135mm rear axle?

[jpw]

Any thoughts on the idea of having a road frame designed with 135mm rear axle spacing?

Why? Rohloff, and more ss and fixed choices...(?)

Yes/No. Vote now.

[jpw]

Boing.

[jpw]

Boing.

[Kevin]

Forgive my ignorance. What does boing mean?

Kevin

[jpw]

A paralinguism.
The sound of my original post bouncing back to the top so as not to be overwhelmed before a reply is received by the flood of later posts.

[jpw]

You are forgiven.
So, 135mm. Yes or no?

[jerk]

nothing wrong with it....but everyone knows a proper single speed has 120 spacing....

[Peter]

My commuter bike has a 135mm/700C wheel. Less dish means a wheel which should less likely go out of true, and I can vouch that it works! I put panniers on the back for my commute, so there's extra weight over the rear wheel to help "torture" things, and it just doesn't flinch. My only concern would be heel clearance, but an extra 2.5mm per side shouldn't cause problems.

The only other problem I can think of is if you want to do a wheel swap with your buddy, or borrow a wheel for some reason, then it's likely NOT to fit.

[Too Tall]

What the heck. Parts is parts and you are in no hurry? But, what's wrong with 130? In order to take advantage of "what's at hand" I like Riv's approach spacing the frame 132.5....which I'm glad to do for you B.Y.O. 2X4X8

[saab2000]

...will allow you to not only build a slightly stronger wheel, it will allow you to use a Shimano XT hub, which IMHO, is the best hub out there for riding in grimy, gritty wet weather. It is inexpensive and does a very good job of keeping the elements out.

My new Surly, of which I am proud :D , has 135 Surly hubs and is a flip-flop hub, meaning I can turn it around if I want. It is symmetrical and hopefully this will create a wheel which I do not have problems with.

[jpw]

i'm not going 132.5mm. That's a compromise with no real advantages.
It's 130 or 135, end of story.
I see Phil Wood make 135 road hubs and King only do 135 singlespeed hubs. Rohloff is also only 135. There seem to be several more options in 135 and i'm not swapping wheels with 'road buddies' because i won't get them back any time soon. It's the book borrowing syndrome. I used to have a lot more books than i do now!
I think it's got to be 135mm. In fact, in an email with King their view about 130mm was that it... "just isn't standard anymore".
I tend to agree.
Obviously this is not what those with a collection of 130mm bikes wants to hear. You can still ride them but it's not the way of things to come, IMhumbleO.
Next will be the bb standard- isisoverdrive (.com).

[Smiley]

Co-Motion offers a SINGLE touring frame with 145 mm spacing using Tandem hubs and cool tandem tricks like drum rear brakes. See if you let your imagination think it , it can happen. Check them out on the web.

[Too Tall]

You can be an army of one that's cool and building 135 700c makes good technical sense. The issue and point I was trying to make is that there is this great big world "out there" full of mah and pop operations ,or smaller, that will not hand you a 135 700c wheel when you are stuck in NorthWest I'mHerebygosh and your wheel is toasted. Using a decent rim with a PHIL WOOD hub (hehehe) and 130 gives a freakin' strong build. What's the problem? It's strong enough to hold my big hairy knuckle draggin fanny.

Just ignore me. I often think in terms of what does your inner-randoneur voice tell you to do which equates to who really cares?

[jpw]

Message received loud and clear.
Take it easy.

[jpw]

If i'm out in the sticks and the rear wheel collapses i'll get my phone out and call...International Rescue.

The chances of there being a bike shop near to hand will be quite slim anyway and probably not within duck waddling distance, and even though i do use tool steel Coombe cleats i think they will have worn down before i got there.

I could carry a couple of washers to fill the 5mm difference when borrowing a 130mm wheel just to trundle home, once in a very blue moon.

I've only ever had two rear wheel 'failures' and on both occasions i was able to limp back without outside assistance. Took a little longer but i made it.

I'll Rohloff my winters.

[Peter]

Not only do I have a 135mm rear end as mentioned in my earlier post, but I also have a Phil Wood cassette hub like jpw is thinking about.

