The New Serotta?

[weatherman]

http://saratogaframeworks.com/

Interesting. Looks like they are doing some work for Tomac.

[MattTuck]

Some of those bikes in the gallery look really good. Why weren't those on the serotta website????

They kind of kept the same "S"... slightly modified.

[54ny77]

well fancy them apples, eh?

http://saratogaframeworks.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/signature_cycles_legend_angled_stripes_2.jpg?w=620&h=336

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif

[Louis]

I wish all the best to the workers there, but I sure can't say the same for ownership / management.

[cmg]

sounds like they took some of the suggestions from the what ben should do next threads when his departure was announced. best of luck to them. it would be cool to see samples of the shops new works.

[54ny77]

wow, they cleaned up the website big time, slashed prices really big (pronto f& f&f and a ck headset for $3300), and it looks like they're makin' serottas and contract stuff.

good for them. i wish them the best of success, and most importantly continued jobs for the guys who actually make the stuff.

everything else is just noise.

[tch]

...the Meivici. Anyone else? They claim to be building Ottrots, so carbon is there somewhere -- but other than that everything else Serotta is ti.
?

[pbarry]

Is this the new white label site? Not the IF style start up I am still looking forward to.

[regularguy412]

...the Meivici. Anyone else? They claim to be building Ottrots, so carbon is there somewhere -- but other than that everything else Serotta is ti.
?

If they are building some in carbon, I wonder if they somehow kept the Poway facility or if they are sourcing custom tubes somewhere else.


Mike in AR:beer:

[FlashUNC]

The blog is particularly interesting about the Serotta name and DCG and Saratoga's relationship.

[MattTuck]

...the Meivici. Anyone else? They claim to be building Ottrots, so carbon is there somewhere -- but other than that everything else Serotta is ti.
?

I'm not sure. They are featuring this video on their website (which I'm surprised I missed whenever it first came out)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBqHLNGl3xQ#t=60

[54ny77]

meivici in stock geos for 4500 f&f. now that's some good market pricing for a top shelf rig. just for yucks, a stock parlee z3 frame is ~$6k, and an sl4 tarmac is $3500.

http://serotta.com/meivici-sg/

this thing is downright smokin':

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MeiVici-SG-Large.jpg

and all the other standard geo bikes are here.

http://serotta.com/standard-geometry-bicycles-framesets/

[rustylion]

The employees deserve only the best.

The owners deserve everything that is coming to them.

Karma.

I wish all the best to the workers there, but I sure can't say the same for ownership / management.

[rustylion]

So, one minute the Serotta craftsmen are making the best and most expensive frame sets in the world. The next they are making dumbed-down and cheap contract bikes for other brands and private label.

In the spirit of Saratoga's 150th anniversary of thorougbred racing, I see this as connecting the race horse to the plowshare.

First, let me say the craftsmen at Serotta are the best both as craftsmen and as human beings. I still have the deepest respect for them. They should be building bikes and they do deserve the best. In that light, this is a good move for them. They still have jobs doing what they love to do.

But, now let's look more closely at the ownership of Serotta or whoever owns the Saratoga Springs facility. BTW: at this point, I think these owners are different. It was not long ago that Brian Case publicly touted his marvelous opportunities at Serotta. I guess that did not go so well for him because then shortly thereafter, there was lots of public hype about the marvelous opportunties of Brian's merger with Divine Cycling Group International. Now, with even less time passing, I guess Brian thinks we have all forgotten his previous annoncement so he can now trumpet his new and improved formula for his Saratoga Springs investment.

I speculate that all this is pretty simple: a real estate investor trying to get top dollar out of a real estate investment he made in 2012. Spin the story, buy time and watch the value of the property go up. In Brian's recent actions, I see no loyalty to the industry and little desire to care for the Serotta owners that he was, until recently, excited about.

Aren't we smarter than this?

[rnhood]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, didn't he buy the company on the brink of bankruptcy? While you might be right in that someone else got the better deal (e.g., the bank, Ben, or whoever), why would he not be expected to make changes that might rescue the company? Should he keep running the company with the same management and idealism that have driven it to the brink of bankruptcy?

I certainly wish them success but the path ahead will not be easy. They do seem to be putting the building blocks in place first. The new website is better than anything Serotta ever had and retaining the craftsman that define the quality is also a feather in the cap. A Mevici frame set for $4500 should also get some interest. However, with virtually no dealer distribution its the marketing and sales that will be the challenge. Personally, I do not think they will make it but I hope that I am wrong. I continue to wish them well.

[jpw]

The warranty can be transferred from the original owner to a new owner. Surely a plus even the haters will find hard to trash.

[MattTuck]

The warranty can be transferred from the original owner to a new owner. Surely a plus even the haters will find hard to trash.

Just shows that they don't expect the owners to keep their bikes for very long. Probably due to substandard materials and production methods ;)

[jpw]

Just shows that they don't expect the owners to keep their bikes for very long. Probably due to substandard materials and production methods ;)

what can i say?

[jpw]

the website has a similarish feel to the Signature Cycles website, with the black and red colors, don't you think? The same 'hand'?

[WickedWheels]

So, one minute the Serotta craftsmen are making the best and most expensive frame sets in the world. The next they are making dumbed-down and cheap contract bikes for other brands and private label.

In the spirit of Saratoga's 150th anniversary of thorougbred racing, I see this as connecting the race horse to the plowshare.

First, let me say the craftsmen at Serotta are the best both as craftsmen and as human beings. I still have the deepest respect for them. They should be building bikes and they do deserve the best. In that light, this is a good move for them. They still have jobs doing what they love to do.

But, now let's look more closely at the ownership of Serotta or whoever owns the Saratoga Springs facility. BTW: at this point, I think these owners are different. It was not long ago that Brian Case publicly touted his marvelous opportunities at Serotta. I guess that did not go so well for him because then shortly thereafter, there was lots of public hype about the marvelous opportunties of Brian's merger with Divine Cycling Group International. Now, with even less time passing, I guess Brian thinks we have all forgotten his previous annoncement so he can now trumpet his new and improved formula for his Saratoga Springs investment.

