Saratoga Frameworks models

[jpw]

http://saratogaframeworks.com/2013/10/04/introducing-our-first-new-models-race-ti-cx-ti-cx-steel-saratoga-frameworks/

[FlashUNC]

That head badge design looks, um, familiar.

[biker72]

5 year warranty.

[jpw]

that head badge design looks, um, familiar.

ff?

[dd74]

Good luck to SF. If the same Serotta builders are assembling these frames, I suspect they'll be of very good quality.

[laupsi]

That head badge design looks, um, familiar.

like ENVE perhaps?

[charliedid]

Serotta Fly

[phcollard]

Meh.

[Joachim]

You did see they brought back steel? And you can still buy Serotta SE and SG frames.

[FlashUNC]

ff?

That was my gut reaction, honestly.

Very Firefly-ish.

[54ny77]

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.moviefone.com/media/2010/09/mcdowells-facade-438-091010.jpg

[jpw]

That was my gut reaction, honestly.

Very Firefly-ish.

similarish, but not confusingly similar, so as to confuse a consumer.

the FF logo is more abstract.

[FlashUNC]

similarish, but not confusingly similar, so as to confuse a consumer.

the FF logo is more abstract.

Why even go down that road though? Stirke out and come up with something totally different and unique.

[bloody sunday]

Why even go down that road though? Stirke out and come up with something totally different and unique.

you're always going to "look" like something else. they're objects, who cares if the badge looks like ff's. guess what? all bikes look similar

[jpw]

Why even go down that road though? Stirke out and come up with something totally different and unique.

i'm not convinced they did.

ought to have had a design competition, to raise brand awareness, with a custom frame as the prize.

not so many frame builder have a geo brand name.

[charliedid]

you're always going to "look" like something else. they're objects, who cares if the badge looks like ff's. guess what? all bikes look similar

Branding sells bikes...

Notice that nobody said "I bet it rides like a Firefly"

[jbrainin]

Their logo looks like it was designed by Helen Keller. Ick.

[jpw]

Moving along, opinions about the models?

[FlashUNC]

you're always going to "look" like something else. they're objects, who cares if the badge looks like ff's. guess what? all bikes look similar

Couple reasons from my mkting centric brain these days. 1) This is a brand trying to start from scratch and disassociate itself from a rather contentious recent history. For that reason alone, I like some of the new logo work. It's more modern and a distinct departure from the Serotta scripts.

However, 2) This is one boutique builder in the Northeast specializing in mostly TI bikes whose branding now looks similar to another boutique builder in the Northeast who specializes in TI bikes. This isn't all that different from the problem post-war bike manufacturers faced when tube shape, lugs, etc, made it impossible to tell the difference by eyesight. Bianchi adopted that celeste color. Cinelli has that flying logo. And a Colnago isn't a Colnago without that clover somewhere on the bike.

My point is that for a brand starting from scratch, essentially, it's imperative they have a clean break from the past and -- more importantly -- have a unique voice in the marketplace. If you can look at the logo and your first thought it "Hey, they remind me of X, or Y or Z" competitor, then it's a mis-step, plain and simple. They needed something that isn't a distillation of all the design queues their competitors are using or the trends of the moment, but something uniquely theirs.

Moving along, opinions about the models?

Branding aside, I think they've done a great job with the models. They seem to be hitting all the sweet spots. The big question, of course, will be pricing.

[bloody sunday]

Couple reasons from my mkting centric brain these days. 1) This is a brand trying to start from scratch and disassociate itself from a rather contentious recent history. For that reason alone, I like some of the new logo work. It's more modern and a distinct departure from the Serotta scripts.

However, 2) This is one boutique builder in the Northeast specializing in mostly TI bikes whose branding now looks similar to another boutique builder in the Northeast who specializes in TI bikes. This isn't all that different from the problem post-war bike manufacturers faced when tube shape, lugs, etc, made it impossible to tell the difference by eyesight. Bianchi adopted that celeste color. Cinelli has that flying logo. And a Colnago isn't a Colnago without that clover somewhere on the bike.

