Pedalling style/technique advice

[macaroon]

Years ago, I never used to pay much attention to this. I just used to pedal as hard as I could.

I think I used to pedal toes down and seemed to prefer a more forward saddle position (it felt more powerful to me). This definitely sacrificed comfort though, and over the years I've gradually moved my saddle further down and further back (I think it's moved down by about 6cm)!

I notice on hills, or at a low cadence under stress, I tend to drop my heels (I'm sure alot do). I've been trying to pedal with a more "heels down" style in general, but I find if I'm trying to spin a high cadence, or pulling up with my feet, or pedalling "agressively" for short sprints (up a small hill for example) I can't do it and my technique just goes to pot (I probably revert to my natural style).

So, does anyone practice their technique? Has anyone managed to change their pedalling style? Any other "interesting" stories about how to pedal properly.

[Ti Designs]

So, does anyone practice their technique? Has anyone managed to change their pedalling style? Any other "interesting" stories about how to pedal properly.

Well maybe, but disputing the "natural pedal stroke" here is much like saying "there is no god and you're ugly" The concept of a natural pedal stroke implies that everybody is born with the ability to pedal, so nobody can pedal better than anybody else, we all just pedal naturally. Oddly enough, I have not found any other voluntary skill set that doesn't require a learning process. One can argue that humans evolved around walking, which is a skill set which took over a year for most of us to master, how could pedaling a bike be natural when the bike came so late in the evolutionary time scale?



OK, the truth is that most people suck at pedaling a bike. It's not because they just suck (some do), but because they've adapted another skill set that just doesn't work that well, and they don't know the difference. (and some of them are ugly too) It's much like saying "I know how to swing an axe, so I should be able to play golf". Very few people teach pedal stroke technique and even fewer can really understand the interface between rider and bike. Perhaps the thing holding most people back is the idea that doing something wrong a lot will make them better at it. Does that work for any skill set?

[rnhood]

I think pedaling is a natural outcome of fit. When you are fit properly, including shoes and cleats, your pedaling will be proper. If something isn't right, its likely to have more to do with the fit.

[macaroon]

I think pedaling is a natural outcome of fit. When you are fit properly, including shoes and cleats, your pedaling will be proper. If something isn't right, its likely to have more to do with the fit.

I think I sort of agree with you. Years ago, when my saddle was much higher, I imagine I probably pedalled "toes down" just so I could manage to reach the bottom of the pedal stroke.

Although after moving my saddle further and further down, I still don't naturally pedal with my heels down - I have to force it/think about it.

I used to find pedalling a bike second nature, at the moment I'm finding it a bit of a nightmare!

[slinkywizard]

Because people tend to be inclined to mainly use their quads, my local fitter emphasized the importance of using the glutes, hamstrings and hip flexors , focussing on the pulling phase of the stroke. The pushing phase is something we'd be inclined to do naturally anyway. When he observed my stroke the first time, he said " you have a nice V8 there" (I kind of felt flattered...), but went on to add "but you're only using 4 cylinders". Anyway, long story short, I strive towards maintaining a smooth pedal stroke by mainly focussing on the pulling phase. This works well for me. I don't do drills or anything and have never really had my per leg output analyzed though.

[1centaur]

I am constantly trying to tweak pedaling technique, though sometimes in my head more than in my legs since I've focused on all parts of the stroke at different times and in different circumstances. Being on the Computrainer 5 days a week and looking at watts will do that to you.

I think most people naturally pedal with quads more than glutes. I did for years. Seeing some pros, men and women, up close at the Gloucester cross on circuit after circuit really helped me focus on how the faster ones produced their stroke in the faster sections where they rode away from the people who were just good and grinding up hills. It jived with something I read in Velonews about pedaling in triangles, with that that down stroke being a diagonal across the top. I have learned over the years that my mind can't concentrate on power for 360 degrees for two legs and I max out at 2 thoughts per circle per leg, so in the triangle mindframe that's 2 of: down diagonal, scrape mud, over the top. At my best I can keep some tension on the pedals constantly, but I don't always want to be at my best because it's tiring. So I just try to even out what my legs are doing as it's tempting to focus on just two strokes on one leg. And that's what I mean about working the head more than the legs.

I read comments from a pro about another pro (maybe Ocana) that said he made up for lack of natural power with incredible smoothness. Of course that means he delivered the right power one way or another, but I lack natural power and want the smoothness etched in my muscle memory as I age.

[regularguy412]

I inclined to agree with the 'fit helps determine pedaling motion' assertion. I can only provide anecdotal evidence based on how I pedal, but here goes.

I am not a tall person, 5' 8". However I have rather longish arms and legs for my height,, and a short torso. By necessity, my fit requires that my saddle be slightly farther behind the BB (approx 5 cm). This is so that on my 56 cm square CSI with a 120mm stem, my knees and elbows don't run into each other when I'm in the drops. This makes it much easier to pedal with my heel dropped through almost the entire pedal stroke, as the angle in my ankle is much less acute when approaching top-dead-center. This really helps recruit glutes and hamstrings. When necessary, I can always slide forward a bit on the saddle and get more out of the quads.

MIke in AR:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

Years ago, I never used to pay much attention to this. I just used to pedal as hard as I could.

I think I used to pedal toes down and seemed to prefer a more forward saddle position (it felt more powerful to me). This definitely sacrificed comfort though, and over the years I've gradually moved my saddle further down and further back (I think it's moved down by about 6cm)!

I notice on hills, or at a low cadence under stress, I tend to drop my heels (I'm sure alot do). I've been trying to pedal with a more "heels down" style in general, but I find if I'm trying to spin a high cadence, or pulling up with my feet, or pedalling "agressively" for short sprints (up a small hill for example) I can't do it and my technique just goes to pot (I probably revert to my natural style).

So, does anyone practice their technique? Has anyone managed to change their pedalling style? Any other "interesting" stories about how to pedal properly.

I think pedaling 'style' is physiological, not psychological...in that your leg/fit, etc. structure determines how you pedal, not yer noggin...IMHO.

[MattTuck]

I have no idea what the professionals are saying with regard to this, but sure, I've tried to make my pedal stroke smoother.

I started off doing it sort of like intervals. 1 minute on, a few minutes off. build it up slowly, until the rests between the 'drills' are 1 minute. then start doing longer drills. 2 minutes. 3 minutes and up until you can ride that form continuously.


high cadence/low resistance drills are also helpful for pedaling form.


I've read on this board, and elsewhere, from people who have power meters that there is a significant improvement in power if you can just unweight your leg on the upstroke of the revolution. If you develop your hip flexors to do that, 100% of the energy of your downstroke goes to pushing the bike forward and none to pushing your opposite leg back to the top. I use this technique when I need extra power for short (1-5 minutes) of bursts. Beyond that, my hip flexors cry out for mercy.

Also, don't discount the importance of flexibility when it comes to pedal stroke. A little tightness here or there, and/or flexibility here/there can make a big difference in what is feasible.

[macaroon]

Thanks for the contributions, alot of it is things I've thought about before, although it's nice to have other people agree/disagree.

I'm inclined to agree that heel dropping seems to feel easier/more natural with the saddle further back, this seems to help work the glutes etc.

Further forward on the saddle and I seem to pedal more toes down, I also find it easier to spin faster.

I also try and unweight the trailing leg on the upstroke, and I agree, it seems more "powerful" when I do it. Whether it is over the course of an hour is anyones guess.

I think it was the thread on here regarding Chris Froomes style that got me thinking. I know folk think he looks ugly on the bike, but I quite like his style. He seems to have a huge heel drop, can spin a fast cadence, has an explosive kick when seated, and he remains in the same position on the saddle most of the time.

I notice alot of pros tend to ride on the rivet when pushing it - something I don't really like doing.

[Lewis Moon]

I'll echo the fit suggestions mentioned above, and just add that, the only real conscious effort I put into my pedal stroke is to try to spin faster and more smoothly when I lapse into "stomp mode". This usually happens on hills when I start to do the whole-body rock on each pedal stroke. I find that if I just concentrate on relaxing and calming my upper body and start turning smooth circles, my cadence goes up significantly, without shifting down. Cadence up, power up, speed up...without using more energy.

[R2D2]

Lemond's book ( pretty old now) said to imagine scraping mud off your shoe thru the bottom of the stroke.