I speculate that all this is pretty simple: a real estate investor trying to get top dollar out of a real estate investment he made in 2012. Spin the story, buy time and watch the value of the property go up. In Brian's recent actions, I see no loyalty to the industry and little desire to care for the Serotta owners that he was, until recently, excited about.

Aren't we smarter than this?

Dead on, from someone "in the know".

To answer your question, though... No, most are NOT smarter than this. If it's spun as "rescuing the company" or "doing what needs to be done to get through a hard time" most will buy into it, especially if it gives them justification to purchase a product from what used to be a high-end brand for less money. Most will buy into whatever story is sold to them if it's packaged with a cost-reduction. Cannondale shutting down the facility that's manufacturing CAAD9's and moving production to China? That's OK, because the new frames will be 20 grams lighter and $50 cheaper. People are still buying them and sleeping well at night. Well, maybe not the people that were employed at the original factory.... This will be no different after this Saratoga Frame Works sales pitch tis over.

Last winter I shot my mouth off on here saying that the Bradway involvement won't end well. I said that I used to work with the guy, know the personality, talked to people "in the know" and guessed that it would lead to a factory closing and the brand turning into a Motobecane or something of the sort. You were on the other side of the fence and came down on me, wrote a thread about people with a negative attitude towards the rescue of the brand, etc. Most seemed to agree with you and some even bought bikes. Now you're the "people in the know" and most won't listen because the rescue spin is more attractive than the "watch out" warnings... plus it promises savings.

I think the best way to say "I told you so" is to start your own thing. Start small with your loyal core clientele and build slowly. When you're left standing and DCG is going through their umpteenth merger you can shake your head, say I told you so, and go back to selling your bikes.

[WickedWheels]

The warranty can be transferred from the original owner to a new owner. Surely a plus even the haters will find hard to trash.

It's not a lifetime warranty, though. 5 years, 10 for custom. Now it's not a Serotta warranty... it's a Saratoga warranty. Will they be around to honor it?

[MattTuck]

what can i say?

That I'm hilarious?

Seriously, I think that it is a step in the right direction. I think that after all that has happened, they need to rebuild some trust with the potential customers. People are not going to pull the trigger on a high end frame if they believe the company isn't going to be around in 6 or 12 months. This is one step in rebuilding the perception that the company will be around.

I find the whole story fascinating from a business perspective. I do hope that the guys working there are able to keep their jobs.

[Walter]

It sounds like things are pretty complicated at DCG:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.UjG0mkjn-os

[charliedid]

I'm guessing that Ben and Bill will introduce the world to "Rusty Bicycleworks" by the end of the week...

;)

[druptight]

I apologize if this is a rehash of one of the millions of other posts regarding this debacle (sorry, I've only read about half of those posts), but it sounds from reading this webpage as though the facility is not owned by DCG, only the brand name is. If this is true, who actually owns the facility and everything inside it? Please feel free to point me elsewhere if this is a huge painful rehash.

[FlashUNC]

I apologize if this is a rehash of one of the millions of other posts regarding this debacle (sorry, I've only read about half of those posts), but it sounds from reading this webpage as though the facility is not owned by DCG, only the brand name is. If this is true, who actually owns the facility and everything inside it? Please feel free to point me elsewhere if this is a huge painful rehash.

That's what struck me as interesting.

Makes me think we will see Saratoga Racing Cycles in 2014.

[Nooch]

I apologize if this is a rehash of one of the millions of other posts regarding this debacle (sorry, I've only read about half of those posts), but it sounds from reading this webpage as though the facility is not owned by DCG, only the brand name is. If this is true, who actually owns the facility and everything inside it? Please feel free to point me elsewhere if this is a huge painful rehash.

Brian Case and Bradway Capital.

[laupsi]

...and no one, at least none of the current owners, are interested in keeping the Serotta name after 2013. this could be the that final nail in the coffin.

[druptight]

Details about who owns what are in that link above, which truly shows what a cluster this whole thing is.

Sounds like some people got in way over their heads from an investing standpoint, bit off more than they could chew and are now backpedaling.

[William]

Dead on, from someone "in the know".

To answer your question, though... No, most are NOT smarter than this. If it's spun as "rescuing the company" or "doing what needs to be done to get through a hard time" most will buy into it, especially if it gives them justification to purchase a product from what used to be a high-end brand for less money. Most will buy into whatever story is sold to them if it's packaged with a cost-reduction. Cannondale shutting down the facility that's manufacturing CAAD9's and moving production to China? That's OK, because the new frames will be 20 grams lighter and $50 cheaper. People are still buying them and sleeping well at night. Well, maybe not the people that were employed at the original factory.... This will be no different after this Saratoga Frame Works sales pitch tis over....



= American craftsman/employees laid off. Production moved to China to employ Chinese workers at a much lower wage. Bikes might be "20 grams lighter and $50 cheaper", but the much larger profit margin will be pocketed by the owners. If folks are fine with that they will buy into it and sleep well at night....while the laid-off former American employees will be awake wondering what they are going to do next to make ends meet.

In my book, you do what you can. In some cases you don't have much of a choice, some things just aren't made here anymore. Not so with bikes, you have more choices than ever to support American craftsmen/women and get a high quality product.






William

[charliedid]

Brian Case and Bradway Capital.

Seems to be the obvious answer...

But who knows?

[druptight]

Seems to be the obvious answer...

But who knows?

No - that's the answer: http://www.bicycleretailer.com/indus...d#.UjG0mkjn-os

Serotta is being "bifurcated." The brand name will remain the property of DCG. But its upstate manufacturing facility is being renamed Saratoga Frameworks, and is now owned by Bradway Financial, the company that bought Serotta last year. Case, Bradway's managing partner, is overseeing the facility, which is being run by the same team that has been in place for years; Case also remains a director of DCG.

