OT:Helping senile parents

[dekindy]

I have become aware that my 80-year old father is sending money orders in response to mail scams. I was aware that some of this might be going on but just became aware of the scale late this afternoon. A lady at the bank where my father has an IRA took it upon herself to learn who my father's children were, which consists of me since I am an only child, and make contact. She has told all her tellers not to sell my father money orders or discourage him as possible and after a long conversation convinced him to walk across the street(small town) and talk to the police.

After speaking with the lady at the bank I immediately called the city police department and the local postmaster. Apparently both have had numerous conversations with my father trying to convince him that he should not respond to these solicitations because they are scams. The postmaster even called my mother. It is effective for a short while but he returns and they are able to persuade him regarding most of the offers but he still insists on some of them.

The postmaster says that now that I have contacted her she can put "in dispute" stickers on all the mail and will start a file for my father and retain the money orders instead of mailing them so they can be redeemed by him for cash. The police officer that I spoke with was aware of what is going on with my dad and agreed to immediately go to their home and in the presence of my mother go over with my father again that these are scams.

Being a former cpa/pfs, cfp, and parent of a handicapped child that reached the age of majority recently I am aware of all the formal procedures in regard to guardianship. However I think it will currently be impossible to have my parents declared incompetent and would probably severe an already strained relationship with my mother.

My next step will be to contact my financial institution and determine what they can do to verify my identity for the other two local banks and try to learn via telephone if they will at least tell me if my father has been purchasing money orders there.

My question is, are there any informal approaches or downright devious strategies for keeping my father from sending money to scam artists? A lot of my classmates from high school still live in my hometown so I might be able to get their help or suggest that the local banks offer them a "free" bill paying and money management service that I would pay for.

My uncle thinks he has even met somebody locally at the Walmart so lord knows what could happen. I don't know when this occurred nor even want to think about what he has told them or what could happen. Really at a loss here as even when I was on the best of terms with my parents they would never discuss their finances or when the subject came up take any advice from me.

[tsarpepe]

Man, this is one of the most unexpected, unsettling, and moving posts I have ever come across in the classifieds. If some ideas come to mind, I will certainly send them along. For now, accept my moral support and admiration for sharing your story with us.

[avalonracing]

I don't have any advice but I do want to say that I'm sorry that this is going on.
Good luck with this.

[yngpunk]

Are these solicitations via email? If so, can you access the email account so you can identify and delete such emails when they arrive? Another option is to set up the email account so only emails from those on an approved list are allowed to reach the inbox.

If these solicitations are arriving via the USPS, I suspect this is then mail fraud, and would be of interest the the Postmaster as a start

I bit of prevention may go a long way

Good luck

[dekindy]

My father was never able to navigate the internet so no online presence thank goodness. All offers via US Mail and local postmaster has forwarded many to the postal inspector.

Realized immediately after posting that I was in the wrong forum.

[Vonruden]

feel sorry for you and your dad, but why post in the classifieds???

[CaliFly]

I have a friend whose dad did the same to the tune of almost $10K. She had the mail redirected to a post office box.

[thegunner]

feel sorry for you and your dad, but why post in the classifieds???

i suspect just a mistake, sorry to hear this - no words of advice, but best of luck hopefully finding a solution

[bikingshearer]

Talk to a lawyer about a conservatorship of the estate (at least that is what it is called in California). Do it ASAP. This may strain or even ruin a relationship with one or both parents, but better that than their financial resources be wiped out by the unscrupulous. Whatever assets they have, they are going to need them in whatever time they have left, more so than ever before.

Some lawyers who do estate-related litigation do conservatorships, too, or they may be able to refer you to someone who does. Also, every county bar association in California has a lawyer referral panel that could give you several names. I bet there is something like that in your parents' state, too, either done by county bar associations or the sate bar association.

Unless you already have a good rerlationship with their estate planning lawyer and the lawyer is already aware of the situation, do not ask them. They are likely to view you as an interloper, or at least react with suspicion.

It won't be cheap, and if your parents contest the conservatorship it won't be easy, and the court will app0oint another lawyer to represent them. The court will also appoint a court investigator to check out the situation. But from what you describe, there is a good chance you can get obtain a temporary conservatorship fairly quickly until the court can make a decision about a permanent arrangement. This would allow you (or whoever is named conservator) to take immediate control of the finances -- your father would have no authority to access his finances while the conservatorship is in place (with the possible exception of an amount set aside as more or less an allowance).

All of this is coming from a lawyer who practices 2,000 miles away, and your state's laws are almost certainly not the same as California's. But I am reasonably sure that there is some sort of mechanism similar to what I have described where your parents are. But please, get started now. It is not going to get better, and it could get very much worse very quickly.

Good luck.

[dancinkozmo]

Man, this is one of the most unexpected, unsettling, and moving posts I have ever come across in the classifieds. If some ideas come to mind, I will certainly send them along. For now, accept my moral support and admiration for sharing your story with us.

+1 ...embarrassing, but thats all i can add right now

[thwart]

Unfortunately a relatively common issue for us older Forumites... dealing with elderly parents and the many issues that can come with the physical and mental disabilities of advancing age.

While I agree with stopgap measures, I would look at the legal options for seeking guardianship because things will likely just get worse with your father's dementia/senility. Sincerely hope this isn't the case, but sounds like this will have to occur without your father's (or mother's) agreement.

[Cat3roadracer]

BBD - put down the stout and move this thread to the General Discussion. This fellow is going through enough, he does not need to be heckled by the gallery.

[druptight]

It sounds to me like your mother is on your side here - in that she's aware there's an issue and is willing to take steps to address it. I noticed you mentioned it's an "already strained" relationship with her, but is there any way you can get her to take charge of their bank account so that your father can't access the funds without her approval? Just thinking that might be easier & less troublesome for her if she'll assist you as a stop gap for his access to the money. Maybe you can even get yourself as some sort of co-signer on the account?

