Riders that don't hold their line

[yoshirider]

There's a guy in a local group ride that drives me nuts because he sits behind and in between 2 riders screwing up our double file (we don't run a pace line). To make matters worse he doesn't ride straight so he will veer from left to right slightly causing me to think "who the f--- are you following dude????" I absolutely hate riding behind him and I'm sure others do too. It's like he doesn't know how to ride in a group or doesn't care. He doesn't signal for crap on the floor either. I would say this guy is 70+ years old and I expected better habits... The only good thing is he isn't slow so we don't have to pass him everytime. What to do?

[FlashUNC]

Suggest that he sit at the back?

I've more than once sat up from a sketchy group ride and just gone home solo. Way better than hitting the deck because of someone who doesn't know how to ride.

I'll admit to saying some very unkind things to a guy who used aerobars in a paceline once. I can forgive a lot, but that's unbelievably dangerous...

[jpw]

i feel nervous in the company of other cyclists. i much prefer to ride alone or with a good buffer distance.

[Benny Profane]

I ride and drink alone.

[mike p]

Have a talk with him. Just cause he's older doesn't mean he's ever been taught proper riding etiquette. He could be very receptive and become a better rider. Win win.

Mike

[VirtualElvis]

You can suggest that he checks out videos on youtube.... On how to ride in
A group, peloton and paceline. Everyone else will be glad you did. The guys I ride with will just straight up yell
At each other if they are not riding right.... And nobody cries.


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[biker72]

Have a talk with him. Just cause he's older doesn't mean he's ever been taught proper riding etiquette. He could be very receptive and become a better rider. Win win.

Mike
+1
This is a great suggestion. Don't assume old people know everything...:)
I'm 75 and still learning.

[Lewis Moon]

I've been out of the sport for 20+ years and the concept of pack riding scares the living crap out of me. Not because I think I'll crash, but because I worry that I'll crash someone else. When someone is on my wheel, about 50% of my energy goes toward making sure I ride straight, point out crap, keep an even pace and signal when things will change. A pack is a community, and as such, it requires each of the individual members to contribute to keeping it functioning well.

[jgspin]

I ride double file when I know and trust the riders, the road will support a double file and the traffic is very light. I use a mirror so I slow down and ride behind when the road narrows and traffic gets busy. Having said that if I wanted to keep the double file I would ride next to him on his left and slowly nudge him to the right or speed up ahead of him and tell him I will take that spot. If that doesn't work I will go ahead and pull or stay back and give him room or just ride with another group.

I myself will ride behind and in between when I know the road is narrow and crappy; I want to see all the road hazards and the other riders are way behind me. I also do that when I want to work harder so I get out of the draft.

[mike p]

You need to update your Icon:-)

Mike

QUOTE=biker72;1425817]+1
This is a great suggestion. Don't assume old people know everything...:)
I'm 75 and still learning.[/QUOTE]

[mike p]

All true Lewis, but once you get back into it, it becomes second nature again and cost you no energy. At 56 it's one reason I don't let up on racing. When I quit it'll be the end, no comebacks. I'll start touring and riding just for fun.

Mike

I've been out of the sport for 20+ years and the concept of pack riding scares the living crap out of me. Not because I think I'll crash, but because I worry that I'll crash someone else. When someone is on my wheel, about 50% of my energy goes toward making sure I ride straight, point out crap, keep an even pace and signal when things will change. A pack is a community, and as such, it requires each of the individual members to contribute to keeping it functioning well.

[Lewis Moon]

All true Lewis, but once you get back into it, it becomes second nature again and cost you no energy. At 56 it's one reason I don't let up on racing. When I quit it'll be the end, no comebacks. I'll start touring and riding just for fun.

Mike

I still have nightmares about hooking handlebars during the sprint for the AZ state road championships...back in the 70s. :eek:

I know it'll come back. What will make it come back faster is riding with a team of fast, competant riders, and not the local League of Fred Wheelmen. (I kid...really)

[MattTuck]

Telling people that are 75 to go look on youtube. hilarious :banana:


If I'm 75 and still riding, who knows what crazy crap I'll be doing.

I guess the right thing to do would be to just talk to him and mention that his weaving makes you nervous. Ask if he feels comfortable riding 2 side by side and maybe suggest he takes up the rear if he doesn't want to ride in formation.

