Horner vents on Twitter last night

[Keith A]

Interesting article on CyclingNews about Horner's tweets last night...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/horner-vents-frustrations-on-twitter

Horner’s tweets:

9.37pm Pacific Daylight Time: 15 years old and up @ 4:30am before school starts to train while dreaming of winning a grand tour. I did that!

9.44pm PDT Riding your bike to work so that you can train for hours in the dark after works done. I did that!

9.53pm PDT Hitching a ride across the country for months w/no money (almost I had 400+-) to race. I did that!

9.58pm PDT Sleeping in hotels,host family houses,cars,and park benches to get to the races. I did that!

10.02pm PDT Pro teams won't give you chance, so you buy your own license and race as an independent. I did that!

10.09pm PDT Race pro for years w/out pay just hoping to make enough winnings to pay rent. I did that!

10.17pm PDT Win everything in the US, pass on the big pay check, go to Europe for minimum pay. #ididthat!

10.27pm PDT Live in Europe in a small apartment W/no car,computer,phone,TV, only a walk for company. #ididthat!

10.28pm PDT Oops. Only a Walkman for company. #ididthat!

10.33pm PDT Take a step back hoping to go forward again. #ididthat!

10.39pm PDT Winning again but told I'm to old to go back to Europe a second time but keep fighting anyways. #ididthat!

10.45pm PDT Sell everything I own for a second chance at a grand tour, fly over with a 140bucks in my pocket. #ididthat!

10.54pm PDT Start going up the ladder with each year passing while never getting that leader respect and belief. #ididthat!

11.00pm PDT Up @6am w/3kids so I can drop them off @school before I go train all day for the Grand tours. #ididthat!

11.03pm PDT Finding that belief, given the leadership, delivering on it. #ididthat!

11.13pm PDT Moving up the ladder w/that continued belief, big sponsors on board now. #ididthat!

11.18pm PDT Whole season disappearing fast but still working hard to make it to those grand tours. #ididthat!

11.21pm PDT Amazing help and belief from all my family, friends, and fans to get back there. #ididthat!

11.32pm PDT Works paid off, forms back, but by now some have lost belief. #ididthat!

11.40pm PDT So much stress & work 4another start at a dream that began many years ago. #ididthat!

11.43pm PDT A life time of work and a stage/jersey arrive and disappear over night.
#ididthat!

11.51pm PDT 100% is given and second time it happens, only to pass just as fast but
belief is returning. #ididthat!

12.04am PDT The jersey returned only this time for life, the stories to tell before & during it are epic & life time. #ididthat

12.08am PDT Yes it was worth it and yes the dream continues... With or without the belief. #ididthat!

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

He will be missed.

[carpediemracing]

I wonder if he was drinking.

I was thinking about the whole thing. Either every team owner is unwilling to touch him due to the "not-belief" or he's asking for a crap ton of money (or his agent is anyway) so he's pricing himself out of the saturated market. The first is tough because who is willing to bet money on Horner's purity - seems like no one. The second is tough because so many teams folded that some expensive riders are taking massive pay cuts (although they might be loaded with performance bonuses).

I thought that all this stuff was just a bluff while he negotiated a contract but now I wonder if he'll get a contract.

If he really believes in himself then he'll sign a contract that has a massive pay cut (or at least no massive pay increase) that is loaded with performance bonuses.

[Lewis Moon]

I wonder if he was drinking.

I was thinking about the whole thing. Either every team owner is unwilling to touch him due to the "not-belief" or he's asking for a crap ton of money (or his agent is anyway) so he's pricing himself out of the saturated market. The first is tough because who is willing to bet money on Horner's purity - seems like no one. The second is tough because so many teams folded that some expensive riders are taking massive pay cuts (although they might be loaded with performance bonuses).

I thought that all this stuff was just a bluff while he negotiated a contract but now I wonder if he'll get a contract.

If he really believes in himself then he'll sign a contract that has a massive pay cut (or at least no massive pay increase) that is loaded with performance bonuses.

That. The whole purity thingy can be worked out by a simple contract clause....

[Fixed]

He has done a lot
Cheers c.h. :):beer:

[rileystylee]

His speech after winning his "Grand Tour" was cringeworthy - it appears he's still going on about great he is/was.
Well done Mr Horner - time to move on now.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Rumor has it Contador took a pay cut.

I wonder if he was drinking.

I was thinking about the whole thing. Either every team owner is unwilling to touch him due to the "not-belief" or he's asking for a crap ton of money (or his agent is anyway) so he's pricing himself out of the saturated market. The first is tough because who is willing to bet money on Horner's purity - seems like no one. The second is tough because so many teams folded that some expensive riders are taking massive pay cuts (although they might be loaded with performance bonuses).

I thought that all this stuff was just a bluff while he negotiated a contract but now I wonder if he'll get a contract.

If he really believes in himself then he'll sign a contract that has a massive pay cut (or at least no massive pay increase) that is loaded with performance bonuses.

[mcteague]

I really like him but think he will have a tough time getting what he thinks he is worth. He did just win a big tour but is old and seems to get injured quite a bit. He really does not have much time left and the fact that he has the stink of Lance on him makes things even more difficult.