Just a thought. Sounds like a terribly tough scenario.

[akelman]

We've been dealing with a similar -- though less extreme -- situation. All I can say is that I'm very sorry and hope things improve for you and yours.

[sean]

How close (in proximity) are you to your Dad?

USPS has a mail forwarding service, it costs $17 a week, which adds up, but depending on what the scams are costing, might be worth it.

Mail sent to an address is auto-forwarded to another address. You, or someone you trust, could go through it and then "re-deliver" it to your dad.

https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm

You could also do a hold mail for pickup, but I'm not sure how long you can do that for.

[Cat3roadracer]

I smile every time I see a Smiths/Morrissey footer. Thanks.

[Louis]

Switching everything to a PO Box (i.e. tell the USPS to not deliver anything to the home, but to the PO Box instead - my sister has this done in ME) and having Mom filter it may be simpler.

[dekindy]

To answer some of the questions.

I am 200 miles away so it is not practical for me to be there regularly.

My Mother has osteoarthritis and because of the pain and difficulty moving, I think she uses a walker all the time now to get around, and almost totally dependent upon my Dad to maintain the home so she probably cannot do the post office box option. They also resist all forms of assistance regarding meals, housework, etc. that they undoubtedly qualify for due to my mother's lack of mobility. I think she gets out of the house rarely anymore and does not feel like anyone visiting.

Until I contact the other banks in town on Monday and try to determine if my father is purchasing money orders from other accounts, it appears the distributions for the money orders are coming solely from my father's ira account and there are no other accounts at that bank.

I am really at a loss. I really have to minimize contact with my mother to preserve my mental health and they are totally resistant to any type of outside help. On top of all this, my father has had both knee joints replaced and one of them needs replacing again and part of my mother's lack of mobility is that she needs a knee joint replaced also.

This is one of those times I wish I were not an only child. Maybe another child could get along with them better than I have been able to.

[robin3mj]

I opened this topic thinking it'd be more along the lines of the need to address their physical safety.
Can't say I can add anything better than was said above but it also sounds like there may also be a need in the future to address their care requirements.

I'm involved in the senior housing business (on a fairly impartial basis) so if that is ever a need or something you'd want some feedback on, please feel free to drop me a message.

[plattyjo]

My brother and I were in a similar situation with our parents -- dad losing memory due to strokes / early onset dementia, difficult mom -- but my dad granted my brother power of attorney when he accepted what was happening to him. There was plenty of drama that followed -- due to my aforementioned issues with my mom -- but it's finally settled down after several years.

Hopefully you can obtain similar legal authority and it sounds like you have kind members of the community looking out for your dad. Don't be afraid to ask for help; you'd be surprised who's willing to pitch in, especially with you not being nearby. There may be local groups in your town or in the surrounding area that can offer counseling, too. And try to find out who your mom will listen to, if not you. With me, I had to appeal to her sisters and church pastor to help smooth things over. That will help avoid them becoming shut-ins and getting the help they need.

Good luck, hang in there and take care of yourself, too. <sending hugs>

[carpediemracing]

Ugh. Tough situation.

My mom passed away 10 (already!) years ago last August. My dad is virtually incapable of communicating - talking is definitely out, writing is extremely limited and difficult. To keep things straight, especially financial things, my brother has to control my dad's finances.

While my mom was alive my brother (and his wife) moved into the house to be there all the time. My parents moved back to our childhood home only because at that point my mom was terminal and had only a few months. About a week after my mom passed my brother's wife had the first grandchild of the family, and the house got transformed into a wonderful joyful place. To help my dad my brother stayed.

Well now it's been 10+ years. My brother/his-wife have 3 kids now, in our childhood home. My dad cannot sleep anywhere except at home else he gets super agitated. He really can't do much for himself. Before he lost all ability to communicate we had him sign an unusually broad power of attorney. The lawyer who wrote it up, and everyone we show it to, said that the POA was very unusual. Basically all four kids have full access to everything (medical, financial), independently.

I looked after my dad for just a few days over the summer and it was tough. He came to me with his wallet, gesturing about his credit card (my brother gave it to me while I was there). I gave him the card because, you know, he's my dad. My brother/family arrived home shortly thereafter and the card was already missing. My brother almost canceled it but luckily found it (and my brother was pretty upset - it was like handing a loaded gun to a clueless 5 year old, you just don't do it). I didn't realize just how limited my dad was until that moment.

So POA if you can. I don't know what else to suggest. Move closer? Visit a lot? One of my friends takes care of her two elderly parents every weekend (40 miles away - she goes there Fri-Sun morning and then goes to work Sunday midday). I asked her how she feels about it. She told me that there are times for things and this is the time for that.

[tuxbailey]

Ugh. Tough situation.

My mom passed away 10 (already!) years ago last August. My dad is virtually incapable of communicating - talking is definitely out, writing is extremely limited and difficult. To keep things straight, especially financial things, my brother has to control my dad's finances.

While my mom was alive my brother (and his wife) moved into the house to be there all the time. My parents moved back to our childhood home only because at that point my mom was terminal and had only a few months. About a week after my mom passed my brother's wife had the first grandchild of the family, and the house got transformed into a wonderful joyful place. To help my dad my brother stayed.

Well now it's been 10+ years. My brother/his-wife have 3 kids now, in our childhood home. My dad cannot sleep anywhere except at home else he gets super agitated. He really can't do much for himself. Before he lost all ability to communicate we had him sign an unusually broad power of attorney. The lawyer who wrote it up, and everyone we show it to, said that the POA was very unusual. Basically all four kids have full access to everything (medical, financial), independently.