From my experience, riding in the middle is a sign of not having trust in the people ahead of you. If you're riding a line and can only see the guy in front of you, you're putting your trust in everyone ahead of you. If you're riding in the middle, you can see what's coming up. I'm not sure that it matters... at decent speed, even if you see something happening up front, it's a pretty short time before it gets to you.

[cmg]

"because he sits behind and in between 2 riders screwing up our double file" When he moves to one side speed up and fill in the gap. When he looks up and sees you there tell him you'll take this side and smile. say "My Side, Your Side, My Side, Your Side, My Side, Your Side" with sort of a crazy look. :)

[Idris Icabod]

Somebody should talk to him. There seems to be very little in the way of mentoring in the US. I grew up in England and joined the local club by way of my father and did my first TT when I was 9. I remember the older guys with a million miles in their legs riding next to me and giving me a LOT of direction (I also remember that my dad never rode next to me). There was a lot of protection over the club rides and there was for sure a heirarchy.

[bcroslin]

The area I live in has a large number of riders that are recently retired and have picked up cycling for exercise and I've seen a lot of this style of riding. Best thing to do is to say hello and ask them if they would mind sliding over so you can ride two-by-two. That way you're not lecturing them and you're signaling that you'd like to ride next to them.

More of an issue IMO is the rider who continuously overlaps your rear wheel. I will turn back and tell them point blank that should I have to suddenly avoid something in the road they will be the one to go down if they hit my wheel. They may pop off back but I just shrug and say it's them that will end up on the pavement and not me.

Bob

[brenick]

I agree, speak to the rider. Do it after the ride when you have his complete attention. Explain proper etiquette for a double file is to ride on one side or the other...not the middle. If he feels more comfortable riding in the center, then he should ride at the back. When riders rotate from the front of the group to the back, he should let them go in front of him so he stays at the back.

[bcroslin]

There seems to be very little in the way of mentoring in the US.

THIS! I've told the guys I ride with that I felt like I had been beaten into the gang when they finally started acknowledging my existence on the rides. I routinely got yelled at for pulling through in the paceline too far in front of the rider behind me. When someone finally told me what I was doing and why it was wrong I stopped. Imagine that.

Bob

[Lewis Moon]

The area I live in has a large number of riders that are recently retired and have picked up cycling for exercise and I've seen a lot of this style of riding. Best thing to do is to say hello and ask them if they would mind sliding over so you can ride two-by-two. That way you're not lecturing them and you're signaling that you'd like to ride next to them.

More of an issue IMO is the rider who continuously overlaps your rear wheel. I will turn back and tell them point blank that should I have to suddenly avoid something in the road they will be the one to go down if they hit my wheel. They may pop off back but I just shrug and say it's them that will end up on the pavement and not me.

Bob

Naw...just go to the front, light the torch and burn 'em off. ;)

[bcroslin]

Naw...just go to the front, light the torch and burn 'em off. ;)

We do that on the training rides but I like to just spin week day mornings. The training ride here in St Pete has a bad reputation for attacking until all of the wheel suckers are gone.

Bob

[carpediemracing]

I'd talk to the rider as well. Riding to the outside might help - to be "trapped" against the curb can make some new riders nervous (personally I prefer to be against the curb, but that's me).

Also the swerving - it may be a lot of lessons for this rider. If the rider is steering with the bars they need to learn to steer with their hips.

At 75 I'd worry about crashing more than anything else. This rider may simply be uncomfortable drafting. I'd find it hard to work with that.

In a different situation, where the rider doesn't listen after repeated requests/lessons, if the rider is super defensive about how everyone else is wrong, then you squeeze the rider to the right (not to the left, since they can just go wider into traffic). "Back into" the left side of the rider by started ahead and then easing up a bit, make sure the rider is next to you, and force them to ride in a narrow section of road. Just to be clear, talking/teaching is better, but if the rider is unwilling to work with the group and creates problems (safety or bad moves toward motorists) then the group needs to take action.

[yoshirider]

Naw...just go to the front, light the torch and burn 'em off. ;)

I wish we could do that, but my endurance would give up before this guy. He's pretty fast for an older guy even on climbs and I am by no means a slow rider.