There's also the the "think circles" advice.

But like others have stated , you can over think this.

[AngryScientist]

grab a fixed gear bike and a set of rollers. if you can ride the rollers smoothly, that's a good place to start.

[Bob Ross]

Because people tend to be inclined to mainly use their quads, my local fitter emphasized the importance of using the glutes, hamstrings and hip flexors , focussing on the pulling phase of the stroke. The pushing phase is something we'd be inclined to do naturally anyway. When he observed my stroke the first time, he said " you have a nice V8 there" (I kind of felt flattered...), but went on to add "but you're only using 4 cylinders".

LOL! This sounds like the exact opposite of the exchange I had when I first went to my fitter!

He puts me up on the swanky CompuTrain gizmo, the one that tracks power output for each leg independently and at every ~5° of rotation. Watches me pedal a while, then says "You have a very even, uniform pedal stroke. Did you practice that?"
With pride I say "Why, yes, yes I did."
He says "Well, quit practicing; it's too even."

He went on to say that a Good Pedal Stroke should show more power on the downstroke than on the upstroke, because the muscle groups responsible for pushing are larger & more powerful than those responsible for pulling. If you've got a uniform, even power output around all 360° of your pedalstroke, his contention is that you're either stressing the hamstrings & calves too much, or not maximizing the potential of the glutes & quads...or, most likely, both.

[Charles M]

Go see a VERY good fitter...

Not one of the "system" guys, but a great fitter that understands the differences in Physiology and can help you adapt to your physique.

That's the only advice I would take and or give....

[fuzzalow]

He went on to say that a Good Pedal Stroke should show more power on the downstroke than on the upstroke, because the muscle groups responsible for pushing are larger & more powerful than those responsible for pulling. If you've got a uniform, even power output around all 360° of your pedalstroke, his contention is that you're either stressing the hamstrings & calves too much, or not maximizing the potential of the glutes & quads...or, most likely, both.

I agree. I had also posted on this forum that unweighting your non-powering leg on the upstroke was an efficiency worth about 20 watts.

Don't overthink this stuff, just find a way that works for you in making the watts. The pedal stroke is not a fine motor skill and the overall output is far more important than the peakiness in torque of its delivery through the cranks.

Peakiness, or "coming on the cam", in a race car motor is bad because it effects driveability on the limit - there is more power than grip. On a bike in the dry there is always less grip POWER than GRIP power, so even if it seems choppy sounding while on the rollers, as long as there is a lot of watts, it is all good. MTB specific riding skills I exclude (steep hill, loose dirt climbs), that is a specialized skill subset in cycling.

Finally, those trying to make power with hip flexors and hamstrings are wasting their effort - those muscles are tiny compared to gluts & quads. Flexors & hams unweight and slide the unpowering leg out of the way, gluts & quads power the bike.

[bargainguy]

Who here remembers ankling? Now I'm dating myself....

[Mark McM]

Who here remembers ankling? Now I'm dating myself....

That went out with toe clips and straps.

[sparky33]

If you've got a uniform, even power output around all 360° of your pedalstroke, his contention is that you're either stressing the hamstrings & calves too much, or not maximizing the potential of the glutes & quads...or, most likely, both.

yeah, isn't the thinking that the smoothest pedaleurs are really just good at unweighting on the upstroke rather than pulling up?

I can hardly tell the difference, you know since I'm working so hard already to lift my massive quads on the upstroke.

[sparky33]

grab a fixed gear bike and a set of rollers. if you can ride the rollers smoothly, that's a good place to start.

Rollers are a helpful nuisance.

[tch]

Who here remembers ankling? Now I'm dating myself....

Whattya mean "remembers"??
You implying that this isn't the most current technique? :eek::eek:

[Lanterne Rouge]

See I'm a bit skeptical about all this 360 pedalling technique.

I remember reading in some highfalutin magazine that legs work like pistons and it's only the downstroke that has any importance.

Now I get what you're saying about unweighting the opposite foot but if I thought about that then I'd probably forget to push the other leg down - I'm just a bit dense like that.

I mash pedals (Bourrinage de pédales in French).

[Lewis Moon]

yeah, isn't the thinking that the smoothest pedaleurs are really just good at unweighting on the upstroke rather than pulling up? I can hardly tell the difference, you know since I'm working so hard already to lift my massive quads on the upstroke.

This is exactly my thought. Really, isn't smoothness just a matter of not throwing any "speed bumps" into your stroke?

[Lewis Moon]

See I'm a bit skeptical about all this 360 pedalling technique.

I remember reading in some highfalutin magazine that legs work like pistons and it's only the downstroke that has any importance.

Now I get what you're saying about unweighting the opposite foot but if I thought about that then I'd probably forget to push the other leg down - I'm just a bit dense like that.

I mash pedals (Bourrinage de pédales in French).

What's your usual cadence, say, on smooth flat ground, going right at FTP?

[Lanterne Rouge]

What's your usual cadence, say, on smooth flat ground, going right at FTP?

I try to keep it between 90 and 100.

[Lewis Moon]

I try to keep it between 90 and 100.

About the same as mine. I find it hard to think of spinning at the RPM as stomping.

[MattTuck]

During my ride today, I paid more attention to unweighting. From the strava report, 2 personal bests, a 2nd best personal time and 3rd best personal time.

Based on this, the theory is confirmed. :banana::banana::banana::banana:

[macaroon]

Does anyone vary their pedalling stroke?

Sometimes I spin quickly but my legs and feet operate completely differently to when I mash the pedals, and likewise, if I'm grinding up a hill they are different again!

I don't even really know what my natural technique is!

[Lewis Moon]

During my ride today, I paid more attention to unweighting. From the strava report, 2 personal bests, a 2nd best personal time and 3rd best personal time.

Based on this, the theory is confirmed. :banana::banana::banana::banana:

N=1. More data needed.

[leftyfreak]

Does anyone vary their pedalling stroke?

Sometimes I spin quickly but my legs and feet operate completely differently to when I mash the pedals, and likewise, if I'm grinding up a hill they are different again!


There's a lot of great information at www.edsasslercoaching.com. If you click on pedal stroke classes you can read about using different muscle groups throughout the pedal stroke and also how they apply to different riding situations.

[pbarry]

grab a fixed gear bike and a set of rollers. if you can ride the rollers smoothly, that's a good place to start.

Yep. Those two machines will teach you to pedal in circles. Trackies make efficient roadies because of what they learned on the boards. Merckx, (Six Day races), and Wiggins come to mind.

[pbarry]

To Macaroon, if you drop your heel a lot, you may be compensating for a seat height that's a bit low. It sounds like your former position was a little high, leading to the toes-down spinning. If it's difficult to spin now, you might want to try raising your saddle incrementally.

[sparky33]

Yep. Those two machines will teach you to pedal in circles. Trackies make efficient roadies because of what they learned on the boards. Merckx, (Six Day races), and Wiggins come to mind.

Coasting is such a lazy and lame habit. Spin. Always spin. Fixed is great like that, even aside from all the Zen hipster nonsense.

[pbarry]

Coasting is such a lazy and lame habit. Spin. Always spin. Fixed is great like that, even aside from all the Zen hipster nonsense.

Right. Rarely do you see one around here riding at respectable RPM's. Most are over-geared and their seats are too high. Snipes aside, more people riding is a good thing. :hello:

[#campyuserftw]

'And the toes pointed down'

We learn visually, more than anything. Golf swing, teaching and learning, has been greatly advanced through video, slow-motion playback, and now, Apps on smartphones, where users can record and analyze their swing. In the golf swing, the body is fixed, connected at the shaft's grip (pedal/crank), where the body then moves in order to create kinetic energy. Pedaling, like golf, hold several similarities; the swing is impacted by one's address position (bike fit), and the natural movement therein (pedal technique).

If one were to see, on video, from a side view, forward view, and rear view, their own pedal stroke, and overall look on the bike, they might be very pleased, or quite shocked.

"The sight of Jacques Anquetil on a bicycle gives credence to an idea we Americans find unpalatable, that of a natural aristocracy. From the first day he seriously straddled a top tube, "Anq" had a sense or perfection most riders spend a lifetime searching for. Between 1950, when he rode his first race, and nineteen years later, when he retired, Anquetil had countless frames underneath him, yet that indefinable poise was always there.