I looked after my dad for just a few days over the summer and it was tough. He came to me with his wallet, gesturing about his credit card (my brother gave it to me while I was there). I gave him the card because, you know, he's my dad. My brother/family arrived home shortly thereafter and the card was already missing. My brother almost canceled it but luckily found it (and my brother was pretty upset - it was like handing a loaded gun to a clueless 5 year old, you just don't do it). I didn't realize just how limited my dad was until that moment.

So POA if you can. I don't know what else to suggest. Move closer? Visit a lot? One of my friends takes care of her two elderly parents every weekend (40 miles away - she goes there Fri-Sun morning and then goes to work Sunday midday). I asked her how she feels about it. She told me that there are times for things and this is the time for that.

You got a great brother and his family as well.

To OP: I wish you good luck and this is very, very difficult situation.

[dekindy]

Thanks so much. I woke up to thunder and lightning so got up at this early hour and read all the heartfelt replies.

I have a first cousin that lives in my home town and might be able to help. She is on disability and had a rough time but have become Facebook friends with her and she seems to be doing well.

Herein lies the problem and is typical of my parents. When my cousin was first disabled and having a rough time, they helped my cousin move into an apartment building directly behind their house. Not too long after that she got so ill that she went to her sister in North Carolina and stayed 2 months until she was well enough to return to my hometown and live on her own. Because my cousins did not tell my parents what was going on they are now on my mother's bad side. My cousin from North Carolina visits my hometown rarely but when she does has never failed to visit them. On her most recent visit she called first to see when she could stop by and as my mother has been doing with us, told her she did not want any company. My cousin told me about this and was very concerned and called me about it. The next time I talked on the telephone with my father, I asked him about it. He was very bitter and appears to be getting as bad as my mother about this type of thing which is out of character for him. I and my cousin in North Carolina have a long relationship but my cousin in my hometown, because she is seven years older than me and 10 for my cousin, not so much. I might reach out to her this weekend and see if she can help. She was an elected county official for a very long time and should be known by folks so she might be able to navigate this without resorting to a POA.

[carpediemracing]

You got a great brother and his family as well.

Thanks. I think the most credit should go to my brother's wife, who didn't really expect her life to be the one it is now as far as taking care of my dad during the days. The kids are interesting. "Oh, he doesn't talk" when their friends ask why my dad doesn't say anything. It's just part of their life.

We're fortunate that there are no unresolved issues/conflicts between the four siblings (me, my brother, my other brother, my sister). I don't know why that's the case but it just is; I think it has to do with the way we were raised, it just wasn't something that was done.

I'm an old father of a young kid - 46 now, with a 1 1/2 year old (wife is 34 so that part is okay). I'll be 49? when he goes to kindergarten, 62? when he (hopefully) finishes high school, 67 when/if he finishes college. My dad was only 70 when his functionality started to deteriorate. By 75 he was pretty much incapable of living on his own. When I'm 75 my son will barely be starting his life. I hope that I am not a burden to him at such a precious time in his life.

[carpediemracing]

Thanks so much. I woke up to thunder and lightning so got up at this early hour and read all the heartfelt replies.

she might be able to navigate this without resorting to a POA.

I think the POA is a huge thing. I'm sure you can customize such things (we didn't in our case) so that your father feels like he can still do stuff, but, for example, you control or co-sign expenditures above xyz amount. This way he can pay a bill but he can't send $5k to a Nigerian princess.

For example we tried to consolidate a slew of my dad's accounts. They needed a verbal okay on the phone but my dad couldn't talk. Therefore he needed to write something. He couldn't so we had a lawyer write up something and then (not sure of the details) the letter got to the account company. What should have taken 5 minutes ("This is my son, I am asking him to make some changes for me") took 5 weeks or something like that.

Just because you know someone or are an official it doesn't mean that a bank or large financial institution will free funds or even move them across accounts. Such moves require legal permission.

Medical is absolutely critical also. My dad simply could not accept that my mom was not going to make it, not until almost the very end (maybe 2 months). My mom knew this and therefore had me be her living will executor (or whatever it's called). She didn't want her life to be artificially extended so made it clear that she wanted only pain treatment, nothing else. It was a huge decision for her to accept her mortality, and she realized that my dad couldn't make that decision at that time. Those discussions are major and really help make things clearer to those providing services to your dad/mom/etc.

[dekindy]

Very good news. I called the other two banks in my hometown and confirmed that my parents only have their accounts at one bank. They also told me that there was no activity on the accounts that would indicate he was purchasing money orders and that they would advise on the tellers to be alert if my father tries to do anything like this.

I feel better but in the same dilemma as before. I am sure any suggestions I make for them to make changes will be to no avail. So I am tempted to let it go. I really got concerned about my asking the police to go to the house. If the postmaster notifying my mother caused her to be very upset and she gets upset again I have no idea what the consequences might be. Tempted to let my father's bank and the postmaster discourage the activity as much as possible and tread very lightly until a good opportunity presents itself to discuss what they need to do. I know safeguarding the money is important but that my getting involved at this time might make things worse.

I resigned myself a long time ago that you cannot help folks who either don't want help or can't help themselves. It is necessary for my well-being and taking care of my handicapped son has to be my prime concern and we are going through some stuff right now that I feel demands 100% of my time and presence.

[SpokeValley]

You're not alone in this. I had to take over my Dad and his wife's (not my mother and you can get the tell how much affection I have for her) finances after I found out that they had given her younger son POA and he was robbing them blind. I only found out because the assisted living facility called me wanting to know if I knew that they owed over $20k in back rent and were about to be evicted. It's a really long story, but I convinced them to give me POA and I eventually straightened it out. Dad was 83 at the time and had progressing dementia. Their finances were a train wreck.