I suspect he will sign for less than he wants, have an okay year or two and retire.

Tim

[Joachim]

Maybe Horner and Oleg Tinkov should get together for Twitter Meltdown Tuesdays:

http://www.neilbrowne.com/2013/07/oleg-tinkov-is-on-a-tear/

[harryblack]

If he really believes in himself then he'll sign a contract that has a massive pay cut (or at least no massive pay increase) that is loaded with performance bonuses.

That's it, exactly. Vuelta aside, how many racing days has Horner had in the last three seasons? Stay up, get results, get paid, otherwise...

Overwhelming circumstantial evidence says there's ZERO reason to believe Horner has raced any cleaner than his competitors, which is to say not at all, when it mattered.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Maybe Horner and Oleg Tinkov should get together for Twitter Meltdown Tuesdays:

http://www.neilbrowne.com/2013/07/oleg-tinkov-is-on-a-tear/

That effing Tinkov needs to disappear.

Doubt Horner needs a drink to ramble like that. The man loves to talk.

[54ny77]

Horner's just getting better, like Mork from Ork's anti-aging. It's amazing!

http://0.tqn.com/d/bicycling/1/0/B/7/-/-/robin_williams.jpg

[Joachim]

Poor baby. I thought he was ok after his Vuelta win. Now he just sounds like another whino about how unfair everything is and what he deserves. Afterall "#ididthat!"

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . what Dizzy Dean said:

"It ain't braggin' if you can back it up."

I think he can back it up.

BBD

[bobswire]

He did do that, more than most of us can say. He's right, he has every reason to feel slighted if you've followed his career at all. Plus the fact by all accounts he is a good guy.

[Joachim]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201207/bragging-when-is-it-ok-and-when-is-it-not-ok

[ultraman6970]

Is natural that he is asking more money, he has won several small and big tours already, more than some riders do in all their careers. My personal view of the problem is that trek has the brothers on board since a couple of months ago, and pretty much unless we are talking of bmc or la vie claire, trek won't bring another general classification rider.

You have to see other things too, trek should have cleaned their act after LA but again they got big schlep that in my opinion shouldn't have been hired just because of moral thing, but sure AS and the director they have now applied some pressure to have big brother or small brother was not going to race for trek (like if the m..f.. was the most consistent and valuable rider in the pro peloton in the last year). As I said before, bad luck for Horner, the new spanish team died before start and add the schleps, so no way horner was going to get in the team unless maybe as a domestique, and now that horner won a big one he really doesnt deserve that IMO.

Horner has a good reason to be frustrated, the guy have been racing for other people for many many many many years, like in your job... if the boss wants to keep under water till the day you retire then that will happen and nobody will know how good you are.

Sure many will agree with me on this, we don't need a crystal ball to figure it out that trek besides FC and Jens the team just sucks, at least adding Horner as plan B GC guy or sending it as a captain to the B circuit races they have a chance to win something, why? the time Horner got the back up of the team he delivered. AS only delivered "turds" while seated in the toiled for the last 2 years, same his brother, yes he got his butt broken because he doesn't know how to handle his TT bike, but it is true also that Lemond won the TdF two years after being shot, Hoogerland got more stitches than Frankenstein 2 years ago in the TdF and actually he finished the race, the same year AS complained about riders going down hill too fast while raining and stuff... last weekend he did not even finish lombardi and yes he is a climber, right?

2014 season will have the spanish trio, roche (count him because the sucker has heart to race), nibali, pozzovivo, a whole bunch of Colombian climbers plus froome and the tasmanian, all of them can TT and climb better or consistently every year. That being said do you guys think trek will have a chance after seeing the WC, TdF, giro and Vuelta performances from all of the guys I mentioned?? From the bottom of my heart, no way in hell unless they have a plan B, that IMO is Horner.

Hope a team gives a chance to horner, he deserves it, specially after the master class he gave to the best riders in the world during the vuelta.

[Climb01742]

The challenge is, contracts are based on expected future performance. Given Chris's age, expected future Grand Tour wins are close to none. He_has_done a lot. And that's the problem. The odds of doing it again are small. In many respects, his Grand Tour win may be the least valuable in monetary terms ever. Bummer but true.

[harryblack]

The challenge is, contracts are based on expected future performance. Given Chris's age, expected future Grand Tour wins are close to none. He_has_done a lot. And that's the problem. The odds of doing it again are small. In many respects, his Grand Tour win may be the least valuable in monetary terms ever. Bummer but true.

This is so obvious I don't understand why everyone doesn't see it but apparently they do not...

Again, count the # racing days Horner has had in the last three years...

There's this argument-- I believe Horner himself suggests it-- that his injuries, crashes etc have E-X-T-E-N-D-E-D his career because he's less burnt than any other 41-42 year old rider but still...

Also, ** ALL ** the skepticism is justified; no matter how smiley dude is & how far he rides never wearing gloves, to believe that he's ONE non-doper on teams, cultures full of dopers is asking a bit much.

