Carbon/aero wheels- are they worth it? (Enve 3.4s)

[kramnnim]

So...I've been wanting carbon rims for a while, but have yet to pull the trigger. The recent threads about Parlees and C59s have me hankering for a new frame. I don't need either, but you know how it is...

I may have the opportunity to get some Enve Smart 3.4's for under $2k, which seems like a deal considering the retail price...but it's more than double what I was originally thinking of spending. (used DV46s seem to go for $900 or so)

Anyway, those of you with "fancy" carbon wheels- are they worth it? I don't race, and have no plans to start...it's more of a "add to the joy of riding" sort of thing. Would I be better off saving up to build up a C59 with EPS? (hah)

My current main bike is a Look 586 with Chorus 11 and ~1300g handbuilts (Kinlin/generic Taiwan hubs). I'm ~140 pounds, and average 1,000 miles/month...1 or 2 fast-ish group rides/week, the rest is mostly solo...a century on the weekends. Not hilly enough to needs brakes on descents, and I rarely ride in the rain.

[rice rocket]

See if someone will lend you a set. Don't know till you try.

[regularguy412]

There are some on here that may pooh-pooh the 'carbon / aero advantage', but I'll have to say that the purchase of my Easton EC90SL tubulars has been the most rewarding expenditure that I've made toward enhancing the enjoyment of my cycling in many years.

The carbon rims now STAY on my CSI ; they're the only wheels I ride on that bicycle. When I 'do' ride my Cannondale shod with Open Pros and clinchers, I can definitely tell the difference. My legs get 'used to' the spin up of the Eastons and I can really tell that the OP's get 'heavy' at speeds above 24 mph.

I don't really 'mind' riding my OP's or my DT Swiss RR 1.2's on my single speed/fixie, but the Eastons just have me spoiled. I always prefer to ride them. Don't be misled, the first pair of tubulars I ever owned were Campy Victory Crono 32 hole, 3x. Loved those wheels. Light, but not so aero and not so stiff. I could sense some windup with them. They sure were comfy to ride. They were followed by Campy Record Cronos. (These were replaced by the Eastons) Same qualities and characteristics.

To me, the Eastons are a clear step above those other wheels.

As posted here earlier: Try some , just to see for yourself.

Mike in AR:beer:

[kramnnim]

I don't know anyone local who uses Campy. :(

[bianchi10]

I came from boyd vitesse aluminum clinchers. They were good wheels and I used them for nearly 4 years. I thought I had a good foundation of of bike knowledge but when it came to wheels, I didn't know as much as i thought. Read more about my adventure below in the link.

Long story short, I ended up buying Enve 45's with R45 Chris King hubs. They have been nothing short of amazing since I rode them. Some may say a lot was placebo, which dont get me wrong, I'm sure there was a bit of that, but I'm still riding with increased speeds over the boyd wheels I had. My Enve's have increased my flat speed by 3Mph and my climbing 1-2mph. A lot of this could be argued that maybe it was because i was riding more, less headwind this time or that....etc. All i know is I'm riding less now because of my new job and my speeds are still above the speeds that I had with my boyd wheels.

The Enve wheels are much stiffer, more aero, look better and I'm happier riding with them. They spin up so much faster and I'm able to maintain speeds easier. Worth it...YUP.


Check out my full review which has some good feedback. If you dont feel like reading through it all, the first page has links to bring you to each wheel tested with feedback.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/875335-Testing-New-Wheels?highlight=testing+wheels

[rice rocket]

I don't know anyone local who uses Campy. :(

11 speed? Good news, you can run Shimano 11 hubs and cassettes interchangeably and not have your cogs self destruct. ;)

[fogrider]

I'm on carbon tubulars that are 32mm deep, not very aero but 1150 grams and in the bay area, there's lots of climbing and areo is not a big issue. I ride aluminum rims during the week on training rides...I really notice the difference jumping on carbon rims on the weekends.

the only real issue is that you need to use pads specific for carbon rims, but not a big deal. carbon tubular rims come in around 200 grams, crazy light where it matters. These wheels spin up so fast! and garmin data don't lie. check out the zipp firecrest wheels.

[DRietz]

Having raced my fair share of aero wheels, from a single 80mm deep crit destroyer in the front to a full carbon tubular set, honestly...no.

It's the motor that matters, anyone in a race can demonstrate that - he or she who is most prepared and on his or her best day will take away the win regardless of equipment.

Now, if the choice was between EPS and a new wheelset, go for the wheels.

EPS sucks. It sucks to set up, it sucks in terms of durability.

I say this is as a full-time Campy user.

[beeatnik]

Will you get 2 grand worth of speed, enjoyment and performance. No.

Type of riding you do, you wont even notice the wheels after a few weeks.

[Gothard]

If you use deep rims, and live in a hilly/windy area, you have to *use* them. There is an acclimatation phase, the deep rims catching wind, enough that it can be disturbing (even moreso at 40+).
I am now switching my 303s for Enve 25s, to reduce the wind susceptibility.

[slinkywizard]

I have a pair of Lightweights Gen III's and a pair of Campagnolo Neutron's amongst my wheels. Both are tubular. Both are quite fantastic. However, I prefer the Neutrons over the LW's for most riding I do. I find that I worry less about damage, riding in less than ideal condition (rain, gravel roads etc) and most importantly, the Neutrons are much less susceptible to wind. Most of the riding I do is in the mountains nowadays and although the LW's probably save me more than half a kilo of rotational weight, they are pretty twitchy riding 1500+m descents at 70-80 km/h, not even to mention how they react to crosswinds. The Neutrons feel much more solid and are nice and predictable. Don't get me wrong: the LW's put a big grin on my face every time I ride them. Super stiff laterally, pretty comfortable, spin up really fast, weigh almost nothing, but for rides over 100 km with lot's of climbing (and descending...), I prefer the Neutrons (that I picked up used for just over 1/10th of what I spent on the LW's).

