View Full Version : EPS/ Di2 reliability feedback please
i'm wondering if anyone has anything to report about their experience of the reliability of either EPS/ Di2 systems?
oldpotatoe
10-20-2013, 01:11 PM
i'm wondering if anyone has anything to report about their experience of the reliability of either EPS/ Di2 systems?
Seen a lot of both, sold both, have a demo bike with EPS. One e-wire got munched on some Di2, nothing else. Works once set up, no warranty issues at all in my house.
Zero issues with EPS. 100% reliable.
FlashUNC
10-20-2013, 01:32 PM
I had a Shimano cable channel I'm using with my EPS system come a bit loose. Some spray adhesive and it stuck back to the downtube.
That's literally it.
SPOKE
10-20-2013, 01:52 PM
One SR EPS install on a custom Crumpton. Worked great for about 8 months. Started craping out by only shifting he middle 4 cogs on the cassette. Reset it several times but it would crap out after a couple rides. Sent the RD & battery pack/brain in for warranty. These parts were sent back claiming that the warranty folks tested them for 12hr without a problem. Well, it fail again after 3 rides. Sent the battery/brain back and just installed it last week. No problems yet...:)
4 installs of Ultegra DI2. All were external cable kits. One bad "B" junction box on h e very first install.
3rd install worked well for several months then.......sometimes it would shift & sometimes it wouldn't. Swapped out battery pack/mount didn't fix the problem. Swapped out brifters & "A" junction box. Still had the problem. Sent the entire mess back for refund. Customer won't be using electric stuff again any time soon.
thirdgenbird
10-20-2013, 02:04 PM
SPOKE, your failure rate in nearly as bad as my loss rate with incoming USPS packages.
Rear der on my SR EPS died after 3 months and has been replaced by Campy. I have switched to 9070 and have not had a problem since (4K mi). Have been using olde DA Di2 on 2 bikes without an issue.
Look585
10-20-2013, 03:41 PM
3 ultegra 6770 installs. Bad etube wire on the first install, swapped out a fresh one and everything was great. Right shifter button got a bit slow/lazy on one. Blew the switch out with compressed air and that was all it took. Very happy overall.
SPOKE
10-20-2013, 04:09 PM
SPOKE, your failure rate in nearly as bad as my loss rate with incoming USPS packages.
My failure rate is a bit high. The EPS failure was just a real hassle since I had to pull the crank each time.
The one massive Di2 failure was most likely due to a bunch of wet riding and a client that sweats buckets.
My new Kirk will be Di2 despite the failures....;)
shovelhd
10-20-2013, 04:12 PM
7970 with satellite shifters and a homemade internal battery. No issues.
Johnnyg
10-20-2013, 09:06 PM
I've been riding Di2 for 3 years with no issues on my Storck 0.7, love it.
happycampyer
10-20-2013, 09:25 PM
Not sure about EPS, but Signature Cycles installs more Di2 than anyone. They've run 100+ installs a year since Di2 was introduced (what would you expect from a bike shop that's across the street from a used car (Bentley/Rolls-Royce/Aston-Martin/Ferrarri) dealership?). I'll check with Justin on Tuesday, but if they have had issues, they are very rare.
Not sure about EPS, but Signature Cycles installs more Di2 than anyone. They've run 100+ installs a year since Di2 was introduced (what would you expect from a bike shop that's across the street from a used car (Bentley/Rolls-Royce/Aston-Martin/Ferrarri) dealership?). I'll check with Justin on Tuesday, but if they have had issues, they are very rare.
yes, i've looked at Signature's gallery and Di2 is everywhere on there. Only Mr. Porter's Ottrott defected.
i'll be very interested to hear from you about what they might have to say. all ears, both of them.
corky
10-21-2013, 09:02 AM
3 months SR EPS... setup once, haven't touched it since.....
Heisenberg
10-21-2013, 09:04 AM
Not sure about EPS, but Signature Cycles installs more Di2 than anyone. They've run 100+ installs a year since Di2 was introduced (what would you expect from a bike shop that's across the street from a used car (Bentley/Rolls-Royce/Aston-Martin/Ferrarri) dealership?). I'll check with Justin on Tuesday, but if they have had issues, they are very rare.
Personally: Record EPS was a peach. Set-and-forget. Just make sure you keep the battery charged - as you start slipping under 30% or so, it starts doing weird stuff. Put a lot of miles on it without a hitch.
Di2 (6770) has been...amusing. Junction box failure, shifter failure, general poor performance...I was kind of surprised that I've had better luck with Italian electronics vs. the Japanese bits.
