Just Wondering-Horner

[gasman]

So today Chris Horner at age 41 won the Vuelta, the oldest guy to win any Grand Tour. I have only been following the race at Velo News but I"m wondering why there has been so little said on this board about the race or Horner.
Are fellow forumites burned out or don't care about admittedly the third tier Grand Tour. Do we all think Horner had help from big Pharma ?

I am way impressed with his win.

[MattTuck]

I think we've had a bunch of conversations about the vuelta and Horner.

I love the old dude!!

[FlashUNC]

There's been several conversations. Both about the incredible nature of the win and the, um, incredible nature of the win.

[gasman]

Well I guess i missed the conversations.

As Gilda Radner said "Never mind"

[Hawker]

Yes, lots of us are wondering....and hoping.

[Jack Brunk]

My head is not buried in the sand. Cool win but really?

[gasman]

My head is not buried in the sand. Cool win but really?

Hit the nail on the head

[#campyuserftw]

Don't deny the middle-aged miracle.

:cool:

[weisan]

<big sigh> my heart goes out to Horner, I am one year older than him...

I mean, if you look at his palmares, this chap basically won everything there was to win in north America, then he got bored and went over to a bigger pond over in Europe, even there, he was not too shabby a rider.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Horner

I wished he was given the same opportunity some of the younger riders today were given, say 10 years ago...who says life is fair.

[Z3c]

<big sigh> my heart goes out to Horner, I am one year older than him...

I mean, if you look at his palmares, this chap basically won everything there was to win in north America, then he got bored and went over to a bigger pond over in Europe, even there, he was not too shabby a rider.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Horner

I wished he was given the same opportunity some of the younger riders today were given, say 10 years ago...who says life is fair.

This like saying he was the star of the Sherman Herman Institute of Technology football team and now you are not surprised that he was the Superbowl MVP.. Honestly? Horner dominated here when that meant next to nothing(it only means so much now); before Tof Cali, before CO, before anything that drew Euro guys. He has never been the U.S. Nat'l road champ. People were stunned when Freddy won that at his age; the Vuelta win should be shocking in comparison IMHO.

I want to believe but I am struggling to ignore the "if it seems to good to be true.." inner voice..

[weisan]

This like saying he was the star of the Sherman Herman Institute of Technology football team and now you are not surprised that he was the Superbowl MVP.. Honestly? Horner dominated here when that meant next to nothing(it only means so much now); before Tof Cali, before CO, before anything that drew Euro guys. He has never been the U.S. Nat'l road champ. People were stunned when Freddy won that at his age; the Vuelta win should be shocking in comparison IMHO.

I want to believe but I am struggling to ignore the "if it seems to good to be true.." inner voice..

What Horner did to win the Vuelta is a miracle and miracle don't happen everyday so it is normal to draw disbelief. The fact that he belonged to the tainted generational group does not help his cause. I think by far the most damning factor against him is his stupid remark that he did not see or hear anything suspicious while he was inside the team.

That was truly an incredulous statement....same thing said by Jens Voigt, a popular and well-liked figure.

I am not defending or accusing Horner.

Still at almost 42 to win a grand tour, with all the help he can get, it's an unprecedented event.

[soulspinner]

What Horner did to win the Vuelta is a miracle and miracle don't happen everyday so it is normal to draw disbelief. The fact that he belonged to the tainted generational group does not help his cause. I think by far the most damning factor against him is his stupid remark that he did not see or hear anything suspicious while he was inside the team.

That was truly an incredulous statement....same thing said by Jens Voigt, a popular and well-liked figure.

I am not defending or accusing Horner.

Still at almost 42 to win a grand tour, with all the help he can get, it's an unprecedented event.

As Horner notes, his power figures were right on what he has always been capable of. His big VAM was wind aided proof being all the other GC contenders rode their best times up that grade also that day. Speeds are coming down but not Horners. He was fresh coming off an injury and the other GC contenders had contested other Grand Tours this year. The supermen don't seem to be as doped up, or he would have never won. Im happy for him, always had a smile and was happy to do an interview. Until I hear otherwise he just won a Grand tour. Chapeau!

[weisan]

z3c-pal, I respectfully disagree...I still think Horner's achievements in the US, taken by themselves, are formidable, not something to write off too easily.

There are village dust kickers in Africa who can outrun any of the world-record marathoners today...if only they were given the chance but they probably never will because of their circumstances.

There are no little people, and no little places.

