Share the road?

[LegendRider]

Apparently someone in San Diego doesn't agree.

http://youtu.be/cb1Gyk59ivc

[Vientomas]

Is this the choice: Kill a cyclist or wait to pass until it is safe?

[jtakeda]

Thare predy gud at speling, that sign is horrible.

[blessthismess]

Is this the choice: Kill a cyclist or wait to pass until it is safe?

Why the hell would I have to wait a second to pass if I'm in a car? That's crazy! I may end up a minute or two late to where I'm going!

[Louis]

Cyclists out there are real wusses if that sign lasts for more than a week.

It's war!!!

[downtube]

So many things come to my mind, but I know it's not appropriate to type them into this reply. Let's just say the person who wrote this sign is an ignorant piece of garbage with no respect for human life.

[avalonracing]

I'm most troubled by the awkward attempt at creative composition when shooting the long shot of the bike shop owner.

[bloody sunday]

So many things come to my mind, but I know it's not appropriate to type them into this reply. Let's just say the person who wrote this sign is an ignorant piece of garbage with no respect for human life.

typical east county, though.

I'm originally from San Diego and it seems that only the ignorant fools get any attention down there.

[Saint Vitus]

East county, ····ing rednecks, there I said it for you downtube. Louis, I would love to take it down or splatter it with paint, but maybe a constructive discussion would be best. I don't ride out that way and probably never will, this certainly won't inspire me to do otherwise.

[Dale Alan]

That is pretty sad . We don't have signs like that around here,but some drivers sure share that lack of respect for cyclists .

[oldpotatoe]

That is pretty sad . We don't have signs like that around here,but some drivers sure share that lack of respect for cyclists .

Here we go again, or I'll start it. 'Respect' is earned. 'Cyclists' need to clean their own house before that respect is earned. I ride a lot more now, during the work week and the actions of many 'cyclists', particularly those who seem to be commuting, and display their 'entitled' attitude, is appalling. Cross in front of traffic, run red lights, doing all sorts of really dumb things.

I don't agree with the tool that wrote the sign but 'respect for cyclists' isn't automatic.

IMHO

[Dale Alan]

Here we go again, or I'll start it. 'Respect' is earned. 'Cyclists' need to clean their own house before that respect is earned. I ride a lot more now, during the work week and the actions of many 'cyclists', particularly those who seem to be commuting, and display their 'entitled' attitude, is appalling. Cross in front of traffic, run red lights, doing all sorts of really dumb things.

I don't agree with the tool that wrote the sign but 'respect for cyclists' isn't automatic.

IMHO

Relax ,I drive and I cycle . I know what respect means .

[oldpotatoe]

Relax ,I drive and I cycle . I know what respect means .

I'm very relaxed Dale and I drive and 'cycle' also. What I don't do is say anything to that 'cyclist' that runs the red light if I'm in my car. If on a bike and catch up to them, I always say the same thing, "why not stop at red lights, cyclist?'

And I always get a variation of the same response, rhymes with truck or duck, you.

glad you know what respect 'means', then you know it's earned.

[ultraman6970]

I'm with potato in this one, besides what potato says, there are a bunch of suckers riding bikes that can't keep the bike straight and those are a real hazard for themselves, other riders and even the car drivers.

We have a trail in here with a line in the middle, two women a few days ago were riding at the wrong side of the road, then they complained because you made them move to where they should (stupid attitude IMO), you leave no room to pass them if you use both sides of the road. Then you have the zig zaggers, that looks like had crabs in their butts because they can't keep the darn bike straight, and then you get the ones potato says, the ones that don't follow any road regulations, mix those two kinds of riders and you get people that should not ride a bike.

I have an dutch friend and a polish friend that their rides were very erratic (the bike can't stay in one place, it woobles), a simple re fit changed the problem right away(flip the darn stem DOWN a tiny bit). Both of them asked me why LBSs were not doing what I did and they keep people riding like that in the road (both noticed the change in the riding right away, more engaged and non erratic no more), my answer was (since I dont have an lbs) the time they will spend teaching you, the time they will spend fitting the bike, they just want to move the bike off the store, the kid that sold you the bike has no clue, and the myth that is better to ride like a bear riding a 3 y/o tricycle. Resuming, time is money.

Anybody have the fatty riding a 10k bucks time trial machine swinging from side to side of the road with 53x11 and listening music full blast??, those are everywhere. I have like 10 of those here and I see them in the narrow roads too, as a car driver those are going to get hit some day, I'm more conscious with them because I ride too but other people wont be as nice as I'm with them, my wife doesn't ride but the only comment I have to her is... "guys like that is the reason I don't go out in group rides and centuries," after all this years and seen me riding a few times she now gets why I don't ride in groups. As her many drivers don't get it either and they only see that the sucker is not sharing the road with the car, thing that at some point is true.

If you add things up, you have like 90% of the cycling community doing just dumb ass cr@p in their rides and the other guys pay for it. There is no bike riding education in group rides (not in LBSs), too much competition maybe? better have the other guy riding like a monkey, dont care!....I will smoke him in the next climb!... and that attitude is bad as well, add that what i said before, some geniuses can't figure it out how to ride the bike correctly from looking other riders (happy when a guy asked me why my bike felt so stuck to the pavement and why his was going everywhere, he figure it out after I told him what was wrong), so eventhought car drivers should respect the lightest vehicule, you can't blame them for complain with so many Einsteins riding a bike this days you know.

[Dale Alan]

I'm very relaxed Dale and I drive and 'cycle' also. What I don't do is say anything to that 'cyclist' that runs the red light if I'm in my car. If on a bike and catch up to them, I always say the same thing, "why not stop at red lights, cyclist?'

And I always get a variation of the same response, rhymes with truck or duck, you.

glad you know what respect 'means', then you know it's earned.