That said, I work for an online shop and we send probably 5 Di2 builds out the door on a daily basis with hardly any complaints - definitely more from the EPS crowd.
Personally: Record EPS was a peach. Set-and-forget. Just make sure you keep the battery charged - as you start slipping under 30% or so, it starts doing weird stuff. Put a lot of miles on it without a hitch.
Di2 (6770) has been...amusing. Junction box failure, shifter failure, general poor performance...I was kind of surprised that I've had better luck with Italian electronics vs. the Japanese bits.
That said, I work for an online shop and we send probably 5 Di2 builds out the door on a daily basis with hardly any complaints - definitely more from the EPS crowd.
"definitely more from the EPS crowd" - is there a common theme to the EPS complaints? any particular weakness in Campagnolo's system?
Does Di2 have an achilles heel?
oldpotatoe
10-23-2013, 07:31 AM
Personally: Record EPS was a peach. Set-and-forget. Just make sure you keep the battery charged - as you start slipping under 30% or so, it starts doing weird stuff. Put a lot of miles on it without a hitch.
Di2 (6770) has been...amusing. Junction box failure, shifter failure, general poor performance...I was kind of surprised that I've had better luck with Italian electronics vs. the Japanese bits.
That said, I work for an online shop and we send probably 5 Di2 builds out the door on a daily basis with hardly any complaints - definitely more from the EPS crowd.
Electronics for EPS are actually Swiss made, not surprised they work well.
Small production runs, lots of hand assembled bits..overall, I think preferable to the mass produced, assembly line antics of the big S...Plus yes the Di2 stuff is a changing regularly, which I suspect introduces some level of error rate, not often found on smaller production runs.
I have my Athena EPS coming my way..onto my MXLeader..pix to come after I get the drill out.
summilux
10-23-2013, 07:57 AM
I have my Athena EPS coming my way..onto my MXLeader..pix to come after I get the drill out.
Oohhh, I'm excited for this. You going internal? I've got an Olmo Leader that I'm thinking about doing this too. Delta too.
Heisenberg
10-23-2013, 08:28 AM
"definitely more from the EPS crowd" - is there a common theme to the EPS complaints? any particular weakness in Campagnolo's system?
Seems to be (rare) abject component failures. The upside (and downside) is that EPS is a contained unit on the battery - not inbetween wires, no array of junction boxes. Easy install and problem isolation, but a pain in the ass to actually work on. Maybe my anecdotal evidence is skewed because it's typically on very high-end bikes where I'm far more likely to hear about it.
The EPS stuff is several levels higher in quality than Di2, IMO, both from a feel perspective and from the actually manufacturing of the bits. I strongly prefer it simply because of the feel aspect - it actually gives physical feedback on shifts, vs the very nebulous feel of Di2.
I did not like how EPS front shifted under pressure - on steep grades when downshifting chain would get either stuck or thrown violently while on flats it would shift smoothly. I do not have this problem with Di2. Overall I prefer mechanical SR to its electronic brother.
Heisenberg
10-23-2013, 11:30 AM
I did not like how EPS front shifted under pressure - on steep grades when downshifting chain would get either stuck or thrown violently while on flats it would shift smoothly. I do not have this problem with Di2. Overall I prefer mechanical SR to its electronic brother.
What crankset/chainrings were you using? I found it to be bitchy with anything but Campy.
What crankset/chainrings were you using? I found it to be bitchy with anything but Campy.
I did not use Campy crank - I was using SISL with Rotor oval rings, the same I am using with mechanical SR without any issues. I am also using the same setup with Di2 without any issues and perfect shifting.
I've just got home from a test ride of Ultegra Di2 10 speed on a BMC Gran Fondo. I hope things have improved with the introduction of the new 11 speed.
Ergonomics;
The hoods do not allow the hands to shape naturally.
Each brake lever has a sharp edge on the underside where they transition to the hoods, where the second finger wants to wrap around underneath the hood behind the lever. Very uncomfortable.
The paddles are distinguishable, but not very tactile, and lacking 'feedback'.
Gear changing;
Changing cogs is one click at a time, with no holding down feature for a sweep across the cassette. Disappointing.
The right rear paddle moves in to take the chain down the cassette. Not an intuitive direction. The front paddle moves in to take it up the cassette. Intuitive direction.
The left front paddle moves in to take the chain up to the big ring. Intuitive direction, but confusing as the right front gives an easier cog, and the left rear paddle moves the chain to the small ring (easier gear).