[oldguy00]

I like the feel of my carbon tubulars (Easton EC90 Aero) more than my aluminum wheels (CK Classic hubs, HED Belgium tubie rims). Much more, actually. And I like the way they look on my bike more than my aluminum wheels.
Those two things make them worth it. Are they winning me more races? Highly doubtful! But they make me want to ride my bike more. :)

That said, everyone's budget is different. 2k is a mere drop in the bucket for some (not me). If you are budget minded, wait for nashbar to put out a 10-20% off coupon, and grab a set of Easton EC90 Aero tubies from them for about 1k.

[oldpotatoe]

Having raced my fair share of aero wheels, from a single 80mm deep crit destroyer in the front to a full carbon tubular set, honestly...no.

It's the motor that matters, anyone in a race can demonstrate that - he or she who is most prepared and on his or her best day will take away the win regardless of equipment.

Now, if the choice was between EPS and a new wheelset, go for the wheels.

EPS sucks. It sucks to set up, it sucks in terms of durability.

I say this is as a full-time Campy user.

Nice thread drift..I have sold and set up many EPS groups, have had no issues, either in set up or reliability.

I say this as a wrench..same for Di2..pretty easy actually, just gotta make sure the connectors are connected and not damaged.

Now, back to the original thread......If yer gonna do carbon wheels, do tubulars.

[laupsi]

I have a pair of Lightweights Gen III's and a pair of Campagnolo Neutron's amongst my wheels. Both are tubular. Both are quite fantastic. However, I prefer the Neutrons over the LW's for most riding I do. I find that I worry less about damage, riding in less than ideal condition (rain, gravel roads etc) and most importantly, the Neutrons are much less susceptible to wind. Most of the riding I do is in the mountains nowadays and although the LW's probably save me more than half a kilo of rotational weight, they are pretty twitchy riding 1500+m descents at 70-80 km/h, not even to mention how they react to crosswinds. The Neutrons feel much more solid and are nice and predictable. Don't get me wrong: the LW's put a big grin on my face every time I ride them. Super stiff laterally, pretty comfortable, spin up really fast, weigh almost nothing, but for rides over 100 km with lot's of climbing (and descending...), I prefer the Neutrons (that I picked up used for just over 1/10th of what I spent on the LW's).

I couldn't disagree more. there is a night to day difference between my carbon LW wheels and the other aluminum sets I own. a lot of it comes down to experience and purpose. there is some wind effect that exists w/any deep dish wheel but riding them and getting use to this is all part of the process. the carbon wheels today are pricey but they are more rigid, lighter and most important faster. if you have the money it is worth it.

also, LW's are probably the most durable of the carbon class, almost bomb proof. I've been racing on them and training on two different sets, both tubulars, for around 1.5 years weekly and have had zero issues. I live in an urban setting and I ride em hard. I would imagine if you're the original owner of any carbon set and register them you should be covered for defects barring any crashes. LW does offer crash protection but it does cost more. just went to market for some Enve 3.4 myself but not due to arrive for another 4 weeks. this set will be a clincher set. I will reply on a separate thread of their performance once ridden.

finally, to chime in on Old Potato's comments; going tubular is a lighter wheel however there is some rolling imbalance due to the stem on most tubulars, a sort of ridge that doesn't exist w/clinchers. those riding tubulars should relate to this, however I do believe overall going tubular is the way to go, especially for racing.

[oldguy00]

....
finally, to chime in on Old Potato's comments; going tubular is a lighter wheel however there is some rolling imbalance due to the stem on most tubulars, a sort of ridge that doesn't exist w/clinchers. those riding tubulars should relate to this, however I do believe overall going tubular is the way to go, especially for racing.

Been on tubies for 20 years. I agree with your statement about the little ridge/bump, but as long as I am using high quality tubies (Conti Comps, Vittoria CX's, Veloflex Carbon, etc), I've rarely if ever noticed it while actually riding.

Clinchers still technically have lower rolling resistance too, but I prefer the tubies due to the lower amount of flat tires.

[laupsi]

Clinchers still technically have lower rolling resistance too, but I prefer the tubies due to the lower amount of flat tires.

agreed again. don't want to jinx myself but haven't had a single flat w/my tubbies, but I chalk this up to Stan the man and his magical white goo! :cool:

[oldguy00]

agreed again. don't want to jinx myself but haven't had a single flat w/my tubbies, but I chalk this up to Stan the man and his magical white goo! :cool:

I haven't tried any of the goos yet, but I do carry a can of vittoria pit stop on longer rides, and longer triathlon races (half IM's and IM's). I've probably averaged about 1 flat every 2.5 years.

[slinkywizard]

I couldn't disagree more.

Don't get me wrong...I love my LW's...fantastic wheelset...:cool:
But, for alpine riding, in particular when there is a lot of wind...the neutrons are just easier to ride imho. With the LW's I find myself constantly having to correct when it's blustery. I guess that's why they came out with the Ventoux. I also don't mind getting dropped or overtaken on climbs as much when riding a less conspicuous wheelset...;)

[rockdude]

I have a pair of Lightweights Gen III's and a pair of Campagnolo Neutron's amongst my wheels. Both are tubular. Both are quite fantastic. However, I prefer the Neutrons over the LW's for most riding I do. I find that I worry less about damage, riding in less than ideal condition (rain, gravel roads etc) and most importantly, the Neutrons are much less susceptible to wind. Most of the riding I do is in the mountains nowadays and although the LW's probably save me more than half a kilo of rotational weight, they are pretty twitchy riding 1500+m descents at 70-80 km/h, not even to mention how they react to crosswinds. The Neutrons feel much more solid and are nice and predictable. Don't get me wrong: the LW's put a big grin on my face every time I ride them. Super stiff laterally, pretty comfortable, spin up really fast, weigh almost nothing, but for rides over 100 km with lot's of climbing (and descending...), I prefer the Neutrons (that I picked up used for just over 1/10th of what I spent on the LW's).