[rice rocket]

I like how you all bang the drum of "the value is in the craftsmen, don't offshore it, keep American jobs, etc.", but then bitchbitchbitch when they ditch a dead brand and keep the craftsmen and DON'T offshore the manufacturing.

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too...but....seriously guys.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[MattTuck]

Details about who owns what are in that link above, which truly shows what a cluster this whole thing is.

Sounds like some people got in way over their heads from an investing standpoint, bit off more than they could chew and are now backpedaling.

From the article: The original intent of DCG was to roll up several small companies, aiming for a combined annual revenue of about $10 million, where institutional financing becomes more available. Now that DCG's revenues are comprised only of Mad Fiber's and the value of the Serotta brand name, $10 million is a long way away. But Case said it's too early to think about more acquisitions.

The lesson here is to invest in businesses with sound business plans. If your investment thesis is predicated upon 'institutional financing' something is very wrong and you should run the other way.

[druptight]

From the article:

The lesson here is to invest in businesses with sound business plans. If your investment thesis is predicated upon 'institutional financing' something is very wrong and you should run the other way.

Agreed - and if you're going to invest in troubled brands that require large infusions of cash to get straightened out, don't invest in 3 of them at once if you can't afford it. Buy them one at a time, stabilize them so that they're profitable, then look for the next target.

[William]

I like how you all bang the drum of "the value is in the craftsmen, don't offshore it, keep American jobs, etc.", but then bitchbitchbitch when they ditch a dead brand and keep the craftsmen and DON'T offshore the manufacturing.

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too...but....seriously guys.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

If they can keep the crew on, keep it at home, and make a go of it....I'm happy for the crew. More power to the craftsmen and best of luck!




William

[CunegoFan]

Interesting that Blue has five employees. Is that one at the top, one to fetch coffee, one graphic designer, one to order from China, and one to do sales and marketing?

[bobswire]

If they can keep the crew on, keep it at home, and make a go of it....I'm happy for the crew. More power to the craftsmen and best of luck!




William

+1 Looks to me they are going in the right direction, still making great frames at competitive pricing. All that other stuff is for insiders I guess.

[laupsi]

I like how you all bang the drum of "the value is in the craftsmen, don't offshore it, keep American jobs, etc.", but then bitchbitchbitch when they ditch a dead brand and keep the craftsmen and DON'T offshore the manufacturing.

I wish I could have my cake and eat it too...but....seriously guys.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

agreed, have said it before, much on these threads is said as the result of personal relationships w/previous owners.

there's a general yearning for keeping the skilled folks employed, but there's as louder call for the demise of the company that employs them.

[happycampyer]

Interesting that Blue has five employees. Is that one at the top, one to fetch coffee, one graphic designer, one to order from China, and one to do sales and marketing?i think that the one who fetches coffee is also the graphic designer, and the one who does the sales and marketing also orders from china. the other two are family members of the one at the top who are padding the payroll...

[avalonracing]

Interesting that Blue has five employees. Is that one at the top, one to fetch coffee, one graphic designer, one to order from China, and one to do sales and marketing?

:hello:

[avalonracing]

i think that the one who fetches coffee is also the graphic designer, and the one who does the sales and marketing also orders from china. the other two are family members of the one at the top who are padding the payroll...

Actually, this might be more accurate.

[Keith A]

From the article on Bicycle Retailer, it sounds like Blue is in some serious trouble and has no connections with DCG...which is what I speculated earlier since Blue never made it onto DCG's website.

[William]

agreed, have said it before, much on these threads is said as the result of personal relationships w/previous owners.

there's a general yearning for keeping the skilled folks employed, but there's as louder call for the demise of the company that employs them.

Obviously you can't have it both ways. I hope for the employees sake that they make a go of it and are profitable to keep them doing what they do. I don't have to like how the current owners made a go of it so far, but I don't wish that they fold up. Now, if they layoff the current workforce and take everything overseas...





William

[BCS]

meivici in stock geos for 4500 f&f. now that's some good market pricing for a top shelf rig. just for yucks, a stock parlee z3 frame is ~$6k, and an sl4 tarmac is $3500.

http://serotta.com/meivici-sg/

this thing is downright smokin':

http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/MeiVici-SG-Large.jpg

and all the other standard geo bikes are here.

http://serotta.com/standard-geometry-bicycles-framesets/

Back to bikes....isn't the Z3, by definition, a custom frame? I know they have stock sizing but is custom geometry an upcharge?
Nice looking Serotta but I would prefer straight seatstays. IMHO, the curved stays look dated

[R2D2]

It sounds like things are pretty complicated at DCG:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.UjG0mkjn-os

Like I said earlier Blue was next.

[texbike]

This may actually work for Saratoga. I'm impressed that they already have a contract gig! As much as I dislike how messy this has been and everything that has transpired, it seems that Case is getting rid of the baggage that led to the problems in the first place and streamlining the company to be competitive. They're going to be another Waterford-style company. The question is if the contract-building pie is big enough for multiple players in that space.

As for Blue, who cares? It's just another marketing company with custom painted, generic Chinese carbon platforms (not that there's anything wrong with that). Besides, it looks like they invested too many of their "R&D" dollars on creating the ugliest designs and paint schemes possible.

Texbike

[Richard]

As to the bikes, I agree that the curved seatstay is dated and never was to my liking. That said, the pricing seems good. I find myself scratching my head over the geometry of the stock Meivici and Legend and can't get my head around how it would handle (at least in my size - 54). The Pronto, on the other hand strikes me as a killer bike with geometry that would produce an exciting bike. And the price seems right.

As to the business side of things, I hope the craftsmen keep working, but I find I have little sympathy for Mr. Serotta. I have a CSI from the era when that meant something - quality, innovation and geometry that flat out worked. Years of mismanagement and dilution of the brand to the point where any POS would be built under the guise of "it's custom and we build to meet the needs of the customer" led to a deserved and predictable bankruptcy.