I reported Rip Off to the state attorney general elder abuse folks. That got his attention :cool:

And, i did it long distance...they were in TX, I'm in WA. Our age of technology makes things pretty easy once I got it set up. I did need to make a couple of trips down, to meet with relevant people though.

What I learned that May be helpful for you (SO many great suggestions on this thread already):

-remember that this is a chronic problem in our society and YOURE NOT ALONE. contact the local "senior source" or whatever they call it there and tell them what's happening. It's usually free and they are typically familiar with the legal aspects. You'll get some valuable advice and referrals to paid experts.

-the best way to make sure they don't get ripped off is to get POA and totally control the cash flow. Then give them a budget and tell them they have $xxx to spend on what ever they want. If you can convince them that they've earned a break from having to worry about these things, you'll be fine. Much easier said than done...I did a quick cash flow spreadsheet to show them what was going on. Sometimes that can stir them to let you handle the money but you'll have to develop your own strategy. I set up a second bank account (they were on the account as well, nothing secret, but not on their radar so that they wouldn't dip into it) at their same bank and directed all income into that account (direct deposit) and used the bank's online bill pay. I put their allowance into their regular account so that was normal to them.

-a conservatorship can probably be done if they just won't give you POA. Grab your wallet, though. I was headed in this direction because Rip Off Son tried to convince his mom that he needed POA back because I was mismanaging their money, sorry SOB. I cut off his income source and he was pissed so I was looking at having me set up as conservator. You'll likely need a doctors diagnosis of dementia or other solid reason, plus you'll need to be bonded...it's complex and very time consuming, and damned expensive. Attorney alone was almost $5k. I didn't proceed because it was able to have a serious discussion with the folks along the lines of "...so, if Rip Off manages your money again and goes back to his old tricks, where do you think you'll live when you're evicted?" I pulled them back to reality.

-Note here on the distance challenge: I decided early on that I needed "boots on the ground" to keep an eye on the folks, so I hired a "daily money manager" not to handle the money because I was doing that, but to go by and pick up any stray mail that wasn't diverted and to just see what was going on. She actually found the draft POA that Rip Off had prepared and alerted me. She was recommended to me by the Dallas Senior Source. Charged $25/hour...cheap and totally dedicated and trustworthy.

Anyhow, hang in there and be persistent.

[William]

I have nothing to add other than to say, I hope you are able to work this out for the best.

There is lots of great information here and it's making me consider the future for my own parents who are getting up in age.







William

[josephr]

Seriously.

Short-term -- restrict his access to funds -- take the family to the bank and require dual signatures on all checking withdrawals, take away the ATM card, and he probably should not be driving if his judgement is impaired in other ways as well. Watch all communication inputs. How the heck does he know who to send Money Orders too, etc??? Someone has to be soliciting.

Call an attorney that specializes in elder law and get your family some legal help and have someone in your family assigned his financial custodian, or something....No offense, but he's 80 years old...its time he not make certain decisions anymore.

whatever you do, don't just sit there and do nothing. We went through this with my dad and it was the worst because my mom didn't want to "make him mad" or "cause a rift in the family."....it only got worse the older he got and the more the dimentia took over.

best wishes.
Joe

[54ny77]

been there seen that with grandparents. scumbag annuity salespeople, "charity" solicitations, you name it. if we hadn't intervened, retirement savings could've easily gotten wiped out. senility and alzheimer's is such a cruel affliction.

[Fixed]

God bless you and your family
you never know how much they mean to you till they are gone
Cheers

[Tin Turtle]

My parents both live in an apartment behind the main farm we built when I was very young. My brother and his family live in the main house. Him and my sis-in-law take care of them, and I am eternally grateful for that. Luckily they are both ok at the moment, but I often read stories of others who are not in the same situation.

[zandrrr]

I resigned myself a long time ago that you cannot help folks who either don't want help or can't help themselves.

My father is dealing with this problem with his parents. They are in their 90s, both legally blind, she can't walk without a walker (but most of the time refuses to use one) and he insists they are staying in their house until the end. They steadfastly refuse all suggestions of formalized assistance (and money is not the reason for that, they have enough). The house is filthy and falling apart and every time I'm there - which is basically once a year at this point - I find that the oven is on and has been for who knows how long, or the thermostat is set to 88 degrees, etc.

My dad has basically given up. He lasted longer and tried harder than my mother and me but eventually he had to accept it too. You have my condolences.

[Seramount]

I'm elderly parent care mode as well...

things can go from fine, to manageable, to shaky, to complete catastrophe really quickly.

in the span of 10 weeks, my folks, who are 90, went from living on their own, to needing some help with errands, to both being hospitalized, to both going to nursing homes...

less than a week after she was admitted to the nursing home, my mom died in Feb which left my dad alone with the only relative (me) over 600 miles away.

the ordeal of arranging care for them and sorting out all the associated legal and financial issues was absolutely staggering. getting POA, arranging a funeral, attending probate hearing, selling house/contents/car, getting utilities and insurance cancelled, paying bills, etc etc was almost a full-time job for 6 months.

I've moved my dad to a NH in my neighborhood and visit him daily...we were never all that close before, but have found out we like each other as people now.

my only advice is to try and not wait until there's a crisis to get things in order...

[redir]

People who prey on the elderly are some of the lowest form of scum. Good luck :(

[malcolm]

They only thing I'll add is sometimes with dementia people can become quite paranoid and mean. I would isolate my actions from my mom as much as possible so your dad doesn't hold her responsible. I guess what I'm saying is I would go ahead and be the bad guy and involve mom as little as possible. Also for what good it does I'm very sorry to hear you are in this situation and feel for you and your family.