I agree,it is earned. I go by the rules,so I get ticked when others don't . It makes it hard on all of us,especially here in the sticks where cows and combines are more popular than bikes. I am always in defense mode,mostly ride at dawn and dusk so I can see the headlights coming. No shoulders on the roads so I need to take evasive action. Things are flat here and people seem to drive on automatic pilot at 70 MPH on the back roads.

[ptourkin]

East county, ····ing rednecks, there I said it for you downtube. Louis, I would love to take it down or splatter it with paint, but maybe a constructive discussion would be best. I don't ride out that way and probably never will, this certainly won't inspire me to do otherwise.

It's on private property along the very popular Great Western Loop and has been up since summer. Somehow it has recently attracted attention through the BikinginLA blog and Mionske picked it up. This is a primary route for pedalling climbers in SD and also for Harleys and crotch rockets. There are also signs directed at the motorcycles up around there.

I climbed and descended past that sign 12 times in one 3 day period this summer and experienced no harassment. Compared to riding along the coast, this area is still trouble free, with great climbing and beautiful views.

You guys should check it out - to ride in San Diego and skip Lyons Valley and Honey Springs roads is a shame - also the blazing descent down Skyline Truck Trail to Jamul Drive after. The San Diego Randonneurs and the liege of fellow Holland riders would agree.

Edit: This is a very rural mountaintop area. No stoplights in a 20 mile radius at least and very few stop signs. Cyclists and bikers can be a pain on the descents a la Mulholland, though. Since you have to climb a few thousand feet to get there, though, most of the riders up there are experienced and competent. It's not a bunch of fixie kids running stop signs and lights.

That said, this guy is obviously a moron but I doubt he has much influence. It's also nicer being out east on a day off than on weekends, as the recreational traffic isn't out there. The residents have always been respectful with me. I much prefer being out east to fighting traffic along the coast and I doubt I would have been able to accumulate 450k ft of climbing ytd without heading in that direction.

[67-59]

Here we go again, or I'll start it. 'Respect' is earned. 'Cyclists' need to clean their own house before that respect is earned. I ride a lot more now, during the work week and the actions of many 'cyclists', particularly those who seem to be commuting, and display their 'entitled' attitude, is appalling. Cross in front of traffic, run red lights, doing all sorts of really dumb things.

I don't agree with the tool that wrote the sign but 'respect for cyclists' isn't automatic.

IMHO

So it's ok to treat everybody of a certain group poorly when you see transgressions by others in that group? I saw two guys in pickups run a stop sign near my house recently - should I assume ALL pickup drivers run stop signs?

[sailorboy]

typical east county, though.

I'm originally from San Diego and it seems that only the ignorant fools get any attention down there.

Yea, when I lived in SD for a while I occasionally ventured out to east county for the nice roads but some of the worst hazing and close drive-bys I ever experienced happened out there. Once when I stopped at some little country store to get a gatorade or something, a little kid in a truck with his Paw actually called me a faggot as I walked by to go into the store. No response from Paw. Priceless.

I saw a bumper sticker once on car in town that read 'no life east of I-5'

This sign thing unfortunately gives creedence to that thought.

[TRACK]

obesity wouldnt be so high in america if everyone rides a bike. its weird how some of my friends are "too lazy to run or jog", go biking for god sake's - youre still sitting AND youre breaking sweats.

[kevinvc]

Some people are inconsiderate jerks, regardless of the mode of transportation they are using. Using terms like "cyclists" or "cagers" is an easy way to perpetuate the us vs. them tribal mentality that is all too common and leads to viewing others as somehow less deserving of basic human consideration.

If I run a stop sign and hit a pedestrian crossing the street while I'm in my car, they're probably dead. If I do it while on my bike, they're probably hurt. Either way, I'm a jerk and bear the responsibility for my actions. However, the effect is disproportionate based on the type of vehicle I'm using, thus I have an even greater responsibility to be extra aware and careful when I'm using a 2,000 lb. car than a 20 lb. bike.

[professerr]

Here we go again, or I'll start it. 'Respect' is earned. 'Cyclists' need to clean their own house before that respect is earned. I ride a lot more now, during the work week and the actions of many 'cyclists', particularly those who seem to be commuting, and display their 'entitled' attitude, is appalling. Cross in front of traffic, run red lights, doing all sorts of really dumb things.

I don't agree with the tool that wrote the sign but 'respect for cyclists' isn't automatic.

IMHO

I wonder if anyone misanthropic enough to put a sign like that out is susceptible to the give-and-take in human relations that generates respect.

[bloody sunday]

Yea, when I lived in SD for a while I occasionally ventured out to east county for the nice roads but some of the worst hazing and close drive-bys I ever experienced happened out there. Once when I stopped at some little country store to get a gatorade or something, a little kid in a truck with his Paw actually called me a faggot as I walked by to go into the store. No response from Paw. Priceless.

I saw a bumper sticker once on car in town that read 'no life east of I-5'

This sign thing unfortunately gives creedence to that thought.

I-5 is a little too far west. I would say East of the 805

[pbarry]

Here we go again, or I'll start it. 'Respect' is earned. 'Cyclists' need to clean their own house before that respect is earned. I ride a lot more now, during the work week and the actions of many 'cyclists', particularly those who seem to be commuting, and display their 'entitled' attitude, is appalling. Cross in front of traffic, run red lights, doing all sorts of really dumb things.

I don't agree with the tool that wrote the sign but 'respect for cyclists' isn't automatic.

