Richard Sachs on E-Bay

[Kevin]

Its not mine, but there is a Richard Sachs on E-Bay. It has Campy Record and is a 51 cm.

Kevin

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7209123629&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

[e-RICHIE]

it's 46cm, not 51cm.

[NAHBS]

Its not mine, but there is a Richard Sachs on E-Bay. It has Campy Record and is a 51 cm.

Kevin

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7209123629&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

Hey, thats the same bike I saw in Austin a few months back at the Crit. 11 -12 year old girl riding it...What a bargain!!!!

DW

[Len J]

it's 46cm, not 51cm.

that headbadge....what were you thinking?

Younger/crazier days?

Inquiring mnds and all that.

Len

[e-RICHIE]

that headbadge....what were you thinking?

Younger/crazier days?

Inquiring mnds and all that.

Len

that was the pre '81 look.

[djg]

it's 46cm, not 51cm.

ok, maybe a stretch, but any sense of the top tube? I know a short ... er, petite woman who is looking for a ride and might find this just the ticket.

[Redturbo]

that was the pre '81 look.

I like the post 81 Van Halen look :cool:

turbo

[e-RICHIE]

I like the post 81 Van Halen look :cool:

turbo


didn't they once make dress shirts?

[Len J]

that was the pre '81 look.

when you got off the mushrooms? (Just kidden, ya know)

LOL

Len

[dbrk]

This one is just a tad too big at 46cm for my wife Aimee. (Her HelloKitty Special Kirk is a sloping 43cm. She and Rocco the mini-dox are proportionally about the same size...)

As for that headtube decal, gosh, I love the old Sachs graphics. I think a totally modern, threadless style Sachs Red/Yellow racer would look VERY COOL with the old downtube decals and maybe this headtube decal too. Though it is also the case that we see the old dt decal and the now modernesque RS on the headtube about a year or two after this bike. But whether it's classic Van Husen from Sid Schleisingers' or Hilditch & Key from Jermyn Street, a Sachs too wears right. Think of it this way: Mozart will be 250 years old this January 27th and, dang, he's still soundin' pretty good. Pass the 'srooms, I'm in. This bike rocks, Amade.

dbrk

[Len J]

This one is just a tad too big at 46cm for my wife Aimee. (Her HelloKitty Special Kirk is a sloping 43cm. She and Rocco the mini-dox are proportionally about the same size...)

As for that headtube decal, gosh, I love the old Sachs graphics. I think a totally modern, threadless style Sachs Red/Yellow racer would look VERY COOL with the old downtube decals and maybe this headtube decal too. Though it is also the case that we see the old dt decal and the now modernesque RS on the headtube about a year or two after this bike. But whether it's classic Van Husen from Sid Schleisingers' or Hilditch & Key from Jermyn Street, a Sachs too wears right. Think of it this way: Mozart will be 250 years old this January 27th and, dang, he's still soundin' pretty good. Pass the 'srooms, I'm in. This bike rocks, Amade.

dbrk

I hear Ya........I was just needling Richie..........sometime I'd like to understand what he thinks the differences are between a bike like this made back in the early 80's and one he is making now...........I'd suspect he has learned much since then........understanding the differences would give an insight into the man.

Len

[JasonF]

Hmmmmmm, my wife is 5'3" it may just work...we can add another one to our stable :D :D :D

[e-RICHIE]

I'd suspect he has learned much since then
haven't we all?
understanding the differences would give an insight into the man.
see the film, Being There.

[dbrk]

Not to tout my friend who needs no approbation from the likes of me, but I have an out-of-a-zip-lock-bag 1984 Sachs with Super Record (from the redoubtable Paeng who, if you don't what this fellas' accomplished, you should look it up...amazing guy and nicest man you'd ever meet...plus he has a Confente in Manila...anyway...). When you look at 1984 it appears to be, well, perfect. But you can be sure that the Next Bike after the one that RS has just built will be better than the one he just finished because that's what it's all about. Most of that "improvement" can't easily or perhaps really be seen at all. But it is there and it will always be there, long after the bike has gone on to its next caretaker. ( You'd treat a Breguet or Lange the same way.)