[dekindy]

My Father called me and told me the police had stopped by the house. I told them that I asked them to and that people from my hometown had inquired and found me because they were concerned. I related what they told me and that they were concerned and trying to protect him but did not feel that they were being effective. The phone was silent for awhile and then he said that he had quit sending money. However he was still unsure what to do. I told him to throw everything in the trash or take it to the postmaster. He admitted that he started doing this because he is stuck home with my Mother and was looking for something to do. He said he could not believe how much they had gotten him for and I let it go at that because what is done is done. I followed up with the Bank and Postmaster and told them that he seemed to understand but if he started purchasing money orders again to call me because then it would be obvious that I needed to take action. I hope this is the end of it.

After I explained my situation to the Banks they were willing to give me enough information over the telephone to satisfy my needs. I was surprised at this with today's confidentiality rules but they did not reveal any personal information or specifics but still addressed my concerns. My Father admitted that everyone was being nice to him and appreciated their concern so I don't think that he will make any changes with his accounts. His main bank also explained some difficulty he had with multiple subscriptions to Readers Digest and got them all refunded. This is something my Father had talked about but I was not able to follow it.

Grateful they live in a small town!

[josephr]

After I explained my situation to the Banks they were willing to give me enough information over the telephone to satisfy my needs. I was surprised at this with today's confidentiality rules but they did not reveal any personal information or specifics but still addressed my concerns.

Glad you've reached some sort of resolution to the situation, but the above is all the more reason why folks on this forum are advising you to take control of the situation before it gets worse. It will get worse and your headaches are comparatively small at this point --- remember when you had teenagers and new parents were whining about smelly diapers???

Seriously....in the eyes of the law, they're fully responsible adults who make their own decisions. You'll have to have their consent down on paper to talk to their doctors, bankers, lawyers, etc. Its a frustrating administrative nightmare.

Joe

[Ken Robb]

Based on some of the comments above I'd like to agree that whoever acts as the executor of an estate will be doing more work than anyone who hadn't been one could imagine. The law provides for compensation for this work in the form of executor fees and reimbursement for out of pocket expenses. While the executor might feel guilty accepting money from the estate for what he sees as a family duty I encourage the other beneficiaries to insist the fees be accepted. OTOH if the survivors can manipulate distributions from the estate so the person doing the work get more than the passive heirs that might save income taxes that would probably be due as the fees would be additional income to the executor.

Not only was I the executor for three relatives I was involved with many estate settlements in my 36 years as a real estate broker. I saw some that went very smoothly but even those required a fair bit of work by the executors. I also was involved in some real family feuds and developed a "sixth sense" that allowed me to turn down some listings where I could guess the situation was going to be nasty.

[plattyjo]

It sounds like you have a lot on your plate, Dekindy, with a disabled child and your parents; it's great you have a small-town community looking after your family. It sounds like your dad is really lonely and hopefully he can repair relations with your cousin(s) so he can have some companionship outside of your mom.

I wish you the best and hopefully, when you have more time in the future, you can assume power of attorney to make everyone's life a bit easier.

[dekindy]

My talk lasted about as long as the others; two weeks. My Father called me and told me that he had more mail. I told him they were all scams and to throw them away. He told me he would call me back if he found something interesting. I said no, you are not going to call me back, you are going to throw them in the trash.

The next day the postmaster telephoned to tell me that my Father had mailed 3 envelopes that were all scams and she was mailing them to me. My wife talked to her so now that I have received them I will follow up next week. I found them to be what I expected, obviously bogus. $20, $20, and $5 were the amounts. He is using cash now so that he does not have to involve the post office or bank for money orders. Not sure if he mailed them by placing in a mail collection box or if he took them to the post office. He used stamps so the post office might have intercepted them while sorting. Can't imagine anyone at the post office having time to screen for something like this but GOD BLESS THEM!

[Tin Turtle]

Can't imagine anyone at the post office having time to screen for something like this but GOD BLESS THEM!

Amen dude... God knows there are a lot of s^*^&y people in this world, but some excellent human beings as well.

[Ozz]

How close (in proximity) are you to your Dad?

USPS has a mail forwarding service, it costs $17 a week, which adds up, but depending on what the scams are costing, might be worth it.

Mail sent to an address is auto-forwarded to another address. You, or someone you trust, could go through it and then "re-deliver" it to your dad.

https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm

You could also do a hold mail for pickup, but I'm not sure how long you can do that for.

If you are close by, maybe you can get a locking mailbox and not give your dad the key...you will need to stop by a couple times per week to help him sort his mail, but at least you can control his access to it.

[1centaur]

Are these scams getting to your Dad through the mail? With the post office on your side I'd think there's something you can do to stop your Dad seeing them at all, such as passing straight through to him everything that is obviously fine and diverting to a PO Box everything that's questionable so you can scan it. If they don't want on be on the hook for judgment, then change his address to a P.O. Box and handle his change of address forms yourself so only critical mailers get the notice. Depending on finances, there may also be a mail forwarding/screening business such as the stars use for their fan mail that could weed out the troublesome stuff (and maybe even report it and tell them you are reporting it so they associate that address with trouble rather than money).

It feels like catching it just before it goes out the door is too late in the cycle.

[dekindy]

Update: My Mother is now in the nursing home and neither my Mom or Dad will entertain the idea that she will not get well enough to go home. Supposed to have a case conference Thursday morning so hopefully will find out something more definitive now that she has a few weeks of therapy. She is actually already getting around better at the nursing home than she was at home so some uncertainty there regarding how much or even if she wants to go home. Definitely not happy at the nursing home but at least for now grasps the concept that my Dad can not take care of her until she gets much more self sufficient.