Here are the pros and cons:

Pros-bulletproof; cartridge bearings for long life and easy service; disassembles with only two 5mm allen wrenches; differential flange sizes require only one spoke length for the rear wheel; cassette body is steel not alloy like King and Shimano Dura Ace 10speed so it avoids all the problems the latter two are having with distorted grooves, sloppy cassette fit, and the like.

Cons-Very expensive; after 4k miles on mine, the cassette bearings still don't spin anywhere near as freely as even the cheapest Shimano; substantially heavier than even inexpensive Shimano stuff.

I don't think you'll have any worries about this hub failing you ANYWHERE.

[Jeff N.]

If they decide to have, say, 15 cogs in the rear someday, they'll HAVE to go with 135mm. Jeff N.

[jpw]

15 cogs. Now that would be interesting.

Let's lobby for a 150mm spacing and DEMAND a 30 cogger. I want it. I want it...now!

Back to reality,...for a moment.

When i buy a frame i'm not thinking about the selling of it at some point in the future. I'm not too concerned about it's marketability with a 135mm rear spacing. There will be enough people out there who appreciate it's virtue.

Borrowing a wheel is not a real issue, IMhumbleO.

There are far more positives than negatives to this idea.

Thanks for the input from everyone. I've decided.

[jbay]

Peter wrote:

[...]cassette body is steel not alloy like King and Shimano Dura Ace 10speed so it avoids all the problems the latter two are having with distorted grooves, sloppy cassette fit, and the like.


Actually Peter, I'm sorry to say that I and several other people that I have read about on various internet forums have had issues with sprockets making indentations in Phil Wood cassette bodies. The official reason I heard was that there was a batch of cassette bodies that received improper heat treatment. Regardless, it's a pain!



I don't think you'll have any worries about this hub failing you ANYWHERE.

I probably shouldn't mention that the missus and I have broken a pawl spring on the tandem. That said, it did keep working, but made a horrible clunk when you resumed pedaling after freewheeling.

All that said, I love the wheel I have which is built around a 130mm spaced, 7-speed Phil cassette hub. It has the lowest dish of anything you can get these days (as well as being a low q-factor bigot, I'm a low wheel dish bigot too!), bar a singlespeed or fixed rear hub.

-- John

[jpw]

Pawl problems can be so frustrating.

I had a Mavic 571/2 rear hub assembly a little while back and those tiny flipping (i don't mean flippin' here) engaging ramps just couldn't take the strain in the long term. Always breaking, and not in a nice clean way. The debris would foul up the hub/cassette surface interface beautifully. Eventually i scrapped it. That's what can happen with a design incorporating only two pawls. A flawed design indeed. In all other respects a nice hub. I don't know what MAvic are up to at the moment. They seem to have exited the hub/groupset arena except for their (do they make them?) caliper brakes. Disappointing because that is (was?) a company with some good ideas. Now it's just rims, rims and more rims.

[Too Tall]

jbay, call Brent and ask for a beefier spring. The one you want will have approx. 1 1/2 wraps. He can send you one that is a full two wraps and you can play with trimming the spring until it's to your liking.

Peter, if the cassette body is not spinning freely perhaps you are using too much lube or too heavy lube. Phil grease is the right stuff and not very much. The right amt. of lube is less than you think.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . I have it on good authority that your distress call has been received and Thunderbird 1 is in route to your location at Mach 11, followed by Thunderbird 2 carrying a completely equipped and staffed repair shop in an air-droppable pod.

Those Tracy boys are so efficient!

Oh, and I almost forgot--T1 is carrying free beer to help you with the waiting for T2!

BBDave (Long-time Thunderbirds and bad puppetry fan!) :beer:

[PaulE]

I assume you know there is a Thunderbirds movie coming out in August.

http://www.thunderbirdsmovie.com/usa_flash_site.html

Myself, I was more a fan of Supercar. Must be my age.

[Ozz]

Finally!!! Someone remembers "Thunderbirds are Go!"

I have talked about this old series with some friends (my age and older) and they look at me like I am from Mars. They have never heard of the series.

