Michael Barry: "When riding becomes work"

[fiamme red]

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/michael-barry-when-riding-becomes-work

[Vientomas]

When doping and lying becomes work.

[#campyuserftw]

When doping and lying become work, wear Rapha.

:beer:

[Chris]

Same ilk as Armstrong. Liar and cheat.

[FlashUNC]

Same ilk as Armstrong. Liar and cheat.

Hardly. Both doped. One ruined people's lives to protect that secret. Huge difference.

Does that absolve Michael for what he did? No. But I don't see how that invalidates his ideas about losing his love for riding the bike as a pro. If anything, I think it would lend credibility to his story.

[#campyuserftw]

Lance Armstrong is the worst, because he both won and hurt many others.
Every other doper is a victim, because they lost and hurt less people's feelings.

:confused:

[FlashUNC]

Lance Armstrong is the worst, because he both won and hurt many others.
Every other doper is a victim, because they lost and hurt less people's feelings.

:confused:

Not at all. What Barry did was wrong and he'll have to square that with fans, friends, family, the whole nine yards.

But to paint a broad brush and act as if a guy who doped, and a guy who actively destroyed people's lives to keep that secret are the same is an overly simplistic view of things imo.

[#campyuserftw]

Not at all. What Barry did was wrong and he'll have to square that with fans, friends, family, the whole nine yards.

But to paint a broad brush and act as if a guy who doped, and a guy who actively destroyed people's lives to keep that secret are the same is an overly simplistic view of things imo.

Floyd Landis. Did his lie play a role in his best friend's suicide? Landis and David Witt, they were best men at each other's weddings. Witt who was his father in law, introduced him to his daughter Amber, a woman who left Landis due to his lies.

Landis was caught, found guilty. Raised money. Wrote a book. Denied. Chose 'Ride a Bike to Work Day' as the key moment to admit he doped, while also attacking Armstrong.

To me, Floyd Landis is perhaps the greatest scum. He attacked Greg LeMond's secret of sexual abuse. He was involved in computer hacking. His 'Floyd Fairness Fund' was alliteration and an abomination of $1M.

Thing is...they are all the same...Ryan Braun is = Alex Rodriguez = Marion Jones = Barry Bonds = Lance Armstrong and the other thousands of cyclists who doped.

Evil is evil. Even Paul Kimmage cheated (amphetamines and caffeine suppositories he says). Had Lance taken third place, seven times, dot dot dot.

[FlashUNC]

That's incredibly reductionist and simplistic.

So by that standard, David Millar == Lance Armstrong? Ridiculous.

I completely agree Floyd was a turd, but he was also the key to breaking the Omerta that existed. How much doesthat weigh in the scales of cosmic justice?

Barry doped. When he got caught, he told the truth. Let's not label the man a hero, but it doesn't invalidate his opinion about riding bicycles.

The world ain't that black and white.

[veggieburger]

Not at all. What Barry did was wrong and he'll have to square that with fans, friends, family, the whole nine yards.

But to paint a broad brush and act as if a guy who doped, and a guy who actively destroyed people's lives to keep that secret are the same is an overly simplistic view of things imo.

Well said.

[AgilisMerlin]

you want answers, go to the source

ask them yourself.

life is, be careful what you wish for...


just a thought,

[Chris]

I never said anything about him being the same type of person Armstrong is. The unique aspects of Armstrong's position and success in the sport provided him with the opportunity to behave much more reprehensibly than others in the sport. Not to mention some particular aspects about Armstrong's personality. I don't in anyway equate what Barry did in his business, personal and celebrity life to what Armstrong has done. However, and it's a big however, he did EXACTLY what Armstrong and the others did. He doped, he profited from it and he lied about it. And in all likelihood he is still lying about it to a degree ('I quit doping in 2006'...). Didn't he write some book about life with Postal? I am sure it's all completely accurate without any fiction regarding their performances...

The fact that some of these guys are nicer guys than Armstrong (and I loathe Armstrong) don't make them any less responsible for their contributions to making the sport of cycling the laughing stock that it is. If you want to give them a pass, you're welcome to it, but none of these guys were in Armstrong's position, so you have no idea how they would have behaved given the opportunity. I am sure more than a couple of the nice guys would have willingly set about to crush whomever they thought was about to expose them as the Emperor without clothes. We know at least that some of these 'nicer' guys sat idly by while Armstrong went about the business of destroying the careers of some of their friends and former teammates. They never spoke up, some denied and all continued to race on the program and cash their checks for doing so. Is a sin of commission more a sin than a sin of omission? None of us will ever know the answer to what these guys would have done given the opportunity, but knowing a little bit about human nature and behavior my money is on the adage about absolute power.