My point is that for a brand starting from scratch, essentially, it's imperative they have a clean break from the past and -- more importantly -- have a unique voice in the marketplace. If you can look at the logo and your first thought it "Hey, they remind me of X, or Y or Z" competitor, then it's a mis-step, plain and simple. They needed something that isn't a distillation of all the design queues their competitors are using or the trends of the moment, but something uniquely theirs.



Branding aside, I think they've done a great job with the models. They seem to be hitting all the sweet spots. The big question, of course, will be pricing.

excellent points

[charliedid]

Couple reasons from my mkting centric brain these days. 1) This is a brand trying to start from scratch and disassociate itself from a rather contentious recent history. For that reason alone, I like some of the new logo work. It's more modern and a distinct departure from the Serotta scripts.

However, 2) This is one boutique builder in the Northeast specializing in mostly TI bikes whose branding now looks similar to another boutique builder in the Northeast who specializes in TI bikes. This isn't all that different from the problem post-war bike manufacturers faced when tube shape, lugs, etc, made it impossible to tell the difference by eyesight. Bianchi adopted that celeste color. Cinelli has that flying logo. And a Colnago isn't a Colnago without that clover somewhere on the bike.

My point is that for a brand starting from scratch, essentially, it's imperative they have a clean break from the past and -- more importantly -- have a unique voice in the marketplace. If you can look at the logo and your first thought it "Hey, they remind me of X, or Y or Z" competitor, then it's a mis-step, plain and simple. They needed something that isn't a distillation of all the design queues their competitors are using or the trends of the moment, but something uniquely theirs.



Branding aside, I think they've done a great job with the models. They seem to be hitting all the sweet spots. The big question, of course, will be pricing.

Exactly!

I will add that branding isn't everything...in this case it is very very important. Otherwise they are forever going to be that Co. that sort of used to be Serotta, kind of.

It's also similar to hearing a new band all your friends are talking about and thinking, it sounds a lot like so and so and a little like that other band...

If they did all this early legwork in-house good for them. They did a pretty remarkable job so far, on such short notice on all fronts IMO.

I wish them well and look forward to the future.

Now is the time to get the branding done right and set yourself apart.

[choke]

Moving along, opinions about the models?Once I saw PF30 BB I knew they weren't for me.

[pbarry]

The bikes look great, tho I can't read the brand/logo on my tablet..

How does the new Co. come up with three contemporary products in less than two months, when B.W., (presumably), had to arm wrestle B.S. for 7 months to get the Pronto on the production line? Rhetorical question. It was time for a change.

[old fat man]

I don't get how you come up with a whole new brand, image, models, etc. but don't have pricing? Even if they are affordable, that's off putting, to know they are not willing to stamp a price on them from the start.

[roguedog]

whomever said "meh," i'm with you.

not nearly as cool, slick or clean as the firefly presentation. firefly did it right. this seems too cludgy to me.

course as others have said, if pricing comes in.. i might be able took the other way, depending :p

[Jack Brunk]

this new start up company in the same sentence as Firefly is stupid and an insult to Firefly.

Gag me, not one of those frames even remotely looks like a Fly.

[dave thompson]

this new start up company in the same sentence as Firefly is stupid and an insult to Firefly.

Gag me, not one of those frames even remotely look like a Fly.

The bikes don't but their logo is very reminiscent.

[bloody sunday]

this new start up company in the same sentence as Firefly is stupid and an insult to Firefly.

Gag me, not one of those frames even remotely look like a Fly.

couple guys from serotta - sure, they're a new company, but with professionals with years of experience.

firefly is a relatively new company AFAIK - but they have some guys with boat loads of experience. IMO they should be mentioned in the same sentence.

[Jack Brunk]

couple guys from serotta - sure, they're a new company, but with professionals with years of experience.

firefly is a relatively new company AFAIK - but they have some guys with boat loads of experience. IMO they should be mentioned in the same sentence.

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JB

[gasman]

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JB

I've never seen Jack pissed off-so he is on to something worth listening to.

[sjbraun]

Fugly. The graphics are confused, frame proportions don't exactly proclaim elegance, and the head badge seems derivative.

If I was in the market for ti, I'd head to Firefly. Their bikes hit all the marks these new SF bikes miss.