And I don't even "care" about that, per se (mostly level playing field, am more insulted by frauds like Jens, Millar, everyone who stopped doping in 2006 etc), but nobody should be surprised Horner = big $$$ 2014, esp. after crashing out of the World's...

While his chief competition all rode strongly there & Lombardia.

[1centaur]

What he did at the Vuelta was impressive. As a team director, you don't pay a ton of your budget for that because:

He's almost done

He needed a very specific course type to win

He was unusually fresh at that time of year

He has not been consistent (at all) in his European career

Europeans will not fan worship him

Americans don't believe anymore; he won't sell product.

Now that he's tasted GC blood he might not be a good super domestique to someone with more marketing power.


He was not exceptional when it counted and where it counted when he was young enough to be worth a lot. That's the way the cookie crumbles. He did something at the end that most riders at the top end will never, ever do. He should be proud. But he won't get paid a lot by rational people. If he was smart, he'd be on a charm tour now to get an analyst job as the beloved elder statesman of American cycling, but he's going the other way. I think he'd be a very good DS. If he wants to live the life he should visualize what it takes to get there.

[rwsaunders]

he was not exceptional when it counted and where it counted when he was young enough to be worth a lot. That's the way the cookie crumbles. He did something at the end that most riders at the top end will never, ever do. He should be proud. But he won't get paid a lot by rational people. if he was smart, he'd be on a charm tour now to get an analyst job as the beloved elder statesman of american cycling, but he's going the other way. I think he'd be a very good ds. If he wants to live the life he should visualize what it takes to get there.

+1

[Elefantino]

Horner's just getting better, like Mork from Ork's anti-aging. It's amazing!

http://0.tqn.com/d/bicycling/1/0/B/7/-/-/robin_williams.jpg
I hate that photo because THEY CROPPED ME OUT!!

[Mr. Pink]

The challenge is, contracts are based on expected future performance.

Not in Baseball. Re: Pujols getting, what, 250 million from the Angels for basically his past performance, because, odds are, he will never attain his former glory at his age, and the last year of around 25 million on the contract will be paid when he's 41. His career may even be over, with this foot surgery.

Let's not even go near Arod's contract.

[AgilisMerlin]

sometimes the hammer
sometimes the nail

[CunegoFan]

As Twitter meltdowns go this seems rather tame. I don't see what the big deal is.

[Joachim]

As Twitter meltdowns go this seems rather tame. I don't see what the big deal is.

I guess spending time in the children's oncology and chemo unit makes me too unsympathetic to cries of #ididthat!.....

[saab2000]

Horner needs to take the Trek deal and call it good. That deal might not be on the table forever.

He just won the Vuelta but he's no spring chicken either. Hate to say it, because I like him, but his market value in a shrinking market just isn't that great.

[Keith A]

Saab -- I didn't realize he had been offered a contract from Trek. Where did you read that?

[Shortsocks]

I feel for the guy. He busted his ass all of his life, in a sport where the majority of his home country couldn't care, for a sport he loves. With nothing he did something that NONE of us haven't done. (Pardon the members who have won grand tours).

Hes got kids, and a family, he is expecting a little bit of a raise. Unfortunately sports, including this one, are based off of money. And that money dictates who gets to ride and who doesnt. Im still SOUR about Euskatel-Euskadi. :mad:

I feel for him. Hes been sidelined for many of years. And even Pooped on by Contador and Armstrong too. I like the Guy. What can I say. Ive always gone for the Underdog. I hope he gets signed on by an American Team. We need a little bit more pride from this Here Shores.

[saab2000]

Saab -- I didn't realize he had been offered a contract from Trek. Where did you read that?

I think it's on cyclingnews dot com. Unless I misunderstood the article.

[Keith A]

Got it..thanks.

The Vuelta a España winner is still in negotiations with Trek Factory Team for next season, but so far a deal has not been signed.

[jt2gt]

I'm all for a guy trying to get his payday...but if this is what he is asking, no wonder he hasn't been signed yet (over $1million).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernaudeau-i-was-offered-horner-at-eur750-000-per-year

He may get it, who knows. But at that price, it takes a lot of thinking/negotiating to pull the trigger.

JT

[bobswire]

I'm all for a guy trying to get his payday...but if this is what he is asking, no wonder he hasn't been signed yet (over $1million).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bernaudeau-i-was-offered-horner-at-eur750-000-per-year

He may get it, who knows. But at that price, it takes a lot of thinking/negotiating to pull the trigger.

JT

Horner'a agent offered him at that price, standard procedure to begin negotiations. Obviously he didn't want Horner neither do I see where Horner turned down anything. LINK?
Going to the press with that to tarnish Horner is rank.

[bobswire]

I guess spending time in the children's oncology and chemo unit makes me too unsympathetic to cries of #ididthat!.....

Get over yourself already, I had a major heart surgery 6 years old , father died same year,mother had to raise 4 kids working in a candle factory,Mother died from cancer later yet for some reason I'm able to separate that from Horner's venting. You're the one comparing the two, not Horner.

[TPetsch]

After reading all of those IDidThat's it's no wonder these guys feel the urge to dope.

