Chris Horner Releases all Bio-Data from back to 2008

[zoid]

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/12-uci-passport/

now i just have to figure out how to translate it.

[christian]

Uh-oh. Not much work happening at medical schools in South Carolina today...

[Joachim]

:)

[kgreene10]

I have no clue how to interpret that data. What's the normal variation in hematocrit level in adults? The reports show his levels shifts 3.4 points from low to high over time.

[JStonebarger]

Is Horner the first GT winner to ever do this? Another great first -- YEA, CHRIS!

Let's hope more follow his lead.

[weiwentg]

I would like his SRM data as well. But yes, this is good.

[gasman]

I have no clue how to interpret that data. What's the normal variation in hematocrit level in adults? The reports show his levels shifts 3.4 points from low to high over time.

A 3.4 point variation over time is normal.
Mine has shifted more than that though over a longer period.

[MattTuck]

USA! USA! :banana:

[jmpsmash]

thumbs up to Chris Horner.

[alessandro]

Veloclinic graphed up the data:

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/62253224144/preliminary-analysis-of-horners-biopassport-data

[efuentes]

What does this means?, my below average english does not compute

"Horner’s Biopassport is unlikely to temper the skepticism"

[nooneline]

for context: reticulocytes are "baby" red blood cells.

"For several weeks after ceasing use of rHuEPO, athletes will have elevated hemoglobin levels in tandem with suppressed reticulocyte production." Ashenden et al 2004 (http://ajcp.ascpjournals.org/content/121/6/816.full.pdf).

veloclinic is saying that because of the relationship between hemoglobin and reticulocytes, and the movement during the Vuelta, there is cause for skepticism.

me, i don't know the science or the standards.

[kgreene10]

What does this means?, my below average english does not compute

"Horner’s Biopassport is unlikely to temper the skepticism"

It means that the people who thought he was a doper before he released the data will still think he's a doper.

[alessandro]

What does this means?, my below average english does not compute

"Horner’s Biopassport is unlikely to temper the skepticism"

Hola Senor Fuentes. Veloclinic is doubtful. It means that people like him will continue to be skeptical that Horner's performance was completely normal.

[OtayBW]

Aw Geez - I was afraid of this. He has been doping all along and has obviously been advised by his 'PR handlers' to 'get out in front of the story' and release all information for best possible damage control!!:eek:...........:rolleyes:

[efuentes]

Thanks guys, time to move on to more interesting topics like Lemond bikes downtube font selection :)

[alessandro]

Thanks guys, time to move on to more interesting topics like Lemond bikes downtube font selection :)

How about some more photos of scenic back roads in Sinaloa? :)

[weiwentg]

for context: reticulocytes are "baby" red blood cells.

"For several weeks after ceasing use of rHuEPO, athletes will have elevated hemoglobin levels in tandem with suppressed reticulocyte production." Ashenden et al 2004 (http://ajcp.ascpjournals.org/content/121/6/816.full.pdf).

veloclinic is saying that because of the relationship between hemoglobin and reticulocytes, and the movement during the Vuelta, there is cause for skepticism.

me, i don't know the science or the standards.

I was going to say just this. It is odd that his reticulocytes would be low during the Vuelta. One possible explanation would be a blood infusion. He would have withdrawn blood before the Vuelta, and iirc that causes your reticulocytes to go up as your body makes new blood. By visual inspection, it looks like his reticulocytes were on the higher end of his range before the Vuelta, according to the blog.

I have been searching for typical values for the OFF score. I am so far unable to interpret the results - no biological science background, unfortunately.

Scientists involved in blood doping would have established typical ranges for all these physical measurements or scores. No doubt scientists are going to go over this. I would wait for someone to do that before pronouncing anything. Remember, this level of variation could be within expected limits.

[efuentes]

How about some more photos of scenic back roads in Sinaloa? :)

Your wish is my command,

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z111/mundofuentes/arideacrossthebays/intothewild.jpg (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/mundofuentes/media/arideacrossthebays/intothewild.jpg.html)

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z111/mundofuentes/arideacrossthebays/DSC01447.jpg (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/mundofuentes/media/arideacrossthebays/DSC01447.jpg.html)

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z111/mundofuentes/Three%20doods%20do%20the%20Copper%20Canyon/minus1week08.jpg (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/mundofuentes/media/Three%20doods%20do%20the%20Copper%20Canyon/minus1week08.jpg.html)

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z111/mundofuentes/efuentesnearcreel.jpg (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/mundofuentes/media/efuentesnearcreel.jpg.html)

[Joachim]

I am going over them and will discuss it with a few of my colleagues.