The look was that of a greyhound. His arms and legs were extended more than was customary in his era of pounded post World War Two roads. And the toes pointed down. Just a few years before, riders had prided their ankling motion, but Jacques was the first of the big gear school. His smooth power dictated his entire approach to the sport. Hands resting serenely on his thin Mafac brake levers, the sensation from Quincampoix, Normandy, appeared to cruise while others wriggled in desperate attempts to keep up."

Please see here, two of the very finest in their sport (your toes and swing-impact-position may vary):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOeSokcEs9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5MnnWmzfCQ

http://bikeraceinfo.com/riderhistories/Anquetil-part-2.html

[ultraman6970]

The oldest and cheapest way to learn to spin is to grab an old road of track bike and start with super light gears for about 2 months. Here is the trick... no clipless pedals or shoes, needs to be done with old style shoes, old pedals and the clips but w/o the straps, that will force you to pedal nice and round or the feet will get off the pedals and for people that is not used to it is really frustrating. Back in the day that was the 1st thing they did with kids in the camps at least in europe (spain and italy) and south america.

Another way is using regular rollers with the same principle, regular pedals no straps and medium to light gearing, same situation; it will be so light that the feet will be all over the place and you are forced to pedal correctly. Only from looking at wiggo you can tell he did that back when he was junior maybe, not many people have that pedaling style no more.

Cheers...

[professerr]

Train a lot with 4 or 5 guys as strong or slightly stronger than you. Really beat each other into the ground mercilessly but honestly; no tricks like sandbagging so you can get the jump on the other guy later in the ride.

When you're truly at max effort, if you pay attention you'll learn to do what it takes to adjust your cadence and pedaling style in order to keep up and not get dropped. Play around to see what works and doesn't -- the feedback when you're riding two up is pretty immediate, especially if you're very familiar with the strengths of the other riders.

Rollers made me look smoother and steadier. Not sure if they made me faster.

[macaroon]

To Macaroon, if you drop your heel a lot, you may be compensating for a seat height that's a bit low. It sounds like your former position was a little high, leading to the toes-down spinning. If it's difficult to spin now, you might want to try raising your saddle incrementally.

Yep, I had assumed that, and I think I've probably been riding with it too low.

I do sometimes video myself on the trainer, and when the seat was at it's lowest, my right leg didnt look like it extended enough, although my left leg looked about right.

One thing I have come to notice is I naturally sit off to the right, I have to make a conscious effort to stay centered on the seat. I think this is probably due to using a seat that was too high for a number of years - leading me to sit to the right to compensate for my stronger leg!

Another strange thing is my saddle height, at the moment it's probably running at around 815mm from centre of cranks to top of seat, with just over 100mm setback. My inside leg is 900mm.

Now I know the Lemond and 109% methods are just guides, but my seat height is far higher than those suggest. Also, searching about the web, it seems others with my inside leg dimensions are running much lower saddles.

I am considering a bike fit, but I do enjoy playing about with my setup myself.

[pdmtong]

Very interesting comments from all but note the OP has changed his saddle by 6 cm.

6 cm!!!

I Think before anything else the saddle height needs to be determined - even if say +/- 3 cm that's a lot to tolerate up and down

[Ti Designs]

When you're truly at max effort, if you pay attention you'll learn to do what it takes to adjust your cadence and pedaling style in order to keep up and not get dropped.

Common advice like this explains the groups of guys who always go as hard as they can, which really isn't that fast, but they always seem to have crashes... What other skill set do you learn at full throttle? What makes cycling such a natural motion that you think you can jump into it at full intensity and learn? If you learn to juggle by throwing 5 balls in the air, there isn't a whole lot of learning going on. If you start by learning how to throw one ball in the same ark over and over, then add another and another the process works. Same can be said for any learned process. Yet all the advice here is along the lines of get the tools and go at it, without much definition of the "go at it" part.

I don't understand the "ride lots" philosophy on cycling, it really doesn't seem to work. The funny part (funny to me at least) is that most people think that was Eddy Merckx's advice. Watch Eddy when he raced and you'll find that in almost every race he would start with the saddle in the exact same place, then a little way into the race he would change it because of how he was riding that day or what he was riding over. The guy knows way more about his own pedal stroke than his off the cuff remark lets on. Just riding doesn't teach you very much, there are a few with the natural talent who figure it out, far more who ride lots but never get very good at it.

I'm in the business of making training partners. I start with riders who have not really given the pedal stroke any thought, and then break it down to it's parts and have them work on each part. When they put it all back together they ride better. An example of that would be Bill, who came to me as your garden variety recreational rider. He signed up for something really stupid and needed the fastest way to become a much better rider. In the space of 3 months he became a good training partner.

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/training-day/201109/craziest-bike-race-earth

That's just one example. It's one I'm very proud of 'cause Bill was such a good student. Pedal stroke lessons every friday morning and the guy did his homework! I do the same thing with a dozen or so people a year. Most of my riders have a fraction of the time on the bike that people here do, yet in their first or second season of riding they're far better riders. That's what happens when you teach someone instead of just handing them the book...

[MattTuck]

Ed,

I hear what you're saying about teaching the proper mechanics of cycling, but here is a question I do have. Withe different people having different positions based on physiologically unchangeable factors (bone length for instance) as well as somewhat malleable factors (such as flexibility), we are all making a compromise between power and comfort.

In some positions, it seems a rider can recruit different muscle groups.

From your perspective, how do you approach a rider that is just stronger in some muscle groups than others? And how does your pedal stroke class relate to a person's fit?

Sigh. If I had the cash, I'd love to take your class.

[leftyfreak]

Ed,

I hear what you're saying about teaching the proper mechanics of cycling, but here is a question I do have. Withe different people having different positions based on physiologically unchangeable factors (bone length for instance) as well as somewhat malleable factors (such as flexibility), we are all making a compromise between power and comfort.

In some positions, it seems a rider can recruit different muscle groups.

From your perspective, how do you approach a rider that is just stronger in some muscle groups than others? And how does your pedal stroke class relate to a person's fit?

Sigh. If I had the cash, I'd love to take your class.

If he's offering the class at Wheelworks again this fall/winter, it's actually not that expensive, $100 total for four classes. I imagine the bigger problem for you would be coming down to Boston four weeks in a row, but maybe you can make it work. I did the class last year and it was totally worth the money and time. This was after he and I had spent a bunch of time getting my fit on the bike to a good place--I think he often ends up adjusting the fit of students in his class, but Ed can answer that better than me.

[MattTuck]

If he's offering the class at Wheelworks again this fall/winter, it's actually not that expensive, $100 total for four classes. I imagine the bigger problem for you would be coming down to Boston four weeks in a row, but maybe you can make it work. I did the class last year and it was totally worth the money and time. This was after he and I had spent a bunch of time getting my fit on the bike to a good place--I think he often ends up adjusting the fit of students in his class, but Ed can answer that better than me.

Oh, that is much more affordable than I thought. I went to his website a while back but must have been looking in the wrong place, because I had a number close to $1,000 in my head.

[RFC]

Interesting thread. Thanks.

Watching your computer can tell you a lot. For example, I can see the difference in speed when I

-- take weight off during the up stroke
-- think circles
-- drop a gear and increase RPM

I think a lot of pedaling style has to do with your athletic background. For example, I come from a hard core distance running background (50,000 miles in 20 years before I gave up running to save my knees). As a result, my legs want the extension and I tend to toe. Although I can spin more effectively when I drop the saddle a cm or 2.

Also, triathletes present another riding style. Forward saddle for more overall open body position and high rpm.

[Uncle Jam's Army]

Just put it in the 11 and go, mate!

[CunegoFan]

I think pedalling style is a bunch of old wives tales good for an annual article in Bicycling magazine. There is scant evidence to show it makes any difference. The legendary non-expert on this is Frank Day, who for years has been trying to prove his Power Cranks product is something other than expensive snake oil with ludicrous claims of performance enhancement. All he has managed to do is point to dubious studies that are shot down by real experts pointing to more rigorous studies. There are endless threads on varous cycling forums refuting the significance of pedalling style as a result of him.