[CPP]

Let's believe......!
He raced little this year so was fresh, he was super skinny, he has a super attitude, he is a great rider, he was given free reign. Let's just believe!

P.S. he has no team yet for next year

[Gat64]

I really hope this was a clerical mix-up: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-horner-misses-post-vuelta-anti-doping-test

It was an amazing Vuelta!

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . nothing surprises me any more. I'll just wait for the dope tests to come back and in the meantime far more immediate things to deal with in real life!

BBD

[tele]

. . . nothing surprises me any more. I'll just wait for the dope tests to come back and in the meantime far more immediate things to deal with in real life!

BBD

Cant have any negatives if they cant find you! Comical but doesnt inspire confidence.

[weisan]

. . . in the meantime far more immediate things to deal with in real life!

BBD
really? Like what...:p

[FlashUNC]

Lets just have a word association experiment.

If someone asked you out of the blue who, in all of cycling's history, would be the first 40+ grand tour winner, what name comes to mind?

Anquetil? Merckx? Poulidor? Bobet? Instead Horner is the guy to do it.

Chris has had a bizarre career.

[rwsaunders]

First Diana Nyad, then Chris Horner...Louis, what are you up to?

[wasfast]

I really hope this was a clerical mix-up: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-horner-misses-post-vuelta-anti-doping-test

It was an amazing Vuelta!

Radioshack says it was a clerical error. Spanish officials went to the team hotel, not the hotel where Chris was staying. Supposedly, email shows the whereabouts was correct, the officials weren't:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/radioshack-leopard-publishes-horners-whereabouts-update-email

[wallymann]

http://cdn.velonews.competitor.com/files/2013/09/Chris-Horner-email.jpg

[#campyuserftw]

Interesting email.

All they need is a few hours, a day to rinse with fluids. Look, all I'm saying is if they find some IV bags at the hotel, filled some redneck Budweiser beer, it'll be suspicious. :)

I will purchase this Vuelta when it comes out on dvd. It was a great competition, dunno about the rest; this new missed-test-glitch sounds like a song we've heard so many times before, and I hope he was, and is clean. David Walsh is on it.

Good luck Horner. I hope you truly rode and won clean.

[Russell]

Did find it interesting that USADA would request a surprise test a few hours afer he had an automatic test after winning the race

[rice rocket]

Did find it interesting that USADA would request a surprise test a few hours afer he had an automatic test after winning the race

Diuretics only work as masking agents as long as you keep drinking water...

[laupsi]

so I was wondering;if you take the point of view that the Peleton is riding clean or substantially cleaner for the first time in many, many years perhaps the result of someone who's raced as long as Horner and nearing the age of 42 isn't so unusual.

Horner is wildly experienced. the stars did align for him given his Vuelta race prep and the racing schedules of his competition. his power numbers aren't off the chart and are consistent w/his past numbers and those of previous, normal, climb times discounting wind effect.

perhaps we would have witnessed more of these types of results w/out widespread doping? things being normalized for a change may pose some interesting/otherwise "abnormal" results. just posining the question.

[rice rocket]

Does "wind effect" really matter that much on a 10% avg?

[Lewis Moon]

Jeebus...this whole thing has turned into the "Keystone Cops meets Joe McCarthy".

RLT HAD to know the media was poised for a virtual lynching after the Pharmstrong affair. You would think they'd be "belt AND suspenders" when it came to doping control.

What do you do? Horner just finished an incredible, life changing feat and he wanted to spend time with his wife. He had already submitted a sample to doping control. The team was in celebration mode. Red hats for everyone.

Someone made a huge mistake and will probably lose theit job over this. When cynicism rules, it's hard to see that things are good.

[nbrewste]

Maybe this is why the NY Times buried news of Horner's win (see screenshot) - absolute bottom of the Sports page.

Pretty unbelievable, even in light of a missed test -- one would imagine such a story would inspire. First American to with the Vuelta and the oldest to win a grand tour -- that's big news!

[Lewis Moon]

Does "wind effect" really matter that much on a 10% avg?

Three of the top ten all time rides happened this year. Yeah, I think it might....and it looks like there's only ~3% difference between 2-10. The ride is in the ballpark.

[christian]

I believe.

[Lewis Moon]

Maybe this is why the NY Times buried news of Horner's win (see screenshot) - absolute bottom of the Sports page.

Pretty unbelievable, even in light of a missed test -- one would imagine such a story would inspire. First American to with the Vuelta and the oldest to win a grand tour -- that's big news!