1+ I prefer my Neutron over the LW Obermayers that I owned!

I owned nine sets of Carbon and eight sets of Al wheels. My AL wheels are just as good as my Carbon.

[FlashUNC]

I don't know anyone local who uses Campy. :(

Hey now, I'm not too far down the road and I'm all Campy 11.



Now, if the choice was between EPS and a new wheelset, go for the wheels.

EPS sucks. It sucks to set up, it sucks in terms of durability.

I say this is as a full-time Campy user.

Nice thread drift..I have sold and set up many EPS groups, have had no issues, either in set up or reliability.

I say this as a wrench..same for Di2..pretty easy actually, just gotta make sure the connectors are connected and not damaged.

.

Not sure your experience with EPS, but mine was pretty straightforward to install (even as externally routed) and the adjustment was the fastest I've ever had setting up a group. Group's given me zero problems so far with better performance than any of my mechanical groups. Maybe Campy shook some of the bugs out with the Athena stuff, but no problems so far. I'm a big fan.

[oldpotatoe]

Hey now, I'm not too far down the road and I'm all Campy 11.






Not sure your experience with EPS, but mine was pretty straightforward to install (even as externally routed) and the adjustment was the fastest I've ever had setting up a group. Group's given me zero problems so far with better performance than any of my mechanical groups. Maybe Campy shook some of the bugs out with the Athena stuff, but no problems so far. I'm a big fan.

I don get it either. The biggest thing I have noticed is after I installed the stuff, I don't see that customer as often...

Very easy, very straight forward, no 'operator technique' involved, push buttons, look for light, center 2nd cog, push button, watch for flash..go to 10th cog..center, push button...easy.......I had a guy that had a 'bad' Di2(first gen, 10s DA), maybe the gent that thinks it sucks, got a 'bad' something. My wife's first iphone 4s had to be returned also, volume didn't work....

[carpediemracing]

Back to wheels - for training I prefer lighter wheels over more aero. I average 17 mph on a great day, 15 mph on a normal, and 12-14 mph on long or bad days. Peak speeds on flats might be 35 mph for a bit but I don't make those efforts too often. In races I'm usually in the 25-27 mph range but regularly see 30-35 mph, sprinting closer to 40 mph, and I'm riding about as hard as I can.

When I had DV46 tubulars and clinchers I loved training on the clinchers. They were light, they were stiff, and they were manageable everywhere except on 45+ mph descents in gusty wind.

When I went "wide" I switched wheels wholesale. I went all HED - Ardennes clinchers, Jet 6/9 clinchers, and Stinger 6 tubulars. The hubs are the same across all the wheels, and other than spoke count so are the spokes (all the same year, 2010).

I really believed that the aero advantage of the 6/9 would benefit me. Ultimately I stopped using the 6 almost immediately, the 9 a little while later. I have both wheels but prefer to train on the Ardennes rimmed wheels. Lighter, I don't go fast enough to really need aero, and even when I go to draft trucks (usually 45-50 mph) I can't accelerate as fast on the 6/9 or just the 9, enough so that I'm cooked when I get into the draft. On the Ardennes I have a chance after I catch the truck.

I would like to get aero 1500-1600g clinchers. If I could those would be great all round wheels. I chose to get taller/more-aero tubulars for races (Stinger 7/9) and skipped getting better training wheels.

For brake pads I use Koolstop pads on both aluminum and carbon wheels. I used Swisstop yellows with the Reynolds, didn't bother changing the pads, saw no problems, so rode like that for about a year before getting the carbon clinchers. When I went HED I had black Koolstop pads, wore out two sets of those, then went to the salmon or the salmon/black combo Koolstop.

My carbon rims look fine in terms of wear. Granted, I don't do road races so no 55-60 mph descents and all that, but still, I do get on the binders hard here and there, and I use them regularly in training when I'm on the aluminum rims.

[soulspinner]

Back to wheels - for training I prefer lighter wheels over more aero. I average 17 mph on a great day, 15 mph on a normal, and 12-14 mph on long or bad days. Peak speeds on flats might be 35 mph for a bit but I don't make those efforts too often. In races I'm usually in the 25-27 mph range but regularly see 30-35 mph, sprinting closer to 40 mph, and I'm riding about as hard as I can.

When I had DV46 tubulars and clinchers I loved training on the clinchers. They were light, they were stiff, and they were manageable everywhere except on 45+ mph descents in gusty wind.

When I went "wide" I switched wheels wholesale. I went all HED - Ardennes clinchers, Jet 6/9 clinchers, and Stinger 6 tubulars. The hubs are the same across all the wheels, and other than spoke count so are the spokes (all the same year, 2010).

I really believed that the aero advantage of the 6/9 would benefit me. Ultimately I stopped using the 6 almost immediately, the 9 a little while later. I have both wheels but prefer to train on the Ardennes rimmed wheels. Lighter, I don't go fast enough to really need aero, and even when I go to draft trucks (usually 45-50 mph) I can't accelerate as fast on the 6/9 or just the 9, enough so that I'm cooked when I get into the draft. On the Ardennes I have a chance after I catch the truck.

I would like to get aero 1500-1600g clinchers. If I could those would be great all round wheels. I chose to get taller/more-aero tubulars for races (Stinger 7/9) and skipped getting better training wheels.

For brake pads I use Koolstop pads on both aluminum and carbon wheels. I used Swisstop yellows with the Reynolds, didn't bother changing the pads, saw no problems, so rode like that for about a year before getting the carbon clinchers. When I went HED I had black Koolstop pads, wore out two sets of those, then went to the salmon or the salmon/black combo Koolstop.

