Haven't seen this here yet (warning: Lance interview) [Archive]

pbarry

11-05-2013, 08:17 PM

I haven't read/listened to the interview... In the real world:

Part I: I was a teenage triathlete with excellent results and decided to be a bike racer. Became a bike racer and was a middle-of-the pack-guy and did ok in one day races.

Part II: Got cancer, (maybe you didn't know), and kicked it. With the help of a wonderful European doctor, who tended me for a decade after I was in remission, I won the TDF 7 times with the help of my team mates, (who were also tended to by my wonderful doctor).. Started a foundation that primarily boosted my media luster.... err, I mean, saved lives and created awareness. I squelched any innuendo or suggestion that I might not be clean, with my cancer story, and ruined the lives of those who brought up any accusation, with an army of lawyers, PR firms, my control of the press, and leveraged my contracts with sponsors to remove naysayers from their payroll, (remember, I had cancer).

Part III: After I'd helped so many in the cycling industry, my team mates turned on me and turned me in. I was disgraced and stripped of my titles, (though everyone knows I am still the King). And my GF, a dozen GFs ago, also ratted me out. I'm a victim. Everyone does it.

Part IV: Set about rehabilitating my image. No one would listen, so I just said the same refrain louder and more often. Still, no one listened....

dana_e

11-05-2013, 08:57 PM

the blow by blow for me is interesting

I read all that came out last october

made my tummy ache

anyway

what a f'ed up world

Was friends swith Steve Larsen, one of the dudes who got tossed aside as the "program" was put forth

christian

11-05-2013, 09:03 PM

Nah, he's starting to lay it out there. Identifying when Motorola went on the program, discussing the changing relationship between the media and the cyclists.

Louis

11-05-2013, 09:06 PM

Why do people still care about this stuff?

christian

11-05-2013, 09:19 PM

Because, fundamentally, this is the narrative of American cycling for the last 20 years, which is as long as some of us have been following it.

I really fell in love with cycling in the early to mid-nineties, following the Rominger vs. Indurain battles, and the super teams of Once, Banesto, and Mapei. There was, among cycling fans, no expectation that the riders were clean; they occupied a space in the cycling world that was as remote from us as astronauts from people with kites. We didn't pretend to understand that world or the demands on the racers, but we certainly knew they weren't racing pan y agua. It was all part of the color of the sport. They'd get popped every now and again, make an excuse, wink, sit out a couple years, and the show would go on. The media was in on it, the fans were in on it, the UCI didn't have any way of policing it, so they sat on their hands and hoped for the best.

Lance changed ALL that. When cycling became a "big" sport in America, thanks to Lance's exploits, Lance had to quell all those rumors and all that baggage of the sport, and proclaim from the rooftops that he was clean, even if those dirty euros weren't. I think when he won the Worlds and San Sebastian, no one cared. But after cancer and the string of TdFs, it became the overarching narrative. He'd beat cancer, he'd won the tour, he'd done something no one else had.

For those of us who were old fans, it all seemed a bit improbable. You weren't riding with people like Virenque and Pantani without rocket boosters. You just weren't. Yet saying this in polite company would get you yelled at. (I remember a New Year's Eve 2002 when someone asked me about Lance and whether I thought he was doping, and I said something like, "He's a great cyclist, and of course he's doping; they're all doping." and was screamed at by an acquaintance for slandering "an American hero.")

And yet, it seemed ever more improbably and Lance's defenders ever more implacable. And because of the heightened (and perhaps more hostile) media attention (French, British and American), the whole thing just had to unravel. And then it did.

But it's certainly the primary morality play and the overarching narrative of the last 20 years in cycling. Before, doping was part of the game. Now, separating the doping and the cycling, and the partial confessions and cynical apologies, is the game.

Is cycling in a better place because of it now? I doubt it. But it's a hell of a story.

Meanwhile, the NFL plays on...

Louis

11-05-2013, 09:21 PM

Meanwhile, the NFL plays on...

Time to pay $15k to your teammates so they can go party in Vegas.

christian

11-05-2013, 09:26 PM

I've been sending $50 a week to Happycampyer, Jack Brunk, and pdmtong since I joined the forum. Is that not necessary?