Na....it didn't report it because:
A) Football season is starting
B) Baseball season is ending
C) it's NOT the TDF
D) No one knows Chris
E) Bike racing is for effete Euros
F) Lance made everyone want to look away.

[Lewis Moon]

I believe.

Me too.

[FlashUNC]

I don't believe him for a second, but the racing is still fun to watch.

[christian]

Me too.

I was being facetious.

[Lewis Moon]

I was being facetious.

I was not.

[laupsi]

Does "wind effect" really matter that much on a 10% avg?

I know a head wind would matter

[malcolm]

I can't imagine the proof it would take for me to believe. I've been watching for years, not so much now but still a little and have never for one second thought any of the top dogs were clean.

[CunegoFan]

Does "wind effect" really matter that much on a 10% avg?

Race tactics do. So does temperature.

[54ny77]

I believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ApZbtYPhy4&list=PLXmk3vPO_AhZ1SDy9520DIxISb8FRq0cp

[FlashUNC]

The dude believes.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/hornerbeard-620.jpg

[cachagua]

Lookit that, hobbits ride bikes. Who knew!

[Lewis Moon]

http://i.qkme.me/3rxkcn.jpg

Should read: "Before I joined Paceline"

[Joe Bob]

He won, he's old.....and no job because he's old.....

[jpw]

he looks younger with his helmet on

[CPP]

Pez.com thinks his helmet is too big and his bars are too wide.

[MattTuck]

If nothing else, I hope this secures a commentary job for him.

I still think it was a great performance. Watching animated racing, and having seconds separating first and second place is awesome.

[54ny77]

one would think it might be a good idea to, say, hang out in country 1 or 2 days past a grand tour so as to be sure any incidentals are settled, vs. leaving on a plane the next morning and potentially stepping into a s&%!storm.

but whaddoo i know, i'm just a caveman.

[FlashUNC]

one would think it might be a good idea to, say, hang out in country 1 or 2 days past a grand tour so as to be sure any incidentals are settled, vs. leaving on a plane the next morning and potentially stepping into a s&%!storm.

but whaddoo i know, i'm just a caveman.

http://roadsidejesus.com/hola/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/unfrozenCaveLawyer.jpg

[Vientomas]

one would think it might be a good idea to, say, hang out in country 1 or 2 days past a grand tour so as to be sure any incidentals are settled, vs. leaving on a plane the next morning and potentially stepping into a s&%!storm.

but whaddoo i know, i'm just a caveman.

Tickets booked before Horner knew he won the event? Who knows? If so, what a jerk Horner is.

Been working for at least 21 days away from home, sleeping in different hotels almost every night, not eating burgers and simply wants to go to his own home ASAP and grill up a burger. Who knows? If so, what a D-Bag Horner is.

How 'bout the anti-doping agencies get their ···· together and communicate. One would think it might be a good idea to, say, confirm the whereabouts of an athlete so as to be sure any incidentals are settled, vs. not confirming the athlete's whereabouts, leaking their incompetence to the media as a missed test and creating a s&%!storm.

But whaddoo i know, i'm just a caveman. :)

[Lewis Moon]

Tickets booked before Horner knew he won the event? Who knows? If so, what a jerk Horner is.

Been working for at least 21 days away from home, sleeping in different hotels almost every night, not eating burgers and simply wants to go to his own home ASAP and grill up a burger. Who knows? If so, what a D-Bag Horner is.

How 'bout the anti-doping agencies get their ···· together and communicate. One would think it might be a good idea to, say, confirm the whereabouts of an athlete so as to be sure any incidentals are settled, vs. not confirming the athlete's whereabouts, leaking their incompetence to the media as a missed test and creating a s&%!storm.

But whaddoo i know, i'm just a caveman. :)

Indeed.

[Russell]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/usada-horner-not-at-fault-over-missed-test_303095

[Lewis Moon]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/usada-horner-not-at-fault-over-missed-test_303095

There ya go.

PS: Now who leaked the story? That person needs spanked good.

[Ozrider]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/usada-horner-not-at-fault-over-missed-test_303095


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[Louis]

So USADA's in on the cover-up too?

[#campyuserftw]

Did ya'll notice on stage 20, in the misty fog, when the motorcycle with tv camera stalled out on the 20% grade, and we lost the leaders for a bit? He shaved his head in a Socratic fashion and jumped on a TREK; folks that was Lance Armstrong, 41 years old, who took the tape and sealed the deal. Lance, queried by the media at the Barajas International Airport, denied it, claims he was in Spain "on vacation with my bike." Later, while drinking a Michelob Ultra at the airport bar with Horner, also 41, paparazzi overheard LA offer, "I owed you for the Nevada City Classic bro. Won't ever forget what you did for me out there."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SGiA-D1r8Y

:banana:

[54ny77]

Horner clearly listened to Chris Carmichael on how to get it done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SImQOH5E9Qo

Oh and look, Serotta content!

