Ben Serotta's New Blog

[RedRider]

http://benserotta.com/

[ctcyclistbob]

The blog is well written, and it's good to read that he's formulating plans to survive and hopefully thrive.

Thanks for posting the link.

[dekindy]

http://benserotta.com/

I wonder why now that he is turning to social media when he could not do it before. Strange. This should have been his public comment instead of trashing the folks that were trying to save Serotta.

[Chris]

He should start a forum on his site.

[Joachim]

Consultancy? Hmm... I do like the first two ideas.

[slidey]

+1

That bit gave me quite a good laugh.

Consultancy? Hmm... I do like the first two ideas.

[rnhood]

Yea, that is humorous. Ben isn't much different than many of the 50-something crowd that have been dumped by their organization. They still think they know the best way to do things.

Ben has always had the ability to write well, just that the last few tumultuous years left little time for writing.....I suspect. But its nice to see him writing again and I hope it continues. As far as his long term prospects, I think he will focus more on the "fit" avenue and less on frame making. The frame making industry is very competitive now.

[pro12tc]

Yea, that is humorous. Ben isn't much different than many of the 50-something crowd that have been dumped by their organization. They still think they know the best way to do things.



Sometimes they do.

[#campyuserftw]

I wish him well. Just like on the bike...you fall down...you get back up.

[tiretrax]

Yea, that is humorous. Ben isn't much different than many of the 50-something crowd that have been dumped by their organization. They still think they know the best way to do things.

Ben has always had the ability to write well, just that the last few tumultuous years left little time for writing.....I suspect. But its nice to see him writing again and I hope it continues. As far as his long term prospects, I think he will focus more on the "fit" avenue and less on frame making. The frame making industry is very competitive now.

If you are so smart now, just imagine how much smarter you'll be when you're 50. Bear in mind that there were a large number of forces working against him, such as not having complete control of the company, and some poor decision making, especially the ill fated merger.

[Tin Turtle]

As I approach the year in question I do find it amusing that my experiences have taught me one thing for sure - bad business decisions have nothing to do with age.

[Chris]

If you are so smart now, just imagine how much smarter you'll be when you're 50. Bear in mind that there were a large number of forces working against him, such as not having complete control of the company, and some poor decision making, especially the ill fated merger.

Dude...the guy ran the company into the ground on three separate occassions. It just so happens that with this bail out, the company who bought Serotta (this time) decided they just wanted the name. If you want to know how to build a frame, Ben would be a great choice, if you want to know how to be successful in business and you hire Ben to mentor you, then I am afraid you didn't do your due diligence.

[malcolm]

Dude...the guy ran the company into the ground on three separate occassions. It just so happens that with this bail out, the company who bought Serotta (this time) decided they just wanted the name. If you want to know how to build a frame, Ben would be a great choice, if you want to know how to be successful in business and you hire Ben to mentor you, then I am afraid you didn't do your due diligence.

There are a bunch of bike businesses that didn't last anywhere near as long as he did. I don't have a dog in the hunt but often times things are not as simple as they seem and very bright people do sometimes fail. Often times failure is the greatest educator.

[Chris]

Often times failure is the greatest educator.

Agreed. It's important to learn from the education.

[Richard]

Isn't the expression "those that can...do; those that can't...teach; those that can't do either...consult?"

[TimD]

Yea, that is humorous. Ben isn't much different than many of the 50-something crowd that have been dumped by their organization. They still think they know the best way to do things.


Wow. Enjoy it while you can, pal.

[dbrk]

This may not be a popular view. This blog is a disappointing rehearsal of many of the same ideas that contributed to the failure of the brand. Let me name just one. The utter crap about bike fit "science": Ben, listen up, set your saddle height, put your knee in a comfortable place, now, can you reach the bars? The bike fits. If it doesn't fit then get fit. You'll feel better and the bikes won't look so damn stupid. Check out a Serotta geos chart circa 1992. LIKE THAT. But ··· do I know? I know enough not to have purchased one of these bikes for the last decade.

[Benny Profane]

This may not be a popular view. This blog is a disappointing rehearsal of many of the same ideas that contributed to the failure of the brand. Let me name just one. The utter crap about bike fit "science": Ben, listen up, set your saddle height, put your knee in a comfortable place, now, can you reach the bars? The bike fits. If it doesn't fit then get fit. You'll feel better and the bikes won't look so damn stupid. Check out a Serotta geos chart circa 1992. LIKE THAT. But ··· do I know? I know enough not to have purchased one of these bikes for the last decade.

How's your back feel after 60 miles?

[R2D2]

This may not be a popular view. This blog is a disappointing rehearsal of many of the same ideas that contributed to the failure of the brand. Let me name just one. The utter crap about bike fit "science": Ben, listen up, set your saddle height, put your knee in a comfortable place, now, can you reach the bars? The bike fits. If it doesn't fit then get fit. You'll feel better and the bikes won't look so damn stupid. Check out a Serotta geos chart circa 1992. LIKE THAT. But ··· do I know? I know enough not to have purchased one of these bikes for the last decade.

+1
It's not that hard.

[CNY rider]

Isn't the expression "those that can...do; those that can't...teach; those that can't do either...consult?"

And the medical education corollary: "those that can...do; those that can't...teach; those that can't do either...run residency programs."

I like and admire Ben.
I wish him only the best.
But if I were going to spend serious coin to hire someone to help me with business advice I would give pause after seeing his recent history.

[Chris]

How's your back feel after 60 miles?

You might want to survey the landscape and get to know some of the guys who have been around awhile before you go and make yourself look stupid (again). Just sayin'.

[54ny77]

Big Mig went quietly into the sunset, dignity left intact. There's a lesson there somewhere.

Then again, Dick Fuld's consulting.

[Benny Profane]

You might want to survey the landscape and get to know some of the guys who have been around awhile before you go and make yourself look stupid (again). Just sayin'.

oh man, you gotta explain that one.

[akelman]

oh man, you gotta explain that one.

He probably meant that dbrk has his fit dialed and knows more about custom builders than most folks ever will.

[Benny Profane]

He probably meant that dbrk has his fit dialed and knows more about custom builders than most folks ever will.

No, I meant the stupid part.

you only need one bike fitting, really. I know about that. I didn't start riding yesterday. But it sounded like this dbrk fellow was being a bit cavalier about bike fit. Like it matters if he's been on the internet a long time.

[akelman]

At the risk of speaking for someone else, I suspect he thought it was a bit silly to see someone questioning dbrk's knowledge of fit. But I well might be off base. Either way, welcome to the forum. Your Strong is beautiful.

[akelman]

you only need one bike fitting, really. I know about that. I didn't start riding yesterday. But it sounded like this dbrk fellow was being a bit cavalier about bike fit. Like it matters if he's been on the internet a long time.

I see that you added this bit after I posted my last comment, so let me just say that I have no idea when you started riding and don't much care. The point above was that dbrk's claim to authority -- such as it is -- on the subject of custom fitting comes not from time spent on the internet but from having owned and ridden a vast array of beautiful bikes.

All of that said, I truly have no dog in this fight. I'm a big believer in the idea that people should ride whatever they want to ride, including custom Serottas (or other brands) with horribly tortured geometry. It makes me no nevermind.

[572cv]

Mr dbrk is perhaps a young man, with great joints.... probably has no problems with his feet either.

When I got a serious fit, it improved my power output by something in the neighborhood of 5-10% and eliminated the knee issues I was having. It made distance cycling fun again.

But I'm a geezer, way over 50, whatta I know.

[Benny Profane]

Yeah, I know. And my back stopped hurting, too.

So, where's the guy who called me stupid?

[Chris]

Douglas (dbrk) who doesn't need me to speak for him, but he's a friend so I called you out on your challenge to him, has been on this forum from the beginning. He's had plenty to do with bike industry, the design of new bike models and is well respected in the industry. AND he's an authority on and well-respected teacher of yoga in America. So...in answer to why I thought your comment was stupid...I'm sure his back is fine. Had you researched his posts before you made your what I am actually sure was a knee jerk and non-malicious comment, the comment itself might not have been so silly.

Now as for the offense you seem to have taken, if you want to have a cyber fight, I'll meet you at the cyber bike rack after school.

[Benny Profane]

Just don't go calling people stupid.

Okie.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . take a deep breath and count to ten.

Now, doesn't that feel better? Far better than locking the thread.

BBD

[Chris]

Okie.

Ha :) It's hard to outrun your heritage...

Technically, I just said your comment made you look stupid. I can't imagine coming to a full-assessment based on one comment. I'll keep an eye on your posts and get back to you on that.

[Chris]

. . . take a deep breath and count to ten.

Now, doesn't that feel better? Far better than locking the thread.

BBD

Is someone really upset here?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . but the thread seemed to me to be getting a bit acrimonious and merited a word.

BBD

[Bruce K]

Also seems to have drifted WAY off the original topic of the blog(s) ....

BK

[Benny Profane]

You know, I'm sorry. Heh. New here. Rude of me. But, I gotta say something. In my twenty fives years of riding around on a bicycle, I run into a type every now and then, who, it seems, define themselves from said riding of bike. It's, like, the way they, heh, measure themselves against others, and feel that they can be nasty and rude to others because they do it "better". You know, riding a bike. A stupid bike. When I meet one of these people, I find it best just to do a 180 and go on with my life. As I will now.

It's only riding a bicycle. jeez.

[54ny77]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/ThePaceline.png (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/jpmz06/media/Bike/ThePaceline.png.html)

[Chris]

You know, I'm sorry. Heh. New here. Rude of me. But, I gotta say something. In my twenty fives years of riding around on a bicycle, I run into a type every now and then, who, it seems, define themselves from said riding of bike. It's, like, the way they, heh, measure themselves against others, and feel that they can be nasty and rude to others because they do it "better". You know, riding a bike. A stupid bike. When I meet one of these people, I find it best just to do a 180 and go on with my life. As I will now.

It's only riding a bicycle. jeez.

I completely agree. I just don't think Douglas is that guy. In fact, he's been the antithesis of that through the years. Welcoming of everyone and never afraid to go a little slower or sit a little more upright. I truly apologize if my snarky reply led to any acrimony. I didn't think it would be taken as anything other than tongue in cheek.

FWIW, I think that Douglas has a valid point that fitting has become this cottage industry where these fitters are making a lot of $ on people who don't necessarily need anything more than the bike fit that most quality shops used to do as a courtesy for their clients. I get that knowledge has a value and if on this day and age of interweb competition there may be money to be made there, it seems that the machines that look like auto alignment set ups are a little overkill compared to a conversation and the trained eye of a good shop guy. Just my opinion. Again, sorry for creating an issue.

[charliedid]

Bike fitting is the new black.

[fiamme red]

At the risk of speaking for someone else, I suspect he (Benny Profane) thought it was a bit silly to see someone questioning Ben Serotta's knowledge of fit. But I well might be off base.The point above was that Ben Serotta's claim to authority -- such as it is -- on the subject of custom fitting comes not from time spent on the internet but from having built and designed a vast array of beautiful bikes.Fixed it for you. :)

[false_Aest]

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z113/jpmz06/Bike/ThePaceline.png (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/jpmz06/media/Bike/ThePaceline.png.html)


so what you're saying is that black people are under-represented here as well?