LenJ knows I know that he knows there was no foul. I was being honest: I would LOVE to see a new Sachs in Red with OLD school yellow decals and all the modern trim, including the black bits. That would be sumthin' for the ages.

dbrk

[Len J]

LenJ knows I know that he knows there was no foul.
dbrk

Without a doubt.

I just don't like to leave these things to assumptions....especially on the internet where subtle doesn't translate well.

It's all good.

Len

[Ginger]

A 46...hmmm...I was think'n that if that was a 51, the tt would be a touch long, but if that seat tube is only 46...I suppose I need the sta too to figure out if that bike would work for me...

[e-RICHIE]

A 46...hmmm...I was think'n that if that was a 51, the tt would be a touch long, but if that seat tube is only 46...I suppose I need the sta too to figure out if that bike would work for me...



get the serial number.
until then, it's moots.

[christian]

Looks like 46 on one side of the bb and 7015 on the other side.

I've emailed the seller - this one would fit Ivy...

- Christian

[e-RICHIE]

Looks like 46 on one side of the bb and 7015 on the other side.

I've emailed the seller - this one would fit Ivy...

- Christian

that frame has a 77 degree sta and a 51cm top tube.

[Len J]

77 degree sta .

Is that a typo.........I don'tthink I've ever seen a bike with a 77 degree STA???????

Len

[e-RICHIE]

Is that a typo.........I don'tthink I've ever seen a bike with a 77 degree STA???????

Len


yes you have! to make a 4' ??" rider pedal efficiently,
the sta gets proportionately steeper so that the same
fit position rules-of-thumb are achieveable. the saddle
has to "be" in the right place horizontally wrt the wheels
and pedals. that distance is minimal of small bicycles.
to achieve that, setback is lessened. or - the sta is more
upright. think of a frame without a seat tube and you'd
focus less on what the necessary angle really is.

[jerk]

yes you have! to make a 4' ??" rider pedal efficiently,
the sta gets proportionately steeper so that the same
fit position rules-of-thumb are achieveable. the saddle
has to "be" in the right place horizontally wrt the wheels
and pedals. that distance is minimal of small bicycles.
to achieve that, setback is lessened. or - the sta is more
upright. think of a frame without a seat tube and you'd
focus less on what the necessary angle really is.


well, as an alternative you could have opted for down-tube overlap, it's not that much worse than crank arm overlap which isn't that much worse than toe clip overlap right?

[Redturbo]

that frame has a 77 degree sta and a 51cm top tube.

Is that a typo, I've never seen eRichie state a sta or hta :no:

turbo

[OldDog]

The secret is out as to the mystery of Sach's ride....he uses angels!

[Len J]

yes you have! to make a 4' ??" rider pedal efficiently,
the sta gets proportionately steeper so that the same
fit position rules-of-thumb are achieveable. the saddle
has to "be" in the right place horizontally wrt the wheels
and pedals. that distance is minimal of small bicycles.
to achieve that, setback is lessened. or - the sta is more
upright. think of a frame without a seat tube and you'd
focus less on what the necessary angle really is.

Learn something every day......makes perfect sense.

Thanks

Len

[e-RICHIE]

Is that a typo, I've never seen eRichie state a sta or hta :no:

turbo


the pre 1981 logs have all sorts of notations
that are no longer germaine. why? because
after 1983 i switched to this bad boy:

[OldDog]

Would a Sachs unicycle handle as well as a Sach bicycle? Do away with the front center and eleminate the toe overlap, crank and dt overlap.

[Grant McLean]

The secret is out as to the mystery of Sach's ride....he uses angles!



Cleaning out the hard-drive today, I found this:


-gee

[Kirk Pacenti]

think of a frame without a seat tube and you'd
focus less on what the necessary angle really is.

This is exactly the way I explained STA to clients during my ABG daze.. er, days.

I was amazed to see how many people just knew they "needed" a 74.5* STA, yet had their sadle slammed all the way back on a 35mm offset post!
...go figure...

[Grant McLean]

This is exactly the way I explained STA to clients during my ABG daze.. er, days.