The chain does move smoothly, and the auto trim is a nice feature.
Aesthetics;
Ugly.
Conclusion;
Shows promise, but i wouldn't buy Ultegra Di2 10 speed. Next up for testing is the 11 speed update and then EPS Athena, but i think i already know which one i'm going to eventually purchase.
Question on EPS;
On the EPS left brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain from big ring to small ring, and on the right EPS brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain down the cassette?
Heisenberg
10-23-2013, 01:23 PM
Conclusion;
Shows promise, but i wouldn't buy Ultegra Di2 10 speed. Next up for testing is the 11 speed update and then EPS Athena, but i think i already know which one i'm going to eventually purchase.
Question on EPS;
On the EPS left brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain from big ring to small ring, and on the right EPS brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain down the cassette?
On the question: Yes.
9070 is an improvement over 6770, ergonomically - there's a faint "click" when you shift, now. The hoods still feel icky. 6870 is still a couple months out, unfortunately.
On the question: Yes.
9070 is an improvement over 6770, ergonomically - there's a faint "click" when you shift, now. The hoods still feel icky. 6870 is still a couple months out, unfortunately.
"Yes" - excellent news. Thanks for that.
EPS seems on paper (i haven't tested it yet) so much more intuitive than the Ultegra Di2 paddle arrangement. If the 9070 paddles shift with the same arrangement i'm unlikely to try or buy.
From down tube shifters to EPS in one giant leap for moi. Gulp.
I read somewhere (was it here?) that Campagnolo *consulted* with an Austrian company about the electronics for EPS.
FlashUNC
10-23-2013, 01:45 PM
Question on EPS;
On the EPS left brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain from big ring to small ring, and on the right EPS brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain down the cassette?
Yes, the shifting movements at the hand are identical to mechanical Campy.
And you get far more feedback than the Di2 design.
PaMtbRider
10-23-2013, 01:50 PM
9070 and 6870 allow you to program each button for what you want it to control.
9070 and 6870 allow you to program each button for what you want it to control.
they do? interesting. my LBS didn't say anything about that. good to know. thanks:)
saab2000
10-23-2013, 02:16 PM
Some are less attractive than others, but all these systems are pretty ugly.
The nicest ones are those by builders who integrate the wires and batteries.
The battery on 9070 is seatpost integrated. I also love sprinter (makes it like Campy) and climbing shifters + that I can program actions the way I like. I like 9070 ergonomics, but it is a personal thing.
9070 and 6870 allow you to program each button for what you want it to control.
You can do that with 6770 10sp as well.
I've just got home from a test ride of Ultegra Di2 10 speed on a BMC Gran Fondo. I hope things have improved with the introduction of the new 11 speed.
Ergonomics;
The hoods do not allow the hands to shape naturally.
They feel great in my hands.
Each brake lever has a sharp edge on the underside where they transition to the hoods, where the second finger wants to wrap around underneath the hood behind the lever. Very uncomfortable.
After 2 years on Di2 I can honestly say I've never noticed that.
The paddles are distinguishable, but not very tactile, and lacking 'feedback'.
Totally agree, my biggest gripe as well.
Gear changing;
Changing cogs is one click at a time, with no holding down feature for a sweep across the cassette. Disappointing.
There is a multishift feature in the newest firmware, at least for 11sp.
The right rear paddle moves in to take the chain down the cassette. Not an intuitive direction. The front paddle moves in to take it up the cassette. Intuitive direction.
The left front paddle moves in to take the chain up to the big ring. Intuitive direction, but confusing as the right front gives an easier cog, and the left rear paddle moves the chain to the small ring (easier gear).
This can all be reprogrammed to your liking.
They feel great in my hands.
After 2 years on Di2 I can honestly say I've never noticed that.
Totally agree, my biggest gripe as well.
There is a multishift feature in the newest firmware, at least for 11sp.
This can all be reprogrammed to your liking.
can i buy hands for Di2?
i noticed the sharp edges immediately - odd
it's a deal breaker if EPS proves to be more engaging.
firmware? this is not cycling!:eek:
thanks:)
I actually like the 'mouse button' aspect of Di2; to me it's one of the cooler features of Di2. I like being able to flick the shifter with my fingertip. It's sorta the point, if I am going to throw a lever I might as well use mechanical. Oh well, thankfully there is a choice to satisfy either preference.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 06:59 AM
Oohhh, I'm excited for this. You going internal? I've got an Olmo Leader that I'm thinking about doing this too. Delta too.