Louis

11-05-2013, 09:27 PM

I've been sending $50 a week to Happycampyer, Jack Brunk, and pdmtong since I joined the forum. Is that not necessary?

Only if you still consider yourself a rookie.

pbarry

11-05-2013, 09:39 PM

Time to pay $15k to your teammates so they can go party in Vegas.

Many teams have a tradition of requiring rookies to pay the bill at an annual steakhouse dinner, with free-flowing liquor, where tabs run into the tens of thousands of dollars. One report Monday said Martin was pressured to pay $15,000 toward a trip to Las Vegas that he did not attend. In 2010, Dallas receiver Dez Bryant paid a $54,896 tab. [Emphasis added]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/sports/football/for-the-nfl-a-question-of-hazing-or-abuse.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hp

Nooch

11-06-2013, 01:32 PM

to be thorough, here's part two: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview-part-2

rain dogs

11-06-2013, 02:46 PM

to be thorough, here's part two: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview-part-2

I wish some reporters would start asking strong questions, which follow Lance's recent logic.

1. LA has always said “It was impossible to win the Tour de France in my time without doping,”
2. Lance is a guy who always wanted to win, and had no fear of tests because he knew "I was not going to test positive. Ever. No."
3. He is a guy that required the entire TdF team to be on the program to be one of the 9 riders
5. LA is now adamant he was clean during his comeback (from 2009 on)

So, what changed? If it was impossible to win without doping, how did he come to terms with either: A. prioritizing riding clean when he had never done so in his history, or B. giving up on winning and riding for a top result, when he always wanted to win?

It doesn't make sense. It's a complete paradigm shift and if he did ride clean and thought he could win, it contradicts everything he has said prior about the need to dope?

Hopefully there are some real questions in Parts 3 and 4.

christian

11-06-2013, 02:49 PM

Maybe, just maybe, he realized he wasn't going to win anyway, so why take the risk of testing positive with no upside?

I'm actually sort of blown away by how candid the guy is being. Sure, some softball questions, but this is curtains back stuff, innit?

54ny77

11-06-2013, 02:58 PM

rain dogs

11-06-2013, 04:25 PM

Maybe, just maybe, he realized he wasn't going to win anyway, so why take the risk of testing positive with no upside?

I'm interested in what he was thinking. He may or may not know what Contador and his other rivals did/did not do during the Tour, but he would have guessed (and that best guess, would likely dictate his decisions). He and Bruyneel would have known what Contador was planning in 2009.

He said before the race:

"I'll kick their asses," he told author John Wilcockson. "The 2008 Tour was a bit of a joke. I've got nothing against Sastre … or Christian Vande Velde. Christian's a nice guy, but finishing fifth in the Tour de France? Come on!"

even in December 2009 at the 2010 Tour presentation Armstrong was talking about beating, or at least being competitive with Contador at the 2010 Tour:

"I come from the perspective from being on the team with him, I saw physically how good he was in the race, I also saw mentally and emotionally how strong he is off the bike,” he added. “I'm not a fool, I've sized up plenty of competition in my day, and he's going to be very difficult to beat."

Doesn't sound like the same guy to me, and it doesn't align with a guy who said you can't win clean, but now claims he tried to.

oldpotatoe

11-07-2013, 06:42 AM

i'd enjoy reading about the specifics (the recipes) and the enablers (individuals and/or organizations).

the athletes themselves are pawns. guilty, sure, but i'd like to see the puppetmasters get thrown in the fire.

LA ran that team, Bruyneel was the 'puppet'. He, like a lot of others, got wealthy participating in this scam. Hit them in the wallet, IMHO. Along with the likes of Hincapie, other 'nice guys' who also cheated for big $.

54ny77

11-07-2013, 09:43 AM

dana i raced against him as a junior. well, let me clarify that: the only time we were in a comparable position was at the start line, as in not moving! once the bell went off he went buh-bye... what a phenomenal natural talent. so sad to hear of it when he passed.

i remember one year he won the cal junior rr up in bakersfield then later in day rode the elite race and won that, beating some pretty heavy pros at the time. he rode in by himself, it was minutes before the next one came in.

what a f'ed up world

Was friends swith Steve Larsen, one of the dudes who got tossed aside as the "program" was put forth

Nooch

11-07-2013, 09:47 AM

part 3: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview-part-3

fiamme red

11-07-2013, 09:56 AM

Interesting stuff.