[charliedid]

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JB

Oh please...

"The Saratoga Frameworks team is led by two Serotta veterans, Patrick O’Farrell and Scott Hock. As director of operations, O’Farrell oversees all production and manages the staff. He brings 23 years of Serotta experience, including working in every production department. As director of product design, Hock leads the company’s custom frame and product development efforts. Hock is an accomplished racer who worked at Serotta for 8 years in production and frame design roles.

They are joined by a group of craftsmen with an average of 12 years’ experience building Serottas."

I doubt the boys at Firefly would be offended.

[bicycletricycle]

Those frames looked really nice in person, the matte red and ti looked especially good. They look to be what lots of people want , big head tubes , big bottom bracket shells , disc brakes. I do not understand what the company is trying to b yet but if these r stock geo bikes then maybe they are kind of a lynskey competitor, if the pricing is in that range then I think they could have a chance, the looked better than any lynskey I have ever seen.

The off the shelf look of the head tubes and dropouts is a bit of bummer , the steel one has a tapered head tube to match the steerer tube which looks a lot better than the beer can huge head tubes of recent popularity.

[Scooper]

They need to hire a website developer who isn't myopic.

[bloody sunday]

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JB

well, I did say as far as I know. thanks for the information I guess. I didn't realize you were boyfriend and girlfriend with the guys over at firefly

[bloody sunday]

Oh please...

"The Saratoga Frameworks team is led by two Serotta veterans, Patrick O’Farrell and Scott Hock. As director of operations, O’Farrell oversees all production and manages the staff. He brings 23 years of Serotta experience, including working in every production department. As director of product design, Hock leads the company’s custom frame and product development efforts. Hock is an accomplished racer who worked at Serotta for 8 years in production and frame design roles.

They are joined by a group of craftsmen with an average of 12 years’ experience building Serottas."

I doubt the boys at Firefly would be offended.

that's exactly what I read. don't know why JB is so offended :confused:

[jpw]

this new start up company in the same sentence as Firefly is stupid and an insult to Firefly.

Gag me, not one of those frames even remotely looks like a Fly.

i don't think anyone has suggested the frames look like FFs. someONE made mention of the logo design having, in his eye, a similarity to the FF logo. that's it. thread JACKing.

[jpw]

oh please...

"the saratoga frameworks team is led by two serotta veterans, patrick o’farrell and scott hock. As director of operations, o’farrell oversees all production and manages the staff. He brings 23 years of serotta experience, including working in every production department. As director of product design, hock leads the company’s custom frame and product development efforts. Hock is an accomplished racer who worked at serotta for 8 years in production and frame design roles.

They are joined by a group of craftsmen with an average of 12 years’ experience building serottas."

i doubt the boys at firefly would be offended.

+1

[happycampyer]

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JBJack,

I think years from now (if not already) when one looks back at turns of events that have been inadvertent "gifts" to this small corner of the cycling community that we inhabit, one of the greatest may be Gary Smith's decision to relocate Independent Fabrication to New Hampshire. That move unleashed one of the singular talents in the handbuilt bicycle world. What Tyler and company have created at Firefly in such a short time frame is incredible, but as you note, it was built on the experience gained building thousands of frames while at IF.

Serotta, too, has created several "spin-offs" that are pretty spectacular in their own right: Dave Kirk, Dave Wages and Kelly Bedford. That is a testament to the incubator of talent that Serotta was. But even with those departures, and with the company's grotesque self-immolation capped by Ben's departure this summer, there is still an immense amount of talent up in Saratoga Springs. If you doubt that, call Tyler and ask him what he thinks of Frank Cenchitz's talent as a welder. Like Tyler, Frank has welded tens of thousands of frames. And Patrick has been managing the operations for 23 years. And don't forget that these folks have the machinery (swaging, etc.) and the know-how to run it, that none of the others have.

So, not to take away from Tyler's and Kevin's talents, but your comments strike me as more than just a bit unfair.

[BumbleBeeDave]

The bikes look great, tho I can't read the brand/logo on my tablet..