[christian]

I'm sure Chris is a lovely guy, but I think he's mistaken about his market worth. If I were a DS, I'd be offering him somewhere around $250,000. He may not like it, but he could work at that rate. And it's still good money to ride a bike.

[Joachim]

Get over yourself already, I had a major heart surgery 6 years old , father died same year,mother had to raise 4 kids working in a candle factory,Mother died from cancer later yet for some reason I'm able to separate that from Horner's venting. You're the one comparing the two, not Horner.

Whoa, slow down there Bob. I just feel like he is whining. No need to go all personal on me. I like Horner probably more than most, but its a buyers market and he is not doing himself any favors by going to Twitter. I have no beef with you or a dog in Horner's fight. Jeez, sensitive...

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I'm sure Chris is a lovely guy, but I think he's mistaken about his market worth. If I were a DS, I'd be offering him somewhere around $250,000. He may not like it, but he could work at that rate. And it's still good money to ride a bike.

Plus 1. But add bonuses/incentives if he wins big races.

Past performance (even if the past was 2 weeks ago) does not guarantee future performance. Just ask the NY Rangers!!!!

I like the guy, we need more animated guys like him.

[MattTuck]

I'm sure Chris is a lovely guy, but I think he's mistaken about his market worth. If I were a DS, I'd be offering him somewhere around $250,000. He may not like it, but he could work at that rate. And it's still good money to ride a bike.

Yep. If he were a 24 year old winner of the Vuleta, he'd be seen as a rising star and teams would probably be happy to lay down a big bet on his future. As it is, he's seen as hitting his peak too late in his career to make a big bet on the future (however long that future might be... ). That doesn't take anything away from his win, how hard he works, or him as a person, just the economics of the situation and teams doing some risk analysis.

I can understand his frustration. Works like a dog his whole life, wins one of the biggest races in all of cycling, and there's no big pay day. I'd be miffed too. Get up, dust yourself off, and think about the future Chris. You're a great guy, you could be a great DS, motivating the younger riders, bringing years of experience to a team, or be a commentator. Even if you get a contract for a few more years, you know your future isn't going to be made in the saddle.... start thinking about your transition. Given what he went through, and the single minded pursuit of riding the bike, that may be hard for him to do. Maybe he needs some time away.

[bobswire]

Whoa, slow down there Bob. I just feel like he is whining. No need to go all personal on me. I like Horner probably more than most, but its a buyers market and he is not doing himself any favors by going to Twitter. I have no beef with you or a dog in Horner's fight. Jeez, sensitive...

Joachim, bringing children's oncology into the discussion spurred on my reply, my apologies.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm sure Chris is a lovely guy, but I think he's mistaken about his market worth. If I were a DS, I'd be offering him somewhere around $250,000. He may not like it, but he could work at that rate. And it's still good money to ride a bike.

And free clothes and bikes!

I agree. I like Chris also, I am skeptical of his, 'never saw it, never knew it was going on', attitude, but at 41, he is not 'worth' what he thinks.

Somebody brought up baseball..many older players, who think they still have something, get sent back to the minors(that's gotta be a slap in the face), for very low relative $..just to play.

We'll see how much he wants to be a pro cyclist next year. I'm guessing he will retire.

[rwsaunders]

And free clothes and bikes!

I agree. I like Chris also, I am skeptical of his, 'never saw it, never knew it was going on', attitude, but at 41, he is not 'worth' what he thinks.

Somebody brought up baseball..many older players, who think they still have something, get sent back to the minors(that's gotta be a slap in the face), for very low relative $..just to play.

We'll see how much he wants to be a pro cyclist next year. I'm guessing he will retire.

Don't forget the free Oakley's...

[Fixed]

Get over yourself already, I had a major heart surgery 6 years old , father died same year,mother had to raise 4 kids working in a candle factory,Mother died from cancer later yet for some reason I'm able to separate that from Horner's venting. You're the one comparing the two, not Horner.

Bob you are one of the fittest looking guys I have ever met , I like c.h. Too and wish him the best , he will be a retired racer soon , I don't think retired racers get pensions . :) thank you for yesterday it was great meeting you :)
Cheers

[FlashUNC]

I'm reminded of Anchorman with this latest Horner drama:

Take it easy Champ, why don't you stop talking for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1PqslRMWaE

[beeatnik]

buahahahahahah

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/worlds-greatest-pro-masters-racer-whiney-little-bitch/

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Love all the misspellings, funny. "posative," good stuff.

[djdj]

I don't really understand the hate towards Horner.

He's worked harder, longer on a bike than that blogger or, I'm guessing, anyone on this board.

Forgive, don't mock, the grammer/misspellings. Who hasn't done that with a phone after a few pops or otherwise (plus, like many pro's, he probably doesn't have a higher education)?

He's trying to get his last, best contract (which, I'm guessing, pays a whole lot more than commentator, DS or any other job for which a career cyclist is qualified).

[ultraman6970]

+1

[rwsaunders]

buahahahahahah

http://pvcycling.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/worlds-greatest-pro-masters-racer-whiney-little-bitch/

+1.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

Thought the "posative" was from another person. I'm not schooled on twitter (or facebook, for that matter). Check my posts in this thread, I happen to like Horner, and as said, what has that blogger done worth a salt? Probably not even worthy enough to shine Horner's shoes.