DB: He was standing up and talking about the culture in the peloton but what about Simeoni?

LA: The Simeoni episode was a mistake. There was no reason for me to act that way. To get on his wheel when he’s attacking was uncalled for and a big mistake. It made too big of a statement and there was no need for that.

DB: Was it a mistake that you did something publicly or a mistake that you even went for him?

LA: All of it was a mistake. I should have ignored it but there are more than one of those examples. That attitude, that mentality, that brashness.

christian

11-07-2013, 10:37 AM

Lance Armstrong, apparently more self-aware than we gave him credit for!

Louis

11-07-2013, 11:52 AM

Lance Armstrong, apparently more self-aware than we gave him credit for!

None of it, the doping, the attitude, the "crush your enemies," none of it was my fault. My brashness made me do it. That wasn't the true me, the cuddly, the Lovable Lance.

54ny77

11-07-2013, 11:53 AM

I venture it's all part of an exquisitely and carefully crafted PR strategy.

Lance Armstrong, apparently more self-aware than we gave him credit for!

Formulasaab

11-07-2013, 12:42 PM

I haven't read/listened to the interview... In the real world:

Part I: I was a teenage triathlete with excellent results and decided to be a bike racer. Became a bike racer and was a middle-of-the pack-guy and did ok in one day races.

To be fair, that's underselling his pre-doping accomplishments. His first two years as a pro were pretty outstanding.

Vientomas

11-07-2013, 12:50 PM

I venture it's all part of an exquisitely and carefully crafted PR strategy.

Agreed. From all appearances, Lance does nothing that is not calculated.

Elefantino

11-07-2013, 01:54 PM

Just finished "Wheelmen" ... none of the major facts are a surprise, but the behind-the-scenes maneuvering is fascinating.

laupsi

11-07-2013, 02:00 PM

About half way through it myself

christian

11-07-2013, 02:07 PM

My brashness made me do it.LOVE this.

bironi

11-07-2013, 04:18 PM

Just look at how he answers questions about apologizing to those he ran over. He's lying as clearly as he did at every press conference. The guy has no remorse, no regrets.

The video begins at 12:00 in. fast forward to how Betsy answers questions concerning Lance's apology. Total bull - total Lance.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/video/watch-live-panel-discusses-the-armstrong-lie-film_302236

54ny77

11-07-2013, 04:40 PM

Vaughters is such a hypocrite. He talks a lot of blah blah blah as to why it took him so long to speak out.

Gee, do ya think jail (perjury) was probably the biggest motivator?

The guy fed from the same trough/rising tide. Had he echoed the truth of what Betsy was saying 10+ years ago, and admitted his own past publicly, do ya think he'd have gone on to the successes he's had by running his teams?

bironi

11-07-2013, 05:08 PM

No. You are correct.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

pbarry

11-07-2013, 06:15 PM

To be fair, that's underselling his pre-doping accomplishments. His first two years as a pro were pretty outstanding.

Pre-doping?? You might want to re-read Betsy Andreau's testimony. The meeting with the physician during the initial cancer screening is one of the key smoking guns in the long charade.

#campyuserftw

11-07-2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:
DB: He was standing up and talking about the culture in the peloton but what about Simeoni?

LA: The Simeoni episode was a mistake. There was no reason for me to act that way. To get on his wheel when he�s attacking was uncalled for and a big mistake. It made too big of a statement and there was no need for that.

DB: Was it a mistake that you did something publicly or a mistake that you even went for him?

LA: All of it was a mistake. I should have ignored it but there are more than one of those examples. That attitude, that mentality, that brashness.
__________________

Interesting stuff.

Lance could slice off his last nut, and most still won't hear his apology(ies). Hate is hate, and I hate Jonathan Vaughter's sideburns; there's more than two handfuls of absolute, total, utter weasels, liars, sneaks, who doped, cheated, and went home with women, money, and fame. Three things they didn't earn, but they took em' all.

