Getting a Rock Climbing Gym to Appeal to Cyclists

[br995]

I recently picked up part time work at a newly opened rock climbing gym in Boston. We want to reach out to the local cycling community because we feel there's big crossover appeal in that both are individual-but-social sports, and both require physical fitness paired with a problem-solving mind.

If you've never been rock climbing, what could a climbing gym do to pique your interest?

If you're an experienced climber, what could a climbing gym do to get you to give them a shot?

In general, how could we increase our visibility among the cycling community?

We've discussed free day-passes in new member packets that go out from the local cycling advocacy group; creating limited-edition shirts whose proceeds would benefit a bike organization; and giving discounts in our retail shop to people who arrive by bike. We're looking for more ideas though from people who aren't already involved about what they would find enticing, engaging, and appreciable.

Oh, and we're installing indoor racks for 60 bikes in the next week or two.

[Lewis Moon]

I climbed hard for a BUNCH of years, bracketed on both ends by cycling.
IMHO: You can write off serious roadies. When I came to climbing from cycling I was weak as a kitten...at least my arms were. It was embarassing just how weak I was and I REALLY sucked for a long time. It took me probably a year to shift the muscle/weight from my legs to my upper body. Had I not been fleeing from an ex who was also a cyclist, I probably would have given up climbing and moved back.
You should have a lot more success with more casual cyclists. The gym is fun, and it's a great place to socialize. You need to get folks in the door, so free passes, clinics, fitness classes (we had a "stretch and retch" class that was great), etc. should be great. Hand dated free passes out at events. You may only get a few takers but once you get them in the door...

[MattTuck]

Which gym? I've climbed at MetroRock in Everett before.

Cyclists = strong/big legs
Climbers = strong/big arms


If you're going to target cyclists, I'd focus on it as a winter complement to cycling.

Improve balance
Hip flexor, range of motion and flexibility work
Stay in shape
Core/upper body work (few cyclists are below their potential because their upper bodies are too strong, but it may take some convincing. Except Lance, who lost all that upper body weight during chemo and came back to be a great champion ;) )

[jmoore]

I'm thinking of swimming this winter to balance out cycling. I'd consider rock climbing as I think it has much of the same things I miss while on the bike. I could use the core and upper body work.

A free pass would be great.

[Steve in SLO]

Ex-serious rock climber here. It sounds as if you're on the right track. In particular discounts and indoor racks will bring them in.
You might comp some LBS employees, particularly those shops specializing in mountain biking. That may help spread the word.

[MattTuck]

....particularly those shops specializing in mountain biking. That may help spread the word.

Steve may be on to something here. These guys might be more inclined to plan trips that include both mountain biking and bouldering.

[br995]

To address a couple of questions/ideas -

The gym is Brooklyn Boulders Somerville (http://bkbsomerville.com/).
We already have a partnership with Superb Bicycle (http://www.store.superbbicycle.com/) where their employees get in free, and our members get discounts there. It might be worth extending an industry discount on memberships or day passes to employees at other shops, though. I'll mention that.
Good point on the roadies vs non issue. I think mountain bikers are definitely a more likely group of climbers, so I'll suggest reaching out to NEMBA about doing something with them.

I know we have slightly discounted prices when MeetUp groups come to the gym, so I don't see why we couldn't do that for local cycling teams (especially collegiate).

We also offer a lot of fitness classes and your day pass gets you in to (just about) all of them for free, so we could try doing a regular 'cyclist yoga' or something similar that people could mix in with their climbing.

[Oregonic]

Another former climber here. I was out of climbing for a long time, until my wife and I won a 1 year family pass to the local gym during a silent auction after a local charity century ride.

Got us back in the gym, especially in the dark winter months, and was great cross training. They were even kind enough to let our membership "suspend" over the summer for 3 or 4 months during the summer when we were out enjoying the warmer weather. That was above and beyond, for sure!

[gasman]

I think you are on the right track. I still climb but not as much as I ride so I have to keep my upper body strong so I can climb and not be completely embarrassed . I do a lot of pull-ups but a gym is better and leading is even. better.
I hit the local rock gym in the winter occasionally but would rather climb outdoors, even in winter.

[velotel]

You need Maxn to chime in; he spends more time in the gym than on the bike. Going up rock is his real passion, riding is what he does in the in-between times. France has tons of rock gyms and some of them are huge, though all I've seen are photos of them. Wild stuff. Back when I was a climber I probably would have thought they were cool. Now I don't think about them at all, other than I'm sure they're cool.

[Ti Designs]

Two ideas for you:

First, I got into climbing when there were rides from Belmont over to Hammond Rocks. We're in the part of the season when it's really nice to ride during the day, but soon enough people are going to stop coming out 'cause it's too cold. The same thing happens with rock climbing, so find a ride leader, load up a trailer with ropes and harnesses and find a group of cyclists who are interested in climbing. Hammond Rocks is really easy to get to from Superbe...