[akelman]

Fixed it for you. :)

Absolutely fair. I wasn't taking sides. As I said above, I couldn't care less about the geometry of other people's bikes. I mean, I need a bit more head tube than is "proper," strictly speaking, so I'm not one to throw stones.

[54ny77]

No, but there is, however, a clear lack of Uzbekistan transgender albinos.

so what you're saying is that black people are under-represented here as well?

[Llewellyn]

TBH, to me the blog entry sounded a bit like some corporate puff piece written by a spin doctor

[William]

No, but there is, however, a clear lack of Uzbekistan transgender albinos.

I've been outed!:crap:









;);):D:D
William

[fiamme red]

http://benserotta.com/Good to see that Captain Dondo and Maynard Hershon are still around. I enjoyed reading their columns years ago.

[regularguy412]

I'm just glad to see Mr. Brooks posting again, albeit, infrequently.

Mike in AR:beer:

[flydhest]

I heart dbrk

[e-RICHIE]

Not sure, but the thread seemed to me to be getting a bit acrimonious and merited a word.

BBD

Agreed.

And I am relieved you still recognize acrimony when you see it.

[Louis]

Agreed.

And I am relieved you still recognize acrimony when you see it.

e-RICHIE giveth and e-RICHIE taketh away...

[Len J]

Irony is.....ironic.

Len

[#campyuserftw]

Acrimoney is the new acrimony, atmo. :cool:

Best of luck to Big Ben, and a nice way to kick-off his blog, which seemed sincere, and a device for inspiration. There's only a few ways to leap in real life, Ben is finding his own, new fit, and his legs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZaYEniPaJg

:beer:

[Jack Brunk]

Enough of Ben already. This soap opera is should be put to sleep.

[dekindy]

TBH, to me the blog entry sounded a bit like some corporate puff piece written by a spin doctor

That was my inclination also but did not want to start anything. Which is the real Ben Serotta?

[fuzzalow]

I wish Ben well as much for nostalgia as for hope against hope that this time there is a Hollywood happy ending.

Sure, I do not expect him to reveal his intentions and plans on his new blog but what I read was a handful of cooking spaghetti thrown against the wall. Pardon the mixed metaphor but most of it read as half-baked.

For example, this is the inventor of the Serotta Size cycle but I was never aware of an actual fitting methodology that went along with how Ben wanted that Sizing cycle to be used. What emerged instead was some genuine aberrations of custom bikes for owners that were never introduced to the existence or development of a skill set useful for the rider they might someday wish to become. Ben's supposed fit expertise was never put into the field to his client's benefit. Maybe this time it will be different.

[oldpotatoe]

How's your back feel after 60 miles?

Mine feels great...never had a fit..no issues, no soreness, no joint problems in these 62 yr old legs. Flat stem(quill).

Fitting is an art, not a science with only 1 real, small 'c' constant(kops) and even that one is just a guide. My fit guy does fits all the time w/o computers, 'points in space', video cameras. Too many 'fits' are really 'perscriptions' for a certain bike frame, a selling tool, not a comfort on the bike, tool.

I understand ben and bill..I think they are still reeling and pissed about being unceremoniously canned from the company they were running.

So I guess the natural thing is to make a website and blog that helps describe and define who they are and to whine a bit..that's OK, if ya don't like the blog, don't read it.

I think ben's forte is in frame building but he may see himself too 'past it' to do that. But when the ship runs aground, even if you are in your stateroom, you are still responsible.

[Ti Designs]

Mine feels great...never had a fit..no issues, no soreness, no joint problems in these 62 yr old legs. Flat stem(quill).

Sample size = 1, and your performance expectations are pretty low. Hardly the example I would base all bike fittings on...

Fitting is an art, not a science with only 1 real, small 'c' constant(kops) and even that one is just a guide.

Try looking past yourself for a second. There are people out there who want to ride and want to reach their own cycling goals, but there are problems. A good fitter needs to understand the cause of the problem before a solution can be found. Ben's interest in fit comes from wanting to produce the best combination of rider and bike. No other part of the medical industry understands the interface between rider and bike, so if there are problems it falls on fitters to solve them. I don't consider "don't ride your bike" to be a solution

[oldpotatoe]

Sample size = 1, and your performance expectations are pretty low. Hardly the example I would base all bike fittings on...



Try looking past yourself for a second. There are people out there who want to ride and want to reach their own cycling goals, but there are problems. A good fitter needs to understand the cause of the problem before a solution can be found. Ben's interest in fit comes from wanting to produce the best combination of rider and bike. No other part of the medical industry understands the interface between rider and bike, so if there are problems it falls on fitters to solve them. I don't consider "don't ride your bike" to be a solution

For somebody you don't know, you sure seem to think you 'know me', pretty well...you don't.

The OP was about the blog, and my opinion on bike fit. Not the grand concept of bike fitting nor the concept of reaching for your abolute limits whilst riding a toy on Sundays. You came close when you talked about playing a piano, ya know for fun? Did ya post that on the piano forum and then get slammed for that because you weren't living up to your potential??

Here we go again....I'll just send you all the posts I write so you can more easily comment on them.

Said something about the cruise ship that went aground...comments?? Not serious enough?

[Ti Designs]

Here we go again....I'll just send you all the posts I write so you can more easily comment on them.

This has nothing to do with you 'cept that you were the last one to post a "I've never needed a fitting, so fitters are useless" comment.

[oldpotatoe]

This has nothing to do with you 'cept that you were the last one to post a "I've never needed a fitting, so fitters are useless" comment.

I said, "Mine feels great...never had a fit..no issues, no soreness, no joint problems in these 62 yr old legs. Flat stem(quill)."

If you are going to "quote", at least do it accurately.

So how about the cruise ship......or Challenge tires.....crank issues? Tax code and law?

Please.

[Ti Designs]

Very well...

The OP was about the blog, and my opinion on bike fit.

I'm guessing this is just because you don't proof read when you're angry, but the OP wasn't about your opinion on bike fit.



I'll stay out of Campy threads if you stay out of technique and fitting threads - everybody else will be happy about this.

[oldpotatoe]

Very well...



I'm guessing this is just because you don't proof read when you're angry, but the OP wasn't about your opinion on bike fit.

Last time I'll answer you directly, life's too short. Not angry, sitting at my computer in my jammies, talking about toys...you've not seen me angry.

I only can be really angry at one person at a time, and that's my thieving former biz partner.

[William]

Let's keep it on topic folks....http://www.mersenneforum.org/images/smilies/extra/lock.gif







William

[Chris]

Whoa fellas, I make one joke about the new guy looking stupid and now society is falling apart. I don't think anyone said fitters are useless. To the contrary. I think everyone on here believes that the fit is the most important element. I think the debate exists within the context of...Can the fit be obtained through the "art" of one guy and a plumb bob or do you need 3D imagery and a rotating platform? I personally think that 99.9999% of the problems can best be solved through the trained fitter. All the other stuff, in my lowly opinion, does more to justify an industry (fitting equipment, not fitting).

Not an N of 1, but we have a local shop here that has the new Guru fit device. The fit is something like $350.00 and once you are done it provides you with a recommendation for a bike from the database of the Dorel company's bikes or something or other. Works great as a selling tool. Everyone I know who has gone has been satsified with getting their fit on their current race bike (we can get into the psychology of spending that kind of money on being fit and then not being satisfied if you want), but what I found interesting is that to a man who I know who has been fit on the device, each and every one has had their saddle raised and pushed forward and their bars lowered. I would expect a more individualized approach for $350 rather than forcing everyone into a philosophical rotation of the triangle. This is where the individual fitter who is capable of thinking outside of an algorythm is far more valuable to me than a $10,000 fitting computer or formula.

My n of 1 experience is that the best fit advice I ever got was from e-richie when he responded to my question about a rule of thumb fit question with the Zen koan response of "water finds it's own level." Too simple to charge for but more beneficial to my personal fit dilemma at the time than KOPS. YMMV.

[DreaminJohn]

Mine feels great...never had a fit..no issues, no soreness, no joint problems in these 62 yr old legs. Flat stem(quill).

Fitting is an art, not a science with only 1 real, small 'c' constant(kops) and even that one is just a guide. My fit guy does fits all the time w/o computers, 'points in space', video cameras. Too many 'fits' are really 'perscriptions' for a certain bike frame, a selling tool, not a comfort on the bike, tool.

I understand ben and bill..I think they are still reeling and pissed about being unceremoniously canned from the company they were running.

So I guess the natural thing is to make a website and blog that helps describe and define who they are and to whine a bit..that's OK, if ya don't like the blog, don't read it.

I think ben's forte is in frame building but he may see himself too 'past it' to do that. But when the ship runs aground, even if you are in your stateroom, you are still responsible.


Hey Mods - are you SURE we can't have a "Like" button?

[regularguy412]

Hey Mods - are you SURE we can't have a "Like" button?

I'm not a Mod, but I think we at least "do" have a Dislike button. It's called 'Ignore'. Haven't used mine in a while, not since the switch to Paceline naming, but as I recall, you go into the person's profile and click 'ignore'.

It works really well ! :)

Mike in AR:beer:

[Keith A]

Hey Mods - are you SURE we can't have a "Like" button?Let me check on this. It may require upgrading to the latest vBulletin which is on my radar.

[DreaminJohn]

Awesome customer service, as usual. While I was half-joking, I think this is great.

Your efforts are much appreciated, Keith.

[PQJ]

I've been asking for a 'like' button for a while. I like to think it'll be much-liked. I'm liking the fact that the like button initiative is likely to see some positive momentum. In other words, me likey.

Separately, and at the risk of sounding redundant, when you scamps get together, you're worse than a sewing circle.*



* Credit to Mrs. Mia Wallace for that one.

[jeo99]

Have not been on this "General Discussion" for quite a while. Now I see why.
:butt:

[victoryfactory]

Let me check on this. It may require upgrading to the latest vBulletin which is on my radar.






VictoryFactory Likes this

[William]

Let me check on this. It may require upgrading to the latest vBulletin which is on my radar.


http://allfacebook.com/files/2010/04/new-like-button.jpg








William

[93legendti]

Have not been on this "General Discussion" for quite a while. Now I see why.
:butt:

Agree. Not sure why those still feeling scorned must use seemingly every Serotta thread to get their pound of flesh.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Agree. Not sure why those still feeling scorned must use seemingly every Serotta thread to get their pound of flesh.

. . . the sound of grinding axes is deafening.

Ben will succeed--or not. Let's move on.

BTW, Campy is way, WAY superior to Shimano or SRAM . . .

:)

BBD

[Keith A]

No way...Suntour is the BEST :eek:

[BumbleBeeDave]

SACHS-Huret is far superior!

Naaah . . . sounds acrimonious. :rolleyes:

[tv_vt]

Well, this thread has had quite the ride. Quite entertaining. I'd love to see a sitcom with all of you characters (yeah, I count myself in that group...) standing around with our drinks arguing about just about anything, up one side and down the other. Would make for a good youtube video.