Lance is the worst, because he wore the crown of the King. Lance's words above regarding Simeoni sadly seem to impact the Lance haters about 0.00%

I hope Lance is a good dad. A good man. He was one helluva cyclist, the best of the best, and they were all high as Elton John in the 70's. If he can apologize, admit and make it right with his own family, that's all he needs to do; he claimed his son's defense of him was the spark, allowing an epiphany that he needed to tell the truth. If true, that kinda says it all.

Good is good (and bad is bad):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjBzVm_vM8

:beer:

Louis

11-07-2013, 07:37 PM

Lance could slice off his last nut, and most still won't hear his apology(ies). Hate is hate, and I hate Jonathan Vaughter's sideburns;

I don't believe Lance's self-serving statements, ergo I hate him?

Interesting.

TRACK

11-07-2013, 07:59 PM

havent read it.. did he mention doping?

mgm777

11-07-2013, 10:05 PM

Betsy Andreu...

She consistently portrays herself as a victim of Lance's bullying and a champion for the truth. However, by her own admission, during a Australian Broadcasting Company's interview, she admits that after being invited to stay in the room while Lance met with his doctors, October 27, 1996, in a conference room at a hospital in Indy, and after hearing Lance admit to using steroids, etc., she immediately went and told four of her close friends what Lance admitted to his doctors.

When I consider this in the context of my own life, it just doesn't sit well with me.

I cannot imagine going to visit my wife's best friend, who by all accounts is possibly terminally ill, and at best, fighting for her life. Because of the close friendship, being allowed to stay in the room while my wife's best friend confers with her doctors. Then based on what I heard, immediately leave the hospital and disclose to my friends what I heard my wife's gravely sick friend tell her doctors.

That is not right by any normal, human decency measure.

To be clear, I am not defending Lance nor his actions. I just don't think Betsy is as much of a victim as she claims to be.

alessandro

11-07-2013, 10:31 PM

If he can apologize, admit and make it right with his own family, that's all he needs to do

Yeah... No. That's a ridiculously narrow view, and part of the whole BS narrative of 'they all did it, so doping is really a victimless crime' narrative.

You're being played. He just wants his ban reduced so he can compete again, and this campaign is just Lance being Lance.

cachagua

11-07-2013, 11:45 PM

You're being played. This campaign is just Lance being Lance.

And the opposing campaign is who being whom?

And who's being played by them?

Formulasaab

11-08-2013, 07:53 AM

Pre-doping?? You might want to re-read Betsy Andreau's testimony. The meeting with the physician during the initial cancer screening is one of the key smoking guns in the long charade.

Sure. Happy to check the source as best I can.
http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Andreu+Betsy+Affidavit.pdf

There is nothing in her testimony that says anything about 1992-1993 that I can find. As close as it gets is in item #14 that in October of 1996: "Among the questions asked by the doctor with dark hair and glasses was whether Lance had used performance enhancing drugs. Lance responded that he had taken EPO, testosterone, growth hormone, cortisone, and steroids."

By Lance's own admission in the interview that started this thread, apart from cortisone, those things took place after the "tectonic shift" in the winter between '93 and '94.

There's no conflict between the two statements that I can see.

laupsi

11-08-2013, 08:00 AM

I hope Lance is a good dad. A good man. He was one helluva cyclist, the best of the best, and they were all high as Elton John in the 70's. If he can apologize, admit and make it right with his own family, that's all he needs to do; he claimed his son's defense of him was the spark, allowing an epiphany that he needed to tell the truth. If true, that kinda says it all.

Good is good (and bad is bad):

:beer:

Lance is a sociopath clear and simple. he cannot help/save himself from himself. there is no remorse except that he's now hurting and is trying to dig out.

Nooch

11-08-2013, 08:01 AM

and let's finish it off with part 4: http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview-part-4

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 08:12 AM

[QUOTE=alessandro;1448715He just wants his ban reduced so he can compete again.[/QUOTE]

He should be allowed to compete again. The penalties given to him for his cheating and lies, should be equal to, the same as, the standard given to all other cyclists. Hate for someone cannot change laws, just as love should not.

Penalize Lance, and then if he chooses to ride, swim or run again, so be it. If not, remove Jonathan Vaughters from his team, Frankie Andreu from tv, Ryder Hesjedal from racing, and everyone of these people are now also banned for life:

http://www.usada.org/sanctions/

How many just quietly retired lol?