My carbon rims look fine in terms of wear. Granted, I don't do road races so no 55-60 mph descents and all that, but still, I do get on the binders hard here and there, and I use them regularly in training when I'm on the aluminum rims.

This makes perfect sense to me. Problem Ive found is deep alu clinchers dont have the same ride quality...YMMV

[LegendRider]

Does anyone know where to get clincher Enve 3.4s below the $2900 MSRP?

[mtechnica]

My Enve's have increased my flat speed by 3Mph and my climbing 1-2mph.

hahahaha if this were not BS I could go from cat 5 to cat 2 next season just by switching wheels!

[dd74]

I ride Bora Ultra 2 carbon tubulars. Very strong and fast wheel set. The stability factor in crosswinds simply depends upon how stable the rider is. You just have to be careful and aware. If you get twitchy, slow down.

EPS? By far the best groupset I've ever owned, including mechanical Campy 11.

So here's the original poster's answer: C59 or Z1, Campy or Lightweight Carbon wheels, and EPS. Finito.

[rnhood]

Amortizing the value (http://windinmyface.com/blog/2013/20130808_1-enjoying-the-ride-amortized.html). Do you buy several wheelsets and/or bikes, or do you just get the best you can, and ride it for the long haul? Often going to the pinnacle will save money in the long run, though part of the fun is change sometimes.

[mike p]

I love carbon wheels. I race a decent amount and they do make me "feel" faster. Whether or not it makes much of a physical difference I'm not sure but it deffinetly makes a mental difference and that's very important.
I've never owned real high end carbon. Right now I have DA C-50's, DA C-35's, Reynolds DV-46's, Reynolds Assults and a pair of Mavic Carbones. The most I ever paid for a pair was 1100. Most were bought used. I've ridden the new "wide wheels" and saw little benefit. I'm not bothered much by crosswind regardless of wheel depth (a plus to being a fatass).
Also I'd much rather have a steel, Ti, or Al frame with a nice set of carbon wheels than a nice carbon ride with AL wheels.

Mike

[Climb01742]

I owned nine sets of Carbon and eight sets of Al wheels. My AL wheels are just as good as my Carbon.

interesting. and which of your aluminum wheels do you like best? thanks.

to the OP, as others have said, deeper rims are impacted by winds. yes, you do learn to compensate, but for me, for an everyday wheel, i find i like lower profile rims better. there are enough variables out on the road. of course, maybe if i was faster...;)

[weaponsgrade]

I don't race and I ride zipp 303 tubulars. I definitely felt a difference when switching from alloy clinchers. I don't know if they actually made a difference, but they sure are fun to ride. If u can afford the enves I'd get them. Under $2k sounds like a deal.

[kramnnim]

Appreciate all the responses thus far...

I should have mentioned that it's not overly windy here...just in the winter when I'd likely want to use my alloy wheels.

And yes...I have a hard time passing up a bargain. But $2k is a lot of money...

[firerescuefin]

My enve 6.7s are the most stable carbon wheel I've ever ridden. Enves SMARTS are a different animal than most of the wheels listed here...and they are designed to be ridden...not just raced. Mine stay on my bike. Buy them.

[pitcrew]

I don't know anyone local who uses Campy. :(

I won't hold the Campy thing against you ;)

If you don't let me forget, I can probably track down a loaner set for you.

[norcalbiker]

So...I've been wanting carbon rims for a while, but have yet to pull the trigger.

My current main bike is a Look 586 with Chorus 11.

I have these wheels that I am thinking of selling. It's a set of Reynolds 46's with an extra Reynolds 66 rear when I do totally flat ride. Both rear wheels has a DT 240 hubs with 11 speed campy spline.

Is it worth it? Probably not for me.
Does it make me happy when I ride them? Yes.

I have 3 bikes and this bike is always my last choice because when I go for a ride it's almost always involves climbing.

[rice rocket]

My enve 6.7s are the most stable carbon wheel I've ever ridden. Enves SMARTS are a different animal than most of the wheels listed here...and they are designed to be ridden...not just raced. Mine stay on my bike. Buy them.

Not to go off on a huge tangent, but the 6.7 carbon clinchers are only a 50g penalty over the tubies.

Is there really a reason to go tubular anymore then?

[rinconryder]

The only reason I can think of to go tubies over clincher(ride aside) is blowing a tube from over heating.

[cfox]

The 3.4's are great wheels, you'd love them. Light, stiff, good in crosswinds, look sweet. Lighter wheels transform your bike like nothing else, don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

Re: tubies vs clinchers...beside all the obvious advantages of tubulars (!), with high zoot wheels, in the event of a clincher blowout the risk of damage to the sidewalls of is very real. I wouldn't want a blow-out and find myself rolling on a $900 carbon sidewall.

[VirtualElvis]

I just got my first pair of carbon wheels this week.
10 year old zipp 404 tubulars with $38.00 tufo tubulars on them,
I can't even imagine what this is going to be like with $120 tires on them. I have a look 585
And I can't take these off my bike! Even with no spare and only a can of vittoria pit stop, iould rather
Walk 15 miles in bare feet than put my carbones back on and let these sit in the house.
I love my carbones....but this is a hole different animal. A scawy fast smoooooth animal!
I hope this helps..... Really I couldn't imagine they would be this nice.... Or the difference between the two wheelsets
would be so noticeable. I am going to ride them like I stole them....and save for the next pair?
Are tubular aluminium wheelsets this nice?


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[sfscott]

Does anyone know where to get clincher Enve 3.4s below the $2900 MSRP?

Been a little while since I ordered, but they will build you a custom Enve with your choice of hubs and spokes. I believe it was several hundred under MSRP at the time.