IMHO

+1

There are a lot of obtuse riders around here, that are not helping the politics with drivers in Boulder County. A tri rider was doing laps on Niwot Rd. and Monarch, between 63rd and 75th near the start of the weekday afternoon commute hours. He blew through the Stop on Niwot Rd, still on his extensions, had to take the curve wide, almost lost control, and missed my work truck bumper by inches. I was going 45, (the speed limit is 50), heading north on 75th. Saw him on the same curve 20 minutes later when I was going in the other direction. He'd modified his turn line, was on the bullhorns, and tapped his brakes, before blowing through the stop again. :rolleyes:

[oldpotatoe]

I wonder if anyone misanthropic enough to put a sign like that out is susceptible to the give-and-take in human relations that generates respect.

Probably not but private land, 'free' country, consider the source....and the spelling. Lots of ignorance out there.

[Ahneida Ride]

I size up a cyclist as far back as I can ...

I can usually tell if he is normal or erratic ...

They erratic ones can and will cut right front of me ..
If I were not a cyclist and expecting such behavior ......

[Saint Vitus]

It's on private property along the very popular Great Western Loop and has been up since summer. Somehow it has recently attracted attention through the BikinginLA blog and Mionske picked it up. This is a primary route for pedalling climbers in SD and also for Harleys and crotch rockets. There are also signs directed at the motorcycles up around there.

I climbed and descended past that sign 12 times in one 3 day period this summer and experienced no harassment. Compared to riding along the coast, this area is still trouble free, with great climbing and beautiful views.

You guys should check it out - to ride in San Diego and skip Lyons Valley and Honey Springs roads is a shame - also the blazing descent down Skyline Truck Trail to Jamul Drive after. The San Diego Randonneurs and the liege of fellow Holland riders would agree.

Edit: This is a very rural mountaintop area. No stoplights in a 20 mile radius at least and very few stop signs. Cyclists and bikers can be a pain on the descents a la Mulholland, though. Since you have to climb a few thousand feet to get there, though, most of the riders up there are experienced and competent. It's not a bunch of fixie kids running stop signs and lights.

That said, this guy is obviously a moron but I doubt he has much influence. It's also nicer being out east on a day off than on weekends, as the recreational traffic isn't out there. The residents have always been respectful with me. I much prefer being out east to fighting traffic along the coast and I doubt I would have been able to accumulate 450k ft of climbing ytd without heading in that direction.

I lived in Dulzura for several years and knew the area and roads pretty well, that was almost 30 years ago and things have changed quite a bit. I didn't bike then, and my biking now is pretty limited to lunchtime around Torrey Pines and weekends around my hood.

I would probably take a tour out that way at some point but weekdays off are few and far between. Hmmm, I do see the Wheelman have a ride scheduled for the Great Western next month, I might consider giving it a go even though it is a Saturday.

[bloody sunday]

I lived in Dulzura for several years and knew the area and roads pretty well, that was almost 30 years ago and things have changed quite a bit. I didn't bike then, and my biking now is pretty limited to lunchtime around Torrey Pines and weekends around my hood.

I would probably take a tour out that way at some point but weekdays off are few and far between. Hmmm, I do see the Wheelman have a ride scheduled for the Great Western next month, I might consider giving it a go even though it is a Saturday.

I would avoid east county and stay near the coast, plenty of great scenery and nice climbs to keep one interested

[m_sasso]

I ride and I drive, in that order.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/opinion/sunday/is-it-ok-to-kill-cyclists.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

[etu]

we seem to lack a standard on what is "proper behavior" in traffic.
with so many different types of people, it would be difficult, but perhaps bicycle advocacy groups can serve to disseminate this idea.

these two that i have been strictly following recently.
1) stop at all red lights (unless it's 2am and there is no one around)
2) slow at 4 ways stops and yield to cars already waiting there

my impression is that if 90% of us followed these rules of common courtesy, we would go a long way in "cleaning our own house".

[Kirk007]

friday night 6 pm. Dark and rainy in Seattle. Sitting in a cab at a red light waiting to make a right turn. Level intersection on major downtown transit (Alaska Way). Light turns green for taxi, Just as taxi starts to turn, a "cyclist" with red blinker on helmet, seat post and bike bag and a yellow vest comes through the intersection (against the light) in front of us, turns his head and gives us a snearing look and the finger. What an as*hole.

Too many cyclists feel entitled to flaunt the law; seems to be a perception that they are at war with everyone else - cars, trucks, buses, pedestrians, and superior to all. I just don't get it; perhaps because I've ended up in the ER unconscious from being hit from behind. We lose, every time, in a too close encounter. I'll never understand how some folk's mentality is overridden by basic impulses of survival and staying out of harms way. Perhaps cold to say, but it seems that Darwin's law is alive and well with respect to many follow humans on bikes.`

This is of course no justification for poor conduct by folks in cars or otherwise, simply an observation and agreement with Old Potato that other folks on bikes bring to mind the old adage about "with 'friends' like these ..."

[etu]

Do we need to ask law enforcement to crack down on ourselves and our brethren?
In Marin, tickets are freely given to cyclist and you know you run the red light at your own peril. On La Canada road @ Woodside, you dare not charge past the stop signs.
Maybe in the city (San Francisco), we should encourage a period of similarly strict enforcement of traffic laws by cyclists. Setup surveillance at a few hot spots. Wouldn't take more than a few dozen tickets to make a dent.

[rustychisel]

Red herring.

Obviously I missed the law that says cyclists behaving poorly and giving the rest of us a bad name is reason enough to maim or kill them all.

Anyway, that sign... that is survives so long is testament to a prevailing attitude. A little attention from a 12 gauge would likely correct the speeling too.

[Relax Pete, you can keep the Stinger in the garage until it's really needed]

[Kirk007]

Red herring.

Obviously I missed the law that says cyclists behaving poorly and giving the rest of us a bad name is reason enough to maim or kill them all.



Sorry but this is every bit as much of a red herring - I don't seen anyone hear advocating such a silly position.