[Lewis Moon]

I think pedalling style is a bunch of old wives tales good for an annual article in Bicycling magazine. There is scant evidence to show it makes any difference. The legendary non-expert on this is Frank Day, who for years has been trying to prove his Power Cranks product is something other than expensive snake oil with ludicrous claims of performance enhancement. All he has managed to do is point to dubious studies that are shot down by real experts pointing to more rigorous studies. There are endless threads on varous cycling forums refuting the significance of pedalling style as a result of him.

Never confuse "pedaling style" with pedaling with style.
http://www.diariosport.it/files/2009/10/eddy-merckx.jpg

[professerr]

Common advice like this explains the groups of guys who always go as hard as they can, which really isn't that fast, but they always seem to have crashes... What other skill set do you learn at full throttle? What makes cycling such a natural motion that you think you can jump into it at full intensity and learn? If you learn to juggle by throwing 5 balls in the air, there isn't a whole lot of learning going on. If you start by learning how to throw one ball in the same ark over and over, then add another and another the process works. Same can be said for any learned process. Yet all the advice here is along the lines of get the tools and go at it, without much definition of the "go at it" part.

I start with riders who have not really given the pedal stroke any thought, and then break it down to it's parts and have them work on each part.

My advice was just based on what I experienced, albeit years ago, when I was training to race. No more special expertise here than that.

That said, I don’t think cycling is like juggling (which I also can do), which is completely unnatural and require motor skills and coordination much more complex than pedaling.

I don’t even think cycling is like many other aerobic sports, like, say, rowing (which I also competed in) which requires a specific technique that needs to be taught step by step in the way you indicate.

Pedaling, for me, was such a singular, isolated motion that armed with a little bit of knowledge and self-awareness of my body I could see what worked and didn’t simply by virtue of how I performed while at my limits riding against guys I knew very, very well. Honestly, though, when the hammer was down the main things were just position and cadence.

But this is an old debate, there are many approaches, and we’ve all seen articles on this, pro and con.

[macaroon]

Thanks for the interesting responses.

I raised my saddle about 5mm two days ago, it feels better. I can pedal with my toes down more comfortably, but I can also drop my heels if I need to. Intense bursts now seem a bit easier, as does pulling up.

I'll try raising it another 3mm for my next ride and see how that is.

[Ti Designs]

I don’t even think cycling is like many other aerobic sports, like, say, rowing (which I also competed in) which requires a specific technique that needs to be taught step by step in the way you indicate.

So you can push the pedals in the direction of travel all the way around the pedal stroke, and limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to less than 35% at high intensity? I'm not that gifted, I have to work at it.

[pbarry]

Thanks for the interesting responses.

I raised my saddle about 5mm two days ago, it feels better. I can pedal with my toes down more comfortably, but I can also drop my heels if I need to. Intense bursts now seem a bit easier, as does pulling up.

I'll try raising it another 3mm for my next ride and see how that is.

Position is subjective. Adjust until it feels right, then, just ride. :)

[giordana93]

Thanks for the interesting responses.

I raised my saddle about 5mm two days ago, it feels better. I can pedal with my toes down more comfortably, but I can also drop my heels if I need to. Intense bursts now seem a bit easier, as does pulling up.

I'll try raising it another 3mm for my next ride and see how that is.

I think this is from that famous golf book about corrections to a swing: if I tell you to take an aspirin, don't take the whole bottle. In other words, it's easy to go too high, so make any changes gradually. Your body cant fully assimilate changes in a day or so, and what feels good at the start of a ride can be miserable at the end of a four hour death march, esp. if you have limited hamstring flexibility, core strength, etc.

wrt to technique, I like the old mantra "pedal faster, not harder." Lots of people equate mashing gears with riding hard and never develop efficient pedaling, and that's what is needed to go faster, taxing the cardio system and saving the big effort "muscling" of gears for short bursts (of relatively inefficient but high power output pedalling)

[macaroon]

Thanks guys. I raised my saddle towards the end of a 75miler on Sunday, after my brother thought it was a bit low.

I kept it at that height and did 30 miles on Monday and then 20 miles yesterday. I never felt the need to lower it, fair enough they weren't long rides, but I rarely get aches and pains anyway.

If anything, it usually feels too high at the start of a ride since I'm not really warmed up. Towards the end of yesterdays ride, it still felt a bit low if anything.

But I'm happy thnigs seem to be going in the right direction.

:banana:

[oldpotatoe]

My advice was just based on what I experienced, albeit years ago, when I was training to race. No more special expertise here than that.

That said, I don’t think cycling is like juggling (which I also can do), which is completely unnatural and require motor skills and coordination much more complex than pedaling.

I don’t even think cycling is like many other aerobic sports, like, say, rowing (which I also competed in) which requires a specific technique that needs to be taught step by step in the way you indicate.

Pedaling, for me, was such a singular, isolated motion that armed with a little bit of knowledge and self-awareness of my body I could see what worked and didn’t simply by virtue of how I performed while at my limits riding against guys I knew very, very well. Honestly, though, when the hammer was down the main things were just position and cadence.

But this is an old debate, there are many approaches, and we’ve all seen articles on this, pro and con.

Heresy!!!

anyway..yep....many and many....gonna go ride now..even if it is raining..


cuz it's fun, ya know, not a job..got one of those..

[Ti Designs]

cuz it's fun, ya know, not a job..got one of those..

It's more fun the better you are at it. This will always be disputed by those who suck at it, but how would they know?

[jr59]

It's more fun the better you are at it. This will always be disputed by those who suck at it, but how would they know?

You mean like a coach who thinks/believes his way is the ONLY way!

But there again how would they know?

I'm sure that to you, your way is the only way. While the truth of it is that if this was true, you wouldn't be posting on here. Your way may very well work, I'm not saying it doesn't. Yet, the facts remain that there are many ways to get somebody to pedal correctly, as shown by MANY studies and coaches thru out history. Most really good coaches know this. This fact applies to any sport, not just cycling!

[cfox]

It's more fun the better you are at it. This will always be disputed by those who suck at it, but how would they know?

your "everybody sucks" thing is beyond old...mostly because it's not true

[Ti Designs]

I hear what you're saying about teaching the proper mechanics of cycling, but here is a question I do have. With different people having different positions based on physiologically unchangeable factors (bone length for instance) as well as somewhat malleable factors (such as flexibility), we are all making a compromise between power and comfort.

Why should there be a compromise between power and comfort? When I do fittings I explain limits of range of motion and why I keep people within their own limits. Sometimes it's very subtle, not something you would notice on your own. The pull reflex when the pedal is at the far point from the hip is a good example, you probably don't notice it and it's really hard to imagine that little bit of tension is doing any harm, but that little tug happens 80 times/minute for as long as you're pedaling the bike - that adds up. Anyway, I set people up based on their own limits, then some people ask if I would set them up differently if they were racing. Would being beyond your own limits make you faster?


In some positions, it seems a rider can recruit different muscle groups.

From your perspective, how do you approach a rider that is just stronger in some muscle groups than others? And how does your pedal stroke class relate to a person's fit?

Were you of the opinion that there's only one position to ride in? Yes, which muscle groups you can use depends on your position on the bike - this is a basic concept of what I teach. I break the pedal stroke down into four muscle groups, how you use each one depends a lot on your position on the bike. Glutes extend the leg from the hip, they only work well when your center of gravity is over the pedals. Hip flexors don't like the end range of motion that much, so they work better when you sit up a bit more. The quads push forward, but they need the hip flexors to get the pedal over the top, so the position best suited for using the quads is dictated by the hip flexors.

With very few exceptions, people's bodies work the same. Quads extend the leg at the knee, hamstrings retract the leg at the knee. So, bike fit is a series of limitations based on range of motion, then it's finding out how to make the most of all four muscle groups.


Sigh. If I had the cash, I'd love to take your class.

I think you have me mistaken for the guy in Concord. I'll make you a deal. Let's set aside the time to do this right, I'll put in the time it takes, you need to do the homework. Bike fit, pedal stroke program, weight training program (maybe), skills work, base mileage, intervals... Between now and next season no money changes hands. When we're done you can pay me what you think it was worth.

[oldpotatoe]

It's more fun the better you are at it. This will always be disputed by those who suck at it, but how would they know?