I had not been receiving any packets from the postmaster in several months so that my Dad was no longer receiving solicitations from scam artists. Was I ever wrong? They are not filtering out very many and he has been receiving many mailers and also the phone has been ringing off the hook. Police, bank, post office, Walmart, etc. and I are not able to stop him. I had elected to do nothing because I though the problem was taken care of.

It may seem obvious what I should do but it is not to me. Unless my parents die anyway soon all their assets will be used up and they will be on Medicaid to pay for the nursing home. So do I spend a lot of time and money to protect a small amount of assets or do I let my Dad have what freedom he has left despite the cost? He has a problem with memory but otherwise seems to function okay for now. He is not going to go to the nursing home voluntarily as long as he can fight it and will not entertain the thought that my Mom will not get strong enough to come home from the nursing home. Everyone thinks he is okay driving around town.

I am also hesitant because I think they will both give up as neither views being in a nursing as living. Both their parents had to be forced by circumstances before they gave up their freedom and that has always been the way for both sides of my family. On the other hand, the police, bank, post office, etc. do not hesitate in their answer when I ask them if I should do something. They say it is time for family to take over and I am the only child they have. They have nieces and nephews that come from large families and my Mom and Dad are the only aunt and uncle they have left so I do have help from a couple of local cousins and my Mom's brother while they were at home but it is pretty much up to my now.

This is one of the most difficult decisions I have ever had to struggle with.

[tiretrax]

Update: My Mother is now in the nursing home and neither my Mom or Dad will entertain the idea that she will not get well enough to go home. Supposed to have a case conference Thursday morning so hopefully will find out something more definitive now that she has a few weeks of therapy. She is actually already getting around better at the nursing home than she was at home so some uncertainty there regarding how much or even if she wants to go home. Definitely not happy at the nursing home but at least for now grasps the concept that my Dad can not take care of her until she gets much more self sufficient.

I had not been receiving any packets from the postmaster in several months so that my Dad was no longer receiving solicitations from scam artists. Was I ever wrong? They are not filtering out very many and he has been receiving many mailers and also the phone has been ringing off the hook. Police, bank, post office, Walmart, etc. and I are not able to stop him. I had elected to do nothing because I though the problem was taken care of.

It may seem obvious what I should do but it is not to me. Unless my parents die anyway soon all their assets will be used up and they will be on Medicaid to pay for the nursing home. So do I spend a lot of time and money to protect a small amount of assets or do I let my Dad have what freedom he has left despite the cost? He has a problem with memory but otherwise seems to function okay for now. He is not going to go to the nursing home voluntarily as long as he can fight it and will not entertain the thought that my Mom will not get strong enough to come home from the nursing home. Everyone thinks he is okay driving around town.

I am also hesitant because I think they will both give up as neither views being in a nursing as living. Both their parents had to be forced by circumstances before they gave up their freedom and that has always been the way for both sides of my family. On the other hand, the police, bank, post office, etc. do not hesitate in their answer when I ask them if I should do something. They say it is time for family to take over and I am the only child they have. They have nieces and nephews that come from large families and my Mom and Dad are the only aunt and uncle they have left so I do have help from a couple of local cousins and my Mom's brother while they were at home but it is pretty much up to my now.

This is one of the most difficult decisions I have ever had to struggle with.

Have you talked with a family law or geriatric care lawyer? If you don't know any, call the State Bar Association for a reference. I think you need to get conservatorship of your parents and their assets to ensure they are not wasted. Been there, done that for my grandparents. My cousins were no help and wanted to get their mitts on everything. No fun. I hope things work out for you.

[robin3mj]

Did either of them serve in the military during wartime? If so, both would be eligible for some level of VA Aid and Attendance.
The paperwork procss has gotten easier of late but getting ahead of it before you truly start to use it is helpful.

[AngryScientist]

wish i had some answers, but i do not. just wanted to chime in and say that you're a good man for caring as much as you do, and there simply is no right answer sometimes, just have to pick a path and hope for the best. it is a very difficult position, hang in there.

[Peter P.]

You've got to do something to preserve your parents' assets and control their disbursement because I presume if they insist on even trying to stay at home then there has to be money to pay for the upkeep, daily bills, and taxes. Don't even try to entertain the thought that you'll cover any financial shortfall with your own money.

Time to meet with an attorney, visit a local senior center for staff advice, or contact your local council on aging-check the phonebook.

Fortunately, I didn't have to battle with my parents to obtain power of attorney and control their finances. With P.O.A. , I was able to dig my mom out of the financial hole she was in. I can appreciate the situation you're currently in.

[dekindy]

The last couple of days my Mother is having what I would term as her second major episode of sundowners. I called the nursing home and discussed my Mom's situation and she has observed my Dad's physical condition and I made her aware of his mental difficulties. She basically said that I am not doing them any favors and need to proceed immediately with taking over their affairs so that is what I am going to do. I appreciated the terminology she used as that is what made me see the light. The nurse had also gone through the same thing with her parents. Thanks for listening.

I was also not aware that sundowners is a deteriorating condition so there is probably no hope of her going home. Will find out for certain Thursday.

[tiretrax]

The last couple of days my Mother is having what I would term as her second major episode of sundowners. I called the nursing home and discussed my Mom's situation and she has observed my Dad's physical condition and I made her aware of his mental difficulties. She basically said that I am not doing them any favors and need to proceed immediately with taking over their affairs so that is what I am going to do. I appreciated the terminology she used as that is what made me see the light. The nurse had also gone through the same thing with her parents. Thanks for listening.

I was also not aware that sundowners is a deteriorating condition so there is probably no hope of her going home. Will find out for certain Thursday.

Sorry to hear that. My grandfather went down relatively quickly, but my grandmother was in a nursing home for 15 years. It was awful. It seems like you're strong, but be sure to take care of yourself. Get in some good rides often, eat well, get plenty of rest.