Ryan Braun did the lowest thing we've seen in sports yet: doped and then called out the religion-card:

http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/8/18/4635120/ryan-braun-urine-collector-anti-semitic

If you can cheat and either accuse the 'law', the testers, either racists, or religionist...you're the biggest dirtbag in all of sports. Lance was a horrific longterm liar. I put Ryan Braun above him in my book.

Take back all of Miguel Indurain's jerseys and everyone's...from 1992 onward. They were all sociopaths. Lied the same lie. Lived the same lie. They are all the same.

laupsi

11-08-2013, 08:19 AM

They were all sociopaths. Lied the same lie. Lived the same lie. They are all the same.

The may have all lied but lying does not make a sociopath. LA is a sociopath for a whole different set of reasons.

so�ci�o�path
/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/

noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths

1. a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 08:24 AM

The may have all lied but lying does not make a sociopath. LA is a sociopath for a whole different set of reasons.

so�ci�o�path
/ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/

noun: sociopath; plural noun: sociopaths

1. a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

Let's pretend he is. Pretend internet armchair psychologists or even real ones deem him as one. Who cares? What's illegal about that? How many US Presidents, CEO's and human beings are sociopaths? It has nothing to do with the facts, rules and law; Lance lied, cheated, broke rules, so fine him, discipline him and do it based on biking, not perceived ideas of who he is. It's about rules. It's not about the bike. It's not about internet-diagnosis such as mental illness, it's about the blood.

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance, that losers like Ryder Hesjedal skate right by.

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

oldpotatoe

11-08-2013, 08:27 AM

I don't believe Lance's self-serving statements, ergo I hate him?

Interesting.

LA is 100% self serving. He cares zero about 'the sport'. He is interested in some sort of forgiveness, by claiming that since they all doped, he shouldn't have been singled out and hammered. He......just.....doesn't.....get it.

'Good man', good father?. He is a liar, tough to get past that. The turd is on the linoleum floor.

Every time he talks he tries to explain that away.

As for 'hate'? A guy who races a bicycle, WHOGAS.

laupsi

11-08-2013, 08:37 AM

Let's pretend he is. Pretend internet armchair psychologists or even real ones deem him as one. Who cares? What's illegal about that? How many US Presidents, CEO's and human beings are sociopaths? It has nothing to do with the facts, rules and law; Lance lied, cheated, broke rules, so fine him, discipline him and do it based on biking, not perceived ideas of who he is. It's about rules. It's not about the bike. It's not about internet-diagnosis such as mental illness, it's about the blood.

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance, that losers like Ryder Hesjedal skate right by.

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

Look I never once posted that LA should be treated differently because he is a sociopath. I am simply stating he is a sociopath. LA cannot and will not change his stripes and those who believe his current testimony are fools. As for hate, I don't know him so I have no reason to hate him. I can say for certain his is a tragic and very predictable story. Shakespeare would have had a field day w/him.

alessandro

11-08-2013, 09:11 AM

He should be allowed to compete again. The penalties given to him for his cheating and lies, should be equal to, the same as, the standard given to all other cyclists. Hate for someone cannot change laws, just as love should not.

Penalize Lance, and then if he chooses to ride, swim or run again, so be it. If not, remove Jonathan Vaughters from his team, Frankie Andreu from tv, Ryder Hesjedal from racing, and everyone of these people are now also banned for life:

http://www.usada.org/sanctions/

How many just quietly retired lol?

Take back all of Miguel Indurain's jerseys and everyone's...from 1992 onward. They were all sociopaths. Lied the same lie. Lived the same lie. They are all the same.

Owww, it's all so massively unfair!

That is also BS, and part of the same dumb disparate treatment theme that Lance is pushing. They're not all the same, as shown by the mountains of evidence. First, Lance was the capo of a continuing criminal enterprise centered on doping and extended to bribery, witness intimidation, tampering, extortion, eavesdropping, and more. Second and more important, he was given plenty of opportunity to talk to USADA before they dropped the banhammer on him, and he not only refused but countersued, with at least one example being that silly attempt to get an injunction against USADA with a judge in Austin.

You know the rules, such as they are: A first offense for doping does not get you banned for life, and there's a reduced penalty for cooperating with the authorities. VDV's or Zabriskie's pattern of behavior does not equal Lance's.