Define 'suck at it'?

ya mean, "limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to less than 35% at high intensity", I thought that's what ya meant, just not sure. I'm at 40-45% duty cycle but only a a few muscle groups, not all of them...some are at 37% tops.

jeesus...bike riding, not flying a USN Fighter(did that) or being a surgeon..bike riding..take the pack off...

[Ti Designs]

Define 'suck at it'?


Let's go for a ride!

[Ti Designs]

your "everybody sucks" thing is beyond old...mostly because it's not true

OK then, 50% of the population is below average...

[soulspinner]

Let's go for a ride!

I want to put on a go pro and record this.........

[professerr]

So you can push the pedals in the direction of travel all the way around the pedal stroke, and limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to less than 35% at high intensity?

Beats me. I don't even know what "limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to 35% at high intensity" means. I gather you're in the fit and/or coaching business. Do you test for this? Can they test that? I was tested for a bunch of stuff long ago but don't recall that -- and no, I don't suck.

[oldpotatoe]

Let's go for a ride!

Why, so you can go to the bar and talk about you kicked the old fart's ass?

Let's decide that bike riding is a leisure time activity, supposed to be fun..if ya want to make it a chore for you and the others you 'coach', go ahead big fella, it's not why I ride. Bicycle, like I said, take the farging pack off..it's a farking bicycle, afterall.

-at about 37% duty cycle

"OK then, 50% of the population is below average... "

Who the F__k CARES..you do but I certainly don't, life's too short to worry about how I ride a farging bicycle.

Ain't life or death..bicycle, toy.

I'm tapping out, this is goin' nowhere productive.

[Ti Designs]

Beats me. I don't even know what "limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to 35% at high intensity" means.

You probably know it by feel, you just don't understand it. One of the most common complaints on a bike is "my quads burn when I climb hills". They think they're pushing harder and that's why they burn. Nope. Muscles as motors are somewhat defective, they don't deliver fuel, or in this case oxygen and work at the same time. Muscles under tension don't get blood flow. So a sustainable working model of a muscle would have the muscle contract for a period of time and then relax for a longer time - the ratio of the period of time it's used to the whole cycle is called duty cycle. Most people never really think about where they use their quads, somehow they just do - that's the skill set borrowed from walking. They fire their quads from 11:00 all the way down to 6:00 - that's greater than a 50% duty cycle. Not enough time to replenish oxygen causes an anaerobic state, and that's the burning you're feeling. It's not that you're working your muscles harder, it's that you're working your muscles wrong. Next, let's look at what the quads really do - they extend the leg from the knee. So, when the pedal is at 3:00 you're pushing forward while the pedal is going down. You would be far better off training your body to only use the quads from 11:00 to 2:00 where the pedal is moving forward, and let the muscle recover for the rest of the pedal stroke where other muscle groups are better used. This takes a certain amount of training...

[Ti Designs]

Why, so you can go to the bar and talk about you kicked the old fart's ass?

I happen to think that riding with other people is fun. That fun goes along with a certain amount of confidence in one's ability on the bike. What you've got going there is called fear, which keeps things from being fun. I'm a pretty good rider, if someone asks me to go riding with them I'll probably say yes. You would probably ask how far, how fast or if there are any big hills. Any of these things could cause you to say no, and where's the fun in that?


Who the F__k CARES..you do but I certainly don't, life's too short to worry about how I ride a farging bicycle.

We see things differently. I want to know what my limits are, I'm willing to do some training to get there. You see it as something to do just for fun. Let me ask you this - what kind of bike do you ride?

[jlwdm]

You mean like a coach who thinks/believes his way is the ONLY way!

But there again how would they know?

I'm sure that to you, your way is the only way. While the truth of it is that if this was true, you wouldn't be posting on here. Your way may very well work, I'm not saying it doesn't. Yet, the facts remain that there are many ways to get somebody to pedal correctly, as shown by MANY studies and coaches thru out history. Most really good coaches know this. This fact applies to any sport, not just cycling!

+100

Pros don't seem to think there is only 1 way to pedal.

Time for Ti to take a break again.


Jeff

[aramis]

OK then, 50% of the population is below average...

Actually since you seem to know so much about math and percentages, you should know that isn't how averages work.

Take percentages:

100 95 95 95 69 10 9

71% are above average by some miracle of math

[93legendti]

OP asks for advice. Ti D gives advice. Posters get mad at Ti D.

Odd.

[fuzzalow]

OP asks for advice. Ti D gives advice. Posters get mad at Ti D.

Odd.

Yes. And because I find the "me too +1" post bereft of content, I will add that though what Ti D posts may be voiced to a manner that offends some tender sensibilities, what he says isn't off base or non-factual. His approach is different than mine also to a degree, but being different isn't the same as being incorrect. No need to get aggressive or defensive in response.

We are all comrades here.

[Ti Designs]

I think I upset their universe. Without me, everybody rides just fine and all is right in the world. With me here there are people who suck, and they assume I'm talking about them. Do they know something we don't???

I don't think there's only one way to ride, or one way to teach. I have my method. If ever you find a teacher without a method of teaching, you haven't really found a teacher. My method works for many, if it pisses off a few in the process I'll just have to take the good with the bad.

OK, I'll be honest. Pissing off the people who have a problem with how I coach is good. I don't really see a down side here...

So there are some (many?) who don't want me here. I have to ask them, what is it that you offer the cycling community? I'm on my bike 5 mornings a week working with riders, sometimes paid, sometimes not. There are a lot of riders out there who will give me some credit for their riding. I don't need to be here, but if I'm not why should I offer to work with forum members on my own time?

[Bob Ross]

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu144/Dildo-Boy/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

[mtechnica]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x101/soberbyker/ScarJo_popcorn.gif

[charliedid]

http://i.imgur.com/TYNQl.gif

[GT2R]

Most people can ride a bike, but a very few have paid a coach and evaluated their pedal stroke to maximize performance. I have paid a coach to evaluate my stroke and was surprised at how much I didn't know. I am confident that a coach can help EVERY rider but not everyone is driven to improve. Sometimes just riding is good enough.

Ride cause ya love it and pedal like ya know what your doing!

[firerescuefin]

People want to to know what I'm on. You know what I'm on...

I'm on my bike 5 mornings a week working with riders. .....that's what I'm on :no:

Couldn't resist...keep the post coming Ti :)

[blessthismess]

http://i.imgur.com/TYNQl.gif

This just made me laugh out loud on the train home

Thanks

:)

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I think I upset their universe. Without me, everybody rides just fine and all is right in the world. With me here there are people who suck, and they assume I'm talking about them. Do they know something we don't???

I don't think there's only one way to ride, or one way to teach. I have my method. If ever you find a teacher without a method of teaching, you haven't really found a teacher. My method works for many, if it pisses off a few in the process I'll just have to take the good with the bad.

OK, I'll be honest. Pissing off the people who have a problem with how I coach is good. I don't really see a down side here...

So there are some (many?) who don't want me here. I have to ask them, what is it that you offer the cycling community? I'm on my bike 5 mornings a week working with riders, sometimes paid, sometimes not. There are a lot of riders out there who will give me some credit for their riding. I don't need to be here, but if I'm not why should I offer to work with forum members on my own time?

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. I ride my bike 5 times a week, too. I try to be a better, more efficient rider, too. I have my own thoughts of what works for me and what doesn't. I like many things you have to say about training, but not the tone. Why such antagonistic prose?

[Ti Designs]

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. I ride my bike 5 times a week, too. I try to be a better, more efficient rider, too. I have my own thoughts of what works for me and what doesn't. I like many things you have to say about training, but not the tone. Why such antagonistic prose?

Antagonistic prose is just how I speak - I prefer to call it being blunt.

I think differently than most, I trust almost nothing in my memory and I'm constantly testing what I think. As a result I also question what others think. There are two possibilities there, they could also question what they think, or they can get insulted and attack me. I'm pretty good at what I do, those who never question themselves tend to suck at things (there's that bluntness again) the attacks don't bother me.

This thread is about pedal stroke technique and how one could become better at it. The common advice is learn by doing. My response was to question that - does that work in anything else? Most skill sets involve learning first, and then doing. Much of the response to that was that cycling isn't a learned skill set. There may have been one or two people who challenged their own thoughts about cycling - if it is a learned skill set, there should be a leaning process. Maybe I've done right by those people, maybe they'll enjoy cycling more because of what they learn. I'm willing to piss off a few people to get there...