I don't really understand the hate towards Horner.

He's worked harder, longer on a bike than that blogger or, I'm guessing, anyone on this board.

Forgive, don't mock, the grammer/misspellings. Who hasn't done that with a phone after a few pops or otherwise (plus, like many pro's, he probably doesn't have a higher education)?

He's trying to get his last, best contract (which, I'm guessing, pays a whole lot more than commentator, DS or any other job for which a career cyclist is qualified).

[#campyuserftw]

I don't really understand the hate towards Horner.

He's worked harder, longer on a bike than that blogger or, I'm guessing, anyone on this board.

Forgive, don't mock, the grammer/misspellings. Who hasn't done that with a phone after a few pops or otherwise (plus, like many pro's, he probably doesn't have a higher education)?

He's trying to get his last, best contract (which, I'm guessing, pays a whole lot more than commentator, DS or any other job for which a career cyclist is qualified).

We cannot understand why his hemoglobin levels rose during the second half of the Vuelta...and while his hemoglobin levels went up, the baby red cells that should appear to create that spike of oxygen rich blood, do not:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15660/Bio-passport-expert-raises-concerns-about-Horners-published-biological-passport-values.aspx

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/Chris-Horner-Bio-Passport-Raises-Doubts.html?228815041&utm_campaign=googlenews&utm_source=googlenews&utm_medium=xmlfeed

Micro-dosing is the new dope. Unless Horner ate some special Spanish beef, his Vuelta blood numbers don't make sense, defy science, logic and beg us to believe that yes, it is impossible at 41, to believe the miracle.

[dnades]

I read that Outside article and was bothered a bit by the fact that the author did not address other possible factors that cause the hemoglobin to fluctuate in the manner that it did as well as the reticulyte count. IF there are no other factors other than PEDs than it would be easy to disqualify those people. Since that doesn't seem to be happening it stands to reason that there are other factors involved in effecting those values.

[cachagua]

If Nature, or Cell, or Lancet told us where the best telemarking was this winter, would we trust them?

I didn't think so. And I don't trust Outside about biology, either.

[#campyuserftw]

When Outside attacked Lance Armstrong, the magazine would sell out, as in people licking their lips with the accusations. Horner's data is math, science, numbers and the interview from Outside magazine, quotes the same source from Velo: 'Anti-doping expert Robin Parisotto'.

Outside or Inside magazine; the matter at hand: yet another Doping Expert, the same kind that did their best to go after Lance, is raising his eyebrows in looking at Chris Horner's Vuelta blood work. Why can't we all admit and at least suspect that micro-dosing is the new-new? Are we all naive all over again? We truly believe the peloton is clean? Mic-ro-dos-ing. Bits here and there. Tiny bits. Just enough to keep your numbers where you feel good day after day, recover, and go.

"Parisotto has a long history in anti-doping, acting as principal researcher of the EPO 2000 Project to develop the first-ever blood tests for EPO. He has worked on several other anti-doping projects, has published numerous peer-reviewed papers on the subject and has spoken around the globe at conferences.

Last week he voiced unease about Chris Horner’s biological passport, telling VeloNation that he had concerns about some of the values. While he said he was not in a position to make a clear ruling, he said that he believed further scrutiny was warranted

“If this was something that came across my desk for evaluation [as part of cycling’s biological passport panel – ed], I would certainly be putting a question mark on it,” he stated. “I’d at least request that further samples to be taken, particularly just before and during competitions, in order to see if the pattern was a one-off or if it persists.”

Asked how he felt about cycling in general now, Parisotto feels that there are clear differences than when the bio passport panel was formed in 2008.

“For me, I am seeing two things. I am seeing less abnormal profiles and the abnormal ones that I am seeing are certainly less perturbed than they used to be,” he said, confirming that things appeared to have toned down.

“So the ones that are still blood doping or using EPO or CERA or whatever, they are certainly doing it at a level which for me is going to be difficult for me to make a call one way or another, and therefore needs to go for a second or third review.”

This is encouraging for him, as he feels that even if riders are manipulating things so that their passports appear normal, that the gains are relatively minor and that the benefits are much less than before.

“I think it is also getting to the point where the changes are now so small, so subtle, that the athletes must have to question if this is worth pursuing,” he said. “Unless they are getting a benefit from all of this, there is no point in doing it.

“That is one of the beauties of the passport…it is not the be all and end all, but it certainly has made it a lot harder for someone to get a benefit from putting in such elaborate practices and dangerous practices into their kit, so to speak.”

He does however highlight a concern. The UCI acknowledged before that Lance Armstrong’s bio passport was never passed on to the experts after early 2009, explaining this by saying that his values never triggered alarm bells with the screening software used.

Parisotto is clear that relying on a computer programme has a serious drawback. “The problem with this approach is that it is not always about crossing these lower and higher thresholds [which the software red-flags – ed.]…it is about someone looking and seeing a pattern,” he said.