[CunegoFan]

I never said anything about him being the same type of person Armstrong is. The unique aspects of Armstrong's position and success in the sport provided him with the opportunity to behave much more reprehensibly than others in the sport. Not to mention some particular aspects about Armstrong's personality. I don't in anyway equate what Barry did in his business, personal and celebrity life to what Armstrong has done. However, and it's a big however, he did EXACTLY what Armstrong and the others did. He doped, he profited from it and he lied about it. And in all likelihood he is still lying about it to a degree ('I quit doping in 2006'...). Didn't he write some book about life with Postal? I am sure it's all completely accurate without any fiction regarding their performances...

The fact that some of these guys are nicer guys than Armstrong (and I loathe Armstrong) don't make them any less responsible for their contributions to making the sport of cycling the laughing stock that it is. If you want to give them a pass, you're welcome to it, but none of these guys were in Armstrong's position, so you have no idea how they would have behaved given the opportunity. I am sure more than a couple of the nice guys would have willingly set about to crush whomever they thought was about to expose them as the Emperor without clothes. We know at least that some of these 'nicer' guys sat idly by while Armstrong went about the business of destroying the careers of some of their friends and former teammates. They never spoke up, some denied and all continued to race on the program and cash their checks for doing so. Is a sin of commission more a sin than a sin of omission? None of us will ever know the answer to what these guys would have done given the opportunity, but knowing a little bit about human nature and behavior my money is on the adage about absolute power.

Armstrong was a dick long before he won the Tour. He was an arrogant narcissistic jerk from at least his early teens. Money and power did not change him. They just allowed him to mistreat people beyond those he dealt with face to face.

[FlashUNC]

Armstrong was a dick long before he won the Tour. He was an arrogant narcissistic jerk from at least his early teens. Money and power did not change him. They just allowed him to mistreat people beyond those he dealt with face to face.

Totally. Even his authorized biography paints him as a raging tool from early on.

[Fixed]

I think we can still have pride in American cycling two of my favorites ,major Taylor and Greg Lemond and other less famous riders that I have know and have inspired me . :)
Cycling is a beautiful activity but like everything there can be no beauty without ugliness ..like R.S. says imperfection is perfection
Cheers

[Chris]

Armstrong was a dick long before he won the Tour. He was an arrogant narcissistic jerk from at least his early teens. Money and power did not change him. They just allowed him to mistreat people beyond those he dealt with face to face.

I don't disagree with that. I said there were some aspects of his personality (his narcissism) that made it more likely that he would behave that way. However, all of the guys had the opportunity, when Frankie and Emma O'Reilly and Betsy and the rest of the long list who were getting attacked with the GWB defense strategy were getting destroyed in the courts and the press to speak up and tell the truth. None of them did and those others' lives were impacted terribly. In fact, I imagine every single one was asked in an interview at some point if they doped or saw doping and I never read where anyone said they did. That would have caught my attention. Everyone did the bare minimum needed to keep their careers going. Depending in the size of the career the bare minimum was different. There weren't others who marketed and sold a miracle but there weren't any Jerome Chiottis out there either. Regardless, I'm sure they were all honorable men...

It's ok for you guys to disagree and have a differing opinion. I'm ok with others being wrong :). I just personally think that all these guys who went along with the program are complicit in both the sharp reduction in credibility of cycling and the altering of the careers of riders who would not dope and staff who would not lie. I'm sure Mike Barry is a nicer person. I'm sure I would rather hang with him than Armstrong but I don't give him a pass on calling him out as a cheat and a liar because of that.

[oldpotatoe]

Hardly. Both doped. One ruined people's lives to protect that secret. Huge difference.

Does that absolve Michael for what he did? No. But I don't see how that invalidates his ideas about losing his love for riding the bike as a pro. If anything, I think it would lend credibility to his story.

I agree. My employee has a freind, who has a daughter, who did really well in the road peloton in the US..found a Euro team..went there for about 3 months, returned and proclaimed, "I'll never race a bike again'.

Being forced, for whatever reason, to do illicit things to be competitive and 'help' the team has to be wearing on one, racing a bike.