Second, collegiate teams get new members in September, the race season starts in March, and it's New England. The key is retaining the people who show up at the start, which means keeping it fun (don't tell anyone else I said that...). Send me the discount structure for groups and teams and I'll see if I can't get a bunch of Harvard students in there.

[slidey]

When I came to climbing from cycling I was weak as a kitten...at least my arms were.



Cyclists = strong/big legs
Climbers = strong/big arms


To those who've been climbing a while...can you tell me if the above claims are true? I too held the same notion quite strongly prior to taking a fun Climbing class at my univ's gym. The instructor was adamant that if someone felt they needed strong arms during the course of a climb, then they were doing it wrong. I thought to myself, "Easy to say", and rolled my eyes but the reason I partially bought it was because I saw her climb! Her frame is nothing much to get excited about - sinewy frame of average height, positively in my camp (need to hold on to a tree during windy conditions), etc. In comparative terms, I was slightly taller, had bigger arms, and bigger quads than she did but while she is a bloody good climber, I suck. She kept iterating that it was all about engaging the core (one thing I can do), knowing when to engage the core (I'm learning, by doing, this even in cycling), and more than anything good technique. Can someone help shed some light on this, i.e. "big arms" -> fact/fiction?

[professerr]

To those who've been climbing a while...can you tell me if the above claims are true? I too held the same notion quite strongly prior to taking a fun Climbing class at my univ's gym. The instructor was adamant that if someone felt they needed strong arms during the course of a climb, then they were doing it wrong. I thought to myself, "Easy to say", and rolled my eyes but the reason I partially bought it was because I saw her climb! Her frame is nothing much to get excited about - sinewy frame of average height, positively in my camp (need to hold on to a tree during windy conditions), etc. In comparative terms, I was slightly taller, had bigger arms, and bigger quads than she did but while she is a bloody good climber, I suck. She kept iterating that it was all about engaging the core (one thing I can do), knowing when to engage the core (I'm learning, by doing, this even in cycling), and more than anything good technique. Can someone help shed some light on this, i.e. "big arms" -> fact/fiction?

I've climbed a fair amount, and sure others more advanced than I can chime in, but yes technique, core strength and also flexibility are key for climbing well and without those all the upper body strength in the world won't get you far. (BTW, those aspects of climbing are what I'd sell to cyclists -- we tend to have poor core strength and poor flexibility) Leg strength too is important, and good technique will take advantage of that. As for upper body strength, it seems to me that it is more about strength to weigh ratio and being strong in the right areas. Can you do 20 pull ups? Great. Can you do 20 pull ups with your finger tips. Really great. Are you 230 pounds and can bench press 300? Not so great.

[MattTuck]

Really great. Are you 230 pounds and can bench press 300? Not so great.

Right. I wasn't suggesting that climbers had upper bodies like body builders. Just that, because of the emphasis on hand/arm strength, climbers develop strength in those muscles more. Just like some cyclists get big calf muscles, and others don't, if you ride enough, you'll have strong calf muscles.

Being light overall is probably even more of an advantage in climbing than it is in cycling, since you're often just holding yourself up with the tips of your toes and fingers, and when making dynamic movements, it is requires much less force to accelerate your mass against gravity if you're lighter.

[br995]

Climbing is definitely about strength. But not in the way people think of it.

It's not uncommon for couples to come into our gym, the guy big and muscly and macho, and his SO much smaller and 'weaker.' And typically the guy will strut around knowing that he can crush any climb in the building - only to find out that the only reason he gets any higher than his wife/girlfriend is because he's willing to take more risks in the name of being macho.

It's not big muscles and brute strength that are important but, as others have said, specific muscle strength (fingers, hands, core) and technique. Climbing won't turn you into a top-heavy Clydesdale if you're not already a top-heavy Clydesdale. It will tone your arms and significantly improve your core strength.

One of the best climbers (possibly the best) at our gym in Brooklyn is a 12 year old girl (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/Archetypes-Climber-Ashima-Shiraishi.html). She is climbing problems that the best 20-30yo male climbers in our gym with 10+ years of experience would struggle on.

And cyclists are already at something of an advantage in that climbing is a lot more about your legs than you think. We use our legs all the time, so they're already strong, and something that we're conscious of - and that's a big plus when you're trying to lift your body weight up a 60 foot wall.

Finally, weight definitely is key. Like climbing in cycling, the climbers with a lower weight-to-strength ratio are going to be better climbers on the wall. I've been climbing regularly (2+ times/week) with a partner who, when we started last September, was climbing at the same level at me. He is now possibly climbing worse than he was then, while I'm climbing 3-4 grades better. The reason? He gained 20+ pounds since then, and I haven't.