Cheers to all of you. Nice to see some well respected names from yesterday drop by.

[DukeHorn]

Frankly, I don't know anybody's "background" here, but there's a tiny bit of irony of someone who is a "well-respected" teacher of yoga telling the rest of us that "fit" is easy. Don't ya think??

The mockery of the Serotta "fit" because they catered to older guys (with a bit more saved money) and a lot more injuries (2 torn ACLs in my case) is tiresome.

[rounder]

Love Paceline and all of the threads. But get really upset with all of the personal attacks.

Coors Lite bikes inspired me to go for a Serotta. Len Pettyjohn told me...its a SerOtta. Then he introduced me to the team.

I first started posting to the Serotta forum because I had gotten a new (ebay) Serotta frame and was trying to figure out what to do with it. Already had a Serotta that I had been riding for years. Anyway...read the threads and learned from the posters.

Ben and his company had built lots of great bikes. The online Serotta forum was built around that. But every time he occasionally attempted to post anything, he was slammed. I understand that not everyone subscribed to his philosophy. But, if you are hanging out at his forum, then why slam him when he is just making a post.

Anyway, time moves on and we are now at the Paceline forum. Redrider made a great post about a Ben thread. Ben was immediately slammed, even though he is just a guy who is still trying to build good bikes, and stay in business.

Lots of people post here, including some I really respect. Ti Designs who coaches the Harvard ladies team and does bike fittings (among other stuff for a living) claims he is disrespected. Old Potatoe, who runs an awesome shop in Boulder and knows all campy also feels disrespected.

Man...we should all get along. Anyway...end of rant.

[Louis]

Love Paceline and all of the threads. But get really upset with all of the personal attacks.

Welcome to the Internet.

It (by that I mean "social media") can and does drive some to suicide, but that's not going to cause anyone to change anything, so I doubt a few personal attacks or hurt feelings here will either.

I think we avoid most of the really bad stuff around here, but it's a tough medium to police to everyone's satisfaction, and unless the Mods take draconian measures that would drive X% of the forum away, you have to live with it (or put all the people you consider nasty on your ignore list).

[fuzzalow]

I don't currently read many bike forums beyond Paceline but each venue is moderated to a flavor and editorial bent that is not hard to figure out by skimming through the posts. Paceline is as congenial and as sophisticated as any forum on the web. And the vitality and purchasing power of its members makes Paceline's Classified listings section one of the most coveted on the web.

I don't respond in a knee-jerk fashion in interpreting contrary opinions and views that disagree with my own as personal attacks. Oft times when somebody hasn't anything lucid or sane to retort with, they will walk right up to the line with a personal dig. Sometimes they even go over the line. NBD, just don't make it a habit.

Disagreements and contrary points of view can make for interesting conversations. If a member is offended or close-minded to these types of exchanges, don't click on the thread or read it. Or still respond in a huff anyway. Or say something intelligent, or incoherent in response. This is a gathering of all types and all levels; something for everybody.

Or as suggested, use the Ignore function - it is the Soma for web interactions.

[oldpotatoe]

Love Paceline and all of the threads. But get really upset with all of the personal attacks.

Coors Lite bikes inspired me to go for a Serotta. Len Pettyjohn told me...its a SerOtta. Then he introduced me to the team.

I first started posting to the Serotta forum because I had gotten a new (ebay) Serotta frame and was trying to figure out what to do with it. Already had a Serotta that I had been riding for years. Anyway...read the threads and learned from the posters.

Ben and his company had built lots of great bikes. The online Serotta forum was built around that. But every time he occasionally attempted to post anything, he was slammed. I understand that not everyone subscribed to his philosophy. But, if you are hanging out at his forum, then why slam him when he is just making a post.

Anyway, time moves on and we are now at the Paceline forum. Redrider made a great post about a Ben thread. Ben was immediately slammed, even though he is just a guy who is still trying to build good bikes, and stay in business.

Lots of people post here, including some I really respect. Ti Designs who coaches the Harvard ladies team and does bike fittings (among other stuff for a living) claims he is disrespected. Old Potatoe, who runs an awesome shop in Boulder and knows all campy also feels disrespected.

Man...we should all get along. Anyway...end of rant.

I don't feel disrespected at all. It's a discussion about 'bikes', there are more important things to get sweated up over, MUCH more important than a 'bicycle'.

TiDesigns has his own way of looking at things 'bike', and his own way of saying it...so it goes. So do I..but about 'bikes' afterall, not about floods or shootings or chemical weapons..bikes.

[FlashUNC]

Frankly, I don't know anybody's "background" here, but there's a tiny bit of irony of someone who is a "well-respected" teacher of yoga telling the rest of us that "fit" is easy. Don't ya think??

The mockery of the Serotta "fit" because they catered to older guys (with a bit more saved money) and a lot more injuries (2 torn ACLs in my case) is tiresome.

The one time I think folks went over the line was when Serotta posted photos of I think an 80-year old who just got a custom frame that happened to be a mixte road, given some step-over clearance issues the guy had.

He (and Serotta) got ripped a new one. Never mind I'll be lucky to make it to 80, much less still be able to ride...

[jr59]

I don't feel disrespected at all. It's a discussion about 'bikes', there are more important things to get sweated up over, MUCH more important than a 'bicycle'.

TiDesigns has his own way of looking at things 'bike', and his own way of saying it...so it goes. So do I..but about 'bikes' afterall, not about floods or shootings or chemical weapons..bikes.

I would tend to think and feel the same way as Peter on this.

It's a bike, it's suppose to be FUN!

[victoryfactory]

The mockery of the Serotta "fit" because they catered to older guys (with a bit more saved money) and a lot more injuries (2 torn ACLs in my case) is tiresome.

I agree with this. Many people are mad at Serotta for departing from what they consider to be "proper" race bikes. The truth is Serotta was always capable of making any bike you wanted. The looks of some of their custom bikes were annoying to them. They felt like Serotta was making a mistake. They may have been right, But really what they were saying was "I will not be seen riding a bike made by a company that would make a bike that looks like that"
Some of these people are now very smug about being "right"
Human nature

VF

[firerescuefin]

Enjoyed the read....Ben's been through a lot...amazing to me how many people love to pile on. His mistakes were made running his business. He wasn't exploiting children. I look forward to reading his blog and wish him the best. :)

Why wouldn't I? :confused:

[malcolm]

As a business owner I always feel a little sting when a business closes. For people that have never run one it's not as easy as it looks. Ben had a long run in a very competitive business, much longer than many. I'm sure he did many things right and probably many wrong. We are all on the outside looking in and will never know.

As to bike fit. I think DBRK is as close as one can get to right and his comments were taken out of context. 99% of people don't need some high tech gizmos to be fitted to a bike. They just need someone that knows what they are doing to make sure their feet interface properly with the pedals, put their knees in a comfortable position, then saddle and bar height, move saddle fore or aft until you feel balanced and knees are good. People with marked limitations may need something more, longer head tube etc but it's not quantum mechanics. Same with custom builds. I hear people say all the time if the top tube was just a half cm more or less I would pull the trigger because it would be perfect. Well if the angles are right and you can get the saddle/bar height you need that half cm wont matter.

We should all feel a little bad as someone's business has failed but should also feel good about them moving on even if it's not in a direction we would choose. Ben and company made many people happy with their rides over the years and that's what counts. If you don't like what he is selling don't buy it. I wish all small business owners success.

[vav]

Where the heck is that "LIKE" button?

As a business owner I always feel a little sting when a business closes. For people that have never run one it's not as easy as it looks. Ben had a long run in a very competitive business, much longer than many. I'm sure he did many things right and probably many wrong. We are all on the outside looking in and will never know.

As to bike fit. I think DBRK is as close as one can get to right and his comments were taken out of context. 99% of people don't need some high tech gizmos to be fitted to a bike. They just need someone that knows what they are doing to make sure their feet interface properly with the pedals, put their knees in a comfortable position, then saddle and bar height, move saddle fore or aft until you feel balanced and knees are good. People with marked limitations may need something more, longer head tube etc but it's not quantum mechanics. Same with custom builds. I hear people say all the time if the top tube was just a half cm more or less I would pull the trigger because it would be perfect. Well if the angles are right and you can get the saddle/bar height you need that half cm wont matter.

We should all feel a little bad as someone's business has failed but should also feel good about them moving on even if it's not in a direction we would choose. Ben and company made many people happy with their rides over the years and that's what counts. If you don't like what he is selling don't buy it. I wish all small business owners success.

[William]

As a business owner I always feel a little sting when a business closes. For people that have never run one it's not as easy as it looks. Ben had a long run in a very competitive business, much longer than many. I'm sure he did many things right and probably many wrong. We are all on the outside looking in and will never know.

As to bike fit. I think DBRK is as close as one can get to right and his comments were taken out of context. 99% of people don't need some high tech gizmos to be fitted to a bike. They just need someone that knows what they are doing to make sure their feet interface properly with the pedals, put their knees in a comfortable position, then saddle and bar height, move saddle fore or aft until you feel balanced and knees are good. People with marked limitations may need something more, longer head tube etc but it's not quantum mechanics. Same with custom builds. I hear people say all the time if the top tube was just a half cm more or less I would pull the trigger because it would be perfect. Well if the angles are right and you can get the saddle/bar height you need that half cm wont matter.

We should all feel a little bad as someone's business has failed but should also feel good about them moving on even if it's not in a direction we would choose. Ben and company made many people happy with their rides over the years and that's what counts. If you don't like what he is selling don't buy it. I wish all small business owners success.

http://www.curtismulder.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/facebook-like-button.jpeg

[TAW]

99% of people don't need some high tech gizmos to be fitted to a bike.

In my opinion people just need to choose the right type of bike for their application and fitness level. Most of the worst looking bikes come because people want an aggressive race bike and then have to have the bars cranked up and some hideous looking geometry to make it work for them, rather than buy a bike with proper geometry for them.

[Joel]

The one time I think folks went over the line was when Serotta posted photos of I think an 80-year old who just got a custom frame that happened to be a mixte road, given some step-over clearance issues the guy had.

He (and Serotta) got ripped a new one. Never mind I'll be lucky to make it to 80, much less still be able to ride...

My father is still riding said bike :banana::banana::banana:

[fuzzalow]

The mockery of the Serotta "fit" because they catered to older guys (with a bit more saved money) and a lot more injuries (2 torn ACLs in my case) is tiresome.

I agree with this. Many people are mad at Serotta for departing from what they consider to be "proper" race bikes. The truth is Serotta was always capable of making any bike you wanted. The looks of some of their custom bikes were annoying to them. They felt like Serotta was making a mistake. They may have been right, But really what they were saying was "I will not be seen riding a bike made by a company that would make a bike that looks like that"
Some of these people are now very smug about being "right"
Human nature

VF

Because I have been critical of Serotta in my previous posts, I'll respond to some of the points made here - solely as discussion topics and not taken as personal.

Mockery of Serotta fit is not aimed at their clientèle. It is being critical of Serotta for taking the expedient path of least resistance in allowing goofy geometries to be built. This ostensibly sales-driven strategy done instead of furthering a Serotta fit methodology they claim to have invented & pioneered that could have been used to impart value to a client by setting them up right to begin with. Serotta caved by facilitating a goofy geometry which is what a novice rider/client though he needed or a bike shop would spec in order not to blow a sale.