But I defend my position to ride on the road a couple times a month from people who are otherwise reasonable on most issues. Every time, EVERY TIME, they rant about folks on bikes riding poorly and doing lame ass, stupid sh*t. These bike riders are giving us all a bad name and making the roads more dangerous for the rest of us. Just cause human nature is screwed up doesn't mean we can be all holier than thou - we pay the price for stupid arrogance cyclists.

[Gummee]

we seem to lack a standard on what is "proper behavior" in traffic.
with so many different types of people, it would be difficult, but perhaps bicycle advocacy groups can serve to disseminate this idea.

these two that i have been strictly following recently.
1) stop at all red lights (unless it's 2am and there is no one around)
2) slow at 4 ways stops and yield to cars already waiting there

my impression is that if 90% of us followed these rules of common courtesy, we would go a long way in "cleaning our own house".IME most 'cyclists' DO stop at signs and obey traffic rules. We're on the road often enough to know that it works.

There's a lot of 'people on bikes' that don't have a clue tho. THOSE are the ones we need to reach. Problem is, they don't read the magazines. They don't visit the forums (like this one). They exist in their own little world and don't realize what they do for the rest of us.

M

[Elefantino]

IME most 'cyclists' DO stop at signs and obey traffic rules.
NoVa must be the exception. In Fla, Ga, NC, and NorCal, that's not the case, unfortunately.

[oldpotatoe]

Red herring.

Obviously I missed the law that says cyclists behaving poorly and giving the rest of us a bad name is reason enough to maim or kill them all.

Anyway, that sign... that is survives so long is testament to a prevailing attitude. A little attention from a 12 gauge would likely correct the speeling too.

[Relax Pete, you can keep the Stinger in the garage until it's really needed]

I think that is overstated. Yesterday in Layfayette, crossing at a cross walk, to get to the coffee shop, with the light, some dic-hed in a SUV yelled at me to 'get off the road'. 3 of us on bikes...I'd be fine if that happened with less frequency.

That sign doesn't really bother me, not any more than a sign telling me I'm gonna go straight to hell cuz I don't go to this or that church....

Consider the sorce......oooops!

[AngryScientist]

..... to get to the coffee shop

ahhh hahhh!!

after years of telling us we dont need to do things to look cool at the coffee shop....the man retires, installs an EPS group on his bike and hangs out at the coffee shop!

what's next Peter, 16-spoke wheels??

:banana::banana:

[oldpotatoe]

ahhh hahhh!!

after years of telling us we dont need to do things to look cool at the coffee shop....the man retires, installs an EPS group on his bike and hangs out at the coffee shop!

what's next Peter, 16-spoke wheels??

:banana::banana:

Tubeless, wet disc, electronic, carbon frame, seat mast, tapered fork....waiting for thru axles.......

EPS waiting till I get my workshop built. Although I can wrench on a bici, I know nothing about carpentry, zero, nada.

[malcolm]

It's sad but true folks will remember the behavior of a couple d-bags over a 100 people behaving properly.

[BumbleBeeDave]

It's sad but true folks will remember the behavior of a couple d-bags over a 100 people behaving properly.

A comparatively small group of both drivers AND cyclists give the larger population a bad name.

But to me there's no getting around the fact that if one of OUR bad drivers runs into one of THEM, the worst that will happen is they will have a dented up car.

If one of THEIR bad drivers runs into us, the result can be pretty much guaranteed to be much, MUCH worse, up to and including death.

BBD

[Saint Vitus]

I think that is overstated. Yesterday in Layfayette, crossing at a cross walk, to get to the coffee shop, with the light, some dic-hed in a SUV yelled at me to 'get off the road'. 3 of us on bikes...I'd be fine if that happened with less frequency.

That sign doesn't really bother me, not any more than a sign telling me I'm gonna go straight to hell cuz I don't go to this or that church....

Consider the sorce......oooops!

Funny thing, I've yet to have that happen to me here (maybe I do need to ride out to Honey Springs for that experience...), not that I ply the streets of San Diego night and day 7 days a week...

The really ironic thing is that car drivers take out all their frustrations on cyclists because we're slower, more available to hearing the verbal abuse (no cage, loud pipes or full face helmets) and some of the lack of respect does apply due to scofflaw behavior, when car drivers (and motorcyclists) are as obnoxious (if not more...) and 1000 times more dangerous that the heaviest steel cruiser bombing down a 10% grade!

I see cars running reds all the time! I was over at a local mall recently and came upon a traffic accident, man was killed, and because why??? A PhD Prius driver was late for a dentist's appt and ran the red. She took out 3 cars! Not an hour prior and just up the road, a driver ran a red at Scripps Memorial and ran into a GMC, cost her the use of her leg.

Motocycles? Don't get me started, I hear them racing up and down the 15 and 52 all the time... They use to scrape them off the 94 near Dulzura on the weekends when I lived there.

/rant

[zap]

I bet it is incredibly difficult to find one motorist who obey's the law……..yet there is respect for fellow motorists that is absent when it comes to cyclists.

[gdw]

"I bet it is incredibly difficult to find one motorist who obey's the law……..yet there is respect for fellow motorists that is absent when it comes to cyclists. "

True but the only law that most motorists regularly break is exceeding the speed limit by a few mph. Very few blow through stop signs and red lights without slowing down, drive on the sidewalks or against traffic, operate vehicles at night without lights, drive in chaotic packs, etc.

[67-59]

NoVa must be the exception. In Fla, Ga, NC, and NorCal, that's not the case, unfortunately.

NoVa isn't the only exception. Here in MN, most riders I see are riding reponsibly as well. Yes, I see some blow thorugh stop signs at 20 mph, but they are in a small minority.

[zap]

True but the only law that most motorists regularly break is exceeding the speed limit by a few mph.