[rice rocket]

I think you'd have more luck spamming the local spinning classes. You'd be casting your net over more "fitness oriented" people rather than diehard cyclists. Cyclists are people who are so deep into the sport that they'd rather have chicken arms than look like a normal human being. :p

[slidey]

Yeah, I get that bit now. Also, I wasn't knocking you/Lewis Moon for the quotes. I only quoted conveniently since I've heard similar claims from lots of people, including buying into it myself.

Right. I wasn't suggesting that climbers had upper bodies like body builders.

Thanks everyone for the clarifications. The weight is not an issue for me, but yeah maybe next time I decide to go out rock climbing I can pay a lot more attn to technique. I've tried just relying on technique in the past only to find myself at a new point on the wall, from where I am clueless what do do next, and then soon enough the arms ache...and then "Heads Up!".

[professerr]

One of the best climbers (possibly the best) at our gym in Brooklyn is a 12 year old girl (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/Archetypes-Climber-Ashima-Shiraishi.html).

One of the best climbers I climbed with was a woman who weighed about 90 pounds and had incredibly thin, delicate bones from her toes to her fingers. She could hang on the tiniest of holds seemingly indefinitely but was not physically strong at all. Neither is a spider.

[1centaur]

Suggested slogan to attract cyclists:

Balance Your Body

A + V = H

[dustyrider]

Just got back into climbing after years of enjoying it. The bikes do such a great job of competing for my attention, especially this time of year, but in a few months I'll be at the wall more. Some kind of winter package deal would be sweet, does your gym have room for some spin bikes?

Your ideas are solid so far, getting the bikes indoors awesome idea! places to change and shower are a huge plus. Group rides ending at the gym with tasty beverages and attractive climbers doing their thang could be a suttle marketing scheme. I think climbing is a much more social sport than cycling, so you've got sell that element. The crossover is obviouse once you get on the wall. Strong core, aerobic conditioning, flexibility, and balance are all pluses for cyclist and climbers. Certainly the MTB mentality is the one I think of when I think of climbers...

Have fun with your endeavor!

[bironi]

No climbing experience, but would like to say this is a thoughtful thread. We need more of these. Carry on.

[gasman]

One additional thought you've already had I'm sure is to have lots of climbs in the 5.6-5.9 range so that new-to-climbing riders can get up something and still be challenged.
If it's too easy they may get bored. Higher end climbs just aren't going to be in their realm yet though the gym supports climbers in the 5.10-5.12 range and I'm sure you have kick ass boulder problems. Spend time teaching technique and show others the joy of moving over stone and you will hook a lot of people.

You don't need big guns to climb well. Balance, technique and a good strength to weight ratio is what all good climbers have in common. Lynn Hill was the first person to free the Nose of El Capitan and she's about 5'3" and 100 lbs.
Guys with really big guns don't usually make good climbers.

[pbarry]

You're on the right track, and good on you for being proactive in seeking out new members. As others have said, the MTB crowd is a good target. Core fitness gyms might be another interest group worth pursuing. See if one will work out a dual membership with your gym. Perfect fit there.

Being from these parts, I've done some hard routes, but it never captured me the way cycling did. Several hard core climbers I know got into road biking in their 40's and rarely climb anymore. The transition to cycling seemed like a natural progression for those climbers, maybe age driven? The road biking-to-climbing crossover is a tough one, JMO.

Without a doubt, sport climbing has a lot to do with strength to weight ratio. Many body types do well tho. The mental challenge is the hardest part; doesn't matter how fit or flexible you are, the mind is the biggest factor/muscle. Ex GF was one of the best free climbers in the 80's and 90's. She's all of 105 lbs., and sees the way up any wall or problem intuitively, like a sculptor seeing a form in a slab of stone, when many just see a big rock and no way up.

Sounds like your gym will be a sure success. :hello:

[jvp]

I started rock climbing around 1980, mostly trad climbing then w/ some bouldering of course. Late 80s some sport climbing at the New River Gorge as well. Mid / late 90s I pretty much only bouldered, alot, like every weekend. We were developing new areas here in NC (Moore's Wall, Asheboro). Around then climbing walls started to pop up, and I started setting for them in exchange for free climbing use of the gym. Around ~2000 I got into cycling, and that developed into interest in vintage steel road bikes. I have found that cycling and climbing complement each other, but generally not on the same day. Trying to climb hard after a long hot ride is pretty much useless (to me anyway). Riding after climbing works out better, or just alternate days with some rest days as well. If I were trying to get more cyclists into the rock gym I would focus on both the mtn. bikers and the trendy urban cyclists, not sure if dedicated roadies would get into it too much. Maybe give out some free day passes at strategic locations (shops, brew pubs, etc.) and then word of mouth might help afterward?

