intervention, many pins, etc. It is not impossible for the tire not to come off the rim, but much less likely. It is also nice not to have to worry about pinch flats. I do not find road tubeless to be any different other than it is a little messy if I actually have to change a tube on the road. On the other hand, since I switched to Caffelatex, Stans did not work well, it has saved me from having to change a tire on the road the last two times that I have had flats.

[Splash]

sjbraun - how does that tool work and how easy is it to fit in your clothing?

dekindy - keen to learn why / how 'stans' did not work well and why you chose Caffelatex?

splash

[dekindy]

sjbraun - how does that tool work and how easy is it to fit in your clothing?

dekindy - keen to learn why / how 'stans' did not work well and why you chose Caffelatex?

splash

Lots of research showed that those that had good/bad experience with Stan's versus Caffelatex and vice versa was split evenly; 50/50. Curious as to why one user could have good experience with Stan's and bad with Caffelatex while another user could have bad experience with Stan's and good with Caffelatex but there were lots of examples so it is fact. Tried Stan's first and it just did not seal any punctures that it was supposed to. Not sure if formulas have changed; tried Stan's in 2009-10 or 11, not sure exactly but gave Stan's a good try, and then Caffelatex going forward.

Tried Caffelatex and it sealed two punctures. By sealing I mean that the tire would hold 50-60 pounds pressure so that I was able to ride in instead of having to install a tube out on the road. Also much less messy since they offered an injector. Stan's now offers an injector which if I had known Stan's could be installed with the valve core installed I could have used Caffelatex injector to minimize mess. I had a mess because the Shimano valve core cannot be removed and I did not want to use another model.

Recently experienced corrosion caused by sealant and was able to get rim sealed with help from LBS. Sealant formulas are not supposed to corrode but don't know if that is true back then versus now or if it is true even now. Shimano says to not use sealant so if I replace the rim when walls get thin or if it starts leaking again will have to decide if will use sealant going forward.

[Splash]

thanks dekindy.

can the same philosophy be used for tubeless and tubular tires when applying and recommending different brands of sealant?

interesting link here about the stans vs caffeletex:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/stans-vs-caffelatex-vs-conversion-tubeless-589561.html

splash

[dekindy]

thanks dekindy.

can the same philosophy be used for tubeless and tubular tires when applying and recommending different brands of sealant?

interesting link here about the stans vs caffeletex:
http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/stans-vs-caffelatex-vs-conversion-tubeless-589561.html

splash

Not sure what you mean but I have zero experience with tubular. You will have to research that yourself.

[LegendRider]

My experiences with tubeless:

- DA 7850 SL wheels with Hutchinson Fusion 2s and 3s. Stans. No corrosion, sealant plugged a puncture and was able to ride home on low pressure. Didn't repair in field. Also, flatted once without sealant and easily popped a tube in.
- DA 7850 C24 TL wheels with Hutchinson Fusion 3s. Stan's caused corrosion. Significantly more difficult to mount tires. Went to CaffeLatex but it didn't seal a small sidewall puncture. Eventually ran regular clinchers.

[HillDancer]

I wonder if the differences in sealant experiences are because the products were not shaken enough before application. I have good success with Orange Seal, however, the larger of the particles (metal swarf) must be evenly dispersed/shared among applications to be available for plugging large punctures.

When installing a tire on a TR rim, push the first section of bead over the rim wall, and place the bead into the center channel while working the rest of the tire bead on. I use a tube when setting a tire for the first time on a TR rim. After pushing the bead over on one side, partially inflate a tube and fit within tire and around the rim, partially deflate the tube, push the remaining bead over, starting on the side opposite the valve stem end, squeeze the bead into the center channel, and open the tube stem valve while working the tire on. I don't have any problems with the tube being captured outside the rim, between tire and rim wall, or pinched by tire lever using this method.

I use a bead jack for stubborn tires.

[classtimesailer]

Between the burping at low pressures off road/CX and the road side flat fixing, I don't know why you guys bother.

[oldpotatoe]

Between the burping at low pressures off road/CX and the road side flat fixing, I don't know why you guys bother.

I think that's a valid point and one reason why, over a decade in, road tubeless is still a teeny part of the market, tire and wheel wise. Higher end tire, latex tube maybe, decent sealant in the tube, not a ton of psi, get a great ride, few/no flats, no mess if you do flat. I dunno, seems like another MTB 'technology' trying to make it's way into road stuff......like wet discs.