The real test of all this is what happens on the bike, so for all those who say I spew BS, let's go for a ride.

[oldpotatoe]

I happen to think that riding with other people is fun. That fun goes along with a certain amount of confidence in one's ability on the bike. What you've got going there is called fear, which keeps things from being fun. I'm a pretty good rider, if someone asks me to go riding with them I'll probably say yes. You would probably ask how far, how fast or if there are any big hills. Any of these things could cause you to say no, and where's the fun in that




We see things differently. I want to know what my limits are, I'm willing to do some training to get there. You see it as something to do just for fun. Let me ask you this - what kind of bike do you ride?

And you would be wrong.

You can say that again, twice.

Merckx MXLeader and Moots Vamoots.

My limit is my time..I like to ride, I don't care how fast, or where or what the elevation was or how long it took. It is mental meditation, it is relaxing, it is fun..nothing more, nothing less.

You are never going to win 'some of us over, me by saying 'I suck at that', you are the lower 50% or whatever drivel you said.

Go coach, 'explore your limits' on a bicycle, good for you..not for me.

I'm out

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

"My limit is my time..I like to ride, I don't care how fast, or where or what the elevation was or how long it took. It is mental meditation, it is relaxing, it is fun..nothing more, nothing less."




Exactly why I ride, and still ride after all these years.

[CunegoFan]

You mean like a coach who thinks/believes his way is the ONLY way!

But there again how would they know?

I'm sure that to you, your way is the only way. While the truth of it is that if this was true, you wouldn't be posting on here. Your way may very well work, I'm not saying it doesn't. Yet, the facts remain that there are many ways to get somebody to pedal correctly, as shown by MANY studies and coaches thru out history. Most really good coaches know this. This fact applies to any sport, not just cycling!

There have been scant facts posted here for any of this. Where are the peer reviewed studies that report pedaling style amounts to more than bupkis? All the studies I have seen show nothing. Get a proper fit on your bike and that's it. Done. Scraping mud off the bottom of your shoes or concentrating on smooth circles won't make a bit of difference.

[professerr]

You probably know it by feel, you just don't understand it. One of the most common complaints on a bike is "my quads burn when I climb hills". They think they're pushing harder and that's why they burn. Nope. Muscles as motors are somewhat defective, they don't deliver fuel, or in this case oxygen and work at the same time. Muscles under tension don't get blood flow. So a sustainable working model of a muscle would have the muscle contract for a period of time and then relax for a longer time - the ratio of the period of time it's used to the whole cycle is called duty cycle. Most people never really think about where they use their quads, somehow they just do - that's the skill set borrowed from walking. They fire their quads from 11:00 all the way down to 6:00 - that's greater than a 50% duty cycle. Not enough time to replenish oxygen causes an anaerobic state, and that's the burning you're feeling. It's not that you're working your muscles harder, it's that you're working your muscles wrong. Next, let's look at what the quads really do - they extend the leg from the knee. So, when the pedal is at 3:00 you're pushing forward while the pedal is going down. You would be far better off training your body to only use the quads from 11:00 to 2:00 where the pedal is moving forward, and let the muscle recover for the rest of the pedal stroke where other muscle groups are better used. This takes a certain amount of training...

Yes, many of us have heard this sort of stuff. It sounds plausible enough. I suspect most people learn how to pedal efficiently like this because it is easier and when you are trying to hang on for dear life you gravitate toward whatever is easier by recruiting whatever muscles are left, spinning at the cadence that works, and stroking with suppleness. But who knows -- I don’t have any way to test this theory beyond my own experience.

Can you test the theory that one can train riders to “limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to 35% at high intensity” in the first place, and, more importantly, that this makes them faster? Can you measure this 35% on a rider? Do you? That would help convince people, and I’d encourage you to test for yourself whether this is a more effective way to persuade people than just being blunt.

[Ti Designs]

Can you test the theory that one can train riders to “limit the duty cycle of each muscle group to 35% at high intensity” in the first place, and, more importantly, that this makes them faster? Can you measure this 35% on a rider? Do you? That would help convince people, and I’d encourage you to test for yourself whether this is a more effective way to persuade people than just being blunt.

I've been trying to get the Harvard lab that studies locomotion to do the study, but they don't seem all that interested in human locomotion. If we were lizards they would be all over it. To be honest, I tend to shy away from academic studies like this because they tend to look for answers without understanding the activity. There was one study that was looking at the optimum cadence for cyclists (I pointless study), but given their equipment, they accidentally did a study on efficiency. They had strain gauge pedals that read force but not direction. So, they made the bold assumption that the rider was always pushing the pedal in the correct direction. Then what they noticed was that the wattage at the pedals was higher than the wattage at the rear wheel. While they were checking calibration and trying to understand the difference in the two numbers, I was on my trainer, clipped in to one pedal at a time, turning out 130 watts perfectly smoothly. Most people produced almost 300 watts at the pedals to generate 250 watts at the rear wheel. I used 257 - 25 watts better than anyone else tested.

Can I teach a more efficient technique? I think so. It's really the same as teaching anything else, isolate the movement and remove everything that masks problems. My pedal stroke class is based on this, keep it slow and use one muscle to drive the pedal in a very controlled range at a time. Glutes push down, hamstrings pull back, hip flexors get the pedal over the top so that quads can push forward. It's no different than learning any other motion, you simply have to remove the complexity but starting with one muscle group at a time.

What people say about me and how I think there's only one way to learn is wrong (I coach both sprinters and climbers - I have at least two ways...). My being blunt is because there are ways that clearly don't work - and they would be the most common one. What else do you learn at full speed? Nothing. And yet when someone asks about pedal stroke work, the suggestion always comes up to get a fixed gear. It's putting practice before learning - wrong order.

The other advantage to doing pedal stroke work is injury. Many of my clients come to me because they're injured, or have their knee surgeon on speed dial. If you're on a bike and you are pushing the pedal in it's direction of travel, you're probably not putting too much strain on the joints or connective tissue. If you're pushing in one direction and the pedal is going in another, the bike is then manipulating the body, which is under strain. The stress on the joints and connective tissue is much higher. That part is somewhat easy to test, I just don't have any cadaver limbs kicking around my house.

[macaroon]

Ti Designs, your posts are interesting.

What difference do you think it makes, with regards to muscles recruitment and pedal stroke, whereabouts the saddle is set (in terms of for/aft position)?

Thanks

[Ti Designs]

What difference do you think it makes, with regards to muscles recruitment and pedal stroke, whereabouts the saddle is set (in terms of for/aft position)?

Saddle to pedal relationship is really the key to fit. I set up bikes based on allowing the glutes to support the upper body weight over the pedal (I use center of gravity over pedal spindle, not knee over pedal spindle), and then look for a balance between how the hamstrings and quads come into it.

If you sit on a chair, put your feet on the ground and lean forward (with a somewhat flat lower back), your body understands the static position and uses the glutes to transfer the weight of your upper body to your feet. Your brain has been attached to your body for a while, it knows where to put your feet on the floor to get this balance. If you move your feet way forward, your brain says that you have two points of contact and your center of gravity falls somewhere between them, so it pulls them together - your hamstrings fire. If you put your feet under the chair and start leaning forward, as soon as your center of gravity gets past where your feet are your quads will fire to keep you from falling on your face. The balance point where the glutes are doing almost all of the work is my starting position for saddle fore/aft.

In the past few years I've really found the value in learning how to use the quads. Using the quads well is tricky because your pivot (knee) is above the pedal, but the bike's pivot (bottom bracket) is below it, so the arc your foot wants to go in isn't the same as the one the pedal has to go in. The answer to this is using your hip flexor to direct the foot over the top while using the quad to deliver the power. Quads are the second strongest muscle group, but they become very inefficient when used outside of a range. To figure that out for myself I went to the gym and used a leg extension machine with adjustable limits. I was interested in two things, strength and blood flow. Strength was pretty straight forward, I tested for the range I had the most. What I found was what I expected, the transition from lateralis to medialis was the drop-off point. In other words, moving the saddle too far back would put me outside of my optimal range. A little video work on the trainer confirmed this. The blood flow question was much harder because it changes, and testing hurts! The test was also on the leg extension machine, doing sets of 80 or more with very little weight. Keeping the weight off it's stops means the muscle is always under tension, which means blood flow is restricted or stopped. Knowing this, finding a usable range where I could get the most reps also meant finding the most efficient range. Translating from machine to bike or the other way around takes a little time with stopped video, and the people at my gym think I'm a bit nuts. Then again, so do most people here...