Yep, gonna get out the craftsman drill...external battery tho, big one, behind the lower bottle on DT..cuz like I mentioned, gotta have people see how cool I am.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 07:02 AM
I've just got home from a test ride of Ultegra Di2 10 speed on a BMC Gran Fondo. I hope things have improved with the introduction of the new 11 speed.
Ergonomics;
The hoods do not allow the hands to shape naturally.
Each brake lever has a sharp edge on the underside where they transition to the hoods, where the second finger wants to wrap around underneath the hood behind the lever. Very uncomfortable.
The paddles are distinguishable, but not very tactile, and lacking 'feedback'.
Gear changing;
Changing cogs is one click at a time, with no holding down feature for a sweep across the cassette. Disappointing.
The right rear paddle moves in to take the chain down the cassette. Not an intuitive direction. The front paddle moves in to take it up the cassette. Intuitive direction.
The left front paddle moves in to take the chain up to the big ring. Intuitive direction, but confusing as the right front gives an easier cog, and the left rear paddle moves the chain to the small ring (easier gear).
The chain does move smoothly, and the auto trim is a nice feature.
Aesthetics;
Ugly.
Conclusion;
Shows promise, but i wouldn't buy Ultegra Di2 10 speed. Next up for testing is the 11 speed update and then EPS Athena, but i think i already know which one i'm going to eventually purchase.
Question on EPS;
On the EPS left brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain from big ring to small ring, and on the right EPS brifter does the thumb shifter push the chain down the cassette?
I agree and yes, LH lever, big shifter(paddle) bigger ring, smaller shifter(thumb button) smaller ring. Same for RH lever. Big lever, bigger(in size) cog, smaller lever smaller cog, in size.
Ergonomics for di2 I don't like and unfortunately, they are the same for 9070 as well as ultegra 11s di2...
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 07:04 AM
"Yes" - excellent news. Thanks for that.
EPS seems on paper (i haven't tested it yet) so much more intuitive than the Ultegra Di2 paddle arrangement. If the 9070 paddles shift with the same arrangement i'm unlikely to try or buy.
From down tube shifters to EPS in one giant leap for moi. Gulp.
I read somewhere (was it here?) that Campagnolo *consulted* with an Austrian company about the electronics for EPS.
Swiss.
FlashUNC
10-24-2013, 07:36 AM
I actually like the 'mouse button' aspect of Di2; to me it's one of the cooler features of Di2. I like being able to flick the shifter with my fingertip. It's sorta the point, if I am going to throw a lever I might as well use mechanical. Oh well, thankfully there is a choice to satisfy either preference.
EPS isn't a lever throw per se -- the finger shifter moves maybe a quarter of an inch tops -- but there's a real sense of feedback through the system, particularly on the thumb shifter. It's not the same as mechanical and something of an approximation of a "real" shift, but its far more feedback than I've ever gotten on a Di2 system.
corky
10-24-2013, 07:49 AM
EPS isn't a lever throw per se -- the finger shifter moves maybe a quarter of an inch tops -- but there's a real sense of feedback through the system, particularly on the thumb shifter. It's not the same as mechanical and something of an approximation of a "real" shift, but its far more feedback than I've ever gotten on a Di2 system.
Totally agree with this.... Ithink it's a step up from SR mechanical. The hood shape is pretty different between mech and EPS, much better, no slit in the rubber and the thumb buttons are much less obtrusive....
SPOKE
10-24-2013, 09:23 AM
Well now....was installing another Ultegra Di2 external kit last nite and found my second bad "B" junction box.
Looks like my failure rate keeps going up!
Totally agree with this.... Ithink it's a step up from SR mechanical. The hood shape is pretty different between mech and EPS, much better, no slit in the rubber and the thumb buttons are much less obtrusive....
i had Ergopower mechanical years ago, and i hated the thumb buttons. couldn't get to them from the drops naturally, had to reach for for them in an awkward sort of a way, and from the hoods they was too much in the way, sticking out the stupid way that they did (and still do from pictures i've seen). me no like.
the EPS thumber looks so much nicer, but i've yet to get my mitts on a pair. i will, but they look right to me... from afar.
Swiss.
'Swiss' sounds good enough for me.
EPS Athena bar end shifters, do they connect directly to the interface box at the stem area and work the derailleurs without the need for ergo levers?
I heard that EPS is an all or nothing system which doesn't work if you want to use it without the left shifter and front derailleur. Any truth to that rumor?
When my rear der went boom the front would not shift either.
