Vuelta a Espana Stage 18 (Spoilers)

[chengher87]

Count the seconds back! This is close! Horner may have just won back the red jersey.

[Vientomas]

3 seconds.

[MattTuck]

Horner still 3 seconds back.

Would be awesome to see him win it!

[JStonebarger]

Go Chris!

[thwart]

Nibali must be crapping his pants.

Still, I think he remains the favorite to get to the top of the Angliru first...

[CunegoFan]

Nibali must be crapping his pants.

Still, I think he remains the favorite to get to the top of the Angliru first...

Barring three weeks of fatigue finally getting the best of Horner, I don't. Horner does really well on the steep stuff and it doesn't get much steeper than the Angliru. Horner is the strongest climber in the race.

Disregarding the Giro, Nibbles has often shown weakness at the end of multiple days of climbing. A meltdown on the Angliru would not be surprising.

Too bad Cancellara abandoned. This team is totally unprofessional. No wonder Bruyneel was frustrated.

[thwart]

Too bad Cancellara abandoned. This team is totally unprofessional. No wonder Bruyneel was frustrated.
I think he's trying to prepare himself for the world championship time trial and/or road race. I guess the question is how much do you sacrifice yourself in this situation for someone else.

Hope that doesn't hurt Horner too much.

[2wheelwill]

Horner rocks! :banana:

[MattTuck]

Horner rocks! :banana:

I hope he wins just so we have another American Grand Tour winner. Horner Bikes. The logo/head tube badge practically draws itself.

[CunegoFan]

I think he's trying to prepare himself for the world championship time trial and/or road race. I guess the question is how much do you sacrifice yourself in this situation for someone else.


Of course he is, but the team has an excellent chance of winning the Vuelta and the good of the team should come first. Three more days would not have hurt Canc's chances at the world's. He could have abandoned part way through Saturday's stage so it would not have even been three whole stages.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Go Chris!

. . . and change it to . . .

GO CHRIS!!

:banana::banana::banana:

BBD

[PQJ]

Is there such a thing as a 'mini-micro dose'?

[mistermo]

Is this being broadcast on Universal or any of the cable networks?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . to see if I could convince my buddy with cable TV to watch it instead of ride in the rain. It's on Universal Sports at 8-m EDT but our local Time Warner doesn't carry USports.

:crap:

BBD

[regularguy412]

Is this being broadcast on Universal or any of the cable networks?

I 'think' last Saturday or Sunday there was one hour summary on regular NBC around lunch time. Mebbe,,,, 1 pm EDT , Noon CDT.

I didn't watch. Had other stuff to do. :S

Might be something similar this weekend, but check local listings to be sure.

Mike in AR:beer:

[BumbleBeeDave]

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/with-two-summit-finishes-remaining-horner-edging-closer-to-vuelta-lead_302646

Even Nibbles is saying he can't hold him off.

This would be SOOOOOOOOOO schweet!

BBD

[FlashUNC]

Is there such a thing as a 'mini-micro dose'?

Considering this is something that's never been done in the history of cycling -- oldest rider to ever lead a Grand Tour, oldest rider to potentially win one, not to mention this would be his first grand tour victory at 41 -- I'm gonna go with the more things change, the more they stay the same...

[Keith A]

As much as I like Horner and would love to see him win, given all of the revelations lately...I gotta say his performance just seems "not normal".

[jeffreng58]

Nibali must be crapping his pants.

Still, I think he remains the favorite to get to the top of the Angliru first...

agree

[ultraman6970]

Keith you arent the only one but you have to consider a few things, the guy have been racing for other people all the time but maybe now, in pro everybody race for the star and even if you can win you have to play for the other guy so pretty he was stuck there as domestique till now.

Horner had a bad luck that was unbelievable, remember when he finish that stage a couple of years ago and he did not know where he was?

His knees (or knee?) had been bothering for years, and thats one of the reasons he was not a believable rider, why to race for him if he always have accidents or his knee was bothering him?

No idea of his palmares in europe but here at least he won a couple of short tours with nasty climbs, a lot more than what AS has done anyways.