[macaroon]

Thanks, I'll have to read through your post properly and have a play. One thing I have noticed after raising my saddle is it's much easier to use my hip flexors on the up stroke. Odd how much difference 7mm can make!

[#campyuserftw]

Reminds me of the Tao of Pooh, by Benjamin Hoff.

Ti Designs = The Rabbit. Has knowledge and he wants to apply what he's learned, to be clever over the pedals. Unlike the Owl who wants book knowledge for the sake of knowledge and is unwilling to share what he knows.

OldP = Pooh Bear. Knows what he knows, is totally fine with what he knows, and is comfortable, under a tree, eating his bowl of hunny as some duel it out over what makes rain fall from the sky, or the sun rise over the field etc.

Read it for free, worth the time:

http://biggsrbr.weebly.com/uploads/8/7/4/4/8744974/the-tao-of-pooh-by-benjamin-hoff1.pdf

:beer:

[pbarry]

Antagonistic prose is just how I speak

I'm sure you are great at coaching. If I still lived in Lincoln, I'd sign up, cause you've broken pedaling down to a science, which some, me included, relate to. If you questioned your delivery/language as much as you do the cycling motion, you might be rich and famous, and/or have more successful clients than you'd have time to deal with. Something to ponder for an inquiring mind. ;)

[Ti Designs]

I'm sure you are great at coaching. If I still lived in Lincoln, I'd sign up, cause you've broken pedaling down to a science, which some, me included, relate to. If you questioned your delivery/language as much as you do the cycling motion, you might be rich and famous, and/or have more successful clients than you'd have time to deal with. Something to ponder for an inquiring mind. ;)

I do question delivery and language and the reaction it gets a lot, but how I understand things is different than most, how I see things follows - I really don't get the rules. For example, I play piano much like OldPotato rides his bike - just for fun. I can play just fine, but I see no reason to stick to any given piece of music or even to play anything in the right order. I play what I feel like playing 'cause I can. Everybody and their uncle tells me what I'm doing wrong. It's seen as an art, and I'm clearly screwing it up - that's OK to correct. If I see someone riding a bike and doing it all wrong, and I told them that (I really don't, as much as I want to) they'll start in with "I've been riding a bike for...". Can someone explain the difference there? One is seen as an art, the other a natural function? They're both learned skill sets, or at least they should be.

[fuzzalow]

If I see someone riding a bike and doing it all wrong, and I told them that (I really don't, as much as I want to) they'll start in with "I've been riding a bike for...". Can someone explain the difference there? One is seen as an art, the other a natural function? They're both learned skill sets, or at least they should be.

I'll toss some comments into the hopper here...

Yes, the "been doing it this way for years" excuse is prevalent and is a pretty lousy reason for doing something. Because it is almost never the case that something else was investigated and tried with the original method validated as indeed the best way. Instead, "doin' this way for..." is proffered like a badge of obliviousness and ignorance.

As far as language or mode of speech, depends on whether people respond to "how" versus "what" is said. Most won't get past tone and patter not matter what the content might be. So the reaction to "my pedaling sucks?!" is to blow you off rather than responding "oh yeah genius, why is that?". The smarter blokes might let somebody tattle on for bit to find out if there is anything there - and if there's not then that person is written off both as abrasive AND a duma$$. But hey, they had their shot.

[xeladragon]

Saddle to pedal relationship is really the key to fit. I set up bikes based on allowing the glutes to support the upper body weight over the pedal (I use center of gravity over pedal spindle, not knee over pedal spindle), and then look for a balance between how the hamstrings and quads come into it.

If you sit on a chair, put your feet on the ground and lean forward (with a somewhat flat lower back), your body understands the static position and uses the glutes to transfer the weight of your upper body to your feet. Your brain has been attached to your body for a while, it knows where to put your feet on the floor to get this balance. If you move your feet way forward, your brain says that you have two points of contact and your center of gravity falls somewhere between them, so it pulls them together - your hamstrings fire. If you put your feet under the chair and start leaning forward, as soon as your center of gravity gets past where your feet are your quads will fire to keep you from falling on your face. The balance point where the glutes are doing almost all of the work is my starting position for saddle fore/aft.
Ed, how does finding your COG using your sit-on-a-chair test translate to finding your COG on the bike? With the chair, your feet are together, but obviously, this never happens on the bike.

[Ti Designs]

Ed, how does finding your COG using your sit-on-a-chair test translate to finding your COG on the bike? With the chair, your feet are together, but obviously, this never happens on the bike.

The point of the chair test is to show that your body does different things in the static vs. dynamic cases. Sitting in a chair is static, your body knows how to use the glutes to hold up your weight - you don't put all your weight on your desk or keyboard, do you? It switches to the dynamic case as soon as you look at your foot and try to push down. The quads come into it, as they do when your standing, walking, running... The problem is all the learning you've done before you got on a bike doesn't work for pedaling a bike. The chair test just shows how the static and dynamic cases are different. Position on the bike is done on the bike - you don't sit the same on a saddle as you do on a chair.

[Kirk Pacenti]

"Focus turns knowledge into deep understanding." - unknown

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Cheers,
KP

[Mark McM]

The point of the chair test is to show that your body does different things in the static vs. dynamic cases. Sitting in a chair is static, your body knows how to use the glutes to hold up your weight - you don't put all your weight on your desk or keyboard, do you? It switches to the dynamic case as soon as you look at your foot and try to push down. The quads come into it, as they do when your standing, walking, running... The problem is all the learning you've done before you got on a bike doesn't work for pedaling a bike. The chair test just shows how the static and dynamic cases are different. Position on the bike is done on the bike - you don't sit the same on a saddle as you do on a chair.

I'm not sure why you are calling the case were the weight is supported by the legs as "dynamic". Are your legs (or anything else) moving? If not, than it is not dynamic. This seems more a case of an isometric exercise.

[Ti Designs]

I'm not sure why you are calling the case were the weight is supported by the legs as "dynamic". Are your legs (or anything else) moving? If not, than it is not dynamic. This seems more a case of an isometric exercise.

Static case: Sitting on a chair, supporting the body weight at the feet by using the glutes to extend from the hip.

Dynamic case: Walking, supporting the body weight by firing the quads and lifting - it does use range of motion.

[beeatnik]

Ti D, what would you say to Chris Froome about his pedaling style?

[Ti Designs]

Ti D, what would you say to Chris Froome about his pedaling style?

I don't know the guy. I haven't watched pro racing since they stopped putting the Tour on VHS, so I've never seen him ride. Lots of people look at one top rider and think that's the way to ride - Chris Carmichael made a career our of saying "just like Lance". The truth is that all of the elements have to be there for anyone to ride like them, and that's rare. First there is the natural strength (or unnatural as the case may be). Natural strength and fitness can get you pretty far in cycling. A few years ago we had a rower riding with the team who was so strong that his lack of cycling skills didn't matter much. I'm sure there were some other riders thinking that he was doing something right, but what he really did right was in picking his parents, which kind tough to do after the fact.

The thing that I've started to grasp about the difference between natural athletes and normal people is their ability to turn off their panic responses and teach their bodies sequences instead. A few years ago I did an experiment with two platforms, each had a scale on it. One platform was fixed, the other ran on a cam that raised and lowered it slightly. I put a number of people on with one foot on each platform, and asked them to stand evenly on both feet. The force on the scales was close from one side to the other. Then I turned on the motor and asked that they keep the same amount of weight on each foot. Some people could, others were off by huge amounts. It was as if they couldn't get their brain to trust a moving platform.

When I teach pedal stroke I run into the same thing. I stop the pedal at 3:00 and have people get their body weight right on that pedal, like sitting in a chair and leaning forward. That's the easy case, nothing is moving. Then I unblock the pedal, put them in a huge gear and let their body weight drive the pedal down. The natural athletes have no problem with this, they learn it in seconds. Most people sense that they are falling and the body goes into panic mode. Quads fire, arms straighten... They simply can't shut their brains off and allow themselves to fall forward into the pedal.