He doesn't talk at all and doesn't seem that friendly. I think I maybe heard him speak 1 sentence. I'd imagine if I ever spoke to him about his line problem he'd probably chew me out or ignore me considering that I am a girl and I look like I'm 18.

[ariw]

Was talking about the mentoring issue a few weeks ago on my regular Saturday ride. When I first started, I was told what to do, where to go, etc... by the experienced riders. It wasn't delivered with malice, just a simple acknowledgement that I was new to the sport and didn't know any better. Now, it seems like saying something to a clearly inexperienced rider always results in being snapped at. I too have pulled out of a ride when things got hairy, I have a job and a family to worry about.

-Ari

[joosttx]

When a 70 year old is in your group you should....

A) question your own fitness
B) not care about lines because you are going too slow for it to matter
C) put an extra depends in your saddle bag just in case.

In other words you are riding with a 70 year old man. Show some grace.

[Lewis Moon]

Was talking about the mentoring issue a few weeks ago on my regular Saturday ride. When I first started, I was told what to do, where to go, etc... by the experienced riders. It wasn't delivered with malice, just a simple acknowledgement that I was new to the sport and didn't know any better. Now, it seems like saying something to a clearly inexperienced rider always results in being snapped at. I too have pulled out of a ride when things got hairy, I have a job and a family to worry about.

-Ari

It also seems to differ group to group. Some require a signal for EVERYTHING, some are more laid back. I remember some folks dissolving into quivering rage because I passed on the right shoulder because I was boxed in.

[tch]

Newer riders just don't seem to "get" the protocols of riding in a pack or line. I had the interesting experience of being in a road race two weeks ago. I'm 59 and not in the racer-group anymore, but the group I was riding with was plenty fast for me (about 20-23 on the flat). But NO ONE seemed to be able to form up a strong paceline.

I was w/about 12 riders, and we could have bridged up, but no one could figure out a systematic way to ride. They knew enough to draft, but we couldn't get organized. One guy would charge to the front and everyone would follow...and then he'd tire and someone else would pass wide and everyone who could would jump out and wheel-suck until THAT guy pooped. I actually went to the front and explained a process, but when I pulled off the lead, no one came up behind me and I was left still sitting out by myself. It was like "every man for himself".

I thought those things were just taught and assimilated.

[Black Dog]

Was talking about the mentoring issue a few weeks ago on my regular Saturday ride. When I first started, I was told what to do, where to go, etc... by the experienced riders. It wasn't delivered with malice, just a simple acknowledgement that I was new to the sport and didn't know any better. Now, it seems like saying something to a clearly inexperienced rider always results in being snapped at. I too have pulled out of a ride when things got hairy, I have a job and a family to worry about.

-Ari

This. I was brought up with by being mentored and I wanted to learn to make sure that I would not hurt anyone or myself. 25 years later no one wants to learn, no one seems to care if they are risking others safety.

My club, which I am leaving at the end the season is like this. I have spoken to the club leadership and deaf ears are what I get. I will be doing more solo rides and rides with a few friends that I trust implicitly. I am done with group rides with little to no basic group riding skills. Family and Job matter and they both need me to be upright and mobile.

[Lewis Moon]

Newer riders just don't seem to "get" the protocols of riding in a pack or line. I had the interesting experience of being in a road race two weeks ago. I'm 59 and not in the racer-group anymore, but the group I was riding with was plenty fast for me (about 20-23 on the flat). But NO ONE seemed to be able to form up a strong paceline.

I was w/about 12 riders, and we could have bridged up, but no one could figure out a systematic way to ride. They knew enough to draft, but we couldn't get organized. One guy would charge to the front and everyone would follow...and then he'd tire and someone else would pass wide and everyone who could would jump out and wheel-suck until THAT guy pooped. I actually went to the front and explained a process, but when I pulled off the lead, no one came up behind me and I was left still sitting out by myself. It was like "every man for himself".

I thought those things were just taught and assimilated.


A kind of "Lord of the Flies" pack. BTDT.