“I for one hope that all of that has changed and that the people who are reviewing which profiles need to be evaluated by the panel are actually looking at the data rather than just running it through the programme.

“The reason is that a lot of suspect profiles might not actually trigger those thresholds. However if you look at them, you think, ‘there is something not quite right here.’ I have seen quite a few.”


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15702/Parisotto-believes-new-anti-doping-structure-could-do-much-to-restore-cyclings-credibility.aspx#ixzz2j4Ifl9Nm

[FlashUNC]

If Horner did it clean, he's accomplished something the titans of the sport never managed to achieve. All for a guy who's never even been on the podium at a Grand Tour before in a long, long career. Seriously, Merckx, Anquetil, Hinault, Bartali (Coppi isn't entirely fair, given his premature death), Bobet -- the list goes on and on -- all failed to achieve what he did.

So either he's the subject of the greatest collective error in talent evaluation ever in the sport, or something else is afoot.

[cachagua]

Are we all naive all over again? ...Parisotto has a long history in anti-doping...

Joe McCarthy had a long history in anti-communism. Tomás de Torquemada had a long history in anti-heresy! Are we naive all over again?

When this was first called a witch-hunt, that might have been an exaggeration. But it's no exaggeration today. Remember, this guy doesn't make a penny when he has to admit someone's clean. (When he has to admit everybody's clean, he's out of a job!) To expect objectivity from him, or from others employed in the anti-doping industry, just isn't realistic.

The Spanish Inquisition began as a response to the Albigensian Heresy, which by the lights of Catholic orthodoxy was an honest-to-goodness threat. But it wasn't long before they didn't care who they rounded up, they just had to keep the thing going! Because once you're an Inquisitor, once they're paying you to be an Inquisitor, what are you gonna do -- quit, and go get a job?

No different here.

[CunegoFan]

Joe McCarthy had a long history in anti-communism. Tomás de Torquemada had a long history in anti-heresy! Are we naive all over again?

When this was first called a witch-hunt, that might have been an exaggeration. But it's no exaggeration today. Remember, this guy doesn't make a penny when he has to admit someone's clean. (When he has to admit everybody's clean, he's out of a job!) To expect objectivity from him, or from others employed in the anti-doping industry, just isn't realistic.

The Spanish Inquisition began as a response to the Albigensian Heresy, which by the lights of Catholic orthodoxy was an honest-to-goodness threat. But it wasn't long before they didn't care who they rounded up, they just had to keep the thing going! Because once you're an Inquisitor, once they're paying you to be an Inquisitor, what are you gonna do -- quit, and go get a job?

No different here.

Oh, brother. Next you will be likening the pursuit of cheaters to rounding up Jews.

[choke]

Because once you're an Inquisitor, once they're paying you to be an Inquisitor, what are you gonna do -- quit, and go get a job?...

[cfox]

We cannot understand why his hemoglobin levels rose during the second half of the Vuelta...and while his hemoglobin levels went up, the baby red cells that should appear to create that spike of oxygen rich blood, do not:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15660/Bio-passport-expert-raises-concerns-about-Horners-published-biological-passport-values.aspx

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/Chris-Horner-Bio-Passport-Raises-Doubts.html?228815041&utm_campaign=googlenews&utm_source=googlenews&utm_medium=xmlfeed

Micro-dosing is the new dope. Unless Horner ate some special Spanish beef, his Vuelta blood numbers don't make sense, defy science, logic and beg us to believe that yes, it is impossible at 41, to believe the miracle.
If his blood values were so whacked, why is it only outside parties that have taken notice? Is the bio-passport system so flawed and pathetic that bloggers, hacky magazines and forum participants are the only ones who can properly interpret the data? The scientists and doctors enrolled in the bio-passport program didn't just fall off the turnip truck...Is there some sort of delay pending? Can we expect a headline soon?

[ultraman6970]

Why a guy is saying that in general lines the count of whatever is lower? did not get that part.

[#campyuserftw]

If his blood values were so whacked, why is it only outside parties that have taken notice? Is the bio-passport system so flawed and pathetic that bloggers, hacky magazines and forum participants are the only ones who can properly interpret the data? The scientists and doctors enrolled in the bio-passport program didn't just fall off the turnip truck...Is there some sort of delay pending? Can we expect a headline soon?

Yes. Could be. And maybe.

See the internet for how pathetic bloggers, hacky magazines and forum participants broke down Armstrong's blood since 1999. Turned out this pathetic group which was not naive, was correct.

Horner's blood raises anyone's eyebrow. Unless they choose/opt to remain naive.

[Tandem Rider]

Not a doctor or doping expert here, but I am familiar with cycling's politics and I do know some of his former compatriots. I'm going to get a nice bottle of wine because the popcorn's gonna spoil before this plays out.

[alessandro]

If his blood values were so whacked, why is it only outside parties that have taken notice? Is the bio-passport system so flawed and pathetic that bloggers, hacky magazines and forum participants are the only ones who can properly interpret the data? The scientists and doctors enrolled in the bio-passport program didn't just fall off the turnip truck...Is there some sort of delay pending? Can we expect a headline soon?