[laupsi]

As to the bikes, I agree that the curved seatstay is dated and never was to my liking.

I'm reminded of an old adage; "if it's not broken, don't fix it". Got a bike w/that curved seat stay. pretty sure the ride is the sum of all parts; that bike is the best riding bike I've been on!

[Richard]

I don't doubt that the bike performs and performs well with the curved stays, just that they are not my cup of tea. Just as the swoopy stays on the bikes Dave Kirk makes probably work as advertised, if I had the good fortune to have Dave make me a frame, I would ask for straight stays. They just look better to me.

[Nooch]

The Pronto, on the other hand strikes me as a killer bike with geometry that would produce an exciting bike. And the price seems right.



it's pretty awesome. not gonna lie about it.

[helmut]

The employees deserve only the best.

The owners deserve everything that is coming to them.

Karma.

Hopefully the new leaders find a more successful business model for Serotta/Saratoga than the former ones did. No matter how you spin it, Serotta was not being led in a sustainable direction.

[jpw]

Bikes, and business.

On bikes;

"Saratoga Frameworks is building titanium road bike frames for a leading global brand and is prototyping a mixed material gravel road bike model that will debut at the Interbike trade show as part of the re-launch of an iconic American brand."

Sounds like an interesting model to be developing. Certainly a niche that's growing quite quickly. Seems like a smart move,...at least to moi.

p.s. the domain name was registered on 7th September.

[rustylion]

Now, that is sound advice and right on target. Business 101. Because it is a fundamental principle, I bet there must have been people telling them the same prior to the merger but apparently no one was listening.

Agreed - and if you're going to invest in troubled brands that require large infusions of cash to get straightened out, don't invest in 3 of them at once if you can't afford it. Buy them one at a time, stabilize them so that they're profitable, then look for the next target.

[ryker]

They wanted a "too big to fail" strategy. Let's face it: a lot of people get rich this way (not be confused with value creation).

[weiwentg]

It sounds like things are pretty complicated at DCG:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.UjG0mkjn-os

That article says that Brian Case's position (he's the Bradway guy who's on DCG's board) is that DCG's acquisition of Blue never actually closed, and it sounds on other boards like DCG never turned over the capital they promised.

That sounds ... weasely. Blue has been with DCG longer than Serotta. Wonder how it is that DCG signs contracts and somehow gets out of delivering on what they promised.

[cachagua]

There must have been people telling them [this fundamental principle] but apparently no one was listening. . .


And isn't that what we love about the humans!

[rustylion]

At this moment, I am not sure exactly what I said when I "came down on you." If it was unkind or disrespectful, I am sorry. Hindsight is clear sight and it seems that what you predicted was correct. Maybe I should have been istening more carefully.

If, however, you and I simply disagreed on what the future would hold for Serotta, then, I was writing from a solid belief that we were heading towards a realizable and achievable future. Multiple company boards, owners and investors had approved a detailed plan that we were successfully executing on.

We all know that every business needs investment and working capital. Turnarounds need even more. Every capable investor knows this. But, you can't win a war without bullets and you can't turn around a company without capital. Serotta, Blue, Mad Fiber, Bradway, Lake Rudd and Divine Cycling have just shown us that lesson once again.

From June to now, what a rapid change in the stories being told about and from the above companies. I wonder what is next?

Dead on, from someone "in the know".

Last winter I shot my mouth off on here saying that the Bradway involvement won't end well. I said that I used to work with the guy, know the personality, talked to people "in the know" and guessed that it would lead to a factory closing and the brand turning into a Motobecane or something of the sort. You were on the other side of the fence and came down on me, wrote a thread about people with a negative attitude towards the rescue of the brand, etc. Most seemed to agree with you and some even bought bikes. Now you're the "people in the know" and most won't listen because the rescue spin is more attractive than the "watch out" warnings... plus it promises savings.

I think the best way to say "I told you so" is to start your own thing. Start small with your loyal core clientele and build slowly. When you're left standing and DCG is going through their umpteenth merger you can shake your head, say I told you so, and go back to selling your bikes.

[siegfried08]

It sounds like things are pretty complicated at DCG:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.UjG0mkjn-os

Hoooooooo boy. My team ended our sponsorship with Blue last year. Man, am I happy about that (especially as one of the guys in charge in sponsorship).

[dd74]

I sure hope a few university business schools are cluing into this (and other) Serotta/Saratoga Frameworks threads. The lessons here are immeasurable.

[soulspinner]

I'm reminded of an old adage; "if it's not broken, don't fix it". Got a bike w/that curved seat stay. pretty sure the ride is the sum of all parts; that bike is the best riding bike I've been on!

Ya, it may look dated to some, but the real purpose is to enhance the ride. It works.

[1centaur]

I sure hope a few university business schools are cluing into this (and other) Serotta/Saratoga Frameworks threads. The lessons here are immeasurable.

I doubt that they are, but agree that a "case" study would be instructive. It would work best if those involved were willing to fill in the gaps.

Among the lessons - the importance of contracts, the increased importance of people/personalities at smaller companies, the value of a business that's not making money, and the roots of long-term failure can lie in success.

[Nooch]

looks like this facebook post is hinting at what the Pronto has become:

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1385650_450297791757782_747211867_n.jpg

[Germany_chris]

Interesting head badge

[David Kirk]

I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave

[echelon_john]

Because, as they've shown over and over, they're wicked smaht. (sarcastobanana dancing here)


I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave

[LegendRider]

Yikes! What a soap opera...

http://saratogaindecline.blogspot.com/2013/08/media-darling-serotta-cycles-will-cease.html

[sales guy]

I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave


I'm wondering if they are just using the Saratoga frameworks as an ad for the frame building end for other companies. And keeping Serotta for themselves. Who knows.
Maybe Ben had a way out with the Serotta name in his sales contract?