[dekindy]

Need wise counsel from forum.

The good news is that Mom has decided to stay in nursing home permanently and during our visit made an unsolicited statement that they(she and my Dad) need an administrator.

The bad news is that she has been talking to God and God has told her that he is going to send my Dad a lot of money. Despite the best efforts of everyone(banks, postmaster, local and state police, and relatives) my Dad has access to cash stored in a home safe and is still sending money to scam artists promising him that he has won cars, millions of dollars, etc. He also told me yesterday to wait on the administrator which means that he wants to keep pursuing winning money and it will never end.

My concern is that if I have an Attorney begin proceedings my Dad will just hide the cash and my efforts will be futile. I am considering an intervention with all my relatives present to present the situation to both of them at the same time and get Power of Attorney signed and then proceed immediately to his house to confiscate the cash. If that does not work I guess I will take them to Court.

Any suggestions? I am also concerned that if they do not initiate this through and have their own Attorney that my Dad will contact an Attorney and try to unravel this. Should I contact a local Attorney and have the papers drawn up and take my Dad in to get them signed? I think Mom will sign but she is probably legally incapacitated and I might have trouble there if my Dad wants to make a fuss.

I am also considering using LegalZoom.com to create the documents? Is this stupid? Should I get a local Attorney draw up the papers and have my Dad pay for it so he has representation and it will be binding?

This is really a nightmare as I live 200 miles away.

[bikerboy337]

So sorry to hear this. They are lucky to have such a caring son. I would contact an attorney. I think it is money well spent in these situations and they should have a wealth of experience with these situations and can help you find the right path.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PQJ]

Hell no on legalzoom. It's fine for canned documents if you have some subject matter expertise and know what you need / what to change. It's also fine if you don't care about the end result or the risk of screwing it up. Sounds to me like you're in a situation where it needs to be done right the first time, and the only way to do that is to get a lawyer. It'll be money well spent, imo. Good luck!

[malcolm]

[QUOTE=PQJ;1587240]Hell no on legalzoom. It's fine for canned documents if you have some subject matter expertise and know what you need / what to change. It's also fine if you don't care about the end result or the risk of screwing it up. Sounds to me like you're in a situation where it needs to be done right the first time, and the only way to do that is to get a lawyer. It'll be money well spent, imo. Good luck![/QUOT

I agree, if you can afford it I would have a real face to face attorney. Hard to really know what to say. Intervention most likely will produce little change but this is a scenario where you have to try everything so at least you'll have no regrets. I don't know your dad's history but it appears he has some form of dementia and no one, no way, no how will convince him this isn't real once he has it in his head (generally speaking). It becomes a protecting him from himself situation. Heart breaking to have to go through that. He must have done something right in his life to have a son that cares, good luck to you.

[carpediemracing]

One more vote on a face-to-face lawyer thing. There may be ways of handling your situation and a lawyer would know them.

[Peter P.]

Forget legalzoom.com.

Contact an attorney immediately. They may be able to freeze the "money in the safe" until this is unraveled and dealt with. They may also have other avenues to interrupt your father's actions. I wouldn't wait to try and build a consensus with your relatives for an intervention. It might consume too much time.

Check with the administrators of the nursing home and your local council on aging as well for advice. You've got to get your parents declared incompetent and take control of their money if you intend to handle their finances responsibly.

[fmbp]

I didn't see this thread when it was first posted.

I would consider a neuropsychological evaluation for your father (full disclosure, I am a neuropsychologist). A neuropsychological evaluation will evaluate your father's cognitive strengths and weaknesses (i.e., decision making, reasoning, memory, language, etc), which can be used in part to form a strong empirical basis for declaring a person competent or incompetent to make financial/legal/medical decisions. If you'd like a local referral, PM me. Also, if you have questions that I can address, just let me know.

P.S. I'm based in Iowa City and will soon be relocating to the Twin Cities. It's not my intent to profit from this suggestion.

[dekindy]

I forgot to clarify that my Mom is totally on board with my taking over so it is only my Dad that is the problem now. Unfortunately he is the one still out in the Community!

[dekindy]

It has been amazing how much over the past couple of months that my Mother has improved with physical therapy and medication changes. She is going to the dining room for meals, playing bingo, porch talks(whatever that is), and just generally in a good mood. Being in the nursing home would help my Dad but not sure how to make that happen. He needs an artificial knee replaced and I was going to offer to stay with him during rehab. However I think I am going to insist on the nursing home and for rehab and hope it is permanent.

[dekindy]

I think I have finally got things under control.

Mail is being forwarded to my Mother at the nursing home. Only first and second class mail is forwarded so almost or maybe all scam materials will not be forwarded.

Got Power of Attorney and now have access to all accounts and will be paying all bills.

And last but not least, despite my parent's objections, changed their telephone number and trying to prevent them from finding out. Bank rep has talked to my Dad the last couple of days as a favor to me so that all incoming telephone traffic does not stop. My Dad reports that the scammers have not called for 2 days. He also sounds much better as the scam phone calls and paying the bills were probably stressing him out. That and learning for certain that my Mom is never coming home unless he wins a lot of money and can afford 24-hour care.

The bad news is that my Dad tested for severe dementia. I had no idea it was that bad. Convinced him to schedule an appointment to get his knee looked at and hopefully they will replace his artificial knee and he will rehab and then will force him to stay in the nursing home. However the doctor prescribed medication for the dementia so if this helps and his knee gets better and we continue to keep the scammers away, maybe he can live at home for awhile longer. Based upon his test score and the amount of decline that is predicted annually it is really frightening. The medicine will hopefully slow the decline and in some cases has restored ability so we will hope for the best.