[the bottle ride]

I am willing to forgive the dopers- I have a hard time reconciling the strong arm tactics with the threats, personal attacks, legal steamrolling, etc
That is some bad to the core type activities: it is indefensible.
Doping I can at least sort of understand the why.

[#campyuserftw]

nicer liars > meaner liars
successful winning dopers < unsuccessful losing dopers
local race boys we know defense > distant race boys we do not know
chimeras > anything

Had Lance let Floyd back onto his team = silence by Floyd Landis

ALL of these men are the same lying, cheating dirtbags, who did what everyone was doing at the time: cheating and trying to win or ride in support of those who did win. They whored out their souls, used corked bats and lied to many, hurt all, and....they were all "dicks". From Lance's "medical miracle", to his "high-cadence", to his "drop in weight to power ratio", to Tyler Hamilton's "chimera", Floyd Landis' "whiskey" and whatever lies Frankie Andreu's cheesy hair style told his wife.

Note: every single doper from Frankie, Tyler, George, Dave Z, Vande Velde, Tommy Danielson, Levi and all...they seemed to have the same lawyer, offering the same defense, generating the same un-apology/apology written statement, which was not written by any of them. They all systematically lied to the public, schemed, plotted, planned and hurt many.

The winner's "victims" are more public is all, and when some say they don't want to give Lance a dime in seeing his movie...realize that Frankie Andreu made a career in post-cycling television work long before he ever admitted...Jonathan Vaughters' sideburns made lots of money in team management before he ever admitted...and and and. Do we ban Frankie from tv work? Turn off the channel if he's on it? Do we avoid the purchase of Garmin products that JV hawked? Moreover, none of these guys would EVER have admitted diddly squat, unless Floyd Landis spilled the beans on Lance and then all.

Lance lied in a hospital room. Frankie lied in his kitchen. Does location or people in the room, matter? If a lie is told in the woods but there aren't a pair of ears to hear it...

Floyd Landis:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aRu6ofqZczJw

[fourflys]

I think we can still have pride in American cycling two of my favorites ,major Taylor and Greg Lemond and other less famous riders that I have know and have inspired me . :)
Cycling is a beautiful activity but like everything there can be no beauty without ugliness ..like R.S. says imperfection is perfection
Cheers

yep, well said...

also, it's all rainbows and ponies until something becomes your profession... then it becomes work and their are responsibilities... I'm not exonerating pros who took PEDs, but I also cannot begin to think I can understand why some did or some didn't... I caution all of us to take a step back and think about that... now if you were a pro cyclist, you have a unique prospective and your opinion had a lot more weight... but then again, everyone has their own reasons however right or wrong they may be...

[Shortsocks]

I personally don't care if any of these guys doped. Nope don't. I am tired constant banter. Let's just ride. How difficult is that? My world is much bigger than this doping BS. :bike:

[T.J.]

nicer liars > meaner liars
successful winning dopers < unsuccessful losing dopers
local race boys we know defense > distant race boys we do not know
chimeras > anything

Had Lance let Floyd back onto his team = silence by Floyd Landis

ALL of these men are the same lying, cheating dirtbags, who did what everyone was doing at the time: cheating and trying to win or ride in support of those who did win. They whored out their souls, used corked bats and lied to many, hurt all, and....they were all "dicks". From Lance's "medical miracle", to his "high-cadence", to his "drop in weight to power ratio", to Tyler Hamilton's "chimera", Floyd Landis' "whiskey" and whatever lies Frankie Andreu's cheesy hair style told his wife.

Note: every single doper from Frankie, Tyler, George, Dave Z, Vande Velde, Tommy Danielson, Levi and all...they seemed to have the same lawyer, offering the same defense, generating the same un-apology/apology written statement, which was not written by any of them. They all systematically lied to the public, schemed, plotted, planned and hurt many.

The winner's "victims" are more public is all, and when some say they don't want to give Lance a dime in seeing his movie...realize that Frankie Andreu made a career in post-cycling television work long before he ever admitted...Jonathan Vaughters' sideburns made lots of money in team management before he ever admitted...and and and. Do we ban Frankie from tv work? Turn off the channel if he's on it? Do we avoid the purchase of Garmin products that JV hawked? Moreover, none of these guys would EVER have admitted diddly squat, unless Floyd Landis spilled the beans on Lance and then all.