:p

[gianni]

I suppose we will know more soon... maybe?

http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/09/16/inenglish/1379359771_845932.html

[cachagua]

"Keystone Cops meets Joe McCarthy".

Thank you.

[velotel]

Anyone who's been on this forum for awhile probably already knows I could care less about doping. Outside of that, for me all of you who are immediately calling into question his performance because you have some belief that obviously he and anyone else who wins a race has doped really need to get a grip on life. You ever hear of anything called innocent until....?

I thought he was terrific. First time I've ever seen a racer so obviously enjoying himself. Smiling while doing those insane climbs! There's a guy who likes riding a bike and likes racing. More power to him. A ray of brilliant light in a world too often buried in seriousness.

And his age, awesome. Just awesome. Rewriting the rules. Didn't watch it on tv because it wasn't on here and I'm not much of a watcher but whenever I run across vids of this race, I'll click on them just to see him and the others throwing all they have at each other. That was one terrific race.

I love these so-called experts saying his bar is too wide, his helmet too big. Who cares, works for him. Lots of people think wide bars are better. Apparently true for him. If I had money to toss away on stuff I'd probably try some wider bars just to see for myself. And some narrower bars. Even try a bigger helmet 'cept I don't wear one so that's out.

Here's to Horner, may he be the first in a long line of honest and entertaining riders enjoying what they do. And here's to the others who never said quit, gentlemen all of them. Hell of a race, hell of a spectacle.

The only reason I hope like hell he's clean is because if anything turns up, all the vultures just waiting to say I told you so and start clawing away at a great sport and some amazing riders will instantly leap to life. If no doping shows up, maybe this race will drive a stake through their silly hopes of being once again wonderfully self-righteous.

For me, whether they did or they didn't, great race. Thank you gentlemen.

[oldpotatoe]

Anyone who's been on this forum for awhile probably already knows I could care less about doping. Outside of that, for me all of you who are immediately calling into question his performance because you have some belief that obviously he and anyone else who wins a race has doped really need to get a grip on life. You ever hear of anything called innocent until....?

I thought he was terrific. First time I've ever seen a racer so obviously enjoying himself. Smiling while doing those insane climbs! There's a guy who likes riding a bike and likes racing. More power to him. A ray of brilliant light in a world too often buried in seriousness.

And his age, awesome. Just awesome. Rewriting the rules. Didn't watch it on tv because it wasn't on here and I'm not much of a watcher but whenever I run across vids of this race, I'll click on them just to see him and the others throwing all they have at each other. That was one terrific race.

I love these so-called experts saying his bar is too wide, his helmet too big. Who cares, works for him. Lots of people think wide bars are better. Apparently true for him. If I had money to toss away on stuff I'd probably try some wider bars just to see for myself. And some narrower bars. Even try a bigger helmet 'cept I don't wear one so that's out.

Here's to Horner, may he be the first in a long line of honest and entertaining riders enjoying what they do. And here's to the others who never said quit, gentlemen all of them. Hell of a race, hell of a spectacle.

The only reason I hope like hell he's clean is because if anything turns up, all the vultures just waiting to say I told you so and start clawing away at a great sport and some amazing riders will instantly leap to life. If no doping shows up, maybe this race will drive a stake through their silly hopes of being once again wonderfully self-righteous.

For me, whether they did or they didn't, great race. Thank you gentlemen.

Good for you Hank, I agree......

[FlashUNC]

Anyone who's been on this forum for awhile probably already knows I could care less about doping. Outside of that, for me all of you who are immediately calling into question his performance because you have some belief that obviously he and anyone else who wins a race has doped really need to get a grip on life. You ever hear of anything called innocent until....?

I thought he was terrific. First time I've ever seen a racer so obviously enjoying himself. Smiling while doing those insane climbs! There's a guy who likes riding a bike and likes racing. More power to him. A ray of brilliant light in a world too often buried in seriousness.

And his age, awesome. Just awesome. Rewriting the rules. Didn't watch it on tv because it wasn't on here and I'm not much of a watcher but whenever I run across vids of this race, I'll click on them just to see him and the others throwing all they have at each other. That was one terrific race.