[Z3c]

I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave

Not so sure it has that much value these days; she is kinda' wearing a red A..

Saratoga Frameworks; not very catchy nor smooth off the tongue. Might be a hit with the 17 folks out there(here) who understand the legacy implications; after they buy frames it will be crickets once again..

[rice rocket]

I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave

I thought they don't own the rights?

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.Uk19LCSkq8o

Serotta is being "bifurcated." The brand name will remain the property of DCG. But its upstate manufacturing facility is being renamed Saratoga Frameworks, and is now owned by Bradway Capital, the company that bought Serotta last year. Case, Bradway's managing partner, is overseeing the facility, which is being run by the same team that has been in place for years; Case also remains a director of DCG.

[SamIAm]

Maybe Ben had a way out with the Serotta name in his sales contract?

Doubt it.

I know a good bit about the soap opera that is Serotta and I still think the brand has value, in the right hands of course.

[David Kirk]

I thought they don't own the rights?

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/industry-news/2013/09/12/divine-cycling-group-turmoil-continues-blue-block-serotta-divided#.Uk19LCSkq8o

I just read that line a number of times and still don't really get it. Who owns the Serotta brand and artwork?

Dave

[oldpotatoe]

I just read that line a number of times and still don't really get it. Who owns the Serotta brand and artwork?

Dave

Ask Ben..

[nicrump]

an enve fork crown. wow.

[Z3c]

Ask Ben..

I think you should ask him, seeing as how you two are tight and all.. Maybe you could apply to be a SF dealer??

[Z3c]

an enve fork crown. wow.

Yea, I thought they owned a carbon fact..ooops, never mind..

This is starting to remind me of watching Micheal Jordan play baseball; you could just tell it wasn't going to be a long-term thing..

[oldpotatoe]

I think you should ask him, seeing as how you two are tight and all.. Maybe you could apply to be a SF dealer??


Why the heat?..I'll bet more than a few here, particularly those who worked for/with him, are still in contact. Kirk asked the question, I'm thinking some converse privately.

[Z3c]

Why the heat?..I'll bet more than a few here, particularly those who worked for/with him, are still in contact. Kirk asked the question, I'm thinking some converse privately.

Sorry, not intended as "heat" in any way, just humor..

[Nooch]

oof, not this s-storm again...

From what I understand the company (Saratoga Frameworks) is distancing themselves from the image/company/name/person.

They're the people, the craftsmen, that made that brand what it was -- a rose by any other name....

Designers responsible for the successes of the company, bikes like the Pronto (which I still think, if it came to fruition a few months sooner, could have saved the company) are still creating awesome freaking bikes. And maybe without their hands tied, they can get to the graphic/aesthetic appeal that will do more for people than the old S-brand, that everyone said needed an update anyway.

The head badge is a lot cooler, in my eyes, than the S that all the kids used to draw on their notebooks in elementary school (or at least, when I was in elementary school...)

I've heard there will be a booth at the New England Builders Ball -- with CX bikes and race bikes... now that's exciting, to me at least. I'd always thought the next place to go with the Pronto was to make a Pronto CX.... maybe they're listening..

[oldpotatoe]

Sorry, not intended as "heat" in any way, just humor..

yuk yuk

[nighthawk]

Just saw that SF will be at the New England Builder's Ball in PVD tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing the bikes up close.

New England Builder's Ball - Exhibitor List (http://newenglandbuildersball.com/?page_id=9)

[oldpotatoe]

Just saw that SF will be at the New England Builder's Ball in PVD tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing the bikes up close.

New England Builder's Ball - Exhibitor List (http://newenglandbuildersball.com/?page_id=9)

well, regardless of the drama with the original owner and all..still the same craft-people there, still make one hellava nice all ti frame....

Worth a look.

from the website

"Saratoga Frameworks, staffed by the same craftsmen who built Serottas for decades, is proud to continue the production of Serotta’s current fully custom and standard geometry models."

[David Kirk]

Why the heat?..I'll bet more than a few here, particularly those who worked for/with him, are still in contact. Kirk asked the question, I'm thinking some converse privately.

Nope - he and I were in infrequent but consistent contact up until about 2-3 years ago and then things went quiet. I would welcome hearing from him but think he's got bigger things going on.

I will say this - I have no idea what really happened behind the scenes and how workers were treated in recent years but I can say that during my time there - 1989 - 1999 - that workers were treated well and fairly. I'm sure there are a few folks that feel they got the short end of the stick but I think it's fair to say that the majority feel like they were paid well and treated fairly. During my time with Serotta the ownership and running of the company changed hands a few times and the only time I was treated like crap was when folks other than Ben were calling the shots.

I consider Ben a friend and feel that I, and the others that worked with me during my time there, were treated well. Things may have changed............and maybe they didn't. I don't know and it's frankly none of my business.

The one thing I do know is that this is just sad plain and simple.

Dave

[Fixed]

Nice looking bike
Cheers

[jr59]

Nope -

The one thing I do know is that this is just sad plain and simple.

Dave


If nothing else. ^^^THIS^^^^ is very true

[laupsi]

I'd always thought the next place to go with the Pronto was to make a Pronto CX.... maybe they're listening..

oh god, I'm in trouble if they do. someone tell my wife to look the other way!

[FlashUNC]

Times like these I'm reminded of the movie Cocktail.

Everything ends badly, otherwise, it wouldn't end.

[Elefantino]

Times like these I'm reminded of the movie Cocktail.

Everything ends badly, otherwise, it wouldn't end.
Except when that movie ended, it was a good thing.

[FlashUNC]

Except when that movie ended, it was a good thing.

Probably didn't appreciate St Elmo's Fire either, you philistine. :banana:

[54ny77]

i'm reminded of a great phrase: "if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt."

[Z3c]

Except when that movie ended, it was a good thing.

It can't end soon enough; this could only get worse by being on OWN..