[#campyuserftw]

You can suggest that he checks out videos on youtube.... On how to ride in a group, peloton and paceline.now Free (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3olW6AVNuyI

Not as powerful as Maximus. :cool:

[Tandem Rider]

Was talking about the mentoring issue a few weeks ago on my regular Saturday ride. When I first started, I was told what to do, where to go, etc... by the experienced riders. It wasn't delivered with malice, just a simple acknowledgement that I was new to the sport and didn't know any better. Now, it seems like saying something to a clearly inexperienced rider always results in being snapped at. I too have pulled out of a ride when things got hairy, I have a job and a family to worry about.

-Ari

I too have had this same discussion, more than once. I started cycling/racing in the mid 70's and the experienced riders helped us newbies learn HOW to ride. Speed and power came about as one's skills were practiced.

Now, it seems, one can read about how to ride fast, hire a coach that you never meet face to face, let alone ride with, get your watts/kg up to some magical point and voila, instant expert.

No amount of internet coaching will teach someone how to ride safely in a group, ride fast in a group, ride in the rain, ride in the rain in a group, you get the idea. I'm not bashing internet coaches, because the rider has to take responsibility for their own shortcomings and either correct them (sometimes with suggestions), or ride alone.

[Johnnyg]

There's a guy in a local group ride that drives me nuts because he sits behind and in between 2 riders screwing up our double file (we don't run a pace line). To make matters worse he doesn't ride straight so he will veer from left to right slightly causing me to think "who the f--- are you following dude????" I absolutely hate riding behind him and I'm sure others do too. It's like he doesn't know how to ride in a group or doesn't care. He doesn't signal for crap on the floor either. I would say this guy is 70+ years old and I expected better habits... The only good thing is he isn't slow so we don't have to pass him everytime. What to do?
The group needs to talk to him on specific things

he is doing and the danger involved. At his age he is probably set in his ways. A life time of bad habits and is unlikely to change. At that point he would be asked to find another group to ride with.

[VirtualElvis]

Telling people that are 75 to go look on youtube. hilarious :banana:


If I'm 75 and still riding, who knows what crazy crap I'll be doing.

I guess the right thing to do would be to just talk to him and mention that his weaving makes you nervous. Ask if he feels comfortable riding 2 side by side and maybe suggest he takes up the rear if he doesn't want to ride in formation.

From my experience, riding in the middle is a sign of not having trust in the people ahead of you. If you're riding a line and can only see the guy in front of you, you're putting your trust in everyone ahead of you. If you're riding in the middle, you can see what's coming up. I'm not sure that it matters... at decent speed, even if you see something happening up front, it's a pretty short time before it gets to you.

Somehow I missed the 70 year old part...
So Just go all Italian Breaking Away on him.... Jam a pump in his spokes..


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[Ti Designs]

When a 70 year old is in your group you should...

I was going to say attack on the hill 'cause the old guy can really motor on the flats. We probably ride with different 70 year olds...

[Ti Designs]

There seems to be very little in the way of mentoring in the US. I grew up in England and joined the local club by way of my father and did my first TT when I was 9. I remember the older guys with a million miles in their legs riding next to me and giving me a LOT of direction (I also remember that my dad never rode next to me). There was a lot of protection over the club rides and there was for sure a heirarchy.

Best answer I've seen in a long time.

Just to address a few issues:

Riding alone and fear of others: Lots of people prefer to ride alone for fear of the other person taking them down. In most threads like this you'll always see the comment like "just ride alone". This is clearly a thread about group rides and drafting - I'll leave it at that...

The answer to the fear of others is confidence in your own handling skills. This week is contact week with my team, I'm taking them out on a grass field (with borrowed carbon wheels - oops!) and playing bumper bikes. At first they're scared to establish contact. As always, there was one rider who screamed when I first bumped into her. 40 minutes later they were riding along trying to push the other riders off their line, overlapping wheels and pushing off, and I even showed our track rider the art of slotting in between two riders and pushing out both elbows to make room to get their bars past. I spend a lot of time with new riders, if I'm honest they are a bit dangerous. The only thing that makes that OK is my own handling skill and the knowledge that it doesn't take that long to get them out of their dangerous habits.

That "one guy" on the ride: This is where you need authority. The guy that people respect on the bike, the guy who sets policy within the group needs to be the one to talk with him. It's not just a few words, it's a whole ride. Try to understand the learning process, not just the end result. Nobody else learned this stuff in 30 seconds or with one quick remark. It takes time, it takes effort.