FlashUNC
10-24-2013, 12:24 PM
I heard that EPS is an all or nothing system which doesn't work if you want to use it without the left shifter and front derailleur. Any truth to that rumor?
There are photos of pros using a mechanical front and electronic rear from early in the season.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 12:29 PM
'Swiss' sounds good enough for me.
EPS Athena bar end shifters, do they connect directly to the interface box at the stem area and work the derailleurs without the need for ergo levers?
Yep, one plug into interface as if they were ergo levers. They have a 'y' junction for barends and brake lever shift buttons but for me, just barends.
2 years on Di2 internal and absolutely no complaints. There are possible improvements but nothing causing issues with use. It is a real joy every ride.
Maybe better differentiation of the buttons would be nice. No real problems with shifting though, even with lobster claw gloves. Just takes some focus. I'm not racing, so it's never an issue.
Having used downtube, thumb and all STI mechanical shifters, I find the best feature to be the consistency. No need for adjustment. Every shift is crisp and quick. Though I'm accustomed to dumping multiple gears with mechanical STI, I haven't really found the need to shift one gear at a time with Di2 to be an issue. No different than using a mouse.
aramis
10-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I've had my Ultegra DI2 for 6 months and 3,000 miles or so and I've never had an issue. I think it's worth spending the hour or so to learn how to adjust the limits and micro adjustments on the derailleur since I like to swap wheels/cassettes/cranks a decent amount. If I had the adjustment off I can get it perfect while riding under load very easily.
Only complaints is no mid cage derailleur available and that I have the older version so I have to remove the battery to charge and I think I have to take the bike into the bike shop to get the firmware changed so I can do multiple shifts at once.
I hated the shifters the first few times I rode it. Went the wrong way a bunch and couldn't remember what was what. Now I love being able to just flick the button and shift even while out of the saddle climbing chasing someone kind of deal.
"There are photos of pros using a mechanical front and electronic rear from early in the season."
The pros might be using gear that the public doesn't have. Does anyone know if the current systems available to the masses work without the front shifter front derailleur combo...Old Spud?
cachagua
10-24-2013, 01:19 PM
This isn't exactly feedback, but look at all the ten, twenty, thirty-year-old used Record and Dura-Ace on eBay. In five years, I don't think there are going to be any used electronic gruppos of today's vintage for sale there. Now and then you'll see an NOS piece, for the odd collector, but nearly all bought and ridden now -- 99-plus percent -- will be unrepairably broken, and poisoning groundwater in a landfill.
From where I stand, that's what reliability looks like. I couldn't rationalize buying something like that, knowing i'm going to throw it away that soon.
The model I'm basing this prediction on is all the other microelectronics we have -- computers, phones, iPods, et cetera all have very short service lives. But I could be wrong -- only time will tell. You who are buying this stuff, do you expect to be riding it in five or ten years? What is your plan for its eventual death, not to mention its obsolescence?
"There are photos of pros using a mechanical front and electronic rear from early in the season."
The pros might be using gear that the public doesn't have. Does anyone know if the current systems available to the masses work without the front shifter front derailleur combo...Old Spud?
thinking of going 11x1?
A friend was for cross but the local rumor mill is reporting that it can't be done with the existing components. If it can, Old Spud might make a few sales to the well-heeled locals.
It's the price you pay for modern electronic technology. Implicit in any electronic technology purchase is a built in obsolescence. Sadly, the same is true of Shimano mechanical. Difficult and expensive to replace your 7400 components.
While I certainly have hopes of a long life for my Di2, it will always be possible to move back to mechanical 10 speed or whatever is available as a mechanical system, depending on price and functionality, if I don't like the future electronic offering. Electronic is nice, but it's only a convenience, not a necessity.
This isn't exactly feedback, but look at all the ten, twenty, thirty-year-old used Record and Dura-Ace on eBay. In five years, I don't think there are going to be any used electronic gruppos of today's vintage for sale there. Now and then you'll see an NOS piece, for the odd collector, but nearly all bought and ridden now -- 99-plus percent -- will be unrepairably broken, and poisoning groundwater in a landfill.
From where I stand, that's what reliability looks like. I couldn't rationalize buying something like that, knowing i'm going to throw it away that soon.
The model I'm basing this prediction on is all the other microelectronics we have -- computers, phones, iPods, et cetera all have very short service lives. But I could be wrong -- only time will tell. You who are buying this stuff, do you expect to be riding it in five or ten years? What is your plan for its eventual death, not to mention its obsolescence?