[nooneline]

Scientists involved in blood doping would have established typical ranges for all these physical measurements or scores. No doubt scientists are going to go over this. I would wait for someone to do that before pronouncing anything. Remember, this level of variation could be within expected limits.

I think there's a fair bit of interpretation that happens, but, yeah, I'm sure some Actual Scienticians will weigh in.

[cfox]

I understand the gesture, but doing so just puts into question the scientists charged with looking at this stuff. If there was anything there, they should've found it.

[dziehr]

The "preliminary analysis" strikes me as very biased; without any statistical analysis, the conclusions "Hgb was within Horner's typical range," and "reticulocyte % was low/suppressed" are meaningless. Further, swings between hemoconcentration and dilution aren't uncommon in athletes, especially in the context of extreme exertion and imperfect attempts at rehydration. Without further information, these data cannot be used to draw any conclusions and, for that reason, erring on the side of suspicion strikes me as unfair and irresponsible. Saying "[the data] are unlikely to temper the skepticism" is different from what an actual analysis would likely show: that you cannot disprove the null (even while ignoring the incomplete nature of the data).

[christian]

erring on the side of suspicion strikes me as unfair and irresponsible.Professional cycling, you've heard of it?

[rain dogs]

Yeah, this is where admittedly I for sure, and most of us, would be subject to the ignorance and pseudo-science claim.

I've read a number of Ashenden's numerous articles... and have my own initial thoughts... but... what do I know?

I can't imagine Horner would release this stuff if he didn't see it as neutral or favorable, but then there was the news report, after the fiasco of the post-Vuelta whereabouts screw-up by USADA, that said:

"Two days previously, the American Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) had asked its Spanish counterpart to take blood and urine samples due to suspicions raised by the cyclist’s biological passport."

[alessandro]

Your wish is my command.

Excellente! I took the liberty of posting them in the gravel roads thread. Now we can get back to disparaging El Abuelito. ;)

veloclinic said it was preliminary, and threw up a few graphs based on the data, w/a couple of comments.

I would expect more analysis in a few days from the Sportsscientists guys.

[Joachim]

The "preliminary analysis" strikes me as very biased; without any statistical analysis, the conclusions "Hgb was within Horner's typical range," and "reticulocyte % was low/suppressed" are meaningless. Further, swings between hemoconcentration and dilution aren't uncommon in athletes, especially in the context of extreme exertion and imperfect attempts at rehydration. Without further information, these data cannot be used to draw any conclusions and, for that reason, erring on the side of suspicion strikes me as unfair and irresponsible. Saying "[the data] are unlikely to temper the skepticism" is different from what an actual analysis would likely show: that you cannot disprove the null (even while ignoring the incomplete nature of the data).

Have you read the chapter "The Athlete’s Biological Passport and Indirect Markers of Blood Doping" in "D. Thieme and P. Hemmersbach (eds.), Doping in Sports, Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology 195, 2010"? That might give you a better framework reference to place those values. The chapter was written by Pierre Sottas and Martial Saugy (not sure if you are familiar with them....).

[MattTuck]

Have you read the chapter "The Athlete’s Biological Passport and Indirect Markers of Blood Doping" in "D. Thieme and P. Hemmersbach (eds.), Doping in Sports, Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology 195, 2010"? That might give you a better framework reference to place those values. The chapter was written by Pierre Sottas and Martial Saugy (not sure if you are familiar with them....)

How do you get into these experiments? I'd like to volunteer to get EPO and other PEDs to improve my cycling. In the name of science of course, has nothing to do with the fact that I am slow. :help:

[BumbleBeeDave]

It means that the people who thought he was a doper before he released the data will still think he's a doper.

. . . to be true no matter what he does. He could produce Jesus Christ out of a top hat and have him testify on his behalf and the haters would still hate.

BBD

[Joachim]

How do you get into these experiments? I'd like to volunteer to get EPO and other PEDs to improve my cycling. In the name of science of course, has nothing to do with the fact that I am slow. :help:

You as in the general "you"...labs that do blood doping research would post an ad in the local paper with the selection/inclusion criteria. More often than not, they already know of athletes that would be willing to partake.

[dziehr]

Have you read the chapter "The Athlete’s Biological Passport and Indirect Markers of Blood Doping" in "D. Thieme and P. Hemmersbach (eds.), Doping in Sports, Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology 195, 2010"? That might give you a better framework reference to place those values. The chapter was written by Pierre Sottas and Martial Saugy (not sure if you are familiar with them....)