He could have reduced his penalty by cooperating, but he couldn't bring himself to do that, it appears that none of his advisors ever sat him down and told him that he really could lose it all.

He's also careful to continue pushing the line that he wasn't using in 2009-2010, so that all his previous offenses were old enough to fall outside WADA's 8-year statute of limitations.

Even in his penalty phase, Lance is unique among riders.

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 09:20 AM

___________ was the capo of a continuing criminal enterprise centered on doping and extended to bribery, witness intimidation, tampering, extortion, eavesdropping, and more. Second and more important, he was given plenty of opportunity to talk to USADA before they dropped the banhammer on him, and he not only refused but countersued.

Insert Floyd Landis into the blank spot above.
Insert Floyd's penalties unto Lance.
Moveoninthepeloton.org*

* = a group assembled to get the greatest sociopath off the hook. Something about EPO on a blue dress.

alessandro

11-08-2013, 09:21 AM

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

I don't hate Lance. He's not a decent human being, but I don't hate him. What I do hate is the Lance effect. He's the collapsed star that draws everything into its vortex, so any discussion of doping inevitably turns into a rehashed argument about Lance, discussions of tour winners sooner or later turn to Lance, and conversations about bike racing get sucked into Lance's wheel.

He's over and done with. He needs to accept that and find another career.

laupsi

11-08-2013, 09:21 AM

i don't hate lance. He's not a decent human being, but i don't hate him. What i do hate is the lance effect. He's the collapsed star that draws everything into its vortex, so any discussion of doping inevitably turns into a rehashed argument about lance, discussions of tour winners sooner or later turn to lance, and conversations about bike racing get sucked into lance's wheel.

He's over and done with. He needs to accept that and find another career.

+1

alessandro

11-08-2013, 09:28 AM

Insert Floyd Landis into the blank spot above.
Insert Floyd's penalties unto Lance.
Moveoninthepeloton.org*

* = a group assembled to get the greatest sociopath off the hook. Something about EPO on a blue dress.

Come on, make a real argument. This isn't even close. Sure, Floyd lied, took people's money on bad faith, wrote a book etc., but he in no way resembles Lance. Are you still mad at Floyd for dropping the big dime on Lance or something?

alessandro

11-08-2013, 09:33 AM

You're being played. This campaign is just Lance being Lance.

And the opposing campaign is who being whom?

And who's being played by them?

This response by throwing back a short question or two is classic troll behavior. I almost liked you better when you were showing off your sweeping command of the Great Books.

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 09:40 AM

Come on, make a real argument. This isn't even close. Sure, Floyd lied, took people's money on bad faith, wrote a book etc., but he in no way resembles Lance. Are you still mad at Floyd for dropping the big dime on Lance or something?

Facts: Floyd did everything you state Lance did (as the capo of a continuing criminal enterprise centered on doping and extended to bribery, witness intimidation, tampering, extortion, eavesdropping, and more. Second and more important, he was given plenty of opportunity to talk to USADA before they dropped the banhammer on him, and he not only refused but countersued). Floyd went after friggin computer hard drives lol. Floyd went after LeMond's sexual abuse. Horrible human being driven by greed.

Fact: Floyd was given a penalty, "He was suspended from professional competition through January 30, 2009, following an arbitration panel's 2-to-1 ruling on September 20, 2007." Floyd rode again. Again, Floyd Landis raced again.

Real argument? The facts of the case above extend deeply into the debate and it's not about dropping the dime on Lance, it's about upholding equal justice; all bus seats on the same cost the same and anyone can sit anywhere they want on the bus. Lance doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus because people 'want' him to, and he doesn't have to get thrown off or under the bus due to a lynching. He can sit where he chooses, take the penalty and move onward.

CunegoFan

11-08-2013, 09:46 AM

There's so much hatred and resentment towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

There is so much idol worship and homerism towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

Get over it. Armstrong was caught and exposed for what he is. People like you are taking it harder than Armstrong himself.

alessandro

11-08-2013, 09:56 AM

Floyd went after LeMond's sexual abuse. Horrible human being driven by greed.

This was pretty disgusting.