He has been training like crazy monkey and finally he got the support needed, obviously he was going to shine.

Nobody is doping no more, obviously he was going to shine, the old guy is not a handicapped horse no more.

Doubt RS will hire horner or they would have done it, besides they have the two wuzzies and they will look like crap if the old man starts smoking them in the climbs and winning more races next season, I was Alonso I would bring horner, that team pretty much doesnt have a single worth to mention GC contenders at all.

Personally I believe he is clean, add that all my arguments and I feel happy for him you know, reminds me darn Zoetemelk, can you imagine that horner sticks it up to everybody and wins the worlds solo?

[rustychisel]

Keith you arent the only one but you have to consider a few things, the guy have been racing for other people all the time but maybe now, in pro everybody race for the star and even if you can win you have to play for the other guy so pretty he was stuck there as domestique till now.

etc
etc
etc




too much coolaid. Best back-off a little.

[BumbleBeeDave]

As much as I like Horner and would love to see him win, given all of the revelations lately...I gotta say his performance just seems "not normal".

. . . in today's climate that thought also comes up immediately to me. So I guess this would be sooooo schweet--until the drug tests results come back.

BBD

[FlashUNC]

I look at the evidence and am skeptical.

He's 41. He has no contract for next year, and he says he wants to ride for two more years with rumored numbers of $1 mln per year. If he's caught and suspended, well, his career is pretty much over anyways.

He's never finished higher than 9th in a Grand Tour.

He's allegedly the infamous Rider 15 who admitted to EPO use already.

His career in its latter stages is a who's who of teams on dope. Never mind that his tune about doping and testing immediately changed in public comments about Lance once he joined RadioShack.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Unfortunately, you make a lot of sense. Sigh. Everything to gain if he gets away with it and nothing to lose if he's caught. He just becomes another in the crowd of the caught and/or admitted.

It's truly unfortunate that any reasonably knowledgeable cycling fan has to be so skpetical these days of any exceptional performance. But after the last few years, what other choice do we have?

BBD

I look at the evidence and am skeptical.

He's 41. He has no contract for next year, and he says he wants to ride for two more years with rumored numbers of $1 mln per year. If he's caught and suspended, well, his career is pretty much over anyways. He's never finished higher than 9th in a Grand Tour.

He's allegedly the infamous Rider 15 who admitted to EPO use already.

His career in its latter stages is a who's who of teams on dope. Never mind that his tune about doping and testing immediately changed in public comments about Lance once he joined RadioShack.

[FlashUNC]

Unfortunately, you make a lot of sense. Sigh. Everything to gain if he gets away with it and nothing to lose if he's caught. He just becomes another in the crowd of the caught and/or admitted.

It's truly unfortunate that any reasonably knowledgeable cycling fan has to be so skpetical these days of any exceptional performance. But after the last few years, what other choice do we have?

BBD

I find it easier just to assume they're all doping.

That way I'm not disappointed down the line.

That being said, this could also just be the ride of his life against a thin Vuelta field and he's finally showing what he can do against clean competition after years of a doped peloton.

But I can't think of another pro athlete who's hit his peak at 41...

[Keith A]

...
It's truly unfortunate that any reasonably knowledgeable cycling fan has to be so skpetical these days of any exceptional performance. But after the last few years, what other choice do we have?I was talking to a riding buddy about this last Saturday, who is a long time cyclist and fan of the sport...and he commented that if Horner is doping, then he's done following any pro cycling. I too have had the same feelings about pro cycling. I started following cycling even before I started riding seriously and it has been very disappointing to learn how pervasive the cheating has been. I keep hoping that more riders are riding clean, but when you see "not normal" performances, it's hard to believe that they aren't doing some type of PEDs.

[Formulasaab]

It's truly unfortunate that any reasonably knowledgeable cycling fan has to be so skpetical these days of any exceptional performance. But after the last few years, what other choice do we have?
BBD

The tone of this discussion is far beyond skepticism. It is judgement.

I know that sounds harsh and judgmental in itself, but I'm tired of every discussion of a race finish devolving into the same regurgitated statements of dismay.