The only time(s) I've seen motorists consistently use turn signals, come to a dead stop at a ss, not use mobile devices…..following every motoring rule that I can think of, are older drivers in some small town in the middle of nowhere USA.

I agree that it's nuts the way some cyclists ride. There are times when I say Darwin rule…….

But, in the grand scheme of life, I think there are those motorists who place blame on the whole group of us cyclists for the actions of some dimwits because it's easy.

The problem is cultural. The problem is education. The problem is enforcement.

My 2c. I wish everyone many happy and safe cycling miles.

[blessthismess]

"I bet it is incredibly difficult to find one motorist who obey's the law……..yet there is respect for fellow motorists that is absent when it comes to cyclists. "

True but the only law that most motorists regularly break is exceeding the speed limit by a few mph. Very few blow through stop signs and red lights without slowing down, drive on the sidewalks or against traffic, operate vehicles at night without lights, drive in chaotic packs, etc.


Gdw I agree with you and you do have a point. But, one thing I will add to the list of laws that motorists regularly break is illegal U-turns. I was creamed pretty good last year while riding (and obeying all laws) by a car doing just that. It hurt! I have a good scar on my knee and my finger still slips out of the socket every once and a while when feathering the brakes. I doubt the driver even remembers hitting me. I guess my point is that "with great power should come great responsibility" no?

[Saint Vitus]

The problem is cultural.



This.

I find Americans tend to have this black and white world view, and it often looks that way in the political realm. Whatever happened to gray? Like Miles Davis once supposedly said: "Free up your mind and your @$$ will follow"

[malcolm]

This.

I find Americans tend to have this black and white world view, and it often looks that way in the political realm. Whatever happened to gray? Like Miles Davis once supposedly said: "Free up your mind and your @$$ will follow"

What a generalization, I think there is like 200 million of us. Cycling is just not part of our culture and most state infrastructures are not built to properly accommodate it. There is some awesome forested hilly black top in my state and most if it has zero shoulder.

Cars are our culture. Children ride bikes. People drive to their mailbox. Anything that slows their progress doesn't have the right to be there. I suspect that is the mindset of many if not most motorists. They view bikes as causing danger or putting them in the position to hurt someone or get into an accident. As skewed as that may sound I've heard people express exactly that many times. They don't perceive themselves as the problem or the source of the danger.

[Saint Vitus]

What a generalization, I think there is like 200 million of us. Cycling is just not part of our culture and most state infrastructures are not built to properly accommodate it. There is some awesome forested hilly black top in my state and most if it has zero shoulder.

Cars are our culture. Children ride bikes. People drive to their mailbox. Anything that slows their progress doesn't have the right to be there. I suspect that is the mindset of many if not most motorists. They view bikes as causing danger or putting them in the position to hurt someone or get into an accident. As skewed as that may sound I've heard people express exactly that many times. They don't perceive themselves as the problem or the source of the danger.

Of course it's a generalization, because I meant it in a general sense that Americans have this tendency and not about bikes specifically, we just happen to be talking about cycling and how the non-cyclist's perceive cyclists. I think this American archetype is summed up pretty well by Eastwood's character in "Gran Torino" and surely the US is not the only place on earth with these tendencies either, it just that we have this righteousness that comes along for the ride, whether in a car or on a bike.

And as I said, if only people would free up their mind and think things through to a better degree (Kowalski did and took on a greater problem and saved several in the process at his own expense, a bit over the top example but it's what I opened with), maybe a better understanding on both sides would evolve from the process.

Look, I get cheesed off when I hear the rice rockets redlining up and down the highways or foolish teens racing their Integras and Civics on the same roads, because I know they'll get killed and or kill someone in the process, but how useful is it for me to do anything else but grumble about to my spouse? It's certainly not useful if I take any form of action however passive (such as the signage in the OP's 1st post). It would be better to help fund racing at Qualcomm stadium or some other such outreach doncha think?

[ptourkin]

I was out there today and had a nice ride. I stopped to take this shot

I would avoid east county and stay near the coast, plenty of great scenery and nice climbs to keep one interested

I gained 5,295 feet in 48 miles this morning and was passed by maybe 25 vehicles, all respectful. On the coast you're surrounded by cars in stop and go traffic. Unless you do Torrey or Soledad repeats, again, surrounded by cars, you can't find any challenging terrain. I find the coast, with people searching for beach parking and the danger of dooring, far more dangerous than anything that can happen out east. You'd be close to more cars in 1 minute than I was today in 4 hours.

Do you seriously deny yourself Mt. Laguna, Alpine (and the wonderful Alpine Brewing Company,) Mt. Palomar, and the Great Western Loop because of some deep-seeded fear of imagined "red necks." Bummer for you - people travel from all over to take advantage of this riding.

Finally, I'll add that the mountains of East County are stereotyped as the spot for older riders on titanium (mostly Holland) and i think that largely holds true. The majority of riders out east are careful and respectful. I'm sure there have been incidents where less clued-in riders have crossed lines but there isn't a lot of mayhem out there.

[Saint Vitus]

I was out there today and had a nice ride. I stopped to take this shot



I gained 5,295 feet in 48 miles this morning and was passed by maybe 25 vehicles, all respectful. On the coast you're surrounded by cars in stop and go traffic. Unless you do Torrey or Soledad repeats, again, surround by cars, you can find any challenging terrain. I find the coast, with people searching for beach parking and the danger of dooring, far more dangerous than anything that can happen out east. You'd be close to more cars in 1 minute than I was today in 4 hours.

Do you seriously deny yourself Mt. Laguna, Alpine (and the wonderful Alpine Brewing Company,) Mt. Palomar, and the Great Western Loop because of some deep-seeded fear of imagined "red necks." Bummer for you - people travel from all over to take advantage of this riding.