OR, tubular with sealant, another great, not hard, old school tech that works.

IMHO, of course.

[malcolm]

I use it on the mtn bikes and like it, but at least for my riding I've not seen the need on the road bikes.

[benb]

Haven't seen a need for it on the road, for one thing the wheelsets that support it properly are too expensive for what you get IMO. I would want a real tubeless rim, not a stan's setup where the rim & tire manufacturer are both saying it's dangerous and voids your warranty. And IIRC that means a $1000+ wheelset that is nothing special. I'd love to have a cross bike/"bad road bike" that had "wet" discs & tubeless tires but I won't do it till the price is right and the products are fairly mature.

That said I have had nothing but great luck MTBing. Much better performance, I can run really, really low pressures (20psi at 180lbs?) without burping or having any trouble, I've had some amazing flats (1/4" sidewall cut?) seal with Stan's sealant, and I've had no trouble at all putting tubes in if I need to. I've always stuck with UST rims + tires, but I still run tubes in the winter as I have an expensive set of Nokian studded MTB tires that are not set up for tubeless.

I guess this is the same thing with discs.. they aren't ready for prime time on the road but they're really mature for MTB and it would be hard to give them up there.

[pcxmbfj]

I believe that rim corrosion may caused by ammonia in the sealant.

I've heard that Stans used to use ammonia, it helps keep the sealant from drying out, but not in their latest product.

[Mark McM]

I think that's a valid point and one reason why, over a decade in, road tubeless is still a teeny part of the market, tire and wheel wise.

That, plus the other factor is that almost none of the claimed benefits has materialized. Tubeless road tire systems are no lighter, have no lower rolling resistance, and no greater traction than clinchers with tubes. While tubeless tires are less prone to pinch flats, these are much less common on the road than off road, so it is less of a reason to switch to tubeless tires on the road.

[Louis]

While tubeless tires are less prone to pinch flats, these are much less common on the road than off road

I really, really shouldn't say this, but it's been at least 12 years, probably 15, since I've had a pinch flat (was not watching where I was going well enough on a slight downhill and around 35 mph I went over a 6" long 2x4 in the road - classic snake-bite punctures on the tube).

So I agree, if prevention of pinch-flats is the primary reason to go tubeless, I don't think they're worth the hassle over clinchers.

[biker72]

Tubeless=Too much hassle for limited benefits.

[bfd]

That, plus the other factor is that almost none of the claimed benefits has materialized. Tubeless road tire systems are no lighter, have no lower rolling resistance, and no greater traction than clinchers with tubes. While tubeless tires are less prone to pinch flats, these are much less common on the road than off road, so it is less of a reason to switch to tubeless tires on the road.

I have a friend who rides tubeless and swears by it. He claims less flats (only had one flat in last 3 years) and that they are more comfortable. He's about 140lbs, rides 700x23 tires at 85psi and loves it. :banana::eek::butt::mad:

In contrast, I'm over 195lb, ride 700x25 tires at 85-90psi and love it. I've gotten more flats over the same 3 year period, but that might be my riding style, e.g., more city riding than him because I commute by bike and I'm alot heavier too!

Most shops say just ride bigger tires and you get the same benefits as tubeless.

Now, if you want more performance, TUBULAR tires all the way. I have another friend who only rides tubulars and he loves those 1100g carbon rim wheelsets that he picks up cheap, but that's another story....Good Luck!

[josephr]

A while back I bought an Ultegra 2-way rim and I've been trying to decide how best to use it. This sort of thread really makes me think twice about going tubeless - especially since I have a hard time distinguishing between very small ride quality differences.

Clinchers are so simple to use and repair, and the higher-end models are very good...

going on tangent here---what about pouring a little sealant into the tube or, dare I say it, use a slime tube? Obviously, not in a racing/lightwheel application, but in a commuter/touring situation, would that be an option?
Joe

[CunegoFan]

going on tangent here---what about pouring a little sealant into the tube or, dare I say it, use a slime tube? Obviously, not in a racing/lightwheel application, but in a commuter/touring situation, would that be an option?
Joe

That is crazy talk. People buying new stuff of dubious practicality will make the bike industry more money.

[Mark McM]

going on tangent here---what about pouring a little sealant into the tube or, dare I say it, use a slime tube? Obviously, not in a racing/lightwheel application, but in a commuter/touring situation, would that be an option?
Joe

Of course that's an option. Slime (and other sealants) were available and in use before tubeless clincher tires even existed.