[CNY rider]

i'm reminded of a great phrase: "if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt."

Clearly you don't live in upstate NY.

[EDS]

Clearly you don't live in upstate NY.

It does get confusing when Uncle Billy is so heavy set he needs a "bro" and Aunt Gerie has more facial hair than Uncle Billy.

[nighthawk]

well, regardless of the drama with the original owner and all..still the same craft-people there, still make one hellava nice all ti frame....

Worth a look.


This is true... I guess what I'm really interested in is hearing from them in person what their thoughts are moving forward after Serotta's demise.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Don't any of you guys ever go for a ride any more? :eek: :rolleyes:

BBD

[FlashUNC]

Don't any of you guys ever go for a ride any more? :eek: :rolleyes:

BBD

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003361617/252686668_nonotrly001_answer_2_xlarge.jpeg

[dd74]

i'm reminded of a great phrase: "if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt."
Hmmm, now where and to whom can I use a line like this?

[palincss]

I wonder why they would move away from one of the most valuable things they have - the name Serotta?

dave

I thought the folks operating the factory didn't own the name any more. A bit like Richard Schwinn not owning the Schwinn name and so using Waterford.

[Keith A]

I thought the folks operating the factory didn't own the name any more. A bit like Richard Schwinn not owning the Schwinn name and so using Waterford.I'm pretty sure that DCG owns the rights to the Serotta name. I also read somewhere that they were not going to be using the name for a little while and let things settle down.

[old fat man]

I'm pretty sure that DCG owns the rights to the Serotta name. I also read somewhere that they were not going to be using the name for a little while and let things settle down.

Brian and I rode bikes the other day and he confirmed, they own the name, they fired Ben due to his "skills" at hurting the financial stability of the company, and that they are currently focusing on contract building (Tomac, Planet X, potentially Merlin). They are out from under the California facility, not sure how, or what that means...

Also, they just built the last meivici with supplies they had. It's outdated technology and too expensive to re-engineer to keep up with the plethora of carbon options from bigger brands. Their focus is ti, and according to Brian, the most successful times for serotta were the years building paramounts for schwinn, so they are aiming to get back to more contract work to support their own custom output.

[laupsi]

Brian and I rode bikes the other day and he confirmed, they own the name, they fired Ben due to his "skills" at hurting the financial stability of the company, and that they are currently focusing on contract building (Tomac, Planet X, potentially Merlin). They are out from under the California facility, not sure how, or what that means...

Also, they just built the last meivici with supplies they had. It's outdated technology and too expensive to re-engineer to keep up with the plethora of carbon options from bigger brands. Their focus is ti, and according to Brian, the most successful times for serotta were the years building paramounts for schwinn, so they are aiming to get back to more contract work to support their own custom output.

was there any speak regarding the Serotta brand and if they're going to keep producing the Ottrott, Legend, Fondo, Pronto going into the distant future?

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . that their ending the carbon line isn't because they don't have a production facility any more. :) :rolleyes:

BBD

[rnhood]

Brian and I rode bikes the other day and he confirmed, they own the name, they fired Ben due to his "skills" at hurting the financial stability of the company, and that they are currently focusing on contract building (Tomac, Planet X, potentially Merlin). They are out from under the California facility, not sure how, or what that means...

Also, they just built the last meivici with supplies they had. It's outdated technology and too expensive to re-engineer to keep up with the plethora of carbon options from bigger brands. Their focus is ti, and according to Brian, the most successful times for serotta were the years building paramounts for schwinn, so they are aiming to get back to more contract work to support their own custom output.

Good to hear this and I wish them well. I understand that Serotta never owned the California facility and were just contracting them under some joint agreement. So getting out from under them could have been relatively easy.

[Keith A]

old fat man -- Thanks for the info. So if the MeiVici is dead and gone, and the Serotta name is on hold...I wonder why they have done anything to update their website?

[old fat man]

was there any speak regarding the Serotta brand and if they're going to keep producing the Ottrott, Legend, Fondo, Pronto going into the distant future?

Not really. Just that the serotta name was not what it used to be and Ben is on a time out. I can tell Brian is deeply passionate about the brand and wishes the experience with blue and mad fiber had never come up. He's been riding serottas for more than a decade.

[laupsi]

Not really. Just that the serotta name was not what it used to be and Ben is on a time out. I can tell Brian is deeply passionate about the brand and wishes the experience with blue and mad fiber had never come up. He's been riding serottas for more than a decade.

good stuff, thanks for the info! :)

[sstern]

I would caution buying from the new Serotta. Their unilateral decision to cancel the lifetime warranty on Serotta's purchased previously does not speak well to their commitment to customer satisfaction. Some say this is even an illegal move. Personally speaking i would not trust a company that made a move like this. I have loved my Serotta but would no longer trust the company producing them

[GregL]

More bits and pieces of the story keep coming out...

http://redkiteprayer.com/2013/10/the-storm-before-the-calm/

- Greg

[dd74]

Sadly, I think it might be this:

However, if he is unable to secure the Serotta intellectual property and both it and Saratoga Frameworks go Pan Am...

I wish them luck, but I'd feel much more comfortable with IF, Firefly or Waterford at this point.

[jpw]

More bits and pieces of the story keep coming out...

http://redkiteprayer.com/2013/10/the-storm-before-the-calm/

- Greg

more muckraking. jesus.

[KidWok]

Wow...that situation is completely FUBAR'ed...

Tai

[WickedWheels]

The topic is getting played out and everything that could've been said has been.

Let the topic and the brand die already Anyone who's ever dealt with the current management in the past (vendors, sales reps, ex-employees) saw the writing on the wall in May of 2012 when Bradway took over. The inevitable will happen and it's all going to end. Leaving a deposit with this company is crazy. Ordering a bike may get you a good product but with no support. Any bike shop that's investing in their inventory is fooling themselves or trying to salvage current Serotta overstock by throwing good money after bad. I hope the staff is looking for other employment.