Finally, I'll add that the mountains of East County are stereotyped as the spot for older riders on titanium (mostly Holland) and i think that largely holds true. The majority of riders out east are careful and respectful. I'm sure there have been incidents where less clued-in riders have crossed lines but there isn't a lot of mayhem out there.

Ha! Take that you radneck sign mis-speeler!

Actually I deny myself those spots because I'll admit that I am a lousy climber and weak on descents, red necks notwithstanding (I've lived in So Georgia and know the species well).

I'm 50 and have Ti, so I should be in good stead when I'm ready for a back country tour...

[Bob Ross]

Obviously I missed the law that says cyclists behaving poorly and giving the rest of us a bad name is reason enough to maim or kill them all.

BikeSnob nailed this in his response to the recent NYTimes editorial:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2013/11/shafted-again.html

[bloody sunday]

I was out there today and had a nice ride. I stopped to take this shot



I gained 5,295 feet in 48 miles this morning and was passed by maybe 25 vehicles, all respectful. On the coast you're surrounded by cars in stop and go traffic. Unless you do Torrey or Soledad repeats, again, surrounded by cars, you can't find any challenging terrain. I find the coast, with people searching for beach parking and the danger of dooring, far more dangerous than anything that can happen out east. You'd be close to more cars in 1 minute than I was today in 4 hours.

Do you seriously deny yourself Mt. Laguna, Alpine (and the wonderful Alpine Brewing Company,) Mt. Palomar, and the Great Western Loop because of some deep-seeded fear of imagined "red necks." Bummer for you - people travel from all over to take advantage of this riding.

Finally, I'll add that the mountains of East County are stereotyped as the spot for older riders on titanium (mostly Holland) and i think that largely holds true. The majority of riders out east are careful and respectful. I'm sure there have been incidents where less clued-in riders have crossed lines but there isn't a lot of mayhem out there.
I think I only miss the beach simply because I don't live in San Diego anymore, and every chance I get, I'm driving (instead of flying) simply so I can take my bicycle and ride down there.

And I always rode on the weekdays in the early morning, so traffic and the like have never been a problem for me

[bloody sunday]

BikeSnob nailed this in his response to the recent NYTimes editorial:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2013/11/shafted-again.html

just living up to his name. he should maybe change it to "bikejerkhole"

[ptourkin]

Ha! Take that you radneck sign mis-speeler!

Actually I deny myself those spots because I'll admit that I am a lousy climber and weak on descents, red necks notwithstanding (I've lived in So Georgia and know the species well).

I'm 50 and have Ti, so I should be in good stead when I'm ready for a back country tour...

I'm in the 50/ti club too - and I find plenty of 60 year-olds out there that can crush me up the Wall. Avoid the Lyons Valley descent, which is twisty and hazardous and check Skyline Truck Trail to Jamul Drive, just a fun speedy drop with a nice roller coaster dip.

The beach is definitely an attactive spot when it's lightly traveled both by cars and the spandex hordes. I think more negative attention is generated out there by weekend roadies riding 4 abreast and running signs but there isn't a convenient place to post a sign. There have been some recent road diet improvements out there trying to give us a little more room but it's still tight.

[Bob Ross]

just living up to his name. he should maybe change it to "bikejerkhole"

We must live in very different biomes; I honestly can't imagine any cyclist in my city reading that and not thinking "yes, exactly!"

[flydhest]

gdw,
I have to completely disagree and agree with zap. in terms of percentages, where I ride, slightly more cyclists break the law, but it is not by a big margin and in numbers, far, far more drivers break the law. What I see is not just speeding either. That said, even if that were the case, why is it ok for cars to pick and choose which law to break but not cyclists? But like I said, around here, it is more than speeding. The stop sign at the end of my block routinely sees cars rolling through. My commute tells me that close to half of all drivers in NW DC talk on the phone (non hands free) while driving. Don't get me started on illegal u turns, driving in bike lanes, or using more than one lane at a time.

Given that drivers regularly violate the law, I don't see why they don't have to "earn respect" first before complaining about a minor inconvenience (not threats of violence) from cyclists.

[fiamme red]

BikeSnob nailed this in his response to the recent NYTimes editorial:
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2013/11/shafted-again.htmlBike Snob comes off like the most annoying sort of a smug, whining, angry, entitled NYC cyclist. That was the first time I've looked at his blog in months, and I want my three minutes back.

[Elefantino]

Bike Snob comes off like the most annoying sort of a smug, whining, angry, entitled NYC cyclist. That was the first time I've looked at his blog in months, and I want my three minutes back.
Me, too. Jeez. What a prick.

[bloody sunday]

We must live in very different biomes; I honestly can't imagine any cyclist in my city reading that and not thinking "yes, exactly!"
Yeah, I guess. He is called the bike snob for a reason.
Bike Snob comes off like the most annoying sort of a smug, whining, angry, entitled NYC cyclist. That was the first time I've looked at his blog in months, and I want my three minutes back.
exactly what I thought.

[flydhest]

another in the camp of those who agree with BikeSnob. is the difference based on whether one lives in a city or not? I don't know where everyone else lives (in tapatalk, the"location" doesn't show) do those who agree with BSNY live in cities and those who find him ... well, you know, do they live outside? seriously curious

[Saint Vitus]

another in the camp of those who agree with BikeSnob. is the difference based on whether one lives in a city or not? I don't know where everyone else lives (in tapatalk, the"location" doesn't show) do those who agree with BSNY live in cities and those who find him ... well, you know, do they live outside? seriously curious

I live in San Diego, pretty far both geographically and culturally from NYC and I find the Snob quite humorous and often spot on. Yes he is abrasive and he doesn't mince his words, but I find that refreshing, kind of like a brisk ride on a cold morning. He is opinionated, just like everyone else only he just speaks his mind which may be a good thing for a human to do sometimes...