Lance lied in a hospital room. Frankie lied in his kitchen. Does location or people in the room, matter? If I lie is told in the woods but there aren't a pair of ears to hear it...

Floyd Landis:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aRu6ofqZczJw




We need a like button on here ! [x] Like


Group ride earlier this season was listening to some guys going on and on about Lance. Wanted him to be broke and destitute living out of a cardboard box if they had their way. Their very next convo was about a Gran Fondo or some such they were doing the following weekend and Big George was gonna be there !!!!! Swoon ...great guy....gush....can't wait to shake his hand.....

[cachagua]

I am tired (of) constant banter. . . My world is much bigger than this doping BS.


THANK YOU!! I, too, would really be delighted never to have to hear about it again.

As you say: the world is very big. And as vicious as these guys look, they are very, VERY small. Their viciousness has virtually no effect on the day-to-day of anyone here -- y'all who get indignant, get indignant by reading about it. The invasion of Iraq was based on lies, too, remember -- smoothly coordinated, well-rehearsed lies, told by a much more threatening conspiracy than some gang of sports thugs. The effects of those lies are with us daily: who here doesn't know a shattered veteran? Who here hasn't felt the impact of the country being bankrupt?

The question above, "If a lie is told in the woods but there aren't any ears to hear it", points at the very center of this issue. Lying happens every day -- but what happens next may be small, or it may be great.

It is tiresomely clear that the cheezy self-promotion of a handful of journalists and lawyers is the only thing driving this excitement. What if there were no ears for their lie that the issue even warrants your attention? Choosing to get indignant over doping, versus over some meaningful issue, is, I'm sorry, kind of a sucker's choice. Come on, show a little self-respect -- care about something that matters.

[FlashUNC]

nicer liars > meaner liars
successful winning dopers < unsuccessful losing dopers
local race boys we know defense > distant race boys we do not know
chimeras > anything

Had Lance let Floyd back onto his team = silence by Floyd Landis

ALL of these men are the same lying, cheating dirtbags, who did what everyone was doing at the time: cheating and trying to win or ride in support of those who did win. They whored out their souls, used corked bats and lied to many, hurt all, and....they were all "dicks". From Lance's "medical miracle", to his "high-cadence", to his "drop in weight to power ratio", to Tyler Hamilton's "chimera", Floyd Landis' "whiskey" and whatever lies Frankie Andreu's cheesy hair style told his wife.

Note: every single doper from Frankie, Tyler, George, Dave Z, Vande Velde, Tommy Danielson, Levi and all...they seemed to have the same lawyer, offering the same defense, generating the same un-apology/apology written statement, which was not written by any of them. They all systematically lied to the public, schemed, plotted, planned and hurt many.

The winner's "victims" are more public is all, and when some say they don't want to give Lance a dime in seeing his movie...realize that Frankie Andreu made a career in post-cycling television work long before he ever admitted...Jonathan Vaughters' sideburns made lots of money in team management before he ever admitted...and and and. Do we ban Frankie from tv work? Turn off the channel if he's on it? Do we avoid the purchase of Garmin products that JV hawked? Moreover, none of these guys would EVER have admitted diddly squat, unless Floyd Landis spilled the beans on Lance and then all.

Lance lied in a hospital room. Frankie lied in his kitchen. Does location or people in the room, matter? If a lie is told in the woods but there aren't a pair of ears to hear it...

Floyd Landis:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aRu6ofqZczJw

Like it or not, context matters. Yes, we would have all liked for a brave soul to say something. Christophe Bassons said something. He was out of the sport within a year.

Michele Scarponi spoke out against Dr Ferrari, and Lance personally chased him down in a race.

To say "Oh these guys are spineless punks" knowing what we know now is absurd. The Omerta was overwhelming, and it wasn't just Lance, but an entire generation of riders who were committed to unprecedented, wholesale blood doping.

JVV, for example, rode for US Postal for two years, which involved a fair share of doping. He was 25 at the time when he first joined up, and this was his first real shot at racing in Europe. For a guy who spent his entire life to that point to get to highest level of sport -- who presumably sacrificed a lot to get there -- I'd imagine it's extraordinarily difficult to turn down the "B12 shot" knowing to do so kills what is essentially your life's work.

Is it wrong to do it? Of course. But the common theme that seems to emerge from all of these guys is they felt enormous pressure -- both internal and external -- if they wanted to keep their job and fulfill those years of work they'd put in.