Adding the sentiment of "but I hope I'm wrong" does not eliminate nor moderate the statements of judgement made here. It only adds that the poster is non-committal and acknowledges that they have nothing but supposition to base their judgment on.

For my own part, I always remember that change is constant. Hasn't it been proven that no one rider always fulfills their expectations, even when those expectations are to continue a trend of failure?

[54ny77]

is eurosport feed down today? anyone know what time the race starts?

[cassa]

is eurosport feed down today? anyone know what time the race starts?

Stage is already started, but video not until 10, according to steephill.

[54ny77]

grathiath.

[FlashUNC]

The tone of this discussion is far beyond skepticism. It is judgement.

I know that sounds harsh and judgmental in itself, but I'm tired of every discussion of a race finish devolving into the same regurgitated statements of dismay.

Adding the sentiment of "but I hope I'm wrong" does not eliminate nor moderate the statements of judgement made here. It only adds that the poster is non-committal and acknowledges that they have nothing but supposition to base their judgment on.

For my own part, I always remember that change is constant. Hasn't it been proven that no one rider always fulfills their expectations, even when those expectations are to continue a trend of failure?

I'd be far more inclined to believe these guys if folks who weren't racing at the height of L'Affair Blood Dope weren't, I dunno, still at the front of the pack in the Vuelta, or winning the US Nat'l Championship for the fourth time (God, Fast Freddy, as one of the riders who finished was quoted as saying....anybody but him), or winning the Olympic gold in the road race last year.

Given that just about everyone has been proven to have been lying over the past twenty years -- and these guys are still winning races -- why should we believe anything any these guys say?

[Vientomas]

dayknawduh.

[GT2R]

Cheating in cycling goes back to the first time two people competed. It is part of the sport and there will always be someone willing to take the risk. As noted, he may not have much to lose as he is looking for a contract and needs to perform. At his age, the end is near.

The performance is pretty spectacular in light of his recent injuries too.

[firerescuefin]

The tone of this conversation has been sown and reaped. I like Chris...and am pulling for him. I wouldn't bet that his performance is clean.



The tone of this discussion is far beyond skepticism. It is judgement.

I know that sounds harsh and judgmental in itself, but I'm tired of every discussion of a race finish devolving into the same regurgitated statements of dismay.

Adding the sentiment of "but I hope I'm wrong" does not eliminate nor moderate the statements of judgement made here. It only adds that the poster is non-committal and acknowledges that they have nothing but supposition to base their judgment on.

For my own part, I always remember that change is constant. Hasn't it been proven that no one rider always fulfills their expectations, even when those expectations are to continue a trend of failure?

[PQJ]

The tone of this discussion is far beyond skepticism. It is judgement.


"Judgment" is defined as "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions." FlashUNC's cogent 'judgment' at 7:45am is spot on (atmo).

More grist for this mill here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-dello-sport-scrutinizes-horners-power-data-at-the-vuelta.

[thwart]

Well, more grist... or at least highlighted areas of controversy:

Indirect performance data calculations have sparked much debate and argument in recent times. Team Sky manager Dave Brailsford dismissed similar calculations during the Tour de France as pseudo science. However French sports physiologist Antoine Vayer is convinced power data and VAM can be used to indicate unnatural performances.

According to Dr. Ferrari the road surface, drafting from teammates and other riders, hairpins and the wind can greatly affect performance, power data and VAM. He claims on his 53x12 blog that road surfaces can cause a variation of 6-10%, while wind can have a similar affect.

Horner races with an SRM power metre and the SRM website has published data from stage 10 of the Vuelta, when Horner won alone on the Hazallanas climb. The data shows he produced 390 watts in the final 4.5km of the climb, significantly lower than the calculations by Gazzetta for the Peña Cabarga climb.

[laupsi]

Horner races with an SRM power metre and the SRM website has published data from stage 10 of the Vuelta, when Horner won alone on the Hazallanas climb. The data shows he produced 390 watts in the final 4.5km of the climb, significantly lower than the calculations by Gazzetta for the Peña Cabarga climb. [/I]

my gosh, to be able to pedal at that wattage and for it to be considered normal. there men and there are MEN! I am but a wee little boy! ;)

[54ny77]

If you have a race lasting longer than 4 hours, consult your doctor immediately.