[malcolm]

I don't really live in a real city more never ending sprawling suburbs. It's hard not to appreciate the snobs writing and ability to segment and critique an article. I personally like it as I do most of his stuff.

I think where he falls short is he expects people to think and be reasonable and act like compassionate human beings. This totally disregards human nature when confronted with an emotionally charged subject. They don't think it's mostly anger and brain stem. People's behavior in a motor vehicle is truly astounding and not just toward cyclists.

[Gummee]

People's behavior in a motor vehicle is truly astounding and not just toward cyclists.

This

I'm constantly amazed at the stupid stuff I see when I'm driving. There's pretty much a constant disregard for anything other than 'I'M getting ahead!'

There's really no repercussions, so people get away with it thinking its acceptable behavior. ...which it isn't, but how are you going to enforce that without getting into a collision?

M

[merlinmurph]

There's really no repercussions, so people get away with it thinking its acceptable behavior. ...
M

Yup on the repercussions part. People will do things from their car they wouldn't normally do because they are within the sanctity of their vehicle.

For example, giving someone the finger. People feel safe doing this because they're in their car, they'll speed away and never see you again - well, most of the time. ;-)

Years ago, I was riding in a wealthy MA town during my noon ride, on a windy country road, climbing uphill, when two kids in a jeep passed me and the passenger gave me the finger. Huh?

So, I start cranking (I was a lot younger then) hoping to maybe catch up to them somewhere knowing my chances were slim to none. I got out to a main road, took a left, and when I passed an ice cream place, there was a red jeep in the parking lot. I ended up having a conversation with two kids, one of which (the passenger) who said I was in the way. He didn't get to finish his ice cream.

Anyways, I think people need to be accountable for their actions when possible.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph

[beeatnik]

http://www.rivbike.com/kb_results.asp?ID=79

[malcolm]

Yup on the repercussions part. People will do things from their car they wouldn't normally do because they are within the sanctity of their vehicle.

For example, giving someone the finger. People feel safe doing this because they're in their car, they'll speed away and never see you again - well, most of the time. ;-)

Years ago, I was riding in a wealthy MA town during my noon ride, on a windy country road, climbing uphill, when two kids in a jeep passed me and the passenger gave me the finger. Huh?

So, I start cranking (I was a lot younger then) hoping to maybe catch up to them somewhere knowing my chances were slim to none. I got out to a main road, took a left, and when I passed an ice cream place, there was a red jeep in the parking lot. I ended up having a conversation with two kids, one of which (the passenger) who said I was in the way. He didn't get to finish his ice cream.

Anyways, I think people need to be accountable for their actions when possible.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph


I agree with the sanctity of their vehicle but I think it goes beyond that. It's something we do so much (driving) that we lose respect for it. We fail to realize that for most people it may be the most dangerous thing we do yet we treat it with complete disregard. There is also a sense of invisibility, from picking your nose to running people off the road. I see people doing both that would never consider such things outside their car.

[Elefantino]

Why is it acceptable for angry motorists to a) honk their horns incessantly at cyclists or, worse, b) swerve over just after passing a cyclist, and yet it is unacceptable for a cyclist to give either said motorist the finger?

Just asking ...

[bloody sunday]

Why is it acceptable for angry motorists to a) honk their horns incessantly at cyclists or, worse, b) swerve over just after passing a cyclist, and yet it is unacceptable for a cyclist to give either said motorist the finger?

Just asking ...

like this guy?
http://youtu.be/uC8B7huz1j4

[oldpotatoe]

like this guy?
http://youtu.be/uC8B7huz1j4

Joe Taddauchi and Dirk Freil..the driver actually went to court, found guilty and fined....mostly from the video.

[bloody sunday]

Joe Taddauchi and Dirk Freil..the driver actually went to court, found guilty and fined....mostly from the video.

Yeah, I read that - pretty great.

[smead]

A comparatively small group of both drivers AND cyclists give the larger population a bad name.

...

BBD

Unfortunately, what I see around my neck of the woods is not this - Most, certainly not all, but most motorists give me space. There are a few a-holes now and then, but for the most part, if I ride respectfully, I tend to avoid confrontations. OTOH, I find a far larger percentage of cyclists riding like Fing idiots, especially in large group rides. And yes, I pay for that time and time again when the angry guy in the truck brushes me too closely after he's been pissed off by a group of gumbies a mile earlier ... Grrr.

[oldpotatoe]

Unfortunately, what I see around my neck of the woods is not this - Most, certainly not all, but most motorists give me space. There are a few a-holes now and then, but for the most part, if I ride respectfully, I tend to avoid confrontations. OTOH, I find a far larger percentage of cyclists riding like Fing idiots, especially in large group rides. And yes, I pay for that time and time again when the angry guy in the truck brushes me too closely after he's been pissed off by a group of gumbies a mile earlier ... Grrr.

My observation also...cyclists need to clean their house. I don't think yelling at stoopid cyclists when riding is necessarily the answer but when riding, I think we as cyclists, don't do things like, run red lights..which I see everyday I ride.

Commuters seem to be a growing population of the above, as if they, as 'commuters onna bike', can follow some sort of special set of rules just for them.

IMHO

[Fishbike]

My observation also...cyclists need to clean their house. I don't think yelling at stoopid cyclists when riding is necessarily the answer but when riding, I think we as cyclists, don't do things like, run red lights..which I see everyday I ride.

Commuters seem to be a growing population of the above, as if they, as 'commuters onna bike', can follow some sort of special set of rules just for them.

IMHO

yup. Few things get me more peeved when behind the wheel than cyclists of all ilks who don't play by the rules. It's dangerous, makes us all look bad and makes it very difficult to change perceptions.