Obviously we'd want everyone to have this unerring moral compass. But I can't honestly say if I was in there shoes I'd have moral courage to walk away from decades of work. And to blithely act as if that was an easy choice remains 20/20 hindsight.

[FlashUNC]

Choosing to get indignant over doping, versus over some meaningful issue, is, I'm sorry, kind of a sucker's choice. Come on, show a little self-respect -- care about something that matters.

Um, this is a forum about bicycles for Pete's sake.

[54ny77]

yawn. he's full of ···· and just as culpable as the rest of 'em. too bad c.c. just gave him a venue. probably doped for years. well at least up until 2006, because that's when he and other went clean of course.

some of you may not remember how he publicly lambasted landis in print and declared his innocence unequivocally.

funny how he and others all ultimately squealed when faced with prospect of pound in the arse prison, eh.

frankly, he & all banned or accused should go crawl in a hole and talk amongst themselves. banned from sport and anything & everything to do with cycling for life. throw in some jail time for that matter. them, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, their enablers.

[weisan]

Time for a commercial break...don't go away, we'll be right back!

Rogers took his first win at Japan Cup...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/japan-cup-2013/results

[cachagua]

Um, this is a forum about bicycles for Pete's sake.

Yes, my point exactly. Let's talk about bicycles instead. Doping, and lying -- neither one matters to bicycling. Completely disconnected issues.

Unless you believe the hype spun by the scandal industry. This documentarist who discovered he had a bunch of footage of Lance lying -- did he think, "Wow, this is really important!"? Not for an instant. What he thought was "Wow, I've got a gold mine here!" He believes he can convince you to pay attention to his little collection of interviews, maybe even pay money for the privilege of paying attention -- or failing that, at least sell ad space in the bottom of the frame. . .

Let's come back to lies and their consequences. An awful lot of former enthusiasts are enjoying pro bike racing far less than they used to. Their minds are filled with mistrust and suspicion about the riders, the teams, the sponsors, the governing bodies. . . when they see a beautiful result in a race, they can't enjoy it. And is this suspicion the result of anyone doping? No! While the doping was going on, everyone LOVED the racing! It's the result of all the screeching in the media, the investigations and accusations, the movies and the books: all that has become the show now, and overshadowed the actual competition. This is not because of athletes' behavior, but because the lie that it matters is so heavily hyped.

Okay, maybe the scandal is more entertaining to you than the racing. Enjoy!

[Polyglot]

I worked for Michael's father back when Michael was only 9 years old. I remember him tagging along on club rides or riding the tandem with his dad or any number of other people (including with me). I remember him running around the shop and getting indoctrinated in bicycles and cycling. He was always in awe of the bikes, the riders, everything that was tied to the sport. He would talk to the old 6-day racers and listen to their stories. He was soaking up everything. Rarely have I ever seen anybody that young be so totally enamored of a sport. I remember when he started racing. He was an OK racer but was generally outdone by those who were genetically more gifted and more powerful than him, however he never got discouraged because he loved the sport and everything tied to it. He worked harder than any of us. He continued where everybody else would have given up. He made use of the cycling culture that he had learned about growing up, he got to better understand tactics and team work. He became a mainstay of the teams he rode on. Not because he was going to win the race necessarily but because he could do everything and had more heart than almost everybody. I remember returning to Toronto one summer from my then home in Italy to hear that Michael was going over to race in Europe to get some experience. I remember asking his dad whether he wanted me to check out the possibility of getting him a spot on some Italian team. It was not necessary as Michael was doing things on his own, his passion for the sport was leading the way.

It is easy for those of us who are on the sidelines to criticize the doping by the domestiques, but I believe that there is a divide as wide as the Atlantic Ocean between the use by somebody like Michael and the team leaders. I believe it has been amply shown that on certain teams and in particular Lance/Johan's teams that the pressure to dope came down from above and if one did not play by the team rules you were out. As it is, Michael never once was "permitted" to race the Tour while with Lance, even though this was clearly the main race of the season for everybody on the team. His results also do not suggest that he ever used the doping for personal results, but rather exclusively to better carry out the thankless work of a domestique. This certainly does not absolve him from any blame but does make the situation quite different than that of Lance, Landis and many others.

I will definitely read his new book when it comes out and I could readily see him working as a knowledgeable and capable commentator on TV or perhaps even a directeur sportif.