Stopping Power of mid 80's Campy SR

[Saxon]

I've got period SR brakes on a 1985 bike, new pads (Kool Stop) and they just don't seem to be great at slowing the bike down once I'm in high speed situations like a big decent. Nothing like the stopping power of my more modern brakes. Was this just the "way it was" or is something weird going on? Brakes are adjusted properly and my rims look good.

[merckx]

Current era brakes have given you a new perspective on the stopping power of circa 1985 Records. It is the way it was.

[Ralph]

Brakes just exert pressure against the rims. Pads do the friction work. Not much technology about mechaincal advantage of levers. I say....get better pads, or new Campy pads.....if they will fit. Try to avoid dried out 25 year old pads. I had Campy dual pivot brakes in those days.

[Ken Robb]

I have a bike with 1981 Nuovo Record group w/Standard (not short) reach brakes. Modern pads improved the stopping a lot and it is important for me to used my index and/or middle finger on the lwer part of the lever to get sufficient pressure on the lever. Braking from the hoods with my pinky and/or ring finger is weak.

[makmadoosel]

Stopping on my record equipped bike definitely requires a greater squeeze than my modern dual pivot equipped rig. I occasionally take some 120 grit emery paper to my rims on the old bike to increase friction. It seems to help some.

[Peter P.]

I had mid-80's Campy Super Record brakes on my bike. Never had a complaint about power or modulation.

The typical consumer just naturally equates "more" with "better" so the marketing and engineering folks feed off that consumer logic.

[Tony T]

I've got period SR brakes on a 1985 bike, new pads (Kool Stop) ....

Did you try the Black (KS-CR) or the Salmon (KS-CRSA).
Salmon has better breaking (but wears faster).

[Saxon]

Did you try the Black (KS-CR) or the Salmon (KS-CRSA).
Salmon has better breaking (but wears faster).

I'm using the Salmon. The pads work great on my 90's Dura-ace bike.

[cbresciani]

Yep, that's just the way it was, especially ay high speeds. Tried stopping once on my old Colnago after hitting about 50mph while drafting my dad in his old Ford Bronco. It's pretty disheartening when you're squeezing the crap out of your Campy Record brakes and your bike doesnt appear to be slowing down at all.

It really makes you appreciate the new technology of modern brakes.

[Saxon]

Thanks very much for the help and insight everyone!

[professerr]

80's SR brakes sucked and require inordinate pressure -- switching pads helps but doesn't fix this. I couldn't wait to swap them out when Shimano came out with their dual pivot stuff in the late 80s. Same thing with their rear derailleurs back then. I still have one bike with Ultegra 600 brakes, a Dura-Ace derailleur, and the rest 80's era Record/Super Record stuff. Had to file out the typical crack at the spider/crank arm junction of the Record cranks, however.

Campagnolo makes fine stuff now, but the sure had to be dragged into the future by Shimano

[Joe Bob]

My mid 80s bike brakes improved when I swapped in wheels with a machined braking surface.

[Grant McLean]

80's SR brakes sucked and require inordinate pressure -- switching pads helps but doesn't fix this. I couldn't wait to swap them out when Shimano came out with their dual pivot stuff in the late 80s. Same thing with their rear derailleurs back then.

Even the single pivot 80s era dura-ace brakes with their 7401 or 7402 aero
levers was far superior braking compared to the SR brakes and levers,
the dual pivot caliper isn't even that much of an improvement over the
7400 design.

I've swapped out the SR levers for some shimano aero levers,
and it was a dramatic improvement, the pivot is just in a better spot
for stopping power and lever feel.


-g

[fogrider]

dual pivots were not around unit the late 90s. with sr brakes changing to modern pads and using modern levers also helps. stopping power is over rated, I used delta brakes from back in the day and nr brakes, you just need enough power to slow a bit to make the turn (not many stop signs on descents).

[stien]

Wheels will make a big difference. Big.

[pbarry]

Make sure the Kool Stops are not glazed over. I always replaced stock Campy pads back in the day with KS shoes/pads cause they were cheaper and had more braking power. Life was hard back then... :beer:

[professerr]

dual pivots were not around unit the late 90s. with sr brakes changing to modern pads and using modern levers also helps. stopping power is over rated, I used delta brakes from back in the day and nr brakes, you just need enough power to slow a bit to make the turn (not many stop signs on descents).

Aye, you must be right on when dual pivots came out. Whatever they are, the Shimanos that came out around then were a big improvement. Knowing that you could slow down with modest finger pressure instead of a handful of grip made for more confident riding and racing I recall (however vaguely...)

[Grant McLean]

dual pivots were not around unit the late 90s.

Campag record and chorus switched to dual pivot in 1994.
It's quite amazing that the Campagnolo 1993 record group
basically still looked like 1987 with a few tweaks and the addition
of ergo shifters.

Shimano was innovating quickly, their first dual pivot brakes were part
of the RX-100 and 105 groups in 1990.
In 1991, the Dura ace 7403 and ultegra 6403 dual pivots came out,
making all the road groups dual pivot. That year also launched the
dura ace STI shifter.

http://www.velobase.com/CompImages/Brakes/B4C9B883-B462-4021-AA32-A9BC477C11A0.jpeg
http://velobase.com/CompImages/Brakes/F56322F3-E66A-4E30-86F1-BDAE7D7667C5.jpeg

[Pars]

I run Kool Stop Cross pads on my NR brakes on my Raleigh. I tried both the KS black and salmon inserts, but the Cross pads work much better. Bonus is the adjustable toe-in. Still not like a modern DP, but not too bad.