[dd74]

If you do get carbon wheels, give tubulars some very strong consideration. A friend of mine sold his Lightweight Meilenstein clinchers for the very fear of overheating the rim when braking. He's somewhat of a clyde, so he had reason.

The guy who bought his wheels, who was also a bit larger, did overheat the rim, blew a tire, and effectively ruined a $4K pair of handmade hoops.

[Ti Designs]

I've been doing a fair amount of product testing this season, one area of focus was on carbon clincher wheels. I've tried wheels from Roval, Enve, Zipp, Mavic and Easton. To be honest, when I started test riding wheels I could care less about the wheel or it's performance. My thinking was that I was going to be on each wheels set for a few weeks, so I would hand back a set of wheels with a worn out rear tire - and my cost for tires for the season would be zero!!! Then I rode some of the wheels. wow.

From a rider perspective, they come in two flavors, the air foil shaped ones and the big fat ones. The big fat ones (like the Zipp Firecrest series) have about the same profile from either direction of the rim, 'cause the trailing edge of the wheel also has to move forward. The are perhaps more efficient, certainly more stable in crosswinds, and due to the cross section of the wheel it should be possible to make them more durable. The air foil shaped rims have one advantage - acceleration. I don't doubts that the larger ribs are faster in a time trial and far more stable in a cross wind, but in racing (and let's face it, any four guys on bikes wearing lycra is a bike race) it's not about average speed, it's all about who hangs when it gets really fast. The thin, airfoil shaped wheels allow me to react to attacks.

And then there's the noise. Zipp 303's are loud!!! Every time I stopped pedaling the real wheel screamed "I'm the poser who showed up on a training ride with full carbon wheels...

[fogrider]

I've been doing a fair amount of product testing this season, one area of focus was on carbon clincher wheels. I've tried wheels from Roval, Enve, Zipp, Mavic and Easton. To be honest, when I started test riding wheels I could care less about the wheel or it's performance. My thinking was that I was going to be on each wheels set for a few weeks, so I would hand back a set of wheels with a worn out rear tire - and my cost for tires for the season would be zero!!! Then I rode some of the wheels. wow.

The air foil shaped rims have one advantage - acceleration. I don't doubts that the larger ribs are faster in a time trial and far more stable in a cross wind, but in racing (and let's face it, any four guys on bikes wearing lycra is a bike race) it's not about average speed, it's all about who hangs when it gets really fast. The thin, airfoil shaped wheels allow me to react to attacks.
.

yeah, I really feel the difference between aluminum and carbon rims. carbon rims spin up fast! at any speed, I know I can accelerate and hang with someone trying to sprint out...I know I can't do that with aluminum rims.

I don't race, but I do ride with a few other guys on the weekends...so I train on aluminum rims during the week and carbon tubies on the weekends and I notice a difference!

[mtechnica]

Strive to have the best form possible, bikes come and go, and objectively you can probably afford or already have a bike that's more or less as fast as any of theirs so this is really nothing more than lusting over material objects.

[VirtualElvis]

Strive to have the best form possible, bikes come and go, and objectively you can probably afford or already have a bike that's more or less as fast as any of theirs so this is really nothing more than lusting over material objects.

Ommmmmmmmmmmm


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[OtayBW]

I've been doing a fair amount of product testing this season, one area of focus was on carbon clincher wheels. I've tried wheels from Roval, Enve, Zipp, Mavic and Easton. To be honest, when I started test riding wheels I could care less about the wheel or it's performance. My thinking was that I was going to be on each wheels set for a few weeks, so I would hand back a set of wheels with a worn out rear tire - and my cost for tires for the season would be zero!!! Then I rode some of the wheels. wow.

From a rider perspective, they come in two flavors, the air foil shaped ones and the big fat ones. The big fat ones (like the Zipp Firecrest series) have about the same profile from either direction of the rim, 'cause the trailing edge of the wheel also has to move forward. The are perhaps more efficient, certainly more stable in crosswinds, and due to the cross section of the wheel it should be possible to make them more durable. The air foil shaped rims have one advantage - acceleration. I don't doubts that the larger ribs are faster in a time trial and far more stable in a cross wind, but in racing (and let's face it, any four guys on bikes wearing lycra is a bike race) it's not about average speed, it's all about who hangs when it gets really fast. The thin, airfoil shaped wheels allow me to react to attacks.
...
Any feedback on the other wheels? Thx.

[bshell]

They are fantastic. Plain and simple. I will buy whatever pair you are considering if you decide not to and I will put them on my CX bike. As long as they are Chris King R45 Campy and clincher. Personally, I would never use tubulars on anything. And I don't believe in 'special occasion' wheels. Life's too short. Buy good stuff and then ride that ····· *every day*. If you wreck 'em, get another rim laced up. Enve will make more.

I rode Campy Neutrons for 10 years. Cracked 3 freehub bodies but overall, great performers. Finally got some cracks at the holes and decided to try out this wide rim thing. I cannot recommend the 3.4's enough. Faster than the Neutrons but I'm not sure if that is due to fewer spokes chopping the wind or the aerodynamics of the SMART design. Stiff, light, slightly better tire profile, definitely better than the Neutrons in crosswinds (and they were pretty good), tires removable w/o levers (ask anyone w/Neutrons about that). Understated looks, non-proprietary spokes. Five year warranty. Crash replacement program.

If I had to come up w/ a negative besides price, I will concede that the braking is not as good as an aluminum brake track but I have adjusted just fine.

I don't race. I ride a lot. Alone. For fun. There will be a second pair for me one day...

[echappist]

My Enve's have increased my flat speed by 3Mph and my climbing 1-2mph. A lot of this could be argued that maybe it was because i was riding more, less headwind this time or that....etc.

it's all of the above except for the reasons you attribute to the wheels.

improve climbing by 1-2mph, even going from 15 to 16 mph on a 4% hill, requires 30 extra watts. Improving on flat grounds from 20 to 23 mph requires 80 watts. Sorry to break it to you, but a lighter, more aero set of wheels makes you marginally faster, not significantly faster.