CunegoFan
10-24-2013, 01:47 PM
This isn't exactly feedback, but look at all the ten, twenty, thirty-year-old used Record and Dura-Ace on eBay. In five years, I don't think there are going to be any used electronic gruppos of today's vintage for sale there. Now and then you'll see an NOS piece, for the odd collector, but nearly all bought and ridden now -- 99-plus percent -- will be unrepairably broken, and poisoning groundwater in a landfill.
The electronic stuff will be cheaper to manufacture than mechnanical and can be sold for more money. Whether it benefits the end consumer matters not a jot. It is carbon frames all over again.
This seems to be the business model most "advancements" in the cycling industry are built on.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 02:13 PM
"There are photos of pros using a mechanical front and electronic rear from early in the season."
The pros might be using gear that the public doesn't have. Does anyone know if the current systems available to the masses work without the front shifter front derailleur combo...Old Spud?
Beats me, never tried it. When I hook mine up, I'll do the RH one, then see if it moves w/o the front hooked up. I think it will. May get error signal for LH shifter, fd, now I think of it, fd will be hooked up, I don't know. I'll ask campag, NA
Besweder
10-24-2013, 02:48 PM
Hope I'm not getting off topic here, but for those who have gone, or are planning to go, electric, what's your primary reason for changing from the old tried & true mechanical? I haven't tried the electronics yet, but I'll be building a new ride this fall/winter and I'm wondering what there is about it that might make it worth the extra money? Do they really perform better? If so, how? Or, is it more of a cool factor/early adopter thing? Curious & thanks for your thoughts.
FlashUNC
10-24-2013, 03:04 PM
Hope I'm not getting off topic here, but for those who have gone, or are planning to go, electric, what's your primary reason for changing from the old tried & true mechanical? I haven't tried the electronics yet, but I'll be building a new ride this fall/winter and I'm wondering what there is about it that might make it worth the extra money? Do they really perform better? If so, how? Or, is it more of a cool factor/early adopter thing? Curious & thanks for your thoughts.
My main motivation was to try it to see if it really was worth the hype, rather than just blathering on about how much its not needed when I'd never, yanno, really used it.
And now I'm an unabashed convert.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 03:16 PM
Hope I'm not getting off topic here, but for those who have gone, or are planning to go, electric, what's your primary reason for changing from the old tried & true mechanical? I haven't tried the electronics yet, but I'll be building a new ride this fall/winter and I'm wondering what there is about it that might make it worth the extra money? Do they really perform better? If so, how? Or, is it more of a cool factor/early adopter thing? Curious & thanks for your thoughts.
Doing it cuz I can. Wholesale pricing, wouldn't do it at retail, prefer EPS. Battery on bike(big one) shows how cool I am.
Ti Designs
10-24-2013, 03:25 PM
I couldn't rationalize buying something like that, knowing i'm going to throw it away that soon.
I'm still using 7700 'cause I saw this coming a mile a way and stockpiled components. Most of my cassettes were given to me in the rush to switch to 10-speed. At this point I look at bike expenses in terms of performance advantages. I don't shift very often, I certainly don't need more gears and I'm probably too stupid to remember to charge my battery - electronic shifting offers me nothing. Wheels on the other hand...
aramis
10-24-2013, 04:47 PM
Hope I'm not getting off topic here, but for those who have gone, or are planning to go, electric, what's your primary reason for changing from the old tried & true mechanical? I haven't tried the electronics yet, but I'll be building a new ride this fall/winter and I'm wondering what there is about it that might make it worth the extra money? Do they really perform better? If so, how? Or, is it more of a cool factor/early adopter thing? Curious & thanks for your thoughts.
I bought it because I wanted to see if it was any different and I got a great deal on a whole bike on closeout.
Now when I'm on fast rides I never worry about shifting and don't care if I'm cross-chained, shifting into small ring while standing coming up a hill, whatever.. it's great to not have to worry about shifting. For lower paced rides I don't think it offers any advantages accept that I never have to worry about adjusting or replacing cables.
Right now I ride my bike and figure it's disposable though. I figure I'll ride the hell out of it for 3-4 years and then sell it and get another. If it gets scratched and scuffed or becomes obsolete while I'm riding it, oh well.
oldpotatoe
10-24-2013, 06:29 PM
"There are photos of pros using a mechanical front and electronic rear from early in the season."
The pros might be using gear that the public doesn't have. Does anyone know if the current systems available to the masses work without the front shifter front derailleur combo...Old Spud?