[flydhest]

do you feel the same way behind the wheel when drivers are breaking the rules? does that make all car drivers look bad? do they need to clean their house? here in DC, the number of drivers that break the law far exceeds the number of cyclists that do.

or is it just a double standard?

[professerr]

do you feel the same way behind the wheel when drivers are breaking the rules? does that make all car drivers look bad? do they need to clean their house? here in DC, the number of drivers that break the law far exceeds the number of cyclists that do.

or is it just a double standard?




I agree. People don’t hate pedestrians as a group because so many jaywalk all the time, walk against the light, or walk against traffic. And drivers speed all the time, never use turn signals, and rarely come to a complete stop before turning on red or at a stop sign. So I think the whole “cyclists need to clean their own house” argument is a red herring.

Sure, it would help if all cyclists did fewer stupid things, and I go out of my way to be courteous to cars. But I don’t think the animus many drivers have towards cyclists has much, if anything, to do with cyclists not stopping at stop signs or lights or signaling.

Drivers hate cyclists because we all block the road, riding too fast to easily drive around but slow enough to be really annoying. No amount of dismounting at a stop sign is going to change that. Heck, I find cyclists really annoying.

So rather than blame cyclists for failing to be Dudley Do-Rights, I think the behavior of drivers needs to be changed. In this regard, I really like the sort of laws in Europe mentioned in an earlier thread that put the onus on the cars to protect the weaker vehicle. That would change behavior here lickity-split. Everyone cycles, or knows many who do. Perhaps there will be a tipping point where one too many cyclist gets injured or killed and it triggers some sort of movement like MAAD or some celebrity-type push to change the traffic laws here to make drivers responsible in proportion to the danger they pose to cyclists.

Think we’ll never have that sort of socialist-Euro-bike-lover thing here? Witness the bikeshare program in NYC, promoted by a billionaire mayor and sponsored by a bank.

[Fishbike]

do you feel the same way behind the wheel when drivers are breaking the rules? does that make all car drivers look bad? do they need to clean their house? here in DC, the number of drivers that break the law far exceeds the number of cyclists that do.

or is it just a double standard?

Would bet anything that the percentage of cyclists that break the rules is much much higher. Let's face it, in an urban area you are not going to see THAT many drivers blow through red lights. On any given day you will see many cyclists blow through red lights.

Do I have a double standard? Don't think so. Bad drivers make me mad too. But cyclists are a small group, a group that is fighting for rights on the road and a group that I understand and identify with more than the typical driver.

[oldpotatoe]

I agree. People don’t hate pedestrians as a group because so many jaywalk all the time, walk against the light, or walk against traffic. And drivers speed all the time, never use turn signals, and rarely come to a complete stop before turning on red or at a stop sign. So I think the whole “cyclists need to clean their own house” argument is a red herring.

Sure, it would help if all cyclists did fewer stupid things, and I go out of my way to be courteous to cars. But I don’t think the animus many drivers have towards cyclists has much, if anything, to do with cyclists not stopping at stop signs or lights or signaling.

Drivers hate cyclists because we all block the road, riding too fast to easily drive around but slow enough to be really annoying. No amount of dismounting at a stop sign is going to change that. Heck, I find cyclists really annoying.

So rather than blame cyclists for failing to be Dudley Do-Rights, I think the behavior of drivers needs to be changed. In this regard, I really like the sort of laws in Europe mentioned in an earlier thread that put the onus on the cars to protect the weaker vehicle. That would change behavior here lickity-split. Everyone cycles, or knows many who do. Perhaps there will be a tipping point where one too many cyclist gets injured or killed and it triggers some sort of movement like MAAD or some celebrity-type push to change the traffic laws here to make drivers responsible in proportion to the danger they pose to cyclists.

Think we’ll never have that sort of socialist-Euro-bike-lover thing here? Witness the bikeshare program in NYC, promoted by a billionaire mayor and sponsored by a bank.

Nope and Nope. Like it or don't, riding a bike is still a teeny segment of the general population in the USA. Even here in cycling mad Republic of Boulder, it's still small. South of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Mississippi, even less so.

My big gripe is cyclists running red lights. Cars don't do that. When there is a public discussion session about cyclist's rights here in the republic, rude, law breaking cyclists always comes up...even on trails, for a reason. Maybe is different where you live.

[zap]

Every motorist walks and appreciates what it's like to be a pedestrian. Not many ride bicycles here in the USA so motorists have no concept what it's like.

Wouldnt it be cool if riding a bicycle was a requirement to get/renew a drivers license...........

....so mr/ms future motorist, how do you feel standing here at this empty intersection waiting for your light to turn green. Don't worry about the car coming up behind you at 35mph, they will stop......

[smead]

Every motorist walks and appreciates what it's like to be a pedestrian. Not many ride bicycles here in the USA so motorists have no concept what it's like.

Wouldnt it be cool if riding a bicycle was a requirement to get/renew a drivers license...........

....so mr/ms future motorist, how do you feel standing here at this empty intersection waiting for your light to turn green. Don't worry about the car coming up behind you at 35mph, they will stop......

Pretty simple - as you approach an empty intersection w/ a red light, check your mirror (or for those too vain to wear one, crank your neck). If cars are a comin, stay to the right and let them trip the light. No need to take the lane or to blow the red light in front of them, thus pissing them off. If no cars are coming and noone is around to see you roll a red light, no one will see your deed. I certainly do the latter, but only when no other cars are around to see it or to help me trip a light.

Just common sense - don't flagrantly violate rules of the road for everyone to see and judge ...

[zap]

Regarding my post, think beyond red....or substitute intersection with motorist driving by a cyclist with little room.

I was throwing something out there.