No, I haven't--thanks for the citation. My reference point is analyzing CBCs from folks in the hospital, med school lectures, and browsing the exercise physiology literature in my free time--I don't pretend to be an expert in exercise physiology or markers of blood doping. That being said, I believe that these data require a more rigorous analysis before drawing any conclusions; without that analysis, it can't be said if they fit any (well characterized) trends. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Cheers.

[beeatnik]

Your wish is my command,

http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z111/mundofuentes/arideacrossthebays/intothewild.jpg (http://s195.photobucket.com/user/mundofuentes/media/arideacrossthebays/intothewild.jpg.html)


Speaking of doping, wonder how many narco runs happen in that desert on a daily basis.

WWFS (what would Ferecito say)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-lIOO5KYE

[Joachim]

it can't be said if they fit any (well characterized) trends.



And the ref I gave you will help in accomplishing that ^^^. Not about who has a dog in what fight. Just tried to be helpful. Ugh...why did I respond to this thread again.

[Elefantino]

He could produce Jesus Christ out of a top hat and have him testify on his behalf and the haters would still hate.
Are you comparing Jesus to a rabbit? :eek:

[dziehr]

And the ref I gave you will help in accomplishing that ^^^. Not about who has a dog in what fight. Just tried to be helpful. Ugh...why did I respond to this thread again.

That was helpful--and I appreciate it!

[fa63]

I was going to say just this. It is odd that his reticulocytes would be low during the Vuelta. One possible explanation would be a blood infusion. He would have withdrawn blood before the Vuelta, and iirc that causes your reticulocytes to go up as your body makes new blood. By visual inspection, it looks like his reticulocytes were on the higher end of his range before the Vuelta, according to the blog.

I have been searching for typical values for the OFF score. I am so far unable to interpret the results - no biological science background, unfortunately.

Scientists involved in blood doping would have established typical ranges for all these physical measurements or scores. No doubt scientists are going to go over this. I would wait for someone to do that before pronouncing anything. Remember, this level of variation could be within expected limits.

This website says typical OFF-score is between 80 and 110.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-legal-scientific.html

It also has a pretty good explanation of what all the numbers on the biological passport mean.

[CunegoFan]

I would like to see some other riders' data going back to 2008 so a comparison can be made.

It is interesting that Horner is one of the few who is releasing this stuff along with his power data.

Even so, I will stick with what Michael Rasmussen said about Horner, which was essentially that Horner is not jacked any more than anyone else he is competing against.

[Elefantino]

I would like to see some other riders' data going back to 2008 so a comparison can be made.

It is interesting that Horner is one of the few who is releasing this stuff along with his power data.

Even so, I will stick with what Michael Rasmussen said about Horner, which was essentially that Horner is not jacked any more than anyone else he is competing against.
I'm not sure who to believe, except that I'm pretty sure Michael Rasmussen isn't on the list.

[CunegoFan]

I'm not sure who to believe, except that I'm pretty sure Michael Rasmussen isn't on the list.

Rasmussen is very aware of what it takes to get to the top of cycling. You would have a hard time finding someone else who would give you a realistic assessment.

[zoid]

Joachim, where is your analyst? i'm very patiently waiting.

[firerescuefin]

Joachim, where is your analyst? i'm very patiently waiting.

Joachim's analyst is out buying coffee, beer and looking for women of questionable morals. When he locates them and brings them back to Joachim...we may get some good analysis.

Interns just aren't what they used to be.

[zoid]

interns, huh? you think they'd be happy to make nothing.

they're really dropping the ball on this.

[oldpotatoe]

http://www.chrishornerracing.com/12-uci-passport/

now i just have to figure out how to translate it.

why? it'll be poured over, analyzed, scrutinized, commented on and then it'll start all over again, by people who GAS more than me.

With this any most other things 'bike', put 4 people in a room and get 6 opinions.

[Joachim]

Its a secret, but actually all scientists party like rock stars during the day. We take 20min to write a two page blog entry on some doping matter (it only takes 20min during a drug fueled binge) and then back to partying again.

Even though releasing the results are nice and all, having the race schedule with it helps too. I'm surprised that he had so few tests over all the years. Thank Pat McQuaid for that. I'm still peering over the results and see if I can get some additional info. The last time I commented on doping on the forum I said "never again", so you might have to rely on the pseudoscientists on the WWW for your conclusions.

[54ny77]

I'm waiting to see his McDonald's receipts since '08 released. That'll be more telling.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/picture/gionet2454/fatty.jpg

[Elefantino]

With this any most other things 'bike', put 4 people in a room and get 6 opinions.
Or more.

(Agreed)

[zoid]

it is true.

that's not very many tests.