Boys from Campagnolo says all has to be connected to work. Some pros with rd only had it modded to work, not sure how.
thirdgenbird
10-24-2013, 06:44 PM
Boys from Campagnolo says all has to be connected to work. Some pros with rd only had it modded to work, not sure how.
You probably just need to make a dongle(s) that has the same continuity and resistance as the missing part(s).
Edit: I guess it could be more complex if Campagnolo uses a CAN style system. Are the shifters just a dumb switch or is there a logic board of some type?
I went electronic because it is so much easier to travel with it (I just disconnect 1 cable) and I can go to 34t cassette in the rear by changing the swing arm on the rear. I also like to have the least amount of cables outside.
oldpotatoe
10-25-2013, 07:09 AM
You probably just need to make a dongle(s) that has the same continuity and resistance as the missing part(s).
Edit: I guess it could be more complex if Campagnolo uses a CAN style system. Are the shifters just a dumb switch or is there a logic board of some type?
No logic board I could see in the shifters, looks just like a switch. I'm sure just some sort of thingy in the wires for the FD and LH shifter makes it think something is there.
I went electronic because it is so much easier to travel with it (I just disconnect 1 cable) and I can go to 34t cassette in the rear by changing the swing arm on the rear. I also like to have the least amount of cables outside.
smartness.
Look585
10-25-2013, 06:13 PM
I put it on the lady's bike cause she liked the lever shape as much as the campy10 that was on there before. Perfect front shifting even on 50/34 paired with a 12-30 was another benefit. It also allowed me to have only S10 wheels / cassettes / chains across all bikes in the house.
Then I played with hers and loved it so much I put it on my race bike. The stuff just works and I expect it to do so for a long time. All Ultegra10, BTW.
I'll likely buy another kit or two when the current sale prices get even better on the launch of eUltegra11.
Walter
10-25-2013, 06:19 PM
I got the DA Di2 because I just wanted to try something new, I had a smoking deal made available, and a good friend raved about it after riding it for several months.
Mechanical is just fine, but this like magic. The best single thing for me is the ease of front der. shifting. I have had zero issues with it.
shovelhd
10-26-2013, 09:23 AM
Hope I'm not getting off topic here, but for those who have gone, or are planning to go, electric, what's your primary reason for changing from the old tried & true mechanical? I haven't tried the electronics yet, but I'll be building a new ride this fall/winter and I'm wondering what there is about it that might make it worth the extra money? Do they really perform better? If so, how? Or, is it more of a cool factor/early adopter thing? Curious & thanks for your thoughts.
Racing. Reliability and consistency. Satellite shifters. If I take a neutral wheel that doesn't shift right I can adjust it on the fly during the race. Once you go tron you'll never go back.
happycampyer
10-26-2013, 02:52 PM
Jason, saw your question in another thread. I did speak to Justin and his feedback is pretty much in line with the comments here—with the hundreds of Di2 builds that he's done over the years, there have been very few issues. And once installed the groups are very much set-and-forget, and require less tweaking than mechanical groups (no cable stretch, derailleurs shift flawlessly, etc.). He has installed fewer EPS groups than Di2, has found EPS to be a little more finicky (didn't go into details), but in general is also set-and-forget as well. Fwiw, Justin has Ultegra Di2 on one of his bikes, and loves it. He said to call him if you have specific questions.
Regarding your subjective impressions about feel, they are similar to mine. I had Di2 on a bike for a couple of months, and ended up trading the group for other stuff. Everything worked flawlessly, but I couldn't get used to the hood shape, and I found the button placement awkward. C'est la vie. If the ergonomics had suited me better, I would have kept it without question. I rode Tim P's Ottrott with EPS briefly, and it was stellar. If anything, the ergonomics are even better than mechanical Campy (minimal "throw" (it's electric, after all) but still a mechanical tactile feel, the thumb lever is tucked under your thumb, etc.). I'm sure I'll end up with EPS on something at some point.
Mark McM
10-28-2013, 09:25 AM
Racing. Reliability and consistency. Satellite shifters. If I take a neutral wheel that doesn't shift right I can adjust it on the fly during the race. Once you go tron you'll never go back.
Mechanical shifters have all those qualities except for the satellite shifters. And that seems more like a convenience than a functional necessity - and an expensive (and heavy) convenience at that.
Mechanical shifters have all those qualities except for the satellite shifters. And that seems more like a convenience than a functional necessity - and an expensive (and heavy) convenience at that.
necessity? then the game would have stopped at 7 cog cassettes.