[mike p]

Well, makes you feel 1 or 2 mph faster anyway :-)

Mike

[carpediemracing]

A note on the new tubular carbons. The wider rims (Firecrest, HED SCT series, etc) have a rim that typically wraps a bit more of the tire than a regular width tubular (DV46, for example).

One of the reasons I like tubulars in races, other than the lighter overall weight, is the safety/reliability - virtually no pinch flats and if you have a massive tire failure you can still ride the bike. You can pinch flat a tubular but you're probably breaking rims while you're doing it. With clinchers if you blow out a tire while totally leaned over at 30 mph you're probably going to hit the deck. I have not seen one rider recover from such an incident, and in fact I can think of 3 crashes in the last few years caused by exactly that.

With the DV46 tubulars I have watched (in fact they were my wheels, under a teammate about 20 meters in front of me) a rider have a sudden front tire failure mid turn at about 30 mph and stay upright. He even made it through the turn fine. Obviously the tire had to be glued properly (I glued them) but he was a relatively new racer that has never mountain bikes, never done cross, avoids rainy rides, etc - he's just a regular road rider and he could stay upright.

I think that with the HEDs I have, the wider rim ones, a flat won't be as recoverable because the rim really intrudes upwards. It definitely won't be rideable on a flat, at least not without damaging that lip, although I'll admit that I probably wouldn't ride a flat tired DV46 very far either (I've ridden very hard on a front flat tubular on an aluminum rim, with very high confidence except on turns).

As far as speed goes when you get into the unsustainable efforts, 1200-1500+ watts for me, in a perfect storm type situation like a cross-tailwind, aero wheels do give me a significant (to me) benefit. It seems aero wheels make the most difference when they act like sails, i.e. cross-tailwind.

[beeatnik]

it's all of the above except for the reasons you attribute to the wheels.

improve climbing by 1-2mph, even going from 15 to 16 mph on a 4% hill, requires 30 extra watts. Improving on flat grounds from 20 to 23 mph requires 80 watts. Sorry to break it to you, but a lighter, more aero set of wheels makes you marginally faster, not significantly faster.

But they are magic wheels! Gots to be if they retail for 3 grand, rite?

[Derailer]

My carbon wheels (Reynolds DV46 clinchers) didn't make me any faster, I don't think. But they did have far less stopping power (particularly when wet) than their aluminum counterparts Also, while I wouldn't say I was paranoid about the wheels exploding underneath me, I did tend to worry about road surfaces and potholes more, and I did from time to time feel the need to inspect the wheels to make sure they weren't delaminating or otherwise giving out (they weren't).

Ultimately, I didn't find the small hassle of carbon to be worth the bling-factor, and so I bought a pair of new Campy Neutron Ultra clinchers for $600. I love, love, love the Neutrons and don't plan on going back to carbon until I can afford a wonderbike and a set of high-end, ultralight carbon tubulars.

[martl]

Anyway, those of you with "fancy" carbon wheels- are they worth it? I don't race, and have no plans to start...it's more of a "add to the joy of riding" sort of thing.
I bought me a set of CFK wheels back in the days when weight was important and i still raced occasionally. (2nd hand Original D&O Lightweights with Dura Ace 9spd hub, running with a conversion Campa 10spd-setup). That was in 2003. I still have them, cherish them, love to ride them. The feel of the ride whenever i decide to use them, and be it on a 40km sunday afternoon stroll, till today puts a smile on my face. No plans of selling them/stop using them.
I rode them a lot in the alps, on fast descents and in the rain. Contrary to common belief, i am still alive and had no troublesome situations so far. Considering their resale value today, one of my best value/money bike related purchases ever (the frame i bought them for, a Scott Team Issue Sc, lost about 98% of its initial price/value in the same time :D)

But CFK wheel <> CFK wheel, it depends a lot on wich specific specimen you get. I'm not Mr. current affairs on bike tech any more, but 10 years ago, there were a lot of wheels considered hot which were utter crap from a today's standpoint.

[martl]

virtually no pinch flats and if you have a massive tire failure you can still ride the bike.
you can, but chances are you'll damage your CFK rims in a very, very short time. A blowout of a tubular is more controllable than a clincher tire's, but it is adviseable to stop very, very fast. I know people who ruined a 1500€ wheel by trying to reach the mechanics car on a punctured tire. That was no more than a km or so.

[slinkywizard]

I love, love, love the Neutrons and don't plan on going back to carbon until I can afford a wonderbike and a set of high-end, ultralight carbon tubulars.

Same here. I have the older tubular version though. I did a nice alpine 180k with 4000+ meters of climbing on them this weekend and I felt blessed to be riding them. Climbing was just fine even though they aren't the lightest. It was on the descents though that they revealed their true greateness: Rock solid, super smooth (especially paired with 25mm Veloflex Arenbergs), great braking and zero susceptibility to the harsh wind that was blowing going down several of the passes. I really do not know what more I could wish for. For a ride like this weekend's, I'd choose the Neutrons over my Lightweight Gen. III's in a heartbeat anytime. Better braking and less sensitive to wind are the most important factors for me. I love these wheels!

[oldpotatoe]

But they are magic wheels! Gots to be if they retail for 3 grand, rite?

Originally Posted by echappist View Post
it's all of the above except for the reasons you attribute to the wheels.

improve climbing by 1-2mph, even going from 15 to 16 mph on a 4% hill, requires 30 extra watts. Improving on flat grounds from 20 to 23 mph requires 80 watts. Sorry to break it to you, but a lighter, more aero set of wheels makes you marginally faster, not significantly faster.


reality, what a concept.