I think I'm going to bring in a new line into my shop, though... Kelly Bedford, if they're interested.

[BumbleBeeDave]

"The challenge here is that emotions are running high and I can’t find anyone willing to take Case at his word." . . . What a surprise.

"While no one will say it publicly, there are plenty of people who are whispering that Case and Overbay haven’t treated people ethically or honorably." . . . Ditto. Big surprise. (Insert sarcasm emoticon here.)

BBD

[yankees1]

The topic is getting played out and everything that could've been said has been.

Let the topic and the brand die already Anyone who's ever dealt with the current management in the past (vendors, sales reps, ex-employees) saw the writing on the wall in May of 2012 when Bradway took over. The inevitable will happen and it's all going to end. Leaving a deposit with this company is crazy. Ordering a bike may get you a good product but with no support. Any bike shop that's investing in their inventory is fooling themselves or trying to salvage current Serotta overstock by throwing good money after bad. I hope the staff is looking for other employment.

I think I'm going to bring in a new line into my shop, though... Kelly Bedford, if they're interested.

He or they are looking for new dealers and now build in all materials. :)

[laupsi]

"The challenge here is that emotions are running high and I can’t find anyone willing to take Case at his word." . . . What a surprise.

"While no one will say it publicly, there are plenty of people who are whispering that Case and Overbay haven’t treated people ethically or honorably." . . . Ditto. Big surprise. (Insert sarcasm emoticon here.)

BBD

don't know any of the players personally but the question that keeps coming to me is why would Ben and Rusty "go to bed" w/this guy Chase if he has such a tainted reputation? was the Serotta of old that desperate?

[Keith A]

don't know any of the players personally but the question that keeps coming to me is why would Ben and Rusty "go to bed" w/this guy Chase if he has such a tainted reputation? was the Serotta of old that desperate?I have no inside knowledge at all, but I'm not sure if Case had a tainted reputation previous to this deal. I'm also pretty sure that Serotta was that desperate to try and keep the doors open.

[Jeff N.]

...the Meivici. Anyone else? They claim to be building Ottrots, so carbon is there somewhere -- but other than that everything else Serotta is ti.
?The Meivici was made by M. Lopez in San Diego (Poway) at "Serotta Composites", but that facility is, to my knowledge, out of the picture now. So I'm thinkin' you won't be seeing the Meivici anymore.

[Ahneida Ride]

more muckraking. jesus.

Would you substitute the name of any other religious person here?
I would request you show the creator of Christianity the same
respect that you would show any other religion.

[avalonracing]

Would you substitute the name of any other religious person here?
I would request you show the creator of Christianity the same
respect that you would show any other religion.

How do you know that he wouldn't?
Anyway, if it bothers you you may just want to turn to him the other cheek.

[fiamme red]

http://www.bikebiz.com/index.php/news/read/gluskin-townley-partners-with-ben-serotta-and-bill-watkins/015528

Elliot Gluskin, managing partner of the Gluskin Townley Group has announced that Ben Serotta, former owner and Bill Watkins the former CEO of Serotta Competition Bicycles, have formed a professional consulting alliance.

“Jay Townley and I are very pleased to announce the formation of a consulting alliance with Ben Serotta and Bill Watkins. We are confident our combined individual talents and skill sets will provide enhanced synergistic consulting tools for our current and future clients,” Gluskin said in making the announcement...If Serotta had used some of these "enhanced synergistic consulting tools" over the years, maybe they wouldn't be in such a sorry state now.

[xjahx]

Whenever someone asks why Ben or Bill allowed Bradbury or others into the picture, we should simply read the words of G. Smith from IF. He is well spoken and understands the business:

Bradbury Capital/Brian Case et. al, didn't buy the company from Ben, they bought the assets from the bank after they'd been placed in receivership.

Lots of good people invested in Serotta over the years, in several iterations, and they all lost their money... hopefully they at least got a nice bike out of it.

Ben's a really nice guy, and was nothing but a gentlemen to me when I came on the scene and bought IF over five years ago. I wish him well, but he had many at bats, and at some point, you get cut from the team if you don't produce for the person(s) bank-rolling the payroll. Some walk away gracefully on their own terms, and others hang on until they get cut.

It's easy for folks to sit back and make statements, pass judgement, what-have-you, especially in the internet age... everyone has a voice and a platform. The moral of this story is that of you want to control your own destiny, don't take other people's money.

Ben lost control of the company in the 90s, when he brought others on for financial support. You do not have job security if you are dependent on the dollars of others. End of story.

[Mike Lopez]

The Meivici was made by M. Lopez in San Diego (Poway) at "Serotta Composites", but that facility is, to my knowledge, out of the picture now. So I'm thinkin' you won't be seeing the Meivici anymore.

Actually, we didn't make the regular Meivici in Poway. We made the tubes, lugs, stays, forks, and sent them as a kit to Saratoga where they were machined and bonded into framesets.

The frame that we did make completely, less paint, in Poway was the Meivici AE. I believe we did a couple hundred of those before the plug was pulled on that project.

We sent a lot of parts to Saratoga over the years and they could still be working from old inventory to fill a limited number of orders. There will be no more parts heading to Saratoga from Poway. They burned the bridge with extreme prejudice....

As far as Ottrotts and other mixed material bikes are concerned they could be getting the tubing from a number of sources. Round tubes are a commodity item in the composites industry. Molded shapes are different story.

[sg8357]

How do you know that he wouldn't?
Anyway, if it bothers you you may just want to turn to him the other cheek.

I don't Blasphemy is covered by that article, so I'd apologize.

Anyway, business dealings are covered under the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

[jpw]

Actually, we didn't make the regular Meivici in Poway. We made the tubes, lugs, stays, forks, and sent them as a kit to Saratoga where they were machined and bonded into framesets.

The frame that we did make completely, less paint, in Poway was the Meivici AE. I believe we did a couple hundred of those before the plug was pulled on that project.

