Name this seat stay / seat lug please ...

[Louis]

A question for you lug fans out there:

Is there a specific name for this method of joining the seat stays to the seat lug? (with the spoon ends brazed to the side of the lug) If so, what is it?

I think this is the coolest looking way to do the seat lug. (Pic lifted from Chris Kvale's web site.)

Thanks
Louis



http://www.velostuf.com/ckcseatlug.jpg

[Bill Bove]

That was normal a few years ago, now it seems that most seat stays are joined directly to the seat tube and a seperate collar is used to tighten the seat post. IMO the very best looking method is the fastback style as on the Csi, almost didn't buy my first Legend Ti because it lacked the fastback seat lug.

[dnovo]

According to THE CUSTOM BICYCLE by Kolin and de la Rosa, (1979) pp. 13-16, that style would be 'semi-wrap'. The book goes on to say which of several classic builders in steel used which form of seatstays. An excellent work, now long out of print and difficult to locate. Dave N. (trial done, we settled on the retrial, got a call from the Seventh Circuit and finished the day reading a 53 page opinion I had been waiting for decision for two years since the agrument, and celebrated by doing a century today in the (finally) decent weather on the Tommasini Carbo Light. Tomorrow may be a mix of rain and snow, and I have a hearing on another fur ball all next week, but a nice day of great riding makes it worthwhile.)

[Louis]

Thanks Dave. I knew someone out there would know.

Bill, I hear what you're saying about fastback stays, but IMO if you are doing lugs, which are kind of elegant, then this style matches well, because it too is elegant. (at least more elegant than fastback, to my eyes)

It's purely a matter of personal taste.

Louis

[rnhood]

I agree that the scooped stay or semi-wrapped style lug is the lug of choice. To me a "fastback" style is somewhat of a comprimise on a lugged bike. Just a matter of opinion though - it's all very subjective.

But that Ron Cooper lug on Cranky's bike (custom gallery) looks awfully good too and I guess it would be classified as a fastback.

[Needs Help]

Originally posted by dnovo
...and I have a hearing on another fur ball all next week...
lol.

[Needs Help]

Originally posted by Bill Bove
IMO the very best looking method is the fastback style as on the Csi, almost didn't buy my first Legend Ti because it lacked the fastback seat lug.

I couldn't agree with you more. In my opinion, the Serotta seat collar is ugly, although it's not something that readily catches my eye. However, when I look at it compared to a CSI, I notice how elegant and classy the CSI's seat cluster looks.

[BigMac]

I do not believe this is considered a "semi-wrap". As pictured, I believe this is referred to as fluted or concave side-mounted stays. A semi-wrap is defined by the eye or top-eye (the end of stay) being flattened and wrapped around lug but not connected as 1-piece with opposite stay top-eye. The Brits were famous for semi-wrap style stays as evidenced in many Mercian's, Hetchins and the like. There is also a "full wrap" style wherein the eyes are brazed together at front of seatlug and hand-filed such as to appear as one continuous tube -- a very classic, unique look not to mention highly laborious.

There are many variations on the side-mounted eye style, popularized by Cinelli in late 30's with their sword-like eye design. Faleiro Masi may or may not have invented the concave eye style, either way he popularized it to point that many refer the the above picture as "Masi style stay attachment". This picture is of the very much Masi inspired style. There are howver variations on this style -- checkout an Eisentraut where Albert favored a longer, narrower and more pointed eye with a shallower concave fill. Kellogg (Spectrum) seems to balance somewhere between the Eisentraut and Masi designs. I recall that Sachs employs a hybrid Cinelli/Masi shape, less sword-like than Cinelli but lacks the concave section of Masi, preferring a perhaps cleaner, less artfull flat tapered eye.

I have read where some claim that the fastback style as employed on CSI delivers a harsher ride. This is pure nonsense, imo. I seriously doubt there is any strength or engineering advantage to any method, the attachment method is likely more an expression of the artisan's (builder) taste or whim. With introduction of investment cast lugs and fittings, seatstay attachment has become less of an artform in some cases. Several seatlugs are available with plug-in fittings, usually in some fastback variation. The late Serotta Atlanta's used this type of lug that at least to my conservative aging eye appears bulky, combersome and less artistic. Top eyes are available in plug-in form to facilitate easier, more consistent tapering and shaping as well as easing timing and labor constraints. I suspect most if not all steel builders use some form of cast top eye which has led to demise of the now very rare semi and full-wrap style stays. The Masi-style and Sachs-style stays have become the defacto standard from what I have seen on market recently.