How does the new Co. come up with three contemporary products in less than two months, when B.W., (presumably), had to arm wrestle B.S. for 7 months to get the Pronto on the production line? Rhetorical question. It was time for a change.

. . . represented some departures and updating for Serotta as far as "innovations" like BB30, etc. Whatever modern touches are on these SF bikes were already dialed in on the Pronto and Fondo. Much of the development work for the Ti cross may have already been done before Ben and Bill left. We just don't know.

Other than that, I see nothing here that hadn't been done thousands of times in the past by the talented craftsmen at SF when it was Serotta. Very high quality Ti frames. As for the steel frame model, we don't even know it's being done in their factory. There could easily be (and there ARE) former employees in the Saratoga area who could do the steel for them.

As for the branding . . . that can be done very quickly with enough money thrown at a marketing firm or freelancer. There's plenty in the Saratoga area and elsewhere.

These are nice looking bikes and I'm sure impeccable quality. But the presentation leaves me saying "Meh." The overall presentation especially leaves me asking who their intended market is. If it's customers who would also be shopping around to Firefly, Indy Fab, Moots, or Eriksen, then they need to raise their game. That logo is indeed derivative of Firefly--that's who I thought of immediately when I saw it. More due diligence was needed in advance.

I have no doubt the craftsmanship is outstanding. But the presentation is only competent, not inspiring. And in this market segment (assuming that's the segment they are aiming for) there's plenty of other brands and web sites that come across as way more passionate and inspired.

BBD

[sales guy]

I don't get how you come up with a whole new brand, image, models, etc. but don't have pricing? Even if they are affordable, that's off putting, to know they are not willing to stamp a price on them from the start.


The reason could be they are trying to figure out how many real dealers they have or if they are going to sell direct to the public. That will change a ton in the manufacturing costs, paint or finish costs, wholesale and retail costs.

[oldpotatoe]

Sorry, not to get a ···· match but please do your homework. The guys at Firefly have welded and designed 10,000++ frames plus. Please people, please do some homework before you come to class. Not quite sure why this pisses me off but it does.

JB

But in other places, not Firefly. Just like the people at Saratoga, when they were making Serotta.

[Nooch]

yeah, i'm sorry... i don't see the firefly logo in the sf logo...

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Headbadge-drawing-630px.jpg

vs

http://saratogaframeworks.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/race-ti-ht-full-frame.jpg?w=580

I just don't see what the fuss is about. they're two ti frames... alright, sweet. my pronto is brushed ti with white graphics, oh heaven's, serotta was trying to be moots! (pretty sure my bike doesn't look like a moots...)

[laupsi]

me neither. as I've already stated, looks more like an "Enve" w/the block lettering but my mind wasn't drawn to FF. perhaps this is because I'm more familiar w/Enve and not FF; perhaps the marketing imprint is affecting all of us, whether we choose to admit it is another story?

[Fixed]

I am certain they make a wonderful bike
I would like a ti bike in the future ..someday
Probably Moots though :)
Cheers

[Jack Brunk]

Jack,

I think years from now (if not already) when one looks back at turns of events that have been inadvertent "gifts" to this small corner of the cycling community that we inhabit, one of the greatest may be Gary Smith's decision to relocate Independent Fabrication to New Hampshire. That move unleashed one of the singular talents in the handbuilt bicycle world. What Tyler and company have created at Firefly in such a short time frame is incredible, but as you note, it was built on the experience gained building thousands of frames while at IF.

Serotta, too, has created several "spin-offs" that are pretty spectacular in their own right: Dave Kirk, Dave Wages and Kelly Bedford. That is a testament to the incubator of talent that Serotta was. But even with those departures, and with the company's grotesque self-immolation capped by Ben's departure this summer, there is still an immense amount of talent up in Saratoga Springs. If you doubt that, call Tyler and ask him what he thinks of Frank Cenchitz's talent as a welder. Like Tyler, Frank has welded tens of thousands of frames. And Patrick has been managing the operations for 23 years. And don't forget that these folks have the machinery (swaging, etc.) and the know-how to run it, that none of the others have.

So, not to take away from Tyler's and Kevin's talents, but your comments strike me as more than just a bit unfair.
All is good and your points are well taken.