I was amazed to see how many people just knew they "needed" a 74.5* STA, yet had their sadle slammed all the way back on a 35mm offset post!
...go figure...

Kirk,

But doesn't seat tube angle affect front center as well? I don't think that
I'm telling you something you don't know. There are handling issues as
well at fit issues. Some designers use a shallower/steeper angle to
adjust where the balance lies, yes? Of course i'd be suspect of the 'real'
reason a customer would tell a framebuilder what angles to use. They likely
only _think_ they know why a particular number "must" be a value, and may
not be seeing th 'big' picture.

_gee

[Serpico]

Cleaning out the hard-drive today, I found this:


-gee


http://www.thewavemag.com/images/articles/12001-13000/12460.jpg

[Kirk Pacenti]

Kirk,

But doesn't seat tube angle affect front center as well? I don't think that
I'm telling you something you don't know. There are handling issues as
well at fit issues. Some designers use a shallower/steeper angle to
adjust where the balance lies, yes? Of course i'd be suspect of the 'real'
reason a customer would tell a framebuilder what angles to use. They likely
only _think_ they know why a particular number "must" be a value, and may
not be seeing th 'big' picture.

_gee


Of course, it's all related. But if you are using a 35mm offset post with the sadle shoved all the way back, there is something VERY wrong!

The later is what I decided was the real issue. My feeling was that (big) guys simply couldn't come to grips with a "race" bike needing a 72.5* STA.

[Grant McLean]

Of course, it's all related. But if you are using a 35mm offset post with the sadle shoved all the way back, there is something VERY wrong!

The later is what I decided was the real issue. My feeling was that (big) guys simply couldn't come to grips with a "race" bike needing a 72.5* STA.

Kirk,
To make a seperate point here...
don't you think there are riders who have
their seat too far back?

Some guys I ride with who have their seat that far back just
seem obsessed with getting it even further back.
Remember that Steve Bauer paris-roubaix bike?

Gee

[e-RICHIE]

Some guys I ride with who have their seat that far back just
seem obsessed with getting it even further back.
Remember that Steve Bauer paris-roubaix bike?

Gee


that was an event specific design.

[Grant McLean]

that was an event specific design.

yes, and the event was: "being obsessed with setback!"

-gee

[Kirk Pacenti]

e-R beat me to the punch. That was an event specific design. The goal being a more comfortable (lower back and kidney saving) ride over the cobles.

As far as guys being obsessed with getting further back, I haven't run into that.

[David Kirk]

If I can throw my 1.8 cents in here...........I know what I do and suspect that other builders do this too. I figure out where the hands, butt and feet of the rider need to be and then I design the bike to fit properly underneath them. Doing this will generate a seat angle but I don't really start with a seat angle in mind.

Dave

[Kirk Pacenti]

If I can throw my 1.8 cents in here...........I know what I do and suspect that other builders do this too. I figure out where the hands, butt and feet of the rider need to be and then I design the bike to fit properly underneath them. Doing this will generate a seat angle but I don't really start with a seat angle in mind.

Dave


Yup. I also (as you prolly do) design for the components to be used, sadle, post, bar, stem, etc.

[e-RICHIE]

word up on that imho bro

[Grant McLean]

If I can throw my 1.8 cents in here...........I know what I do and suspect that other builders do this too. I figure out where the hands, butt and feet of the rider need to be and then I design the bike to fit properly underneath them. Doing this will generate a seat angle but I don't really start with a seat angle in mind.

Dave

I'm not being very articulate.

I know two top canadian riders that have wacky set backs.
They cannot be convinced (by me, big surprise!) that they are odd.
One is way forward, the other is way back.

What i'm trying is say is, sure you build the dude that perfect custom.
Six months later, you see him on a group ride, and the saddle is two
inches farther back than how you set him up, that's why you see
seats slammed back on the post.

What i'm saying is you can put the perfect numbers together for a
custom, but if the racer wants something different, they just veto you
and move it back, regardless if it's a good idea or not. So when Kirk
says he sees bikes with seats slammed back on the post, I'm just
saying that it's not about what is a "right" fit, it's about rider perception
of what they "like".