Fact: Floyd was given a penalty, "He was suspended from professional competition through January 30, 2009, following an arbitration panel's 2-to-1 ruling on September 20, 2007." Floyd rode again. Again, Floyd Landis raced again.

Real argument? The facts of the case above extend deeply into the debate and it's not about dropping the dime on Lance, it's about upholding equal justice; all bus seats on the same cost the same and anyone can sit anywhere they want on the bus. Lance doesn't have to sit in the back of the bus because people 'want' him to, and he doesn't have to get thrown off or under the bus due to a lynching. He can sit where he chooses, take the penalty and move onward.

Lance didn't get equal treatment because the magnitude of his offenses was far greater, and the degree of his cooperation was zero. Why is that so hard to understand? Floyd starting talking when he'd lost everything. Lance isn't there yet, and he doesn't seem to be embracing what he has to do. Also, he wasn't lynched or burned at the stake by a mob, he was banned after a lengthy legal proceeding with plenty of warning and notice given, a procedure that has held up. If the USADA's actions against him had contained procedural weaknesses or other legal shortcomings, Lance's team of attorneys would have found them and used them to blow the case apart.

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 10:05 AM

There is so much idol worship and homerism towards Lance that many people cannot apply law, logic and reason.

There is so much hatred is my point. There is so much hatred that most cannot apply law, logic and reason. The stick is sharpened on both ends. Lance's doping cannot be punished on the internet, it must go to proper judgment in a court, where justice through equality of laws must be applied.

You like Cunego. Do you want to "believe" he won the Giro clean:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/19/damiano-cunego-doping-charges-cycling

Rueda Tropical

11-08-2013, 11:48 AM

Armstrong has recently spelled out why he is different then other dopers in interviews:

He recently apologized for using cancer victims as a cover for his doping.

He said he wished he had not been so aggressive and in your face about his denials. It wasn't needed and in hindsight not so smart.

He says he regrets chasing down Simeoni. It was uncalled for and totally over the top.

That's just what I have seen him say recently. It wasn't just his doping.

TPetsch

11-08-2013, 11:55 AM

Hey, on another note "The Tomatometer" shows 91% for "The Armstrong Lie".

Looks like Lance has a fallback career as an actor in films about doping pro cyclists that lie. :rolleyes:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_armstrong_lie_2013/

PQJ

11-08-2013, 12:40 PM

There is so much hatred is my point. There is so much hatred that most cannot apply law, logic and reason. The stick is sharpened on both ends. Lance's doping cannot be punished on the internet, it must go to proper judgment in a court, where justice through equality of laws must be applied.

You like Cunego. Do you want to "believe" he won the Giro clean:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/19/damiano-cunego-doping-charges-cycling

I think you use the word 'hate' way too loosely. The only 'hate' I see is coming from those who seem to hate the so-called haters because they see Lance for what he is. Why do you feel so compelled to defend him as you do?

Separately, I get the distinct feeling that I know you (virtually, at least); you remind of someone who has been here under numerous guises. Probably me just be a cynical, skeptical 'hater,' and for that you have my apology.

CunegoFan

11-08-2013, 01:04 PM

There is so much hatred is my point. There is so much hatred that most cannot apply law, logic and reason. The stick is sharpened on both ends. Lance's doping cannot be punished on the internet, it must go to proper judgment in a court, where justice through equality of laws must be applied.

You like Cunego. Do you want to "believe" he won the Giro clean:

I was never naive enough or dumb enough to think anyone wins anything of significance in euro pro cycling without drugs. Before races we used to hit a 7-11 and load up on coffee, Mini Thins, the ephedrine/ephedra stuff they used to sell. It was idiocy to think the pros would not be doing more when real money and livelihoods were on the line.

You really need to get over it before Landis walks away with five million of your hero's ill-gotten loot.

54ny77

11-08-2013, 06:09 PM

gotta listen to this, absolutely brilliant rendition of radiohead's "creep."

http://vimeo.com/58191312#

it's eye-watering funny. :banana:

merlincustom1

11-08-2013, 11:09 PM

There is so much hatred is my point. There is so much hatred that most cannot apply law, logic and reason. The stick is sharpened on both ends. Lance's doping cannot be punished on the internet, it must go to proper judgment in a court, where justice through equality of laws must be applied.