[CunegoFan]

As noted, he may not have much to lose as he is looking for a contract and needs to perform. At his age, the end is near.


Not quite true. He wants to be a team manager or DS after he retires. A current UCI rule prevent that for riders who test positive after the rule was enacted.

He wants a million a year contract, so maybe he thinks that makes the risk worth it. His points will be valuable, but I am not sure if they are worth a million a year. Some teams will worry about the chances of him popping a positive, which will decrease the number of offers. He has also proven susceptible to injury.

[harlond]

I think it's been a long time since pointing out that one is skeptical is useful. We're all skeptical. I still enjoy the racing, skeptical though I am, and I'd enjoy it more if all of us skeptics treated our skepticism as no more worthy of comment than gravity.

BTW, gravity sucks.

[Formulasaab]

"Judgment" is defined as "the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions." FlashUNC's cogent 'judgment' at 7:45am is spot on (atmo).

Curiously, the reply that included the entire definition entry for "judgement" has been removed?
However, it included more than just that one definition that is useful for refuting my post.

When I wrote "judgement", I was using it as a synonym to determination, decree, and adjudication.

That's still a bit confusing though. Perhaps I'd have been less vague if I'd used "prejudgment" instead. That's more along the lines of what I was talking about.

Another way of saying what I meant is to suggest that what's being done here is taking doubt and following it to a conclusion. Doubt can never be conclusive, as its base is in not being able to know the truth.

It's just my opinion anyway. IMHO, ATMO, take it for what its worth.

[GT2R]

Not quite true. He wants to be a team manager or DS after he retires. A current UCI rule prevent that for riders who test positive after the rule was enacted.

He wants a million a year contract, so maybe he thinks that makes the risk worth it. His points will be valuable, but I am not sure if they are worth a million a year. Some teams will worry about the chances of him popping a positive, which will decrease the number of offers. He has also proven susceptible to injury.

This IS a great point. I wish the doping over the years wasn't true and hope Horner never has. It is more than amazing to see the Power data and realize what all these guys are doing with their bodies.

Tomorrow I will ride again as a mere mortal.

[PQJ]

Curiously, the reply that included the entire definition entry for "judgement" has been removed?
However, it included more than just that one definition that is useful for refuting my post.

When I wrote "judgement", I was using it as a synonym to determination, decree, and adjudication.

That's still a bit confusing though. Perhaps I'd have been less vague if I'd used "prejudgment" instead. That's more along the lines of what I was talking about.

Another way of saying what I meant is to suggest that what's being done here is taking doubt and following it to a conclusion. Doubt can never be conclusive, as its base is in not being able to know the truth.

It's just my opinion anyway. IMHO, ATMO, take it for what its worth.

Yes, I edited it shortly after posting as I thought it was, in its entirety, longwinded and not really relevant. Original cut and paste job has been pasted below. I'll speak for myself and say I'm not prejudging Chris (or at least, not intending to), just being skeptical of his performance given the last 20 or so years of the sport.


judg·ment
ˈjəjmənt/
noun
1.
the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.
"an error of judgment"
synonyms: discernment, acumen, shrewdness, astuteness, sense, common sense, perception, perspicacity, percipience, acuity, discrimination, reckoning, wisdom, wit, judiciousness, prudence, canniness, sharpness, sharp-wittedness, powers of reasoning, reason, logic; More
an opinion or conclusion.
plural noun: judgements; plural noun: judgments
"they make subjective judgments about children's skills"
synonyms: assessment, evaluation, appraisal; More
a decision of a court or judge.
"the Supreme Court upheld the judgment of the Alberta Court of Appeal"
synonyms: verdict, decision, adjudication, ruling, pronouncement, decree, finding; More
2.
a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.
"the crash had been a judgment on the parents for wickedness"

[cnighbor1]

for the next two stages 19th and 20th (forget the Sunday stage has that is never raced by leaders) does Horner have to worry about a serious climb or course
thanks
charles