I've been eyeing the megaset DVD collections for sale on e-bay. You gotta luv kids shows that encourage drinking, smoking, and driving too fast!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3391195038&category=41589

[Too Tall]

Ozz, of course I remember...BUT YOU COULD SEE THE FREAKIN STRINGS. It was embarassing. Now Lancelot Link, sigh.

Was that off topic?

[Ozz]

ahhhh....Lancelot Link, Secret Chimp!

[jpw]

That's the first time i'm ever seen a Thunderbird 1 painted in Mavic Service yellow and black.

Frightened the life out of me. I thought it was i giant bumblebee!!

The compensation? The beer was pure nectar!

Buzz, buzz.

[flydhest]

Yeah, Ozz, keep goin', keep goin'!

Lance Link, secret chimp (bahm, bahm, bahm!)
He stands for justice,
He has no fear,
He's the agent to call
When trouble is near.

Lance Link, secret chimp (bahm, bahm, bahm!)

It took me so long into my (quasi) adult life to understand the joke behind his female side-kick's name.

[Ozz]

check this out:

http://www.nostalgiacentral.com/index.htm

[jbay]

Too Tall wrote:
jbay, call Brent and ask for a beefier spring. The one you want will have approx. 1 1/2 wraps. He can send you one that is a full two wraps and you can play with trimming the spring until it's to your liking.[...]

Too Tall,

I've been there, done that - kinda' sorta'. That is, on a previous Phil hub on a prior tandem, we were getting a bad clunking problem when resuming pedaling after freewheeling. Phil Wood suggested a stiffer spring, which I duly installed. I don't recall how long it was, but the hub still clunked after fitting it.

The hub that broke a pawl spring is a more recent one. I fitted the replacement spring without paying any attention to length, but I suspect it had 1-1/2 wraps. It still clunks from time to time, but it has been sporadic, versus constant.

-- John

[Too Tall]

Stupid question (me). Did you get a replacement set of pawls? If yah than inspect and chase the pawl valleys very hard with a dentist tool and inspect for hard crud in the valleys and for a chipped or rounded pawl.

I actually wore out a set of pawls on my road bike and had the same symptoms. The pawl nose (trailing edge) becomes rounded.

If that ain't it, you are a bunch of gorillas who ougth to have a BELT drive bike!!! No seriously, next step might be to clean out the grease and use plain old mobil 1 motor oil and get snappier engagement this esp. if you kids are having a problem in a small gear inch under big loads. Don't freak out about having almost no visible grease in there you just need a hint of lube.

What would Lancelot Link do?

[jpw]

After a long telephone conversation with Bernard Verchey (spelling?) at Mavic in Annecy, France, i did receive replacement pawls. I think his previous job was working for the French Secret Service as an interrogator; an interesting man to deal with!

Anyway, i used the replacement pawls...until they also snapped.
As i said before, a flawed design. Not enough pawls through the 360 degrees to spread the energy transfer. I only realised after the purchase and some miles down the road of this weakness. You live and learn.

It's not just Mavic hubs. A Campagnolo Chorus also self destructed in a similar way.

I'm thinking hard about the King Ringdrive design for my next experiment in product road testing. Also Phil Wood and perhaps Tune, if they make rear hubs (can't remember as i write)?

I find that pawl springs are very sensitive to dirt ingress and after cleaning it's difficult to get just the right lube, not too thick to clog the movement and not too thin to be of use.

[Too Tall]

JPW - at the risk of being labeled (again) you won't like King hubs if you use them hard. The ring drive is one sweet thing of beauty until the lube goes gummy from dirt and than it will skip...there is no such thing as a partial PM on the ring drive other than a bodge...tilt it downhill, spray the crap out of the drive with something CRCish and use a rag to try and protect the cartridge bearings. You'll need their overhaul tool ($$$$$) to pull the hub apart and properly clean it.

Look at Hugi. Their mech. is not so sensitive to dirt and is a snap to PM the star ratchet. I've used both to cross the USA and Hugi won the torture test by a far sight.