You like Cunego. Do you want to "believe" he won the Giro clean:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/19/damiano-cunego-doping-charges-cycling

I think you fail to appreciate that only law, logic, and reason was applied in both LA 's and Floyd's cases. Usada tried its case against Floyd, based on a specific charge, and the evidence adduced by the arbitrators led to the ban that he served. Usada didn't have to try its case against LA, because LA refused to play. As such, all of the allegations against him were deemed admitted, and a lifetime ban had to be imposed. It's really that simple.

merlincustom1

11-08-2013, 11:18 PM

He should be allowed to compete again. The penalties given to him for his cheating and lies, should be equal to, the same as, the standard given to all other cyclists. Hate for someone cannot change laws, just as love should not.

If you'd read the reasoned decision, you'd realize that his lifetime ban was completely appropriate, as the allegations were deemed admitted by LA's failure to subject himself to arbitration. Hell, Kirk O'Bee was given a lifetime ban for a lot less.

cachagua

11-08-2013, 11:54 PM

What I hate is the Lance effect... any discussion of doping inevitably turns into a rehashed argument about Lance, discussions of tour winners sooner or later turn to Lance, and conversations about bike racing get sucked into Lance...

Are you sure you hate this? It sounds to me like you're the last guy who'd be willing to let it go. Actually, letting it go and forgetting about it was exactly what I was suggesting, when I said the scandal is being perpetuated by people whose paycheck depends on everyone's continued attention. Only I was too blind, albeit well-read, and had missed the lessons of a couple thousand years of history, so I didn't manage to get that across -- perhaps you remember.

Now, "troll" -- I don't know what "troll" is. Let me try the questions another way: you say Lance's current campaign is just Lance being Lance. So, the opposing campaign -- who is it, would you say, who is just being who they are, and it results in the moral condemnation and vengefulness toward Lance that's so widespread? And: the people who are filled with that lynch-mob vengefulness -- would you say that rather than being sold the idea through the media, they. . . thought it up themselves?

You can probably guess that I believe the former. Albert Einstein used to say that "ignorance is the most violent element in society", and I can't credit people who hold such violent ideas with the imagination to come up with them themselves.

But if you really hate the way that all conversations turn to Lance, then -- don't turn your conversations to Lance. Problem solved.

#campyuserftw

11-08-2013, 11:57 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/05/contact-lance-armstrong-uci-reconciliation

Did the person who doped, pulled LA through France, lying to his wife about drugs, conspired against the peloton, lied to family and friends, admitted in 2006 that he doped in 1999, learned about drugs in 1995...may not have told anyone had his wife, Betsy, not found a thermos of EPO in their home refrigerator in 1999, promised her he'd quit, then oops, rode extremely strong in 2000, while staying on as Assistant USPS Director in 2001, and 2002, to a team he knew was doping...then went on to announce professional cycling for years, Director for Rock Racing, which had four known dopers. He then worked with Proman, a pro women's team, then Kenda and now with the utmost irony, he works with a team organized by the International Cycling Union, UCI Continental, and hawks with greater humor, '5 Hour Energy'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_PW_oKtbw

He doesn't have any jerseys to give back. His palmares are that of a pure lieutenant; Frankie Andreu doped, and knowingly pulled a doper around France. Yet, everyone likes him, feels sorry for him and he's one of nearly twenty or more names we know, dopers we know, whom we've given a free pass to; they remain in the sport in some capacity, taking money and imo, still stealing.

Ban them all. Pete Rose style. They aren't allowed in the ball park, parking lot, and cannot be affiliated with professional cycling. "LA refused to play. As such, all of the allegations against him were deemed admitted, and a lifetime ban had to be imposed." This is how it went down, but it doesn't make it right and while it may be somewhat justified, it wasn't justice.

I'd agree Lance deserves a very harsh ruling. The others seemed to ride off into the sunset with the same no-pology letters, written by the same lawyer. fiamme red pointed out in post # 26 that LA admitted he was a DB towards Simeoni. Not saying LA deserves a jersey for that, but he seemed to now, finally tackle the Simeoni Affair properly. Lance deserves a very, very potent judgment. We may see some interesting meetings between Armstrong and the UCI:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/sep/28/uci-brian-cookson-lance-armstrong-doping