[bloody sunday]

yeah, i'm sorry... i don't see the firefly logo in the sf logo...

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Headbadge-drawing-630px.jpg

vs

http://saratogaframeworks.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/race-ti-ht-full-frame.jpg?w=580

I just don't see what the fuss is about. they're two ti frames... alright, sweet. my pronto is brushed ti with white graphics, oh heaven's, serotta was trying to be moots! (pretty sure my bike doesn't look like a moots...)
It might be this aspect of the FF logo that everyone is referencing:
http://i.imgur.com/NAy71ym.png
http://i.imgur.com/2cDGCYN.png

[bicycletricycle]

this is kinda silly, still almost no comments about actual bikes.

[bloody sunday]

I don't know what else you could say about them besides, "looks cool" or "looks similar to xyz" because no one has ridden any, and we don't have prices.

[FlashUNC]

yeah, i'm sorry... i don't see the firefly logo in the sf logo...

http://fireflybicycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Headbadge-drawing-630px.jpg

vs

http://saratogaframeworks.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/race-ti-ht-full-frame.jpg?w=580

I just don't see what the fuss is about. they're two ti frames... alright, sweet. my pronto is brushed ti with white graphics, oh heaven's, serotta was trying to be moots! (pretty sure my bike doesn't look like a moots...)


From a brand perspective, they're kissing cousins. Again, you've got a Northeastern boutique builder putting together mostly TI bikes, using muted color palettes with ultra-modern logos and typography.

Part of that is the aesthetic of the moment in the industry, but cheese and crackers. Given they're producing something that looks similar to what the competitition is putting out -- and trying to stand up a brand on its own from scratch -- anything in the ballpark of similar is one of the worst things they could have done imo.

It's also a golden opportunity. They're starting essentially from scratch with the brand. They could have done anything, and the choice they made is the follow the herd with the design aesthetic of the moment?
This isn't something to be flippant about either. Look at e-Richie and his, what, year-long redesign of his race team's color scheme? It may seem like a small thing, but for a lot of people, that bike sitting at a coffee shop or at the local ride start, or the finish line of a local race is likely going to be their first connection with the brand. If it looks like everything else -- or someone confuses your bike for a Firefly, or a Baum, or whoever -- then the marketing and design hasn't done it's job.

[bfd]

http://saratogaframeworks.com/2013/10/04/introducing-our-first-new-models-race-ti-cx-ti-cx-steel-saratoga-frameworks/

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what is the pricing? Is the Legend or its new equivalent still like $6000 or $6500 for a frame?

Serotta priced themselves out of the market. What about this new entity, SF? If the price is in line with comparable frames from other builders, then it should sell. Good Luck!

[yngpunk]

this is kinda silly, still almost no comments about actual bikes.

But, but, who cares about functionality when you can argue about branding and image ala Rapha and Assos, because we all know it's got to look good lest it be called faster backwards or a douche. :rolleyes:

Cheers

[1centaur]

I wonder how many frames Richard Sachs has welded in his career.

And BTW, I thought the comment about not seeing resemblance to the Firefly logo was sarcasm, since they are so obviously similar, but maybe I was wrong.

[fiamme red]

I wonder how many frames Richard Sachs has welded in his career.Techincally, zero. He brazes them. :)

[wooly]

This is not specifically directed at Saratoga Frameworks, and maybe I am too "old school" but the head tube and fork combos on the CX frames just don't do it for me. The 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 head tubes and forks make the frames look unbalanced to me. The lines on the road frame look better to me.

From a functionality standpoint, I've never ridden a bike with this set up and cannot speak to the improvements in cornering but its hard to believe that the improvement is that much better than a well designed bike with a 1 inch or 1 1/8th inch head tube.

"Old School" Wooly

[Liberace]

The bikes look great. I just wonder what the prices are going to be.

[false_Aest]

1983: GoBots created/released
1984: Transformers created/released

1984: Voltron
1993: Might Morphin Power Rangers

Yeah, like that.