I love these so-called experts saying his bar is too wide, his helmet too big. Who cares, works for him. Lots of people think wide bars are better. Apparently true for him. If I had money to toss away on stuff I'd probably try some wider bars just to see for myself. And some narrower bars. Even try a bigger helmet 'cept I don't wear one so that's out.

Here's to Horner, may he be the first in a long line of honest and entertaining riders enjoying what they do. And here's to the others who never said quit, gentlemen all of them. Hell of a race, hell of a spectacle.

The only reason I hope like hell he's clean is because if anything turns up, all the vultures just waiting to say I told you so and start clawing away at a great sport and some amazing riders will instantly leap to life. If no doping shows up, maybe this race will drive a stake through their silly hopes of being once again wonderfully self-righteous.

For me, whether they did or they didn't, great race. Thank you gentlemen.

I take the other side of the coin. Nearly to a man, every Grand Tour winner dating back to LeMond has either been caught or had some connection to doping.

Now I'm supposed to believe the oldest rider ever to win a Grand Tour -- whose previous best is only a Top Ten -- did it clean? After allegedly being identified as Rider #15 in USADA's report on Lance where Rider #15 admits to EPO use in 2005? After he's spent a number of years on doped teams? After his total change of tune about doping the second he joined Lance in the Comeback? Never mind that Horner spent supposedly the prime of his career racing crits in the U.S.?

Oh, and he doesn't have a contract for next year and is riding for his professional life. (That's certainly a strong incentive to take risks.)

I've seen enough of these guys shout from the rooftops they're clean, only to come crashing down when the real truth comes out.

I don't let it affect my enjoyment of the racing. Paris-Roubaix is still my favorite race of the year. I still love the Monuments and the lesser classics.

But as long as guys of Horner's generation continue to win races -- Fast Freddy Rodriguez winning U.S. Nationals this year as another great example -- I'm skeptical the sport has really cleaned itself up.

Call it self-righteous if you want to. But from where I sit, any other viewpoint totally ignores everything that's happened in the last two decades of the sport and is, quite frankly, naive.

[StephenCL]

I couldn't help but put my .02 cents in...I think we are all underestimating Chris specifically when it comes to climbing.

I think that age plays much less of an issue when climbing as it does in any other element of cycling.

If you take a look at most of the "hill climb" related races across NA, I think you will find historically that these are won by older, mature and very skinny dudes.

The ability to be at VO2 MAX (Zone 5) for extended periods of time is something that builds and builds over the years and as you develop your anaerobic capacity. It is this capacity that is utilized during the high mountains..

It is not the fast twitch exposive power required to win a sprint, or the constant power required to win a tt...it is much more about oxygen consumption and utilization.

Chris has shown tremendous capability for a very, very long time. He has always been held back by one team, or another. For one reason or another.

I still remember him in his Nutrafig dreadlock days.....he was likely the best rider not in Europe back in those times..

I am thrilled for him!

Stephen

[Joe Bob]

No one escapes the USADA....

[Rueda Tropical]

Fool me once...

I'm with Bike Snob on the subject:

Sweet sweaty Jesus nuts, could we just give this whole f**king sport to North Korea already and be done with it? It's obvious they have an unquenchable thirst for the dregs of Western sport:

Dennis Rodman can have McQuaid's job. It couldn't get anymore absurd then it already is.

[Fixed]

Good for him with all the crashes he has had in the past ,
I wish him well in the future
Cheers :)

[572cv]

Anyone who's been on this forum for awhile probably already knows I could care less about doping. Outside of that, for me all of you who are immediately calling into question his performance because you have some belief that obviously he and anyone else who wins a race has doped really need to get a grip on life. You ever hear of anything called innocent until....?

I thought he was terrific. First time I've ever seen a racer so obviously enjoying himself. Smiling while doing those insane climbs! There's a guy who likes riding a bike and likes racing. More power to him. A ray of brilliant light in a world too often buried in seriousness.

And his age, awesome. Just awesome. Rewriting the rules. Didn't watch it on tv because it wasn't on here and I'm not much of a watcher but whenever I run across vids of this race, I'll click on them just to see him and the others throwing all they have at each other. That was one terrific race.

I love these so-called experts saying his bar is too wide, his helmet too big. Who cares, works for him. Lots of people think wide bars are better. Apparently true for him. If I had money to toss away on stuff I'd probably try some wider bars just to see for myself. And some narrower bars. Even try a bigger helmet 'cept I don't wear one so that's out.