-Gee

[Len J]

If I can throw my 1.8 cents in here...........I know what I do and suspect that other builders do this too. I figure out where the hands, butt and feet of the rider need to be and then I design the bike to fit properly underneath them. Doing this will generate a seat angle but I don't really start with a seat angle in mind.

Dave

That even makes sense to me.........

Len

[David Kirk]

I'm not being very articulate.

I know two top canadian riders that have wacky set backs.
They cannot be convinced (by me, big surprise!) that they are odd.
One is way forward, the other is way back.

What i'm trying is say is, sure you build the dude that perfect custom.
Six months later, you see him on a group ride, and the saddle is two
inches farther back than how you set him up, that's why you see
seats slammed back on the post.

What i'm saying is you can put the perfect numbers together for a
custom, but if the racer wants something different, they just veto you
and move it back, regardless if it's a good idea or not. So when Kirk
says he sees bikes with seats slammed back on the post, I'm just
saying that it's not about what is a "right" fit, it's about rider perception
of what they "like".

-Gee

No builder can control what the owner does with a bike after they get it. I once saw a Serotta I built with the saddle tilted down at about 20° and the drop bars flipped upside down. Go figure.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

So when Kirk
says he sees bikes with seats slammed back on the post, I'm just
saying that it's not about what is a "right" fit, it's about rider perception
of what they "like".

-Gee


my flower -
but isn't life like that? you know what to do.
good advice is easy to come by. the doctor
tells you what to do and what not to eat. a
teacher learns you stuff so you can stay out
of harm's way. when a skilled builder like
kirk-issimo builds a frame to a design that
he prescribes as "right", yet his client may
throw a saddle into the wrong zip code, it
could be the client that needs adjustin' rather
than the saddle.



bananas.

[manet]

No builder can control what the owner does with a bike after they get it. I once saw a Serotta I built with the saddle tilted down at about 20° and the drop bars flipped upside down. Go figure.

Dave

http://www.bicycletrader.com/images/GreenBottecchiaAd483.JPG

[Grant McLean]

my flower -
but isn't life like that? you know what to do.
good advice is easy to come by. the doctor
tells you what to do and what not to eat. a
teacher learns you stuff so you can stay out
of harm's way. when a skilled builder like
kirk-issimo builds a frame to a design that
he prescribes as "right", yet his client may
throw a saddle into the wrong zip code, it
could be the client that needs adjustin' rather
than the saddle.



bananas.

mon petite shoe:
Bingo. that's zacktly what i'm sayin'

When I see a seat slammed back,
I don't jump to the conclusion that
the dude needs a custom frame with a
shallower seat tube. I think maybe the
guy needs an allen wrench adjustment to
his head, and then move the seat where
it "should" be.

Obviously there are guys and dolls
who need a big setback... but
just as many have their seat too far
back becuase they think it's "cool",
or some other fictional reason.

-gee

[e-RICHIE]

mon petite shoe:
When I see a seat slammed back,
I don't jump to the conclusion that
the dude needs a custom frame with a
shallower seat tube. I think maybe the
guy needs an allen wrench adjustment to
his head, and then move the seat where
it "should" be.
-gee


ah my penny loafer,
we do concur after all.

[Len J]

mon petite shoe:
Bingo. that's zacktly what i'm sayin'

When I see a seat slammed back,
I don't jump to the conclusion that
the dude needs a custom frame with a
shallower seat tube. I think maybe the
guy needs an allen wrench adjustment to
his head, and then move the seat where
it "should" be.

Obviously there are guys and dolls
who need a big setback... but
just as many have their seat too far
back becuase they think it's "cool",
or some other fictional reason.

-gee

Is setback just about leg measurements? or is it also about center of gravity placement over the bike?

I've seen two guys with basicially the same measurements with one guy being "Top Heavy" (A weightlifter) and the other very thin and therefor, compared to the first a higher % of his weight is in his lower body......each of these riders would have a different center of gravity.......Shouldn't one be more setback than the other to balance weight on the bike?