Thinking that you can copy someone's riding style is saying that you have both their talent and motor control. Watching someone ride, understanding what they're doing and using that in your own riding is about as much benefit as you can get...

[rustychisel]

seven pages... seven pages, on cyclists discussing how to spin a coupla pedals. I say a basket weaving threads goes to 10 pages easy.

[#campyuserftw]

They simply can't shut their brains off and allow themselves to fall forward into the pedal.

I was gonna say it was all in the Osymetric oval chainrings, but you nailed it.

[pbarry]

seven pages... seven pages, on cyclists discussing how to spin a coupla pedals. I say a basket weaving threads goes to 10 pages easy.

Colorway threads beat basket weaving every time. :eek:

[bironi]

seven pages... seven pages, on cyclists discussing how to spin a coupla pedals. I say a basket weaving threads goes to 10 pages easy.

I would think the basket weaving thread would go well beyond 7 pages. The weavers produce more than watts, but then a grin is worth more isn't it?:beer:

[jlwdm]

seven pages... seven pages, on cyclists discussing how to spin a coupla pedals....

Just 7 pages this time. Ed has preached this in many threads before.

Jeff

[Ti Designs]

Just 7 pages this time. Ed has preached this in many threads before.

To be fair, one of those pages is taken up by people who think pedal stroke is 100% natural or who feel that having fun and being good at something are mutually exclusive. I'll also add that the title of this thread is "Pedalling style/technique advice" - perhaps the title should include "spoiler" in it???

I'll make you a deal Jeff. We go for a ride together, it's all captured on video and posted on-line. Then I'll go away.

[fuzzalow]

To be fair, one of those pages is taken up by people who think pedal stroke is 100% natural or who feel that having fun and being good at something are mutually exclusive. I'll also add that the title of this thread is "Pedalling style/technique advice" - perhaps the title should include "spoiler" in it???

I'll make you a deal Jeff. We go for a ride together, it's all captured on video and posted on-line. Then I'll go away.

Hey, I'd have no qualms about joining that kinda ride too. Getting good at something doesn't take the fun outta the activity or make it laborious.

[rustychisel]

and I for one wasn't complaining about Ti D's excellent and always well written advice. Just noticing how often he gets to dispense it.

Sticky?

[professerr]

Here's a review for an iBike power meter that apparently can measure your pedal stroke efficiency. Scroll down a bit to the graphs that show inefficiencies in your stroke horizontally and vertically. Interesting.

Scroll down about halfway through the review for the charts:

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/ibike-newton-power-meter-review/

[cnighbor1]

I've been pedaling with a more "heels down" style in general since Mike Walden yelled at me when out riding the Wolverine cycling club in 1949.

therefore I practice this technique!!!!!
when I watch on TV the tour de France video when they show pros pedaling stroke. Mostly heels down is what I see. Go to youtube and watch some racing videos
I do notice that for more power I need to concentrate and pulling thru with my feet So were my heels are when I do that I am not sure
Charles Nighbor

[TomNY]

LOL! This sounds like the exact opposite of the exchange I had when I first went to my fitter!

He puts me up on the swanky CompuTrain gizmo, the one that tracks power output for each leg independently and at every ~5° of rotation. Watches me pedal a while, then says "You have a very even, uniform pedal stroke. Did you practice that?"
With pride I say "Why, yes, yes I did."
He says "Well, quit practicing; it's too even."

He went on to say that a Good Pedal Stroke should show more power on the downstroke than on the upstroke, because the muscle groups responsible for pushing are larger & more powerful than those responsible for pulling. If you've got a uniform, even power output around all 360° of your pedalstroke, his contention is that you're either stressing the hamstrings & calves too much, or not maximizing the potential of the glutes & quads...or, most likely, both.

I had same experience. If I ride rollers like that the bike wanders all over. If I ride TT style, or bang up a roller OK. Maybe cause my Glutes are not as developed as my quads, but I didn't realize any benefit with that advice. Perhaps over the long term my Glutes will improve.......

[Kirk Pacenti]

The concept TiDesigns is promoting resonates with me.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but if I were to reduce it to a single sentence it might read like: "Work (pedal) smarter, not harder."

Cheers,
KP

[macaroon]

I've been practicing allsorts recently.

I've found moving my saddle back a touch seems to help the hip flexors (?) unweighting the trailing leg.

Also, something I read a while ago on here along the lines of "try to imagine pushing your foot past the front wheel" - this seems to engage the glutes and helps with a smooth pedal stroke.

But if Im riding under real stress (i.e. big ring up a hill) then I resort to mashing!

[regularguy412]

I've been practicing allsorts recently.

I've found moving my saddle back a touch seems to help the hip flexors (?) unweighting the trailing leg.

Also, something I read a while ago on here along the lines of "try to imagine pushing your foot past the front wheel" - this seems to engage the glutes and helps with a smooth pedal stroke.

But if Im riding under real stress (i.e. big ring up a hill) then I resort to mashing!

Under real stress, you do what you must in order to stay on. As my old riding buddy once said, "When you run out of spin, there's still mash. When you run out of mash, you limp in". It'll certainly make you strong, just not pretty.

Mike in AR:beer:

[dnc]

'And the toes pointed down'



"The sight of Jacques Anquetil on a bicycle gives credence to an idea we Americans find unpalatable, that of a natural aristocracy. From the first day he seriously straddled a top tube, "Anq" had a sense or perfection most riders spend a lifetime searching for. Between 1950, when he rode his first race, and nineteen years later, when he retired, Anquetil had countless frames underneath him, yet that indefinable poise was always there.

The look was that of a greyhound. His arms and legs were extended more than was customary in his era of pounded post World War Two roads. And the toes pointed down. Just a few years before, riders had prided their ankling motion, but Jacques was the first of the big gear school. His smooth power dictated his entire approach to the sport. Hands resting serenely on his thin Mafac brake levers, the sensation from Quincampoix, Normandy, appeared to cruise while others wriggled in desperate attempts to keep up."




Where did that smooth power come from, I am satisfied it was not from the circular style. He was content to win TT's by a second and to only push to the limit when it was absolutely necessary. For this maximal power his objective was to apply the greatest possible tangential crank force to his chain ring during its full rotation. To do this, each leg applied 180 degrees of this torque, starting at 11 with the equivalent of 2 o'c torque, this increased to maximal torque at 12 ,1 ,2 and 3 o'c and normal torque from there to 5 o'c. He had no dead spot sector in his technique. Simple, highly effective and undetectable, it took me several years to perfect but it was well worth it. As this has been explained over and over again on various forums, I will not be making any further comment here because as nobody would believe it, it would be another waste of time.

[rustychisel]

you may be right, but it's a heck of a first post.

And I am the Queen Of Sheba. I will not be making any further comment here (as that may undermine the credential I've sought to establish).

[Wesley37]

Coasting is such a lazy and lame habit. Spin. Always spin. Fixed is great like that, even aside from all the Zen hipster nonsense.

I guess it depends on whether one is interested in racing or not...

http://bikeraceinfo.com/training-fitness/pedal-less-win-more.html

Did he pedal more than the other riders and that’s how he won? Did he pedal the same amount as the rest of the riders in the peloton and just get lucky? Or maybe he pedaled the least of riders in contention for the win and therefore saved the most energy for when it was needed. When we look at the cadence distribution chart for his win, we find that he only pedaled 79% of the stage. A full 21% of the stage or 54 minutes of a 4 hour 30 minute race, he was not pedaling. What was he doing? Resting, coasting, relaxing, eating, biding his time.

This is consistent with what I have found when examining hundreds of winning road race power files. It’s nearly a requirement for 95% of road race wins that the rider that wins usually does NOT pedal 15% of the race time or greater. Obviously, if you go in a solo or multi-rider breakaway at the starting gun and you survive to the finish, then this will not be the case, but this is one of the remaining 5% of the wins that this rule does not apply to. So, in the sport of pacing oneself on a bicycle, how much time you do not pedal is important to conserving energy, so when that critical 10 minutes comes, you are ready to effectively use that energy ‘reserve’.