Besweder
10-28-2013, 10:52 AM
Interesting discussion; I'm thinking I need to find a test ride or two on EPS/Di2. I think my better half, with small hands and some arthritis issues, might find an electronic update especially nice.
oldpotatoe
10-28-2013, 12:05 PM
Mechanical shifters have all those qualities except for the satellite shifters. And that seems more like a convenience than a functional necessity - and an expensive (and heavy) convenience at that.
Convenience? Lever mounted shifters, index shifting, are firmly in the nice to have category as well.
Mark McM
10-28-2013, 01:06 PM
Convenience? Lever mounted shifters, index shifting, are firmly in the nice to have category as well.
That's all true. However, the marginal cost of these features in mechanical shifters is much smaller than the marginal cost for remote electronic shifters.
In the product universe where custom frame paint is in the range of $1,200 discussing marginal costs is rather silly.
shovelhd
10-28-2013, 06:08 PM
Mechanical shifters have all those qualities except for the satellite shifters. And that seems more like a convenience than a functional necessity - and an expensive (and heavy) convenience at that.
You must be a lot more flexible than me if you can adjust your mechanical rear derailleur during a race. If you've never raced with Di2, then I don't expect you to get why satellite shifters are an advantage.
I have not tried eShifting. Can you enumerate the specific advantages and disadvantages?
Louis
10-28-2013, 10:17 PM
In the product universe where custom frame paint is in the range of $1,200 discussing marginal costs is rather silly.
That's some pretty fancy custom paint.
"You must be a lot more flexible than me if you can adjust your mechanical rear derailleur during a race."
If you have to adjust your rear derailleur during a race it's time to find a new competent mechanic to prep your bike. :banana:
oldpotatoe
10-29-2013, 05:44 AM
That's all true. However, the marginal cost of these features in mechanical shifters is much smaller than the marginal cost for remote electronic shifters.
Huh? High end toys, 'marginal' cost?
Mark McM
10-29-2013, 08:29 AM
You must be a lot more flexible than me if you can adjust your mechanical rear derailleur during a race. If you've never raced with Di2, then I don't expect you to get why satellite shifters are an advantage.
But I thought that one of the 'supposed' advantages of electronic shifters is that they never have to be readjusted?
In any case, I rarely have to readjust the derailleur indexing in the middle of a ride (or a race), but on the odd occasion that I do, it is very easy. All of my bikes have barrel adjusters at the first cable stop, which are easy to reach and adjust while riding (and unlike electronic shifters, you don't have to enter any special mode to do it).
While I've done many races, I have not done any with Di2. When racing in a tight pack, I tend to keep my hands near the brakes (just in case), so my hands are naturally near the shift levers, and remote shifters would not be an advantage. The one type of racing I do where my hands are more often on the bar tops (away from the levers) are hillclimb races. The extra effort to reach forward to the shifters is minimal, and probably more than compensated for by not having the extra weight of the batteries, motors, and remote shifter modules.
thirdgenbird
10-29-2013, 09:51 AM
That's some pretty fancy custom paint.
Not really. A paint job from somebody like joe bell will break $1000 pretty quick if you chose multiple colors, decals, and a few options like lined lugs or masking chrome.
shovelhd
10-29-2013, 06:36 PM
But I thought that one of the 'supposed' advantages of electronic shifters is that they never have to be readjusted?
In any case, I rarely have to readjust the derailleur indexing in the middle of a ride (or a race), but on the odd occasion that I do, it is very easy. All of my bikes have barrel adjusters at the first cable stop, which are easy to reach and adjust while riding (and unlike electronic shifters, you don't have to enter any special mode to do it).
While I've done many races, I have not done any with Di2. When racing in a tight pack, I tend to keep my hands near the brakes (just in case), so my hands are naturally near the shift levers, and remote shifters would not be an advantage. The one type of racing I do where my hands are more often on the bar tops (away from the levers) are hillclimb races. The extra effort to reach forward to the shifters is minimal, and probably more than compensated for by not having the extra weight of the batteries, motors, and remote shifter modules.
You've never taken a neutral wheel in a criterium that didn't shift right? Barrel adjusters are fine if your frame supports them, mine doesn't. A lot of combo mechanical/electronic frames don't. It's also a lot easier, faster, and more reliable for me to use the satellite shifters in a full tilt sprint than trying to reach for a lever. The extra weight is minimal and worth it.
I'm never going to convince you that electronic is better for racing, and I'm not trying to. I shouldn't have to feel like I have to defend my opinion, nor should you.
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