Not mad at Serotta, wrong emotion. Disappointed that they did not respect and value their own racing heritage and allowed bikes to be made in an image that would neglect that racing tradition and the nullify the brand image hard won from their early support of American cycle racing.

Agree and admit that Serotta making bikes contrary to their racing image would disqualify Serotta from being a brand that might be considered by some cyclists with a preference and bias of cycling as a sport and not an activity. Brand image is important, no denying that.

Not smug, more like trepidation that the same road is again being trod upon, as before, and not understanding how this time will be different.

All credit to those riders who cherish their Serottas, irrespective as to the geometries - It is all done in service of the ride.

[FlashUNC]

My father is still riding said bike :banana::banana::banana:

And that is awesome.

[BumbleBeeDave]

My father is still riding said bike :banana::banana::banana:

I agree I've seen some unusual looking custom Serotta's for sale on eBay before. But what we DON'T see are the situations like this where the bike might have unusual geometry but the original owner but loves it and is comfortable on it and still rides the crap out of it. Riders who might not otherwise have been able to ride at all because of physical issues. We have no idea how many more of those situations there are because they're not cited anywhere.

No matter what the bike looks like to you or I, I don't think I have the right to call the geometry "goofy" no matter what it looks like if it's undeniably right for the individual who is riding it . . . and fuzzalow I'm not citing that word to take a slam at you.

But there are people here, across the hall, and elsewhere who seem to have made a second career out of slamming Serotta for making them when it's really none of their damn business. It's somebody else's bike, for Christ sakes! Just because it doesn't look like the bike you would ride doesn't mean it's wrong.

Admittedly, there probably were situations where the fitter screwed up. but I would wager heavily that those were the exception rather than the rule.

In any event, good luck to Ben and Bill, wherever they go from here. Ben has his good and bad sides and I've heard a lot about both of them, both here and elsewhere. But don't we all have good and bad sides? These grudges people seem to be carrying must get awfully heavy, and their axes are ground down to stubs by now.

Can't we just move on? Now where's that animated GIF of the guy beating the dead horse when I need it . . . Anybody? . . . Bueller? . . . William?

BBD

[fiamme red]

Can't we just move on? Now where's that animated GIF of the guy beating the dead horse when I need it . . . Anybody? . . . Bueller? . . . William?http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

[rustylion]

As one who has worked alongside Ben for the last year, I have witnessed the turmoil he has been through recently. I am happy that he is exiting the chaos and climbing to the high ground of life.

As a few of you have already mentioned, life is way too short to be mired in its occassional muck whether our situation was self-inflicted or simply the unfair side of life. We all have been there - in a bad place, usually temporary - and have dug our way out. Character is built in the messy times of life.

Ben is a solidly good man, still has much to contribute to the industry and wherever he goes, I will surely be cheering. When I can contribute to his efforts, whether as a friend or a co-worker, I will surely try to help him find his success.

The past is a memory, the future a dream and the present is the only place to immerse deeply in life. That makes the most sense to me. It is nice to see Ben doing the same.

[jpw]

As one who has worked alongside Ben for the last year, I have witnessed the turmoil he has been through recently. I am happy that he is exiting the chaos and climbing to the high ground of life.

As a few of you have already mentioned, life is way too short to be mired in its occassional muck whether our situation was self-inflicted or simply the unfair side of life. We all have been there - in a bad place, usually temporary - and have dug our way out. Character is built in the messy times of life.

Ben is a solidly good man, still has much to contribute to the industry and wherever he goes, I will surely be cheering. When I can contribute to his efforts, whether as a friend or a co-worker, I will surely try to help him find his success.

The past is a memory, the future a dream and the present is the only place to immerse deeply in life. That makes the most sense to me. It is nice to see Ben doing the same.

what's your plan going forward?

[dbrk]

snip...snip...

No matter what the bike looks like to you or I, I don't think I have the right to call the geometry "goofy" no matter what it looks like if it's undeniably right for the individual who is riding it . . . and fuzzalow I'm not citing that word to take a slam at you.
...snip...snip...Just because it doesn't look like the bike you would ride doesn't mean it's wrong.

Admittedly, there probably were situations where the fitter screwed up. but I would wager heavily that those were the exception rather than the rule.
BBD

As an implicit slammer I mean to reply constructively. My point was and remains this: when Serotta effectively turned over bike design to the fitters (no matter how many otherwise-unable-to-ride riders got their bike, at least two things happened. First, the brand lost identity--- they were Serotta Competition Bicycles--- and it gained identity, one associated with custom bikes that produced odd results. I would say "goofy" (because that would be true) but not to offend my pal Dave here. So the veritable dentist bikes (all due apologies to dentists) no matter how much ridden caused a lost connection to the segment of the market that the S-Competitive Bicycles no longer met. Serotta went down the path of your bike instead of their bike and far worse the fitter's notion of the bike. What happened to Serotta's bike? (This was my criticism of Mr Serotta's blog, i.e., he has kept with still more of a very bad idea.) So why buy a Serotta next to any euro-brand---well only if you have special needs because the your-bike model is not about people who can fit on those charts since those folks can ride a competition bicycle. Now add to this the cost of these customs and you have, voila, the injured-dentist bicycle market (with further apologies for using "dentist" as a euphemism but someone has to take the rap.)

So one can argue that lots of folks got on a road bike who would otherwise not ride to which I say that's just not a model for a competitive road bike at all. Further, turning fit over to some "expert" is total crap, which I have said before. Serotta had it right back when they sponsored, and where they failed was in keeping their racing heritage foremost with sponsorship (however small) and insisting that OUR bike is better for you and maybe just sending people elsewhere if they need the bars waaaaay up thar. (I'd be happy to make honest suggestions since I have NO objection to any fit that lets people be comfortable and ride!) My point was simple: Serotta just signed on to a slew of bad ideas about building bicycles, fitting bicycles, and in effect wholly losing their place among Competitive bicycles. I'm old, slow, and still think 99% of everyone could easily ride a road bike off the race chart if they rode more (and maybe ate less). Special needs folks need the special needs bicycle: Serotta may have been that bike but what percentage does that leave you with? Oh, right, 1% of the market.

[Mikej]

So is there a non compete clause?

[David Kirk]

As an implicit slammer I mean to reply constructively. My point was and remains this: when Serotta effectively turned over bike design to the fitters (no matter how many otherwise-unable-to-ride riders got their bike, at least two things happened. First, the brand lost identity--- they were Serotta Competition Bicycles--- and it gained identity, one associated with custom bikes that produced odd results. I would say "goofy" (because that would be true) but not to offend my pal Dave here. So the veritable dentist bikes (all due apologies to dentists) no matter how much ridden caused a lost connection to the segment of the market that the S-Competitive Bicycles no longer met. Serotta went down the path of your bike instead of their bike and far worse the fitter's notion of the bike. What happened to Serotta's bike? (This was my criticism of Mr Serotta's blog, i.e., he has kept with still more of a very bad idea.) So why buy a Serotta next to any euro-brand---well only if you have special needs because the your-bike model is not about people who can fit on those charts since those folks can ride a competition bicycle. Now add to this the cost of these customs and you have, voila, the injured-dentist bicycle market (with further apologies for using "dentist" as a euphemism but someone has to take the rap.)

So one can argue that lots of folks got on a road bike who would otherwise not ride to which I say that's just not a model for a competitive road bike at all. Further, turning fit over to some "expert" is total crap, which I have said before. Serotta had it right back when they sponsored, and where they failed was in keeping their racing heritage foremost with sponsorship (however small) and insisting that OUR bike is better for you and maybe just sending people elsewhere if they need the bars waaaaay up thar. (I'd be happy to make honest suggestions since I have NO objection to any fit that lets people be comfortable and ride!) My point was simple: Serotta just signed on to a slew of bad ideas about building bicycles, fitting bicycles, and in effect wholly losing their place among Competitive bicycles. I'm old, slow, and still think 99% of everyone could easily ride a road bike off the race chart if they rode more (and maybe ate less). Special needs folks need the special needs bicycle: Serotta may have been that bike but what percentage does that leave you with? Oh, right, 1% of the market.

Hello Sir -

Long time no see - I hope you are well.

I've read your last few posts and I've come away thinking that you sound angry........you might not intend to sound angry but that's how you come off to me at least. I don't know you well but I've never gotten the impression that you are an angry guy but instead are calm and peaceful. I wonder if the reason some have bristled at what you have said is less about the content and more about the tone.

Maybe you are angry and have a good reason, maybe you aren't and are inadvertently setting the wrong tone..........I don't know and it's none of my business. I just wanted you to know how the your posts have sounded at least to me lately.

Be well -

Dave

[Benny Profane]

As an implicit slammer I mean to reply constructively. My point was and remains this: when Serotta effectively turned over bike design to the fitters (no matter how many otherwise-unable-to-ride riders got their bike, at least two things happened. First, the brand lost identity--- they were Serotta Competition Bicycles--- and it gained identity, one associated with custom bikes that produced odd results. I would say "goofy" (because that would be true) but not to offend my pal Dave here. So the veritable dentist bikes (all due apologies to dentists) no matter how much ridden caused a lost connection to the segment of the market that the S-Competitive Bicycles no longer met. Serotta went down the path of your bike instead of their bike and far worse the fitter's notion of the bike. What happened to Serotta's bike? (This was my criticism of Mr Serotta's blog, i.e., he has kept with still more of a very bad idea.) So why buy a Serotta next to any euro-brand---well only if you have special needs because the your-bike model is not about people who can fit on those charts since those folks can ride a competition bicycle. Now add to this the cost of these customs and you have, voila, the injured-dentist bicycle market (with further apologies for using "dentist" as a euphemism but someone has to take the rap.)

So one can argue that lots of folks got on a road bike who would otherwise not ride to which I say that's just not a model for a competitive road bike at all. Further, turning fit over to some "expert" is total crap, which I have said before. Serotta had it right back when they sponsored, and where they failed was in keeping their racing heritage foremost with sponsorship (however small) and insisting that OUR bike is better for you and maybe just sending people elsewhere if they need the bars waaaaay up thar. (I'd be happy to make honest suggestions since I have NO objection to any fit that lets people be comfortable and ride!) My point was simple: Serotta just signed on to a slew of bad ideas about building bicycles, fitting bicycles, and in effect wholly losing their place among Competitive bicycles. I'm old, slow, and still think 99% of everyone could easily ride a road bike off the race chart if they rode more (and maybe ate less). Special needs folks need the special needs bicycle: Serotta may have been that bike but what percentage does that leave you with? Oh, right, 1% of the market.


Are you always competing when you ride?

[dbrk]

Hello Sir -

Long time no see - I hope you are well.