Everybody that I talk to has either directly dealt with an elderly relative that has fallen prey to the scammers or knows someone that is dealing with this issue with their elderly relatives. This is an epidemic that I really have not heard this much about until I recently became aware of it because of my Dad. Once my Mom went to the nursing home the small dollar amounts quickly became hundreds and then thousands. Thankfully the police, banks and postal authorities have been able to intervene and stop or intercept most of the outgoing letters and packages. Latest were packages to California and New York that I found out about purely by accident and the post office and inspector general went to great lengths to intercept. I should receive those packages soon and am anxious to discover the contents. I am expecting thousands of dollars in cash as I had him shut off from the banks and post office in his town. I am sure he took cash and went to an out of town post office this last time. I only found out about it because he handed me a stack of materials from his wallet to help him find his knee doctor information or it would have been gone forever and nobody would even have known.

Dementia is tough to deal with as it is gradual and in many ways my Dad is still sharp until it comes to the front of your consciousness and you notice that the things he is sharp about are in long term memory and the things he has difficulty with are short term related. I am sure that the majority of the time he knows not to participate in the scams but sometimes the dementia symptoms are worse and he forgets. Once they get a hold of you the telephone literally rings off the wall and I could not convince my Dad to change it. Now that I know the score it had to be done and I figured he would not learn that the number is changed. Not sure of the consequences if he does find out but will just have to live with it.

[rePhil]

Thanks for sharing. We are starting to go through this with my mother in law.
It's sad.



I think I have finally got things under control.

Mail is being forwarded to my Mother at the nursing home. Only first and second class mail is forwarded so almost or maybe all scam materials will not be forwarded.

Got Power of Attorney and now have access to all accounts and will be paying all bills.

And last but not least, despite my parent's objections, changed their telephone number and trying to prevent them from finding out. Bank rep has talked to my Dad the last couple of days as a favor to me so that all incoming telephone traffic does not stop. My Dad reports that the scammers have not called for 2 days. He also sounds much better as the scam phone calls and paying the bills were probably stressing him out. That and learning for certain that my Mom is never coming home unless he wins a lot of money and can afford 24-hour care.

The bad news is that my Dad tested for severe dementia. I had no idea it was that bad. Convinced him to schedule an appointment to get his knee looked at and hopefully they will replace his artificial knee and he will rehab and then will force him to stay in the nursing home. However the doctor prescribed medication for the dementia so if this helps and his knee gets better and we continue to keep the scammers away, maybe he can live at home for awhile longer. Based upon his test score and the amount of decline that is predicted annually it is really frightening. The medicine will hopefully slow the decline and in some cases has restored ability so we will hope for the best.

Everybody that I talk to has either directly dealt with an elderly relative that has fallen prey to the scammers or knows someone that is dealing with this issue with their elderly relatives. This is an epidemic that I really have not heard this much about until I recently became aware of it because of my Dad. Once my Mom went to the nursing home the small dollar amounts quickly became hundreds and then thousands. Thankfully the police, banks and postal authorities have been able to intervene and stop or intercept most of the outgoing letters and packages. Latest were packages to California and New York that I found out about purely by accident and the post office and inspector general went to great lengths to intercept. I should receive those packages soon and am anxious to discover the contents. I am expecting thousands of dollars in cash as I had him shut off from the banks and post office in his town. I am sure he took cash and went to an out of town post office this last time. I only found out about it because he handed me a stack of materials from his wallet to help him find his knee doctor information or it would have been gone forever and nobody would even have known.

Dementia is tough to deal with as it is gradual and in many ways my Dad is still sharp until it comes to the front of your consciousness and you notice that the things he is sharp about are in long term memory and the things he has difficulty with are short term related. I am sure that the majority of the time he knows not to participate in the scams but sometimes the dementia symptoms are worse and he forgets. Once they get a hold of you the telephone literally rings off the wall and I could not convince my Dad to change it. Now that I know the score it had to be done and I figured he would not learn that the number is changed. Not sure of the consequences if he does find out but will just have to live with it.

[dekindy]

My Mom has taken a turn for the worse. After getting settled in at the nursing home and skilled care they monitored her closely, changed her meds, and had her going GREAT! for about 6 weeks. Then it all went downhill. She has gone from playing bingo and making friends to major dementia symptoms in the span of only a few weeks. She does not want to eat, take meds, and has hallucinations, and can be physically combative at times. It is really terrible to see and the caregivers are doing everything they can but it is mostly up to the patient's condition whether they get better or not. Her body could be shutting down or she could just be having a major episode that could last for an indeterminate time before she feels like eating and taking meds again, get better, and do this over and over for years. They really do not know. What a helpless feeling!

Dad had his knee joint replaced and after 3 weeks is doing well. He is in the same nursing home as my Mom but will probably go back home. His dementia is worse than my Mom's but his symptoms are different and allow him to stay at home, with help, and which he is determined to do until he absolutely cannot live on his own. I was concerned and thought I should make him stay but after seeing the pain and effort he is going through at age 81 to have his knee joint replaced so he can stay mobile and seeing the condition of the nursing home residents, I will never make him do anything unless it is a last resort.

[Louis]

Sorry to hear that about your mother. Could it be due to the change in meds?

[Ken Robb]

My mom was about 90 when we thought a couple of weeks in a really nice nursing would be just the thing to get her squared away because she was not keeping up with her meds at her home. She walked in and two weeks later she left in a wheelchair never to walk or care for herself again. Sometimes we just run out of gas and time.

[unterhausen]

I would have the providers reconsider the change in meds, particularly if any of them have a long half-life. In any event, take care of yourself and don't beat yourself up because they aren't happy or suffer setbacks. I can't imagine anyone being particularly happy in your parent's conditions. They would be much worse off without you.