We sent a lot of parts to Saratoga over the years and they could still be working from old inventory to fill a limited number of orders. There will be no more parts heading to Saratoga from Poway. They burned the bridge with extreme prejudice....

As far as Ottrotts and other mixed material bikes are concerned they could be getting the tubing from a number of sources. Round tubes are a commodity item in the composites industry. Molded shapes are different story.

did you make the carbon bb lug/ shell units?

[pbarry]

If Serotta had used some of these "enhanced synergistic consulting tools" over the years, maybe they wouldn't be in such a sorry state now.


The new venture might have legs if their clients do the opposite of what is recommended. Like the Seinfeld episode where George does the opposite of his first instinct in all situations, and turns his life around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RerJWv5vwxc

[BumbleBeeDave]

My understanding from local sources here is that they are using tubing/components left on hand to build as many more Meivici's as they can, use up the materials, and make a few more $$. At the time I heard it I was told they had enough on hand to build about a dozen.

Another poster--I think in this very thread--alluded to going for a ride with Case and Brian telling him they were discontinuing the Meivici because the carbon tube-lug method is "outdated technology," or some such. Uh, yeah . . . seems to still be current enough for LOOK and Colnago.

My own take is Case was just spinning off of what I had already heard locally--they're not going to build carbon any more because they don't have the raw material supplier. That was you as I understand it.

I am totally willing to believe that Brian Case loved the Serotta brand and was a Serotta owner and rider for many years--and may indeed have begun his association of the brand with good intentions. But after what I have heard privately from multiple reliable sources about the current situation, I would not trust anything that comes out of his mouth about this any farther than I could pick up the Saratoga Frameworks building by myself and throw it.

Nothing.

BBD

Actually, we didn't make the regular Meivici in Poway. We made the tubes, lugs, stays, forks, and sent them as a kit to Saratoga where they were machined and bonded into framesets.

The frame that we did make completely, less paint, in Poway was the Meivici AE. I believe we did a couple hundred of those before the plug was pulled on that project.

We sent a lot of parts to Saratoga over the years and they could still be working from old inventory to fill a limited number of orders. There will be no more parts heading to Saratoga from Poway. They burned the bridge with extreme prejudice....

As far as Ottrotts and other mixed material bikes are concerned they could be getting the tubing from a number of sources. Round tubes are a commodity item in the composites industry. Molded shapes are different story.

[FlashUNC]

Another poster--I think in this very thread--alluded to going for a ride with Case and Brian telling him they were discontinuing the Meivici because the carbon tube-lug method is "outdated technology," or some such. Uh, yeah . . . seems to still be current enough for LOOK and Colnago.



Someone should get Time on the horn. Let HQ know they're building outmoded bikes.

[RedRider]

Time frames are no longer lugged. They are molded in France using a process they developed to create the tube shapes they wanted. They also weave their own carbon.

[Mike Lopez]

did you make the carbon bb lug/ shell units?

Yes. All the carbon parts.

[beeatnik]

Would you substitute the name of any other religious person here?
I would request you show the creator of Christianity the same
respect that you would show any other religion.

Hahhahahahahahhahahahahha.

This place.

[PQJ]

I get the Serotta love/loyalty. But I'm of the opinion that there are at least 3 sides to every story. We've only heard about 1.25 of them.

[bluesea]

I don't have that love/loyalty, but what I want from an established brand is continuity.

[oldpotatoe]

Would you substitute the name of any other religious person here?
I would request you show the creator of Christianity the same
respect that you would show any other religion.

Holy Constantine!!!

yikes.......

[fuzzalow]

I have no inside knowledge at all, but I'm not sure if Case had a tainted reputation previous to this deal.


I'm also pretty sure that Serotta was that desperate to try and keep the doors open.



When to boot of Item #2 is pressing on the throat, it makes anyone blind to any thought or consideration to anything with Item #1 other than the numbers to the left of the decimal.

A common phrase, with no intent of ecumenical aspersion, was this being the "Hail Mary" pass thrown in the final seconds.

[BCS]

Holy Constantine!!!

yikes.......

Some would argue that St. Paul founded/transformed Christianity. Therefore, I will take offense to anyone demeaning Paul components. They shall be known as P--L Racer Brakes :rolleyes:

[oldpotatoe]

Some would argue that St. Paul founded/transformed Christianity. Therefore, I will take offense to anyone demeaning Paul components. They shall be known as P--L Racer Brakes :rolleyes:

But Constantine wrote the bible, and helped create Christianity to put a stop to those nasty Pagans.

[Pete Mckeon]

their skill and focus on .quality. Some top tier ones are still there and some have also left. K Bedford and Dave KIrk are alumni and ones I will always pick and recommend

AND

Scott Houck built a Ottrott for me about two years ago and the craftmanship is second to none if done by him! Ti:)

Mike Lopez knows LOTS about carbon as well as BMW 2002s

I like his skill, knowledge, and zest for life in carbon and in red wine.

Additionally he ia an artisan" and quality focused guy of who I hope to see next time I am in LA/SD area:p


well, regardless of the drama with the original owner and all..still the same craft-people there, still make one hellava nice all ti frame....

Worth a look.

from the website

"Saratoga Frameworks, staffed by the same craftsmen who built Serottas for decades, is proud to continue the production of Serotta’s current fully custom and standard geometry models."

[Pete Mckeon]

Yes.



All the carbon parts.
QUality and USA made by him and team

:banana:

[jpw]

I get the Serotta love/loyalty. But I'm of the opinion that there are at least 3 sides to every story. We've only heard about 1.25 of them.

1.125 - this is Serotta.

[Pete Mckeon]

and also the firm verses the workers is another ???

I am biased to likes- - - but am I the .25:eek:

time for wine:help:

PETE ALL bike/frame lover - if it puts a smile on the rider/owner:)



1.125 - this is Serotta.