I've read your last few posts and I've come away thinking that you sound angry........you might not intend to sound angry but that's how you come off to me at least. I don't know you well but I've never gotten the impression that you are an angry guy but instead are calm and peaceful. I wonder if the reason some have bristled at what you have said is less about the content and more about the tone.snip...snip
Be well - Dave

Well, Dave, there's plenty in the world we might be really upset about but bikes are more a matter of pleasure and sometimes that elicits the same. I do apologize for any such intimations of anger but I would say this: It's a darn shame what happened to this storied brand and I suppose I think it didn't have to go that way. Of course, I'm just an old customer, it wasn't my gig to decide ---and I spent plenny of dough on lovely bikes from Serotta. But when I see the direction the company took, it makes me as sad as it does "angry" 'cause, well, they/Ben blew it. The CSi was one of the most remarkably beautiful and well-evolved bikes I'da' ever seen (you can watch it come into being season after season in increments) and then what came in its wake ---I've no illusions about the need to move forward---was, well, nothing like that. So what you're hearing is more the disillusionment and disappointment coming through (again, about bicycles? Really?) and that means someone was principally responsible for that, no? When there is brand-love (Serotta has had more than most), years of brand-loyalty (back to the halcyon days of racing), then the passionate customer sees the whole process, the whole concept fall apart--- I think you hear a tone that combines all of those feelings: loss, disappointment, anger, I mean it's a veritable Kubler-Ross show. Perhaps that's too much to say about loving some bikes. But I love a story and this brand lost the plot.

This is just an ancient customer's feelings (principally of loss) and someone who's been around bikes a long time, maybe long enough to have seen success and failure. My analysis may well seem harsh but even the Zen master raises the stick in the dojo when the koan has been sorely mistaken. I hope the snows come quickly so you can enjoy the slopes and the roads and trails give you plenty of time to ride when the sun shines.

[dbrk]

Are you always competing when you ride?

Of course there are plenty of ways to ride. I have had my share and can even say I was part of bringing the 650B wheel back into touring bikes (insofar as I pestered some very good friends in the business that this old French/Swedish preference made its own sense: fat tires that come out to about the same diameter as 700c blahblahblah).

That "always competing" wasn't my point. Mine was that a brand identity that was evolved over years (...watch the development, say to the CSi between late 80s and 90s) lost its way. And as a passionate, longstanding customer that was disappointing. Of course, I remember when Abercrombie sold fishing gear but I'm not being nostalgic. I'm commenting on the development of ideas and identity. Serotta lost the plot, especially with the fitting nonsense and the BurgerKing design, which imo served too few and failed to develop a continuing audience. How many of us who bought more than five, six Serottas (like me) went on to recommend the bikes in these past years? Maybe some but others could clearly see that the provenance was lost.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Douglas I'd have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. It seems to key into the view that Serotta changed to making nothing BUT bikes that you call "odd results."

That viewpoint cries out for proof and the only way I know of to prove it is to go to their database of every bike geo they've built over the past 15 years and tabulate how many were "odd"--that is, if you could first agree exactly on a definition of what constitutes an "odd result." Judging by your posts, that definition seems to mean any bike that YOU have decided does not look like what YOU have decided a real bike should look like.

I don't have access to that database . . . do you? I've seen a whole slew of photos over the past few years of Serotta bikes that certainly didn't look "odd." Much to the contrary, many of them looked smokin' hot and indeed very "competitive."

What I have seen over the past 10 years is a very vocal minority who seemed to take every opportunity to link and paste photos here and elsewhere of any one of these unusual looking bikes, and then make fun of them as "faster backwards" and worse. Worse than that, their remarks all too often also implied that if somebody didn't ride a bike that looked just like what THEY though a race bike should look like, then that person didn't really didn't deserve to be in the "club" of ownership for a high quality bicycle. They not only attacked the look of the bike--even if they didn't know anything about what particular needs of that particular customer that bike was made to address. By association they attacked the owner.

Why? Why would they do this? It seemed to me they have always ended up saying more about themselves through such attacks than they said about the buyers of those bikes, or Serotta.

In my mind Serotta only "gained identity" as you describe it, as a builder of nothing BUT such bikes because of the constant harping on the subject by that vocal minority who seemed to have appointed themselves the "Bike Aesthetic Police" and were determined to grind their axes down to little stubs.

" . . . 99% of everyone could easily ride a road bike off the race chart if they rode more (and maybe ate less)." . . . That sounds pretty elitist, doesn't it?

Maybe I'm just getting "old and slow," too, but I seem to remember an awful lot of those "faster backwards" bikes that the cool kids made fun of seemed to have a taller head tube and less saddle-to-bar drop, primarily to meet the needs of riders with less than contortionistic flexibility.

Now I look around and what do I see? Specialized Roubaix is big, with a taller headtube to--surprise!--meet the needs of riders with less than contortionistic flexibility. Every other bike company also seems to be climbing on that bandwagon with what they call "endurance" bikes. What does that REALLY mean except bikes that address "special needs" that maybe aren't so "special" after all? Namely that not everybody can bend over and put their palms flat on the ground.

I agree with Dave Kirk. You sound angry. I'm not sure why but it's unfortunate. At this point what difference does it make what the bikes Ben built look like? You don't have to ride them. I'm mystified as to why so many here seem so bent out of shape because Ben writes some blog post that implies he's not miserable and is moving on to other things.

Be well. Peace. Namaste.

BBD

As an implicit slammer I mean to reply constructively. My point was and remains this: when Serotta effectively turned over bike design to the fitters (no matter how many otherwise-unable-to-ride riders got their bike, at least two things happened. First, the brand lost identity--- they were Serotta Competition Bicycles--- and it gained identity, one associated with custom bikes that produced odd results. I would say "goofy" (because that would be true) but not to offend my pal Dave here. So the veritable dentist bikes (all due apologies to dentists) no matter how much ridden caused a lost connection to the segment of the market that the S-Competitive Bicycles no longer met. Serotta went down the path of your bike instead of their bike and far worse the fitter's notion of the bike. What happened to Serotta's bike? (This was my criticism of Mr Serotta's blog, i.e., he has kept with still more of a very bad idea.) So why buy a Serotta next to any euro-brand---well only if you have special needs because the your-bike model is not about people who can fit on those charts since those folks can ride a competition bicycle. Now add to this the cost of these customs and you have, voila, the injured-dentist bicycle market (with further apologies for using "dentist" as a euphemism but someone has to take the rap.)

So one can argue that lots of folks got on a road bike who would otherwise not ride to which I say that's just not a model for a competitive road bike at all. Further, turning fit over to some "expert" is total crap, which I have said before. Serotta had it right back when they sponsored, and where they failed was in keeping their racing heritage foremost with sponsorship (however small) and insisting that OUR bike is better for you and maybe just sending people elsewhere if they need the bars waaaaay up thar. (I'd be happy to make honest suggestions since I have NO objection to any fit that lets people be comfortable and ride!) My point was simple: Serotta just signed on to a slew of bad ideas about building bicycles, fitting bicycles, and in effect wholly losing their place among Competitive bicycles. I'm old, slow, and still think 99% of everyone could easily ride a road bike off the race chart if they rode more (and maybe ate less). Special needs folks need the special needs bicycle: Serotta may have been that bike but what percentage does that leave you with? Oh, right, 1% of the market.

[dbrk]

Douglas I'd have to respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. It seems to key into the view that Serotta changed to making nothing BUT bikes that you call "odd results."snip snip
I agree with Dave Kirk. You sound angry. I'm not sure why but it's unfortunate. At this point what difference does it make what the bikes Ben built look like? You don't have to ride them. I'm mystified as to why so many here seem so bent out of shape because Ben writes some blog post that implies he's not miserable and is moving on to other things.

Be well. Peace. Namaste.

BBD

Dave, hmmm. I'm happy for anyone not miserable. Suffering is all the Buddha reminds us and desire is our captivity. Yeah yeah.

No, you miss my point. Lemme say it once more: Serotta was a brand that had evolved from provenance. That the company lost that plot is the reason they are belly up, even toxic as a brand for the new owners. I'm happy plenty of people ride bikes and I've made plenty of recommendations to move folks onto bikes on which they feel comfortable. Part of being a brand, an effective brand, is keeping the outcomes within a narrative. We could point to dozens of companies that have done just that. I'd be happy to name names of successful ones. My point was that as Serotta developed, it lost its way. It went from Serotta Competitive Bicycles as a brand to what exactly? That's my point. Again, if you hear any tone of anger it's cause I was a very loyal customer, one disappointed with the outcomes. As for Mr Serotta's personal happiness, good for him! Really, truly, how can one resent another's sense of joy. But his business acumen seems stuck in the same ideas that caused the downfall of his company, and that was the point of my commenting on his blog. This has nothing to do with what others have said or some notion of critics and associates: these are my observations over more than 30 years of buying Serottas and seeing the company fail.

[Benny Profane]

Of course there are plenty of ways to ride. I have had my share and can even say I was part of bringing the 650B wheel back into touring bikes (insofar as I pestered some very good friends in the business that this old French/Swedish preference made its own sense: fat tires that come out to about the same diameter as 700c blahblahblah).

That "always competing" wasn't my point. Mine was that a brand identity that was evolved over years (...watch the development, say to the CSi between late 80s and 90s) lost its way. And as a passionate, longstanding customer that was disappointing. Of course, I remember when Abercrombie sold fishing gear but I'm not being nostalgic. I'm commenting on the development of ideas and identity. Serotta lost the plot, especially with the fitting nonsense and the BurgerKing design, which imo served too few and failed to develop a continuing audience. How many of us who bought more than five, six Serottas (like me) went on to recommend the bikes in these past years? Maybe some but others could clearly see that the provenance was lost.


Well, I'm new to the forum, but I'll bet that this place is a goldmine for speculation as to why Serotta as a company went down. What is the general consensus here? You seem to imply that the brand was compromised and a long term customer base was lost to a new one that didn't come through and buy as many bikes, or, enough bikes to keep the company as it was managed alive and prosperous. Does anyone have the sales numbers? Revenues? Costs? I mean, during, say, a thirty year period? Unless it's a public company, only a few are privy to those numbers, right?

Here's why I think Serotta went down. The home equity loan is no longer available to 95% of Americans who were using them for a decade and more to buy all sorts of stuff, like cars, big TVs, vacations, and 14,000 dollar bicycles. That source of easy credit and liquidity vanished in 2008. But, Serotta was left holding the bag with a large staff, some sort of interest in a carbon fiber facility, and, well, 14,000 dollar bicycles for sale. Nobody can afford that now, except for well off hobbyists. But, he still wouldn't lower his prices, even after the crash. I bought an Ultegra steel Colorado III custom fit with nice wheels in 2003 for 3000 bucks out the door after tax. 18 months ago, they wanted 3400 for a steel frame and nice fork, before anything else. (of course, now, you can't even buy a steel Serotta) Why the inflation? Has steel gone up that much in a decade? Are the welders making twice as much? I don't think so. I think it was just demand fueled by easy money. But, a lot of guys refuse to acknowledge that the good times were a fiction that will never return in their lifetimes, and won't downsize, you know, to where they started from. Welding in the garage and lucky to have a wife to do the paperwork.