The biopassport is unfortunately only as good as a) the people who designed it, and more importantly b) the people who administer it (the UCI has to refer cases to the review committee, and even then, they only pick a few cases to prosecute, because a wealthy athlete can tie them up in a costly, protracted legal process).

Here is one of Puchowicz's rants on his tumblr site (http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/64428620306/hittin-snooze-since-2009) (the same author as the Outside piece):
how biopassport software failed to flag armstrong doping

the biopassport has a major flaw

it only flags massive

99.9% full ridiculous outliers

while being blind

to

patterns

As for Mr. Horner's future, when was the last time a GT winner was without a contract? The market has spoken.

[cachagua]

Next you will be likening the pursuit of cheaters to rounding up Jews.

Yes thank you, I just did.

King's line was "until it means as little as the color of their eyes". In respectable circles, that's what religion is like nowadays -- it means so little that no one even mentions it, it is beneath notice, beneath consciousness. And that's what doping was like in the 90s -- no one paid a bit of attention, and the racing was marvelous.

But what we have now is a group of people insisting that we should, we MUST pay attention to it. They won't admit it, but this is only for their own job security. And I find it disappointing that so many of us believe them, is all.

I wish it could be as much of a non-issue as-- well, see? I can't even think of anything that insignificant!

[djdj]

As for Mr. Horner's future, when was the last time a GT winner was without a contract? The market has spoken.

And said what? That he is asking too much money at 41 years old? Or that "the market" knows he is doping (which, of course, "they" can't even know)? If you are implying the latter, it makes no sense.

[cfox]

Yes. Could be. And maybe.

See the internet for how pathetic bloggers, hacky magazines and forum participants broke down Armstrong's blood since 1999. Turned out this pathetic group which was not naive, was correct.

Horner's blood raises anyone's eyebrow. Unless they choose/opt to remain naive.

No. Other than a lame, half baked attempt in 2009, Armstrong's historical blood profile was not public record (for obvious reasons). Bloggers, etc. based their claims regarding LA initially on the sniff test, followed by rumors, innuendo, and finally people (Andreus, Emma whatshername, etc.) coming out of the woodwork. They, as a group, weren't provided Armstrong's blood data to interpret and compare vs. the anti-doping authority's interpretation.

This is very different from "I never failed a test." Horner's data is the same data being provided to anti-doping authorities. My question is why, if his blood "raises anyone's eyebrow" haven't we heard a peep from the only eyebrows that matter? This is not a defense of Horner, but an honest question regarding how the bio-passport works in regards to the timing of building a case.

[alessandro]

Yes thank you, I just did.

King's line was "until it means as little as the color of their eyes". In respectable circles, that's what religion is like nowadays -- it means so little that no one even mentions it, it is beneath notice, beneath consciousness. And that's what doping was like in the 90s -- no one paid a bit of attention, and the racing was marvelous.

But what we have now is a group of people insisting that we should, we MUST pay attention to it. They won't admit it, but this is only for their own job security. And I find it disappointing that so many of us believe them, is all.

I wish it could be as much of a non-issue as-- well, see? I can't even think of anything that insignificant!

:no:
Dude, you're bringing in the Albigensians, quoting MLK... it's a pity you're so well-read and so blind. We've been lied to for more than 20 years. That's your normal, so you're inured to it. But it's not real. There was also some collateral damage of careers ruined by LA's thugly behavior.

Second, your halcyon daze seems to have colored your memory: The racing was not always marvelous. Bjarne Riis would not be a TdF winner without EPO. Indurain's five-in-a-row would not have happened without EPO, and those consecutive wins did not make for thrilling racing.

Actually, what we are seeing in cycling is quite interesting: The authorities are/were corrupt, and wealthy litigious stars like LA scared the press away from digging, it was left to people on the fringes of journalism to do the digging and raise the serious questions (never mind the French media). Now, people like Paul Kimmage are vindicated.

If you don't give a damn about doping, or being lied to, fine. But don't act like it's not a problem worth caring about.

[alessandro]

And said what? That he is asking too much money at 41 years old? Or that "the market" knows he is doping (which, of course, "they" can't even know)? If you are implying the latter, it makes no sense.

It could be the money, it's almost definitely his age, and I am most certainly implying the latter. Here's how Inrng put it:

No job for Horner?
Talking of old champions, it’s still astonishing that a grand tour winner can’t find a job for 2014. Perhaps Chris Horner has a contract but if he did then you’d think it would be worth boasting about before the media goes into hibernation? Which suggests he hasn’t got a ride.
...
Horner’s problems include his age and worries about skeletons in USADA’s cupboard.

http://inrng.com/2013/10/shorts-tuesday/

[earlfoss]

If Horner doesn't get a contract for next season it will be a headline for about two days and then that's it. Over. No one cares. I think in the coming years his involvement in doping will come out one way or another.

[christian]

Will come out? He was Rider-15 in the USADA Reasoned Decision. Ok it was only the one time and he never saw anything else untoward, ever, but still.

Even so, DSs don't care. This is about money and age, not dope.

[cachagua]

So blind...

Blind? Okay, catch me up -- what point have I been missing?