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/Pars1746/RRA/2012-08-10065402.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

I run Kool Stop Cross pads on my NR brakes on my Raleigh. I tried both the KS black and salmon inserts, but the Cross pads work much better. Bonus is the adjustable toe-in. Still not like a modern DP, but not too bad.

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/Pars1746/RRA/2012-08-10065402.jpg

Ohhh dear..I hear the brakes crying from here.

[texbike]

I recently rebuilt a mid 70s Masi and replaced the original pads on the Campy Record brakes with Kool Stop salmons and the cables with modern Jagwire. After giving them a proper set up and cleaning the rim surface, the brakes still suck.

I love the beauty of the old Campy stuff, but modern calipers are soooo much better...

Grant, wasn't the Dura Ace STI shifter introduced at the 1989 TdF?

Texbike

[Tandem Rider]

39 years of riding and racing, never once crashed because of single pivot brakes instead of double. Never lost a race because my brakes kept me from going slow enough.

[Pars]

Ohhh dear..I hear the brakes crying from here.

:lol:

Function over form. I have the original holders and black kool stop pads I can put back on if I want it to look proper :)

[Grant McLean]

Grant, wasn't the Dura Ace STI shifter introduced at the 1989 TdF?



Could be, they tested it a long time before it came to market.
Do you have any photos?

I know Steve Bauer had it on his bike for the 1990 Paris-Roubaix,
as well as dual-pivot brakes, which you couldn't buy that year.

There is no sign of STI in the 1990 Eddy Merckx or 1990 shimano catalogs.

Dura Ace STI bikes show up in practically everyone's 1991 model year bikes,
and in the 1991 Shimano catalog for the first time, I think that's when you
could actually buy it.

-g

[fiamme red]

In my experience, going from Campagnolo Record to Dia Compe BRS or Shimano SLR brakes made far more of a difference in stopping power than going from single-pivot to double-pivot calipers.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_sa-o.html#slr

[texbike]

Could be, they tested it a long time before it came to market.
Do you have any photos?

I know Steve Bauer had it on his bike for the 1990 Paris-Roubaix,
as well as dual-pivot brakes, which you couldn't buy that year.

There is no sign of STI in the 1990 Eddy Merckx or 1990 shimano catalogs.

Dura Ace STI bikes show up in practically everyone's 1991 model year bikes,
and in the 1991 Shimano catalog for the first time, I think that's when you
could actually buy it.

-g

From Shimano's crappy Dura Ace website: www.evolutionofperfection.com (It's a good thing that DA stuff is smoother than this website!), it states that DA STI was introduced in 1990 after extensive testing during the 1989 season.

I haven't had a chance to look for any pics yet, but believe that the 7-Eleven crew was the first to use DA STI in competition during 1989.

To bring this back on topic, the single-pivot, 7400 series brakes were MUCH better than their Campy equivalents from the period.

Texbike

[chismog]

Those SR calipers worked *awesome* with the hard anodized, non-machined rims of the day. No wonder I could descend so fast back then. :eek:

[Grant McLean]

From Shimano's crappy Dura Ace website:
it states that DA STI was introduced in 1990 after extensive testing during the 1989 season.



That makes sense, it's a bit of semantics.
The 1991 shimano dealer catalogs i have with STI in it were printed in August of 1990.
STI would have been at all the trade shows before it started shipping
on all the 1991 model year bikes in the fall of 1990.

-g

[Tim Porter]

Last year at exactly this time I was finishing up the restoration of my '83 Sachs so I could ride it at L'Eroica in Tuscany. I had the choice of using my original SR brakes or using a new, modern set of Chorus brakes (single pivot rear). A couple people urged me to remain pure and use the SRs, but I broke down and used the new brakes. I'm glad I did and there's no effing way in the world I would ever consider using the old SRs after that positive experience. The modulation on the strade bianche was perfect--saved my pancetta numerous times. The old ones are a joke in comparison, imho. YMMV. Edit: Note that I used the original levers and they worked perfectly. Tim

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a583/porterphoto1/file_zpsd03708bb.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/porterphoto1/media/file_zpsd03708bb.jpg.html)

[Mark McM]

I've got period SR brakes on a 1985 bike, new pads (Kool Stop) and they just don't seem to be great at slowing the bike down once I'm in high speed situations like a big decent. Nothing like the stopping power of my more modern brakes. Was this just the "way it was" or is something weird going on? Brakes are adjusted properly and my rims look good.

Campy SR brakes could stop just fine if you squeezed them hard enough. But they required a much harder squeeze to get the same brake force as compared to modern brakes. The primary design differences for this are:

Modern dual pivot brakes have a leverage ratio about 50% higher than older single pivot brakes (like the SR brakes). (Historical side note: Shimano did not invent the dual pivot brake, although they did popularize. Like many other inventions, Shimano waited until the original patents to expire before they released their version.)

Modern braking systems have less friction to overcome, reducing hand force required. This has been achieved in several ways, including better bearings and bushings, and using plastic lined brake cables and smooth stainless steel cables.

Modern calipers have weaker return springs, also reducing the required hand force. In addition to the reduced system friction, modern brake levers now have return force balancing springs, reducing the amount of spring force required to retract the calipers.


In addition to the overall decreased hand force required, modern cable routing has also improved braking ergonomics. "Aero" cable routing (in which the cable is routed through the lever body and along the handlebars instead of coming directly out of the top of the lever) has required a change in the location of the lever pivot. This has had the side affect of improving ergonomics and mechanical advantage when braking from the hoods.

[makmadoosel]

^Good post!

[dana_e]

I sold all mine.

I even had cobaltos, way cool

They were called "speed modulators". not brakes