I just had Carl Strong copy my Serotta, because I wanted another bike, not a new bike. Very fair price, and, I'm guessing that he'll be in business for a while, because it's just him in a nice garage and a wife helping a lot. He'll build anything, too, it seems. He's not hooked on one style of bike, be it competition or old dentist style, just on a fair value for a custom bike. If that business model can't survive, we're really in trouble.

[93legendti]

Seems to me Dr. Brooks was pretty happy with his last Serotta, a few years ago, and 2 before the split...


Here is the new Legend Ti: 59cm stock with one revision (57.5tt), one addition (pump peg), and one request (make the tubing as UNstiff as possible). Mission accomplished. I have taken my time with this bike, riding it now four times, on very different rides including yesterday's nice and hard 3.5 hours of climbing, rolling, flats, and descents. Stellar. Serotta really did build a Legend perfectly comfortable for the likes of me: weasel-ish and weak, I don't want a bike that rattles the mercury in my mouth. The look was meant to non plus, most of it I "stole" from Dirt's beautiful example: this is polish with the decals in matte. The other way around (matte bike and polished decals) was interestingly less austere and simple and I was going for austere and simple to the max. The saddle is a green Brooks Pro and the tape is Viva cotton. (JSN to cork!) So here are some new pictures from the woodpile. A more complete ride report to follow, details, details. You'll make out the bits: Nitto this and that, DA9, TA, it was all in the box so I used it.

Thanks for lookin'!

dbrk

Last summer I bought a "stock" geometry Legend Ti, 59cm level top tube with an F3 fork. The only change was a 57.5cm top tube (instead of 58). This changed nothing about the angles or geometries. The bike is polished ti with a matte decal. You can see pictures of it here: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=17564&highlight=Legend

Along with the pictures are a few more details. The upgrade charges include a pump peg. I'm honestly not happy about selling but I'm in the midst of a few projects and could stand the flow. Retail is well over 4k. Here for $2100 includes shipping in the CONUS, includes CK headset.


Write me here if you are interested: dbrk@frontiernet.net

Thanks a million, dbrk
I've always loved the ride of titanium, since I got my first Spectrum Ti made in 1991. That bike was too small (bought used!)...and so begins a long story. Since then I've tried nearly every ti bike and finally had huge success last year with a Hampsten-designed Moots, a bike that led to the creation of Cycles Tournesol. I've always love the look of the Legend and, as an historical point, I think Serotta was the first to solve the unwanted bb flex that characterized early titanium designs. Most of the Legends I've tried, however, are overbuilt for my slight and power. But I've always had a hankering for the Legend. A very good friend of mine rode one for years: polished silver, red decals, it was just so right.

The idea here was to have a bike that offers the beautiful ride of titanium and, at the same time, doesn't ask me to clean or concern myself much with frame upkeep; a bike I leave in the garage, put some dry lube on, and ride off. There's something utterly simple and "industrial" and yet the ride is just right. You'll note that it's rare to see a 59cm Legend without OS tubing... here you go but plenty stiff for me.

dbrk

p.s. To Lightspeeder: I was fortunate enough to simply ask for the bike I wanted, including the traditional level top tube. It may not be to everyone's taste but it's very much to mine. No harm, no foul.


Along with the repainted CSi, I think I have achieved at last Serotta Heaven. Heaven has a way of growing, never diminishing so we will see what the future hold.

The handlebar is the Nitto Noodle; the stem is the Nitto SE5-1 (I think that's what they call it...Riv sells them too).

There is indeed a significant difference between the ride on this bike and my last yellow Legend (which you now know well!!). This bike is more forgiving. I was just not big enough for that Legend, which was clearly built for someone bigger than me. The downtube on this new bike is not as large as the yellow Legend. Yesterday I tried to get it to rub, pounding as hard as I could to torque the bb but no go, it was perfect. Then every time I had a chance to take a bump or a hit or ride the pave, I did, wondering if my teeth would rattle. Nope, it was perfect again. A Legend for me, and a testament to Serotta's worthy consideration. It's unusual to have a bike this "large" (though 59 hardly seems large to me...or rather I think more folks should be on larger frames, that being another story), that hasn't been built for a large person. I like larger frames though I am not and this bike hits the mark perfectly.

happy boy. ml yo.

dbrk

[David Kirk]

Hello There Sir -

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think I understand how you feel. I too feel that same loss as you might imagine. I love the brand and so much of what it stood for and I mourn its passing less than some and more than most.

It can be especially tough when it seems so obvious from the outside what the problem is and seemingly how easy it would be to fix. I understand that one big time and as I often say "I'm driving that bus". When one sees silly things being done that will hurt and, in the end, kill the brand it's hard not to become frustrated and disillusioned. Again I'm with you.

All that said you seem angry/frustrated/short....etc with 'us' the members of this forum. If I have that wrong I sincerely apologize. 'We' Paceliners could have done no more than you could have to save the brand from taking the wrong fork in the road so many times and 'we' are no less frustrated by it happening. The only ones at fault are Ben and the folks that gave the brand money without any idea of what the brand really was. IMO all the bad decisions all stemmed from this same root and not from what the customers of the brand did or didn't do. In fact I would say that the customers did the right thing - they walked away from a brand that forgot what it was.

Anyway - I just wanted to share with you my observations and make sure you knew how at least one reader out here was receiving your messages.

Be well and don't be afraid to be in touch.

Dave



Well, Dave, there's plenty in the world we might be really upset about but bikes are more a matter of pleasure and sometimes that elicits the same. I do apologize for any such intimations of anger but I would say this: It's a darn shame what happened to this storied brand and I suppose I think it didn't have to go that way. Of course, I'm just an old customer, it wasn't my gig to decide ---and I spent plenny of dough on lovely bikes from Serotta. But when I see the direction the company took, it makes me as sad as it does "angry" 'cause, well, they/Ben blew it. The CSi was one of the most remarkably beautiful and well-evolved bikes I'da' ever seen (you can watch it come into being season after season in increments) and then what came in its wake ---I've no illusions about the need to move forward---was, well, nothing like that. So what you're hearing is more the disillusionment and disappointment coming through (again, about bicycles? Really?) and that means someone was principally responsible for that, no? When there is brand-love (Serotta has had more than most), years of brand-loyalty (back to the halcyon days of racing), then the passionate customer sees the whole process, the whole concept fall apart--- I think you hear a tone that combines all of those feelings: loss, disappointment, anger, I mean it's a veritable Kubler-Ross show. Perhaps that's too much to say about loving some bikes. But I love a story and this brand lost the plot.

This is just an ancient customer's feelings (principally of loss) and someone who's been around bikes a long time, maybe long enough to have seen success and failure. My analysis may well seem harsh but even the Zen master raises the stick in the dojo when the koan has been sorely mistaken. I hope the snows come quickly so you can enjoy the slopes and the roads and trails give you plenty of time to ride when the sun shines.

[rounder]

I still believe in Serotta. Go Ben.

I probably would not even be riding today if it was not for serotta. Serotta did not help me overcome fit problems, etc. Had none that I am aware of. It inspired me.

[mike p]

I have to say I can completely identify with this and I think many more share this view. I don't participate in many of these threads because...well what good comes of it and I do get a little angry or pissed when I see what happened to Serotta.
To me Serotta was what bike racing was all about in my youth. Huffy, 7/11, CSI, TDF lugs, Legends! They built "the bike" to own or aspire to.
It's undeniable somewhere along the line Ben changed course and it was a slow death march leading to bankruptcy.
Companies come and go and maybe I had a little to much invested in Serotta. It feels like having an old friend betray you. Out of all this I'd feel just a little better if Ben had shouldered the blame for Serotta's demise. Come out and say it was me and I own it. It wasn't this group or that guy it was me that screwed up, but judging from Ben's latest writings I'm not sure he thinks he was to blame.

Mike

Well, Dave, there's plenty in the world we might be really upset about but bikes are more a matter of pleasure and sometimes that elicits the same. I do apologize for any such intimations of anger but I would say this: It's a darn shame what happened to this storied brand and I suppose I think it didn't have to go that way. Of course, I'm just an old customer, it wasn't my gig to decide ---and I spent plenny of dough on lovely bikes from Serotta. But when I see the direction the company took, it makes me as sad as it does "angry" 'cause, well, they/Ben blew it. The CSi was one of the most remarkably beautiful and well-evolved bikes I'da' ever seen (you can watch it come into being season after season in increments) and then what came in its wake ---I've no illusions about the need to move forward---was, well, nothing like that. So what you're hearing is more the disillusionment and disappointment coming through (again, about bicycles? Really?) and that means someone was principally responsible for that, no? When there is brand-love (Serotta has had more than most), years of brand-loyalty (back to the halcyon days of racing), then the passionate customer sees the whole process, the whole concept fall apart--- I think you hear a tone that combines all of those feelings: loss, disappointment, anger, I mean it's a veritable Kubler-Ross show. Perhaps that's too much to say about loving some bikes. But I love a story and this brand lost the plot.

This is just an ancient customer's feelings (principally of loss) and someone who's been around bikes a long time, maybe long enough to have seen success and failure. My analysis may well seem harsh but even the Zen master raises the stick in the dojo when the koan has been sorely mistaken. I hope the snows come quickly so you can enjoy the slopes and the roads and trails give you plenty of time to ride when the sun shines.

[Climb01742]

Douglas,

I read something different in your posts. I don't read/hear anger. I hear passion, I hear a deep love of bikes, of authenticity, of principle, of being true to a vision in the face of the natural hardships any vision must overcome.

Thanks for writing and making a guest appearance. I'm reminded of what we miss without you and other past voices unafraid to have an opinion.

Visit again soon, ok?

[Elefantino]

Douglas,

I read something different in your posts. I don't read/hear anger. I hear passion, I hear a deep love of bikes, of authenticity, of principle, of being true to a vision in the face of the natural hardships any vision must overcome.

Thanks for writing and making a guest appearance. I'm reminded of what we miss without you and other past voices unafraid to have an opinion.

Visit again soon, ok?
+1.

The Brooks brings a lot to the table.

[palincss]

In Metro DC/Southern Maryland, Serotta used to be a very popular brand, found in local bike shops. Then that changed, bike shops dropped Serotta and switched loyalties to Seven. In the past few years, Seven has been thriving, and in my bike club titanium is experiencing a renaissance, gaining favor among disillusioned former carbon owners.

Is Seven enjoying this success because it has cachet due to a legacy of supporting racing? I don't believe so -- of course I'm no racing fan so I could be entirely wrong about this -- but I am sure that none of the extremely happy Seven owners I've spoken to lately bought their bikes because of any association with racing. I think they went to Seven because they wanted custom fits and because their local shop supports the brand.

As I said, bike shops dropped Serotta and switched. Why? I asked a friend who worked in one of those shops, and was told "Serotta had become extremely difficult to work with," and came away with the feeling that there was a big backstory that no one was really willing to get into.

[dbrk]

Seems to me Dr. Brooks was pretty happy with his last Serotta, a few years ago, and 2 before the split...

Of course I was! These were bikes that anyone would recognize as the brand that was Serotta Competition Bicycles. My point---again---was that turning over the design of the brand to the fitters and riders caused the bikes to lose identity and direction. And Ben is to blame for the direction of the company, which again is the point of owning and running a brand. I was rooting for the brand and spending money even as it was being decimated by poor direction. So what's the point here exactly?