Also:

http://neweconomycampaigns.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/blue-ranger-on-bike-640x853.jpg

[Nooch]

From a brand perspective, they're kissing cousins. Again, you've got a Northeastern boutique builder putting together mostly TI bikes, using muted color palettes with ultra-modern logos and typography.

Part of that is the aesthetic of the moment in the industry, but cheese and crackers. Given they're producing something that looks similar to what the competitition is putting out -- and trying to stand up a brand on its own from scratch -- anything in the ballpark of similar is one of the worst things they could have done imo.

It's also a golden opportunity. They're starting essentially from scratch with the brand. They could have done anything, and the choice they made is the follow the herd with the design aesthetic of the moment?
This isn't something to be flippant about either. Look at e-Richie and his, what, year-long redesign of his race team's color scheme? It may seem like a small thing, but for a lot of people, that bike sitting at a coffee shop or at the local ride start, or the finish line of a local race is likely going to be their first connection with the brand. If it looks like everything else -- or someone confuses your bike for a Firefly, or a Baum, or whoever -- then the marketing and design hasn't done it's job.

fair enough.

but i'd draw the similarity (head badge wise, at least) closer to Pegoretti than Firefly..

I get that the curved 'F' font kind of resembles, now that that's been posted up.

I think for what the company has put together in a very short time, is good. It has appeal. It's taking what they learned with the Pronto/Fondo and moving forward with it, evolving it, etc.

Pricing is going to be the decision driver, for sure. I think they're getting there -- give em time.

and forgive me if it seems like i'm beating the drum -- i am. I believe in Scott and the crew up there, because I've ridden the pronto, and it's a great bike -- maybe happycampyer can chime in on his experiences with it, as well. If these new bikes perform anything like that, then all they have to do is get them under some people at affordable prices and they'll be right back in the game.

[yngpunk]

1983: GoBots created/released
1984: Transformers created/released

1984: Voltron
1993: Might Morphin Power Rangers

Yeah, like that.

Also:



Kids these days...in the beginning, there was Ultraman:

[laupsi]

no, in the beginning there was Hayata! :)

[yngpunk]

:banana:




no, in the beginning there was Hayata! :)

[William]

1983: GoBots created/released
1984: Transformers created/released

1984: Voltron
1993: Might Morphin Power Rangers

Yeah, like that.

Also:



Don't forget about the Power Falcons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSrP7ub6VA)!:)






William

[Tin Turtle]

It will be interesting to see how they price them. For me the downtube graphics are very hard to read.

[avalonracing]

no, in the beginning there was Hayata! :)

Nice call!

That out of the way... It isn't like Ben was still building the frames himself, nor was he screaming around criterium courses at 35mph. The bikes at SF are being built by the same people who built the Serottas that everyone was so in love with a few long months ago. Let's see how this goes and ride some of these bikes before passing judgement on them.

[Kirk Pacenti]

It's all been done. In fact these graphics were done by the same firm. Fwiw, I like the FF ones better...

[FlashUNC]

fair enough.

but i'd draw the similarity (head badge wise, at least) closer to Pegoretti than Firefly..

I get that the curved 'F' font kind of resembles, now that that's been posted up.

I think for what the company has put together in a very short time, is good. It has appeal. It's taking what they learned with the Pronto/Fondo and moving forward with it, evolving it, etc.

Pricing is going to be the decision driver, for sure. I think they're getting there -- give em time.

and forgive me if it seems like i'm beating the drum -- i am. I believe in Scott and the crew up there, because I've ridden the pronto, and it's a great bike -- maybe happycampyer can chime in on his experiences with it, as well. If these new bikes perform anything like that, then all they have to do is get them under some people at affordable prices and they'll be right back in the game.


I'm a big fan of the stuff they turn out too. I just wish the mkting and branding did a better job telling that story. It's a hurdle that may keep some folks from becoming customers.

[Kirk Pacenti]

I'm a big fan of the stuff they turn out too. I just wish the mkting and branding did a better job telling that story. It's a hurdle that may keep some folks from becoming customers.

I agree, but making bikes is the easy part... really.

Marketing your world-class product against another brands world-class product in a compelling way is difficult (imo). Sometimes I think (making certain assumptions about product quality at this level) the branding / marketing is actually more important than the product itself.