I personally love the CSI fastback style, very gracefull and fairly unique. I suspect this is a cast-in design only the lug fitting is male as opposed to more common female socket which allows stay to seamlessly attach to lug and be integrated with binder assembly. Really a beautiful design. I'd be curious if they employ this design in their large frames. In most cases, bigger frames require fatter stays for added torsional stiffness which in turn are too large for fastback attachment, necessitating the side attachment. With Serotta's tapered hourglass "Mae West" stays I wonder if they acheive sufficient torsional stiffness to allow smaller diameter ends allowing fastback attachment in even the big frames. Anyone with a >64cm CSI designed for >225lb rider? If so, how's the torsional stiffness?

As much as I have enjoyed my Masi's over the years, my eye favors the fullwrap stay design as the pinnacle of artistic design followed by the sexy CSI fastback, then the Masi. The semi-wrap looks unfinished, like the builder mistakenly cut the stays too short while the flat Sachs taper looks too simple and billboard-like -- you'll note many builders use this design to place a logo which detracts from framelines. Just my opinion and worth exactly what it cost you -- perhaps even less if you suffered through this long-winded dissertation.

Ride on!

[davids]

...this seems like a nice opportunity to share the prettiest seat lug I've ever seen, on a Peter Mooney bike. Here's three pics:

http://www.peter-mooney.com/images/gallery/99_lg.jpg http://www.peter-mooney.com/images/gallery/91_lg.jpg http://www.peter-mooney.com/images/gallery/118_lg.jpg

I love the combination of smoothly brazed seatstays and lugged top- and seattubes. Gorgeous!

[BigMac]

David:

That is a prime example of the more common fastback design. Essentially the seatstays are mitered and filet brazed to the rear of seatlug below the binder. Waterford commonly uses this attachment design as well as many other small production builders. If you look at a CSi, you'll note the stays attach higher and are actually intergrated into binder assembly. Either way, I agree this image is a wonderfully clean and simple design method.

Ride on!

[Climb01742]

david s--is one of the bikes pictured yours? all are sweet. peter is a unique guy. very nice and follows his own drummer. he built me a fixed gear a number of years ago. a wonderful bike. thanks for sharing photos.

[davids]

Originally posted by Climb01742
david s--is one of the bikes pictured yours? all are sweet. peter is a unique guy. very nice and follows his own drummer. he built me a fixed gear a number of years ago. a wonderful bike. thanks for sharing photos.
No, unfortunately! I was just getting prepared to go down the "custom road" last spring when I came across a screaming good deal on a Steel Axiom frame (on Ebay.) Wheelworks did the fine-tuning work for my fit, and built it up for me. From a distance (a long distance!) it looks something like the silver Mooney in the photo...

I had spent a long day at Wheelworks, looking at Mooneys, IFs, Serottas, Sevens, etc. where I saw one of Mr. Mooney's frames made with this lug. It was a creamy off-white, and just might have fit me... I'm not at all doctrinaire when it comes to lugs (I had a mid-80s Pinarello long enough to see lugs and think "Old!"), but this made an impression.

Wheelworks is always a great place to indulge in bike lust. I spent an hour or so there on Saturday. This time, two highlights were a Legend trackbike, and an IF Ti Crown Jewel with carbon seatstays. IF bikes are almost always great lookers. This was was jaw-droppingly beautiful - Creamy white paint and green-tinted carbon (front and back.) Both of these bikes were tucked away near the fitting area in the basement. Very curious...

Do you still have your Mooney?

[Climb01742]

david s--that IF crown jewel is what got me to order one of my own. wasn't it amazing? IF did it for clint, the owner of belmont.

sadly, i don't have my mooney any longer. a long dumb tale of good intentions gone wrong.

[davids]

Climb,

It reminded me of Matt Bracken's bike, with the new (and abandoned?) IF decals. I saw it at the Boston Bike Show last spring - Another stunning pearl white bike!

I strongly suspect that my next bike is going to be either a creamy pearl white, or a creamy baby blue... Mmmm, creamy....

[Climb01742]

david--mine