I rarely write about bicycles anymore and less frequently reply to passive aggressive nonsense like this post. Dave Kirk is right: there are people on the Paceline for whom I have little affection. But my criticism of Serotta expressed in the thread has nothing to do with personal disaffection. I agree entirely with Dave's perspective on the brand failure. And I'm sure none of this matters one bit in the real world.

[happycampyer]

In Metro DC/Southern Maryland, Serotta used to be a very popular brand, found in local bike shops. Then that changed, bike shops dropped Serotta and switched loyalties to Seven. In the past few years, Seven has been thriving, and in my bike club titanium is experiencing a renaissance, gaining favor among disillusioned former carbon owners.

Is Seven enjoying this success because it has cachet due to a legacy of supporting racing? I don't believe so -- of course I'm no racing fan so I could be entirely wrong about this -- but I am sure that none of the extremely happy Seven owners I've spoken to lately bought their bikes because of any association with racing. I think they went to Seven because they wanted custom fits and because their local shop supports the brand.

As I said, bike shops dropped Serotta and switched. Why? I asked a friend who worked in one of those shops, and was told "Serotta had become extremely difficult to work with," and came away with the feeling that there was a big backstory that no one was really willing to get into.i think this has more to do with Serotta's demise than anything. Before the financial crisis, Serotta's relationship with dealers was more like a big box company than a boutique builder. To carry the brand, dealers had to buy a fleet of demo bikes that tied up a lot of capital. Not sure if there were quotas, but it wouldn't suprise me. And the frames were priced at the highest end, which made them a tougher sale, even if the premium was justified (which in my opinion it was, but if you don't get a chance to actually ride the bikes and see what goes into making them, that message got lost). In the early 2000's, Serotta engaged in an arms race with itself, internalizing virtually every process in the construction of its frames, which put further pressure on pricing. When the financial crisis hit, dealers unloaded their fleets of demo bikes—eBay was awash in these blowout sales through 2010. When dealers refused to replenish their demo fleets, Serotta lost a big chunk of expected production, and eventually slashed its dealer network. This gave rise to further dumping of demos (what was leftover) and the personal bikes of shop owners, etc. In the meantime, over the previous decaed, Seven, IF, Parlee and Moots had ridden Serotta's coat tails in signing up dealers for custom orders, and kept their prices below (sometimes only marginally below) Serotta's to avoid the Occupy Saratoga backlash, and filled the vacuum created by Serotta's retrenchment.

The same fitters that came up with the coordinates that resulted in fasterbackward Serottas have done the same with IF, Seven, Parlee, etc. if one searches eBay, they are not hard to find, and in Serotta's absence now, will only become more plentiful.

The loss of the racing heritage might have been a nail in the coffin, but the unrealistic sales assumptions, the internalized costs and other general financial mismanagement of the company were the coffin. The bikes in the meantime, were great.

[fuzzalow]

Of course I was! These were bikes that anyone would recognize as the brand that was Serotta Competition Bicycles. My point---again---was that turning over the design of the brand to the fitters and riders caused the bikes to lose identity and direction. And Ben is to blame for the direction of the company, which again is the point of owning and running a brand. I was rooting for the brand and spending money even as it was being decimated by poor direction. So what's the point here exactly?

I rarely write about bicycles anymore and less frequently reply to passive aggressive nonsense like this post. Dave Kirk is right: there are people on the Paceline for whom I have little affection but that wouldn't be the majority, no, not at all, and has nothing to do with my criticism of Serotta expressed in the thread. And I'm sure it matters not one bit in the real world.

I agree with you and my post is not to simply chime in as to agreement.

I find it perplexing that the criticism and disappointment leveled at Ben and the bicycle company he mismanaged is somehow conflated, seen as one and the same, confused with, viewed in the same light - to be taken as criticism leveled at the individual, personal ownership of a Serotta bike owned by a Paceline member.

The topic of the talk is business, of the man & the company. Not specifically you and your bike.

And to make matters worse, the bike is somehow personalized to be a direct reflection to the owner. Ridiculous. Criticism of the company, even of the bike itself - is not a criticism or a negative reflection of, or a dig at its owner. C'mon there are lots of owners who love Corvettes and Chevy made lots of crappy cars - I don't know that Corvette owners give a thought or take umbrage when a Chevette owner rains hate on Chevrolet.

[93legendti]

Of course I was! These were bikes that anyone would recognize as the brand that was Serotta Competition Bicycles. My point---again---was that turning over the design of the brand to the fitters and riders caused the bikes to lose identity and direction. And Ben is to blame for the direction of the company, which again is the point of owning and running a brand. I was rooting for the brand and spending money even as it was being decimated by poor direction. So what's the point here exactly?

I rarely write about bicycles anymore and less frequently reply to passive aggressive nonsense like this post. Dave Kirk is right: there are people on the Paceline for whom I have little affection. But my criticism of Serotta expressed in the thread has nothing to do with personal disaffection. I agree entirely with Dave's perspective on the brand failure. And I'm sure none of this matters one bit in the real world.
I am sorry you missed:
1) The point of quoting your posts lauding the Serotta Legend YOU designed and admitted was not a race bike. ("Serotta really did build a Legend perfectly comfortable for the likes of me: weasel-ish and weak".)
2) The fact that before the split you raved about Serotta. However, after the split, you and others have had real anger towards THIS forum AND Serotta. You all come back to advertise bikes for sale, but in the General Discussion section, there is anger.


I have no clue if you are still affiliated with Tournesol and/or Riv. If you are, I feel it is in bad form to post as you have re the demise of another manufacturer.
It is not "passive aggressive" or "nonsense". These are my feelings, based upon your posts.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=638270&postcount=26

I think talking out of both sides of your mouth is nonsensical.

[rustylion]

Ben and I are working on lots of individual and collective plans. We are thinking and talking things through with each other and with those we trust. But, so far, the specific direction is not clear.

Because we both love cycling as a long-time passion, we both hope to find income-producing work in the industry. I often counsel people that there is nothing more rewarding than to earn money at your passion. I intend to follow my own advice.

Thank you for asking!

what's your plan going forward?

[Chris]

I am sorry you missed:
1) The point of quoting your posts lauding the Serotta Legend YOU designed and admitted was not a race bike. ("Serotta really did build a Legend perfectly comfortable for the likes of me: weasel-ish and weak".)
2) The fact that before the split you raved about Serotta. However, after the split, you and others have had real anger towards THIS forum AND Serotta. You all come back to advertise bikes for sale, but in the General Discussion section, there is anger.


I have no clue if you are still affiliated with Tournesol and/or Bridgestone. If you are, I feel it is in bad form to post as you have re the demise of another manufacturer.
It is not "passive aggressive" or "nonsense". These are my feelings, based upon your posts.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=638270&postcount=26

I think talking out of both sides of your mouth is nonsensical.

I don't think race bikes have to be teeth chattering stiff. I don't think Douglas was speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Douglas and I actually traded my Legend Ti for his Moots Compact, so I know a little bit about the man and his bikes. His point if I might interpret is that Serotta did a great job of tuning the ride for his preferences not changing what they do in terms of the ethos of the bike they build.

I am in Douglas' camp on the changes of Serotta through the years and I believe that it led to their downfall. As I've stated elsewhere (which I am sure you can find and post here :) ). The red/yellow classic steel Serotta was the first frame I lusted after and I eventually saved and bought a CRL which I still really regret selling. If anyone has my old yellow and blue CRL and you want to send it home, PM me. Then I had a Legend Ti as my race bike. It was a 60 and was WAY to harsh for my tastes. That isn't the point though. The point was that Serotta started making the nicest racing (Competition) bicycles on the planet IMHO. Then he/they stepped away from that and went to a you design it and we will build it philosophy around the same time that he/they moved into ti/carbon and carbon offerings that were easily 10-20% more expensive than other top-end frames available. That particular strategy (only in my opinion as a loyal customer and fan from the outside looking in) led to a loss of identity as a brand that many people cherished. It was totally Ben's perogative to go that way. Now all that's left is the Monday morning quarterbacking about the demise of the brand. Douglas has his opinion, I have mine and I think they are in the same vein as some others on this forum who have posted their comments in this thread and others. I haven't seen too many others (me included) castigated for expressing the same opinions, which leads me to believe that this is more about grinding the ax about old feelings regarding people feeling unwelcome and leaving only to chime in from time to time rather than being loyal forumites than the message being delivered.

The Buddha said that once you get angry the argument becomes about you rather than the topic. Or something like that. I love reading about everyone's view on this topic and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I'm okay with other people being wrong :). What becomes discouraging are the personal attacks and the Meet the Press like citations drug up from years ago in order to 'discredit' the author of an OPINION.

[PQJ]

What becomes discouraging are the personal attacks and the Meet the Press like citations drug up from years ago in order to 'discredit' the author of an OPINION.

This. I don't have a dog in this proverbial fight but the referenced behavior smacks of nurseryschoolness. Totally uncalled for but in character I guess. Don't know Douglas but have no doubt I could learn a lot from him even if my take on serottas demise is different.

[palincss]

And to make matters worse, the bike is somehow personalized to be a direct reflection to the owner. Ridiculous. Criticism of the company, even of the bike itself - is not a criticism or a negative reflection of, or a dig at its owner.

Actually some of it is. There's been plenty said along the lines of "those people with the 'fasterbackward' frames, if they can't get more flexible they should just get a hybrid, plenty of nice ones for five hundred bucks at the LBS." Now tell me that's not a dig at the owner.

[oliver1850]

I do believe that the perception of the brand has changed over time, as Douglas described it. When I bought my first one (1993?), "dentist bike" and "faster backwards" hadn't even been coined yet. I considered them much racier than anything you could get from Trek (I have a 1992 5500).

What I don't understand is why the relatively small percentage of custom frames with unusual dimensions came to define the brand in so many (apparently) people's minds. I'd bet Trek has built a much larger percentage of upright bikes than has Serotta, yet they don't get stigmatized for it while Serotta does. I wonder how much of the bias against Serotta is concentrated in this small community (present and former forum members), and whether it's actually pervasive among the general population with an interest in road bikes. Granted that recently they've been off the radar of most for various reasons, but that doesn't necessarily indicate a negative perception of the brand.

[FlashUNC]

I do believe that the perception of the brand has changed over time, as Douglas described it. When I bought my first one (1993?), "dentist bike" and "faster backwards" hadn't even been coined yet. I considered them much racier than anything you could get from Trek (I have a 1992 5500).

What I don't understand is why the relatively small percentage of custom frames with unusual dimensions came to define the brand in so many (apparently) people's minds. I'd bet Trek has built a much larger percentage of upright bikes than has Serotta, yet they don't get stigmatized for it while Serotta does. I wonder how much of the bias against Serotta is concentrated in this small community (present and former forum members), and whether it's actually pervasive among the general population with an interest in road bikes. Granted that recently they've been off the radar of most for various reasons, but that doesn't necessarily indicate a negative perception of the brand.

I'd wager the more real problems aside from "faster backwards" et al was dealer relations, the dealer network as a whole, and the general cost structure.