[54ny77]

Horner's like a hot chick with a well-publicized case of herpes.

[alessandro]

Blind? Okay, catch me up -- what point have I been missing?

Gosh, all of the points:
-to the idea that doping is wrong
-to the idea that even though "everyone was doing it," that still doesn't make it OK
-to the concept that people working to catch dopers might be motivated by something other than their job preservation (a straw man you set up)
-to the fact that you've seemed to completely miss the point of just about every history lesson in the last millenium or two.

Other than that, have a nice day.

[LJohnny]

Maybe it would have been better for him to come in a "hot" second or even third in the Vuelta. His performance was just too much of a C&C Music Factory style.

[pbarry]

Maybe it would have been better for him to come in a "hot" second or even third in the Vuelta. His performance was just too much of a C&C Music Factory style.

Good one. :hello:

Anybody but Horner, and I'd call foul. But, and he's said this, that his time off the bike due to injury, has probably extended his career. This was a once in a lifetime performance. Every DS knows it, as they've seen him around for 20 years.

One of my favorite riders back in the day was Joaquim Agostinho, who finished the 1983 Tour in fifth place, at age 41, and won the Alp d'huez stage at 37. He had a far more consistent career than Horner. Worth the wiki read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaquim_Agostinho

[alessandro]

One of my favorite riders back in the day was Joaquim Agostinho, who finished the 1983 Tour in fifth place, at age 41, and won the Alp d'huez stage at 37. He had a far more consistent career than Horner. Worth the wiki read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaquim_Agostinho

That was terrific--thanks for that.

As the wiki page said, he was not built like a skinny climber:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5r3qUg0howY/TPXBpZNIyJI/AAAAAAAAA7o/gHMhBejqKTg/s1600/agostinho.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

That was terrific--thanks for that.

As the wiki page said, he was not built like a skinny climber:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5r3qUg0howY/TPXBpZNIyJI/AAAAAAAAA7o/gHMhBejqKTg/s1600/agostinho.jpg

Hope the wrench got hammered for not gluing the tubie on right!

[Joachim]

How long before Hesjedal says he is sorry...

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15733/Rasmussen-makes-doping-claims-against-Hesjedal-Sorensen-Hj-and-others.aspx

[CunegoFan]

How long before Hesjedal says he is sorry...

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15733/Rasmussen-makes-doping-claims-against-Hesjedal-Sorensen-Hj-and-others.aspx

This is not a surprise. Hesjedal rode for a long list of dirty road teams and there have long been stories about what he and his circle did when he was a mountain biker.

He is in a bad situation. He is Canada's only GT winner. Even if he won the Giro clean on Garmin, admitting to past doping will destroy his reputation. He needs to make a statement, but he cannot deny dope use right now because Bruyneel's arbitration is being held next month in London. Bruyneel may throw a lot of people, including Hesjedal, under the bus to reduce his own sanction.

[Joachim]

This is not a surprise. Hesjedal rode for a long list of dirty road teams and there have long been stories about what he and his circle did when he was a mountain biker.

He is in a bad situation. He is Canada's only GT winner. Even if he won the Giro clean on Garmin, admitting to past doping will destroy his reputation. He needs to make a statement, but he cannot deny dope use right now because Bruyneel's arbitration is being held next month in London. Bruyneel may throw a lot of people, including Hesjedal, under the bus to reduce his own sanction.

Bingo!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada

[54ny77]

Thank goodness it was only in 2003. Just that one time. At band camp.

Bingo!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hesjedal-admits-to-doping-says-evidence-was-given-to-usada

[Joachim]

Lies upon lies...

So according to Rasmussen he showed Hesjedal and Sheppard how to use EPO in 2003... Sheppard was eventually busted for EPO in 2006. According to him he started using it after an accident in 2005

http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hints/chris-sheppard-on-cheating-by-doping

According to Sheppard in 2006... "I guess it is tough for all of you to accept and I don't blame anyone that is disappointed nor do I blame people posting on the internet or talking behind my back or thinking that I cheated to achieve past results. I can only say that I have never doped and that my results are consistent for year to year. As are my hematocrit levels, blood values, testosterone all which can be verified through past UCI test dates, out of competition testing and controls at the races".

Really????

[CunegoFan]

Thank goodness it was only in 2003. Just that one time. At band camp.

Good thing he cleaned up before riding for U.S. Postal and Phonak. :rolleyes: He is also one of those curious cases where his greatest results were done clean. Funny how that works. It makes you wonder why anyone bothers to dope.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

They. All. Dope.

[christian]

Good thing he cleaned up before riding for U.S. Postal and Phonak. :rolleyes: He is also one of those curious cases where his greatest results were done clean. Funny how that works. It makes you wonder why anyone bothers to dope.You can only achieve your greastest results when you have been down that dark road and are now riding for redemption from your past sins. Or something.

[harryblack]

You can only achieve your greastest results when you have been down that dark road and are now riding for redemption from your past sins. Or something.

Excellent!

And don't forget, Lance made him do it...

[Louis]

Hope the wrench got hammered for not gluing the tubie on right!

You just know he's thinking "And I wanted to use clinchers today!"