If this is a dumb question just slap me with the virtual 2 X 4

Thanks

Len

[manet]

ah my penny loafer,
we do concur after all.

allow me to help illustrate

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.tias.com/stores/ccvf/pictures/325c.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cache.tias.com/cgi-bin/showcase-item.cgi%3FitemKey%3D1922729061%26store%3D/stores/ccvf&h=215&w=300&sz=38&tbnid=cv5eHTumr0QJ:&tbnh=79&tbnw=111&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsnuff%2Bshoe%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%2 6lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[Grant McLean]

ah my penny loafer,
we do concur after all.

Since "chou" is french for cabbage,

why is calling someone "my little cabbage"
supposed to be endearing...
(must be lost in the translation)

E-Richie, I'll be sending you some cabbage soon.

-gee

[Kirk Pacenti]

mon petite shoe:
Bingo. that's zacktly what i'm sayin'

When I see a seat slammed back,
I don't jump to the conclusion that
the dude needs a custom frame with a
shallower seat tube. I think maybe the
guy needs an allen wrench adjustment to
his head, and then move the seat where
it "should" be.

Obviously there are guys and dolls
who need a big setback... but
just as many have their seat too far
back becuase they think it's "cool",
or some other fictional reason.

-gee


I'd never jump to that conclusion either. The specific example I was giving was based on a rider who's position was actually just about right. But, STA was was simply too steep to allow for the *normal* position of the sadle. He felt he "needed" the steep (74+*) STA on his 63cm frame because it was a "race" bike.


As for being "cool", it's hard to over-estimate the power of fashion on peoples perception of what they "need". The industry itself is largely to blame for this...promoting this geometry one year and that geometry the next!

[e-RICHIE]

As for being "cool", it's hard to over-estimate the power of fashion on peoples perception of what they "need". The industry itself is largely to blame for this...promoting this geometry one year and that geometry the next!



Fashion is fleeting. Style is timeless.
Coco Chanel

[jerk]

the modern "i"talian pro method demands that the custom frame be made so the proper saddle setback is achieved with the saddle slammed all the way back. it's the style yo.....

jerk

(and yes all these bikes except for one are "made to measure")

[e-RICHIE]

the modern "i"talian pro method demands that the custom frame be made so the proper saddle setback is achieved with the saddle slammed all the way back. it's the style yo.....

jerk

(and yes all these bikes except for one are "made to measure")



handsome bro.
single?

[Kirk Pacenti]

the modern "i"talian pro method demands that the custom frame be made so the proper saddle setback is achieved with the saddle slammed all the way back. it's the style yo.....

jerk

(and yes all these bikes except for one are "made to measure")

J-man,

When it comes to "what's right" I put little stock in what the pro's ride. I mean, just last year (maybe the year before?) the ENTIRE Liberty squad was riding the same size frame!

Aside from that, the Corretec looks pretty cool!

[jerk]

J-man,

When it comes to "what's right" I put little stock in what the pro's ride. I mean, just last year (maybe the year before?) the ENTIRE Liberty squad was riding the same size frame!


true that...but the gym teacher also made sure all his riders were the exact sime size!

[e-RICHIE]

true that...but the gym teacher also made sure all his riders were the exact sime size!


twenty one grams?

[Grant McLean]

I'd never jump to that conclusion either. The specific example I was giving was based on a rider who's position was actually just about right. But, STA was was simply too steep to allow for the *normal* position of the sadle. He felt he "needed" the steep (74+*) STA on his 63cm frame because it was a "race" bike.


Kirk,

I hear you. I've sold custom litespeeds you designed,
so I know you know what you are doing.
I thought it worthwhile to try to describe the "slam back" situation
you brought up, more fully. I just wanted to point out that seats
and bars end up in strange places for lots of reasons. End of rant.

Gee

[jerk]

twenty one grams?


sure. whatever this guy says. he's the tom steels of the silver screen.

[e-RICHIE]

Kirk,
bars end up in strange places for lots of reasons. End of rant.

Gee


around the corner from pastis?

[Kirk Pacenti]

around the corner from pastis?