Tough to buy a bike when there's not one to buy and no one's selling it. Yanno?

[CunegoFan]

What I don't understand is why the relatively small percentage of custom frames with unusual dimensions came to define the brand in so many (apparently) people's minds. I'd bet Trek has built a much larger percentage of upright bikes than has Serotta, yet they don't get stigmatized for it while Serotta does. I wonder how much of the bias against Serotta is concentrated in this small community (present and former forum members), and whether it's actually pervasive among the general population with an interest in road bikes. Granted that recently they've been off the radar of most for various reasons, but that doesn't necessarily indicate a negative perception of the brand.

It comes down to who others see using the brand. When Serotta jacked its prices to the moon, the people who could afford to buy were older, which generally means heavier and less racy riders. A fifty-year-old who was thirty pounds over weight became the archetypal rider people expected to see with a Serotta. The response for many was, "Nice bike but I don't want to be one of those guys, at least not for a couple of decades."

Serotta suffered a double whammy because those who still held the brand in esteem were people who began riding in the 80s or earlier. There was a natural graying of the brand's demographic with no replacements coming from younger riders.

[PQJ]

I'd wager the more real problems aside from "faster backwards" et al was dealer relations, the dealer network as a whole, and the general cost structure.

Tough to buy a bike when there's not one to buy and no one's selling it. Yanno?

Was gonna say exact same thing but you beat me to it. "Dentist bike" and "fasterbackwards" are likely only understood in these narrow parts and across the hall; pretty small sub-segment of a small sub-segment of a small sub-segment.

The only thing I'd add is hubris. When I bought my Serotta in '06 I had a very negative experience with the first dealer I attempted to buy it from (Bicycle Link) and from Serotta itself (in essence: "you'll buy what we want to sell you, when we want to sell it to you, and if you don't like that, go somewhere else"). I ended up having a first-rate experience with Signature Cycles but were it not for a long-held desire to own a Serotta, I would have gone somewhere else after Bicycle Link refunded my deposit.

[cmg]

It comes down to who others see using the brand. When Serotta jacked its prices to the moon, the people who could afford to buy were older, which generally means heavier and less racy riders. A fifty-year-old who was thirty pounds over weight became the archetypal rider people expected to see with a Serotta. The response for many was, "Nice bike but I don't want to be one of those guys, at least not for a couple of decades."

Serotta suffered a double whammy because those who still held the brand in esteem were people who began riding in the 80s or earlier. There was a natural graying of the brand's demographic with no replacements coming from younger riders.

describes me. bought one new Serotta at the end steels reign, bought 4 more steel frames (used) over the next decade. each time having to stop and explain what makes it special to my fellow riders. why i wasn't going to aluminum or carbon, by the time i went to ti they were way out of my price range or what i was willing to pay. copy/tweak geometry and find a builder. When i got the 2nd Serotta in my mind they built the best steel bikes, hard to convince anyone else when ti/carbon/alum frames were coming to the forefront.

they buy reynolds carbon forks discontinue that brand (timeline may be wrong) and sell serotta forks for $600+ ($400 more than reynolds). what's not to like?

[beeatnik]

It comes down to who others see using the brand. When Serotta jacked its prices to the moon, the people who could afford to buy were older, which generally means heavier and less racy riders. A fifty-year-old who was thirty pounds over weight became the archetypal rider people expected to see with a Serotta. The response for many was, "Nice bike but I don't want to be one of those guys, at least not for a couple of decades."

Serotta suffered a double whammy because those who still held the brand in esteem were people who began riding in the 80s or earlier. There was a natural graying of the brand's demographic with no replacements coming from younger riders.

Yes.

IMO, the true irony is that the current manifestation of the "dentist bike" is actually a race bike, Cervelo. Think about that one, y'all. A few years ago, the perception was that Cervelo was a doomed brand. However, the perception didn't align with consumer attitudes as the company's problems were a matter of distribution which some believe were related to, ironically, Cervelo's huge investment in its Test Team. A buyer for a SoCal chain told me that the demand was always high but inventory low. There were also some pricing issues complicating matters with dealers. Management wasn't doing a great job; company was sold. They seem to be doing fine now.

A few months ago, before Vanilla W lifted it's embargo on Speedvagen pics, a user on Velocipede linked to the flickr set of his new Surprise Me Speedvagen. Not unlike most bike geeks, I was super curious/stoked about being able to take a peek at those pics. That curiosity also included an interest in the bikes that preceded the Vagen. Well, since the flickr account wasn't private, there was access to various sets which included, wait for it, pics of the owner and his previous bike, a Cervelo. Without intending any judgment or "tone," if you study the pics what you see is an average middle aged professional riding with other average middle aged men (many on Cervelos as well). Now what I'm interested in, and what Malcolm Gladwell could write a book about (or has he) is why and how this average middle aged man decided he needed a Vagen (how much real racing heritage is there in that brand, really)? And as a corollary, why he didn't get a Serotta or Seven. The guy is on the East Coast.

Anyway, it's all much more complicated than "narrative" or "racing heritage."

[fuzzalow]

Lotsa backstory I was not observant about floating around this thread. Old grievances and emotions from back when of the time of the "split". Oh well...
Actually some of it is. There's been plenty said along the lines of "those people with the 'fasterbackward' frames, if they can't get more flexible they should just get a hybrid, plenty of nice ones for five hundred bucks at the LBS." Now tell me that's not a dig at the owner.

Yes you are correct, that is a vile and personally insulting remark indiscriminately aimed at an entire swatch of cyclists.

Some of that sentiment might have been said in the past. But this wasn't really posted much in this thread...well it was but it got edited out. And the pox on anyone who would say this to any rider about his bike. Because any rider that is determined to ride in whatever way they can and however way they know how to ride deserves respect. Spewing negativity is easy, doing something positive and constructive is hard.

Talking about Serotta as a business is something completely different. It's not personally pointing out somebody's bike and mocking it. It is more lamenting about how Serotta messed up a good thing they had going. Too bad but I'd concede that griping about it is futile, much like crying over spilt milk.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Social Darwinism applied to cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

There were some very mean and insulting things posted here implying pretty directly that any cyclist who didn't already actively race or who could bend over and put their palms flat on the ground didn't deserve to have a high quality bicycle.

Unfortunately, the vocal minority who trumpeted this BS chose Serotta to use as a symbol because Serotta actually made an effort to accommodate those cyclists--and ended up with some unusual looking frames. They may have suited their owners and their physical limitations just fine. But they didn't look like "real" bicycles as defined by these individuals, so they blamed it all on Serotta.

Most of these people seem to have left here during the big split.

BBD

[pbarry]

Social Darwinism applied to cycling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

There were some very mean and insulting things posted here implying pretty directly that any cyclist who didn't already actively race or who could bend over and put their palms flat on the ground didn't deserve to have a high quality bicycle.

Unfortunately, the vocal minority who trumpeted this BS chose Serotta to use as a symbol because Serotta actually made an effort to accommodate those cyclists--and ended up with some unusual looking frames. They may have suited their owners and their physical limitations just fine. But they didn't look like "real" bicycles as defined by these individuals, so they blamed it all on Serotta.

Most of these people seem to have left here during the big split.

BBD

I like those bikes just fine, as long as the trail measurement is decent. There are many custom Serottas in Boulder County ridden by seniors. A huge untapped market now, that just needs a nudge from an ad in the AARP flyer to reap big rewards for a forward thinking bike company.

[fuzzalow]

I just gotta toss a flippant response to this quote, I just gotta...

There were some very mean and insulting things posted here implying pretty directly that any cyclist who didn't already actively race or who could bend over and put their palms flat on the ground didn't deserve to have a high quality bicycle.

Bullies prey on perceived weakness and insecurities from the safety of their fellow Confederates. I would have told them to go eff themselves.

[christian]

The problem with all those 20cm HT Serottas wasn't that they had 20cm HTs. It was that they had <41cm chainstays. They were playing at being racing bikes when they weren't.

You can't fundamentally change position on a bicycle without altering weight distribution. You can't alter weight distribution without altering handling. If the bars are going to be above the seat, you'd better do something on the back end of the bike, too.

[dekindy]

Everyone is talking about the fasterbackward Serotta designs being their downfall. Why would anyone that knows Serotta Competition think that because they were building bikes for dentists they would not still build race bikes? Doesn't seem remotely logical to me. It's not like dentists are going to show up where the racers are and embarrass them!

Also I cannot get over the number of bike displayed on the forum with near vertical stems. Combine that with the praise of the newer retail models with more "reasonable geometries"; there seems to be a disconnect here. On the Serotta side it is dead wrong and on the other hand it is being praised.

I have had other LBS's criticize my position as being too upright and not fast or efficient. However they did not ask one single question about my physical problems on the bike or do any kind of flexibility evaluation or physical survey. I ignore their know it all comments and enjoy my pain-free and injury-free rides.

[happycampyer]

The problem with all those 20cm HT Serottas wasn't that they had 20cm HTs. It was that they had <41cm chainstays. They were playing at being racing bikes when they weren't.

You can't fundamentally change position on a bicycle without altering weight distribution. You can't alter weight distribution without altering handling. If the bars are going to be above the seat, you'd better do something on the back end of the bike, too.You mean something like this? Serotta wasn't alone in making these frames. I have an IF ti Crown Jewel with a 55cm top tube and a 20cm headtube that I bought secondhand to make a flatbar hybrid for riding around the neighborhood with my daughters. I suppose since IF, Seven, Parlee, etc. didn't have a racing heritage to begin with, they didn't have an image to destroy.

Your point about altering geometry is right, but it begs the question, were the chainstays in fact lengthened? One person who had a significant responsibility in the process who could address that point is Kelly Bedford. The process with Serotta wasn't that the fitter designed the bike—the fitter provided the contact points, for better or worse. It was the head designer at the factory who drafted and signed-off on the frame. If the contact points didn't makes sense, it was up to the head designer to say, "hey, based on these contact points, the headtube and the seat tube are the same length—are you sure you got the measurements right?" The company could have asked for a photo of the customer on the size cycle, etc. To let the frame out the door, the head designer had to OK the draft. So, who signed off on all these bikes? By all accounts, it wasn't Ben—apparently he was too busy antiquing for his mansion. Rather, it would seem that it was Kelly, who was the head designer at Serotta for several decades. Kelly is highly regarded not only as a master craftsman and builder, but also as a designer, so to say that Serotta produced so many poorly designed bikes would seem to question whether Kelly knew what he was doing.

[William]

Really, we're dragging Kelly into this now?

Okay, just because one is the head designer doesn't mean that they can't be over ridden to let stuff out the door. I ran the Quality Assurance department at a company that started importing Chinese junk after decades of producing high quality products. We were rejecting stuff left and right but the President and his number 2 started overriding my people's QC rejections and letting stuff go out the door. Guess what, that company doesn't exist anymore either. But I guaranty you there is a huge hole in the wall in my old office where I would bang my head in frustration when they would continually let that crap out the door. Guess who the reps blamed when their customers complained about faulty products?

The point to my rambling is the buck stops at the top.

With that this thread is closed.





William