[oldpotatoe]

I recently picked up part time work at a newly opened rock climbing gym in Boston. We want to reach out to the local cycling community because we feel there's big crossover appeal in that both are individual-but-social sports, and both require physical fitness paired with a problem-solving mind.

If you've never been rock climbing, what could a climbing gym do to pique your interest?

If you're an experienced climber, what could a climbing gym do to get you to give them a shot?

In general, how could we increase our visibility among the cycling community?

We've discussed free day-passes in new member packets that go out from the local cycling advocacy group; creating limited-edition shirts whose proceeds would benefit a bike organization; and giving discounts in our retail shop to people who arrive by bike. We're looking for more ideas though from people who aren't already involved about what they would find enticing, engaging, and appreciable.

Oh, and we're installing indoor racks for 60 bikes in the next week or two.

Big legs, little arms..is there really cross over?

[br995]

Thanks for all the feedback; it's really appreciated.

We do already have showers with complimentary towels and soap/body wash. We also have a sauna in both the men's and women's locker room.

A lot of my and your suggestions keep coming back to day passes. I think they're a great way to get people to come check out our gym (it really is a very, very cool space (http://somervillebeat.com/features/3146/indoor-rock-climbing-gym-comes-to-somerville/)) without a commitment or fear of spending money on an experience they won't enjoy. And since our costs are basically sunk (the gym is open and staffed whether or not people are climbing) it doesn't really cost us much to do so. But if we can get them hooked, then everyone benefits. I just need to convince the Exec team of this....

Having rides start from and end at the gym is a great idea. We have lockers and showers, and people could climb or use the weight room before (or after) their ride, and then come back and clean up - all while leaving their stuff locked up. It's also a pretty convenient location for anyone in Cambridge/Somerville.

A friend suggested sponsoring local teams or cycling events, which I think is also an excellent idea. It wouldn't be hard to sponsor a team by giving the members of the team free membership to the gym, and it would get our name out into the bike community as a cycling-friendly company.

Biker-specific winter membership packages are also a really good idea. I got back into cycling 4 years ago as a way to keep active (and not go stir-crazy) during the winter, but always dropped it come Spring because I wanted to spend my weekends on the bike. And at the time I was able to find 3 month groupons which were perfect for December-February when the weather was the worst. I know some gyms in the area offer semester or academic year memberships to students; I don't see why we couldn't offer a Winter Cyclist membership.

Thanks again for all the input. We're really trying to actively engage the local community, as well as all the like-minded sub-communities within the MetroBoston area. Obviously cycling is my main passion so I'm really pumped to get bikers in the door, but we've also made deals with a local Crossfit gym on memberships at the other gym if you're already a member of one, and have a co-working space and are hosting HackFit (https://hackfitboston2013.eventbrite.com/) tomorrow and Saturday.

[maxn]

Rehashing at this point, but…
Technique gets you far, but so does strength:weight (like in cycling up hills). You want powerful arms, not big arms. As Matt said, I think being light is the biggest advantage, and those of you (myself included of course) who have seen 90 pound thirteen year olds walk up your projects in flip flops can corroborate that! But climbing is a complex sport, and involves a lot of things: technique, keeping calm, reading routes, power, endurance, masochism.

The bottom line for me is that they do complement each other. I find that if I cycle too much, if there is such a thing, my cycling starts to suffer more than if I climb too much (no such thing) though. I know a lot of other serious climbers that cycle and we all make it work.

If you want a model for climbing gyms attracting cyclists, you might want to check out Touchstone Climbing in northern CA, which runs gyms all over the bay area. They have a club (team?) and organize rides etc. Cycling is a very visible part of their offerings.

[maxn]

Back when I was a climber I probably would have thought they were cool. Now I don't think about them at all, other than I'm sure they're cool.
We gotta get you back on the rock.

Velotel, by the way, is one of those old school sandbaggers that rated routes he put up 5.9 that are actually 10+ or possibly 11-. :banana:

[maxn]

I thought this thread could use some photos

[br995]

If we're posting pictures, I've got one of me coming off a climb:

http://i.imgur.com/y6QJXOCl.jpg (http://imgur.com/y6QJXOC)
(click to enlarge; the blue is the route I took up)

[jeffreng58]

Climbing is a top notch unconventional workout for cyclists, swimmers, and triathletes. Climbing is a core exercise rather than an upper body workout.
Core strength is utterly important in cycling. With a solid core, cycling would expend less amount of energy to stabilize the body.
Maintaining core strength reduces back problems as well.:bike:

[jeffreng58]

One of the best climbers (possibly the best) at our gym in Brooklyn is a 12 year old girl (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/Archetypes-Climber-Ashima-Shiraishi.html). She is climbing problems that the best 20-30yo male climbers in our gym with 10+ years of experience would struggle on.

Brooklyn Boulders???
I never knew she climbed there. Shes a beast. I saw a short video of her on the tube and she is like a spider monkey