[Mark McM]

From a rider perspective, they come in two flavors, the air foil shaped ones and the big fat ones. The big fat ones (like the Zipp Firecrest series) have about the same profile from either direction of the rim, 'cause the trailing edge of the wheel also has to move forward. The are perhaps more efficient, certainly more stable in crosswinds, and due to the cross section of the wheel it should be possible to make them more durable. The air foil shaped rims have one advantage - acceleration. I don't doubts that the larger ribs are faster in a time trial and far more stable in a cross wind, but in racing (and let's face it, any four guys on bikes wearing lycra is a bike race) it's not about average speed, it's all about who hangs when it gets really fast. The thin, airfoil shaped wheels allow me to react to attacks.

What property of the air foil shaped rims make them accelerate faster? Is it just lower weight? In which case, I'm not sure it really works that way, since most studies have shown that aero trumps weight (even during hard accelerations).

[Ralph]

I was over at my sons house yesterday, (Jonathan Greene Cycles), and he was showing me a set of carbon wheels. They were carbon rims on 24/28 White Industris Hubs. Man were they light. Looked well made and strong. White Industries hubs very nice also. I can see how climbing and accelerating might be helped with wheels like that. Don't know if riding on flats w/b improved. You would lose some fly wheel effect I would think. Slightly heavier aluminum might be just as good for my riding.

But I did drool over them. Alas....they were tubular....and I rode tubulars for 30 years....and refuse to go back to them....otherwise....still drooling.

[GT2R]

I bought a set of Edge clinchers for my wife to ride in triathlons and then I can slip them on my roadie. White hubs 24/28 on Edge 68 f and r. Wife is tall and light so 10-15 mph winds blow her around a lot. I am tall and also light and they aren't too bad for me but if you ride a shallower front it is much better.

They ride nice, are light, and have been problem free. I agree with the sail effect with a tail/tail cross comment. There is a distinct loss of braking in the wet as others have mentioned.

To answer the OPs question, no they aren't worth it, but they sure are nice if you can spare the change!

[firerescuefin]

I bought a set of Edge clinchers for my wife to ride in triathlons and then I can slip them on my roadie. White hubs 24/28 on Edge 68 f and r. Wife is tall and light so 10-15 mph winds blow her around a lot. I am tall and also light and they aren't too bad for me but if you ride a shallower front it is much better.

They ride nice, are light, and have been problem free. I agree with the sail effect with a tail/tail cross comment. There is a distinct loss of braking in the wet as others have mentioned.

To answer the OPs question, no they aren't worth it, but they sure are nice if you can spare the change!

FYI...been mentioned before...The Enve/Edge SMART system is quite a bit more stable and brakes better than the previous generation of Edge wheels.

[GT2R]

I have heard they are improved. I significantly reduced my cycling over the last few years, but I'm back and although there is nothing wrong with my equipment, some of the new gear is tempting.

[kramnnim]

Well, my shiny 3.4's arrived today. Rushed home to try them out, got 55 miles in. I thought they would feel more harsh than my old wheels, but they seem to deaden/muffle the road chatter.

[regularguy412]

Well, my shiny 3.4's arrived today. Rushed home to try them out, got 55 miles in. I thought they would feel more harsh than my old wheels, but they seem to deaden/muffle the road chatter.

I can definitely feel an improvement in my Easton EC90 SLs over my Open Pros. The carbon wheels are definitely stiffer and more responsive, but, as you rightly stated, not as harsh.

Sunday before last, I rode a 70 mile course that I have done a few times before. My previous best time was 4 hours 5 minutes. There are some hills and some flat. It's a big loop, so I get both help and hindrance from any wind. This time I rode it in 3 hours 50 minutes. Main difference this time, I think, was that this was the first time I had done it with my Easton's on. I definitely finished tired from the distance, but not beat up from the road.

Interesting that wheels can make that much difference - both in feel and performance.

Mike in AR:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

I can definitely feel an improvement in my Easton EC90 SLs over my Open Pros. The carbon wheels are definitely stiffer and more responsive, but, as you rightly stated, not as harsh.

Sunday before last, I rode a 70 mile course that I have done a few times before. My previous best time was 4 hours 5 minutes. There are some hills and some flat. It's a big loop, so I get both help and hindrance from any wind. This time I rode it in 3 hours 50 minutes. Main difference this time, I think, was that this was the first time I had done it with my Easton's on. I definitely finished tired from the distance, but not beat up from the road.

Interesting that wheels can make that much difference - both in feel and performance.

Mike in AR:beer:

15 minute difference, Over 70 miles.

1mph faster over 70 miles. Almost 6% increase...

'maybe' some psychology involved?

Glad ya like the wheels.

[summilux]

'maybe' some psychology involved?

A good psychologist will cost more than a pair of ENVE 3.4. More fun too.

[thegunner]

1mph faster over 70 miles. Almost 6% increase...

the effects of power savings get magnified over time :) 3 or 5 watts less for the first 2 hours pays itself back hugely in hours 3 and 4!

also pretty realistic if he went from kysriums to the 3.4s.

[rinconryder]

Yes. Aero helmet, bike, wheels all have marginal gains of somewhere between 3 to 5 watts but when you total it up it can be somewhere between 15 and 20. For a rider who rides at 200 watts for 5 hours, that is about a 10% savings, which is quite substantial. And for the pros, when you are winning or losing TTs by single digit seconds, it makes all the difference in the world.

the effects of power savings get magnified over time :) 3 or 5 watts less for the first 2 hours pays itself back hugely in hours 3 and 4!

also pretty realistic if he went from kysriums to the 3.4s.

[AngryScientist]

15 minute difference, Over 70 miles.

1mph faster over 70 miles. Almost 6% increase...

'maybe' some psychology involved?