"Rapture"

Toe to toe
Dancing very slow
Barely breathing
Almost comatose
Wall to wall
People hypnotised
And they're stepping lightly
Hang each night in Rapture

Back to back
Sacrailiac
Spineless movement
And a wild attack

Face to face
Sadly solitude
And it's finger popping
Twenty-four hour shopping in Rapture

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move too slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!

[e-RICHIE]

from Hogs 'n Heifers to C.B.G.B.

what a long strange trip, eh?!

[Kirk Pacenti]

from Hogs 'n Heifers to C.B.G.B.

what a long strange trip, eh?!


That was fun let's go round again!

[e-RICHIE]

That was fun let's go round again!

can't.
leather is taboo here and new wave is dead.

[Catulle]

Fashion is fleeting. Style is timeless.
Coco Chanel

Didn't he ride Mercier?

[e-RICHIE]

Didn't he ride Mercier?



he?
she had her own gig and the threads were
made in the 18th by "le petite mains", mais oui?

[Catulle]

he?
she had her own gig and the threads were
made in the 18th by "le petite mains", mais oui?

No wonder you dress in black and sprinkle No 5 upon thyself :D

[e-RICHIE]

No wonder you dress in black and sprinkle No 5 upon thyself :D


nothing is sacred?!

[manet]

he?
she had her own gig and the threads were
made in the 18th by "le petite mains", mais oui?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://troi.cc.rochester.edu/~tdip/LapinAgile.jpg&imgrefurl=http://troi.cc.rochester.edu/~tdip/where_to_stay_in_paris.htm&h=511&w=769&sz=97&tbnid=mNK07yL9CV8J:&tbnh=93&tbnw=141&hl=en&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3D18th%2Barrondissement%2B%26svnum%3D10 %26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[Catulle]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://troi.cc.rochester.edu/~tdip/LapinAgile.jpg&imgrefurl=http://troi.cc.rochester.edu/~tdip/where_to_stay_in_paris.htm&h=511&w=769&sz=97&tbnid=mNK07yL9CV8J:&tbnh=93&tbnw=141&hl=en&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3D18th%2Barrondissement%2B%26svnum%3D10 %26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

...Chester, ain't it?

[manet]

oui, oui

http://www.fascinationst.com/productImages/sku1572.gif

[manet]

YOWZA!

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gnam.arti.beniculturali.it/IVSeCultura/COCO.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gnam.arti.beniculturali.it/beaton.htm&h=686&w=539&sz=31&tbnid=yYF5mg5GwscJ:&tbnh=137&tbnw=107&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcoco%2Bchanel%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[manet]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wc.pdx.edu/chanel/misschanel.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.wc.pdx.edu/chanel/chanel.html&h=219&w=200&sz=30&tbnid=cq-ervZfvC8J:&tbnh=102&tbnw=93&hl=en&start=185&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcoco%2Bchanel%26start%3D180%26svnum%3 D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

biography lesson over.

[Grant McLean]

biography lesson over.

dude,

Does that mean i can change the channel?

-gee

[manet]

dude,

Does that mean i can change the channel?

-gee

back to QVC you go!

[Grant McLean]

back to QVC you go!

cool,

I think I saw some Praga purses on sale, maybe I'll git one
for the wife...

-gee

[e-RICHIE]

cool,

I think I saw some Praga purses on sale, maybe I'll git one
for the wife...

-gee



praga?
PRAGA????????

do the mckenzies have a third brother?

[manet]

cool,

I think I saw some Praga purses on sale, maybe I'll git one
for the wife...

-gee

W I F E !!! someone here, and i'm not naming names, is going to be most upset.

[Grant McLean]

praga?
PRAGA????????


Don't you know, Praga?

Like Guccie, Hermese, and Louie Vittons!

I gots me a Praga t-shirt on Canal steet last summer...

-gee

[Grant McLean]

W I F E !!! someone here, and i'm not naming names, is going to be most upset.

I'm Canadian...that's just an expression.

(but i don't know what you're talking about...)

-gee

[e-RICHIE]

Don't you know, Praga?

Like Guccie, Hermese, and Louie Vittons!

I gots me a Praga t-shirt on Canal steet last summer...

-gee

ah.
rolodex watches, etc.
mad painful.