Here's to Horner, may he be the first in a long line of honest and entertaining riders enjoying what they do. And here's to the others who never said quit, gentlemen all of them. Hell of a race, hell of a spectacle.

The only reason I hope like hell he's clean is because if anything turns up, all the vultures just waiting to say I told you so and start clawing away at a great sport and some amazing riders will instantly leap to life. If no doping shows up, maybe this race will drive a stake through their silly hopes of being once again wonderfully self-righteous.

For me, whether they did or they didn't, great race. Thank you gentlemen.


I'm on board with this sentiment. + another one.

[93legendti]

41 years old. No matter what he is (or isn't) on, still amazing.

[soulspinner]

41 years old. No matter what he is (or isn't) on, still amazing.

Damn straight

[Joe Bob]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/10312406/Vuelta-a-Espana-champion-Chris-Horner-will-seek-compensation-over-missed-doping-test.html

Horner and Radio Shack gonna sue....

[93legendti]

Raul Ibanez is currently three home runs away from having the most home runs by a 41-year old. Maybe it's the year of the 41 yr old. :)

[merlincustom1]

Fixed, nice to see you again.

[harlond]

Now I'm supposed to believe the oldest rider ever to win a Grand Tour -- whose previous best is only a Top Ten -- did it clean? After allegedly being identified as Rider #15 in USADA's report on Lance where Rider #15 admits to EPO use in 2005? After he's spent a number of years on doped teams? After his total change of tune about doping the second he joined Lance in the Comeback? Never mind that Horner spent supposedly the prime of his career racing crits in the U.S.?

Oh, and he doesn't have a contract for next year and is riding for his professional life. (That's certainly a strong incentive to take risks.)
I'm skeptical of everybody, including the second-place finisher who was (excluding bonuses) less than 30 seconds behind Horner, and I think such skepticism is fully justified. But the facts you cite here are little more than speculation, innuendo, and guilt by association. I'm skeptical of those things, too. For example, even if Horner is Rider #15 who admitted to doping 8 years ago, that doesn't mean he's doping now.

I don't know why we can't all wait until there's some hard facts pertinent to the particular rider and the particular race before we accuse the winner of just about every race there is of doping. Maybe draw a line between justifiable skepticism and rank speculation.

[#campyuserftw]

To not "wonder" about Horner, or hold some level of "skepticism" would be illogical, and ask one to remain aloof of known PED use within cycling for the past two decades, and other professional sports. I'd like to hear LeMond's perspective of Horner's Vuelta, though LeMond, with a bike frame deal, may now remain neutral towards the peloton.

Cyclists who are very successful are the ones who we doubt the most, or, due to their popularity, we seem to defend them the most; we often believe or disbelieve, doubt, or defend, based more on our emotions, than known facts.

[54ny77]

I wonder if the waiter spit on my entree the other night after I suggested to him, politely yet with a hint (just a hint) of sarcasm, that after an hour or so since ordering it would be nice to actually eat dinner.

It sure tasted good though at first blush. :rolleyes:

[#campyuserftw]

I wonder if the waiter spit on my entree the other night after I suggested to him, politely yet with a hint (just a hint) of sarcasm, that after an hour or so since ordering it would be nice to actually eat dinner.

It sure tasted good though at first blush. :rolleyes:

He probably did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LLny5slQvE

:beer:

[FlashUNC]

I'm skeptical of everybody, including the second-place finisher who was (excluding bonuses) less than 30 seconds behind Horner, and I think such skepticism is fully justified. But the facts you cite here are little more than speculation, innuendo, and guilt by association. I'm skeptical of those things, too. For example, even if Horner is Rider #15 who admitted to doping 8 years ago, that doesn't mean he's doping now.

I don't know why we can't all wait until there's some hard facts pertinent to the particular rider and the particular race before we accuse the winner of just about every race there is of doping. Maybe draw a line between justifiable skepticism and rank speculation.

You're right, there's no hard proof. But I think it takes a far greater leap of faith to think Horner -- who's never even been on a podium at a Grand Tour -- has done something on bread and water that Anquetil, Hinault, Merckx, Bartali, Bobet or other giants in the sport's history couldn't do. Can an athlete peak at 41 when no one else in a century of Grand Tours has been able to do something similar?

It's sad, but this is the result of having two decades of racers who cry wolf. I'm not singling out Horner with my view either.

Paris-Roubaix is appointment viewing for me every year. And I think Cancellara is doping. Same with Tommeke.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy the races. But if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

[rice rocket]

But if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...

Is it a dog? :p