Glad ya like the wheels.

it really gets old when people poo poo modern technology constantly. if we were to all listen to this kind of rhetoric, we would:

-ride a heavy steel frame, it only weighs two water bottles more than a carbon bike
-ride 48 spoke wheels, those extra spokes only weigh as much as a power bar.
-never ride carbon wheels, it's all "psychology"
-clip in pedals! eddie didnt need those!


bla bla bla.

[echappist]

it really gets old when people poo poo modern technology constantly. if we were to all listen to this kind of rhetoric, we would:

-ride a heavy steel frame, it only weighs two water bottles more than a carbon bike
-ride 48 spoke wheels, those extra spokes only weigh as much as a power bar.
-never ride carbon wheels, it's all "psychology"
-clip in pedals! eddie didnt need those!


bla bla bla.
no one is poo-pooing modern technology (i ride an aero frame set with aero wheels), but almost everyone is exaggerating their effects

Yes. Aero helmet, bike, wheels all have marginal gains of somewhere between 3 to 5 watts but when you total it up it can be somewhere between 15 and 20. For a rider who rides at 200 watts for 5 hours, that is about a 10% savings, which is quite substantial. And for the pros, when you are winning or losing TTs by single digit seconds, it makes all the difference in the world.

Two points: your general gist is correct. All added up, aero gains will save you quite a bit.

As for this particular case, I'm saying that wind, psychological effects, etc, probably had more to do for helping the poster go from 17.5 to 18.5 mph avg.

Rule of thumb is 50 gram of drag reduction at 30mph is worth 5 watts. A really aero set of wheels (think wide-rim 60mm deep such as Stinger 6/7, Enve 6.7, or Firecrest 404) may save you 250 grams over stock 32F/R. The EC90 SL is 38mm deep and won't save you that much. So for the uber aero wheels (250 g saving), at 18.3mph, that's 6 W, which save you 0.4 mph. For a wheel that saves you 150 g at 30mph, that's 3-4 W, which is about 0.2-0.3 mph, or about 3-4 minutes.

And if you think that the gains come from the weight savings on the climbs, well, losing 1.5 lbs from wheel weight may save you 0.1 mph, which still doesn't total up to more than 1mph in speed gains.

So verdict. Like the wheels b/c it looks cool, make you feel fast, etc? Sure. But you'd be fooling yourself to think that they alone help you go from 17.2mph to 18.2mph.

[firerescuefin]

15 minute difference, Over 70 miles.

1mph faster over 70 miles. Almost 6% increase...

'maybe' some psychology involved?

Glad ya like the wheels.

Peter...thankfully for you (and pretty much all bike shops)

Buying new stuff is much more about lust/psychology than need and absolute performance.

I ride a carbon bike with deep dish tubulars (pretty much exclusively).

"You don't need those wheels/ you're an idiot for training on those"....

Yep, and just like my kid feels faster and smiles wider running in his new tennis shoes, I do the same on my bike...and I am faster with them by the way:bike:

[regularguy412]

15 minute difference, Over 70 miles.

1mph faster over 70 miles. Almost 6% increase...

'maybe' some psychology involved?

Glad ya like the wheels.

It's actually been about 2 years since I last did that loop. I had mapped it on Map My Ride, the last time I did it. I don't remember the wind conditions and I didn't write the conditions in the notes when I mapped it. I just know that I was riding my 32 hole Open Pros and Vredestein Fortezza SE clinchers. The Easton's are definitely more aero than the OP's and the clinchers + tubes are substantially heavier than the Continental Comp GP 19s that I'm running on the Easton wheels. It could also be that I'm a bit more fit now than I was then. The main thing I remember about this most recent ride compared to the previous one is that I don't feel like I rode as 'hard' this time and still cut 15 minutes off the elapsed time.

So I'll concede that the time gain may not wholly be due to the wheel set, but I'll guarantee you that they made some positive difference.

But,, to each his own. The OP will just have to ride a set to see. After all he 'did' ask for opinions and experiences. And Oh BTW, my Easton EC90s didn't cost $5K or $3K or even $2K. I got'em on sale for just over $1K. That included the 'new' heat resistant brake track and a no-weight-limit guarantee. IMHO, they are certainly worth THAT money. I'd still rather ride them than any other wheel set I've EVER owned. :)

Mike in AR:beer:

[oldpotatoe]

Angry[/B]Scientist;1428842]it really gets old when people poo poo modern technology constantly. if we were to all listen to this kind of rhetoric, we would:

-ride a heavy steel frame, it only weighs two water bottles more than a carbon bike
-ride 48 spoke wheels, those extra spokes only weigh as much as a power bar.
-never ride carbon wheels, it's all "psychology"
-clip in pedals! eddie didnt need those!


bla bla bla.

Rhetoric indeed. on both sides of the spectrum.

-Carbon is the answer to all cycling issues or problems
-Deep carbon wheels will make you ride better, look prettier, the sun will shine more brightly, the roses smell more sweetly

-Yep
-nope-36h
-I don't
-sore knees

yada, yada.

If 'modern technology' actually made riding better, safer, easier, cheaper then...

There really hasn't been real innovation in bicycles since the late 80s.

BUT discussion group-iffa ya don wanna discuss, then don't.

The original question was, "Carbon/aero wheels- are they worth it? (Enve 3.4s)"

[Splash]

finally, to chime in on Old Potato's comments; going tubular is a lighter wheel however there is some rolling imbalance due to the stem on most tubulars, a sort of ridge that doesn't exist w/clinchers. those riding tubulars should relate to this, however I do believe overall going tubular is the way to go, especially for racing.

what is this "rolling imbalance due to the stem on most tubulars"?


splash

[oldpotatoe]

what is this "rolling imbalance due to the stem on most tubulars"?


splash

Not on high end ones, installed correctly, pushing hard at the valve, while gluing. No ridge...also as long as the valve hole in the rim isn't too small..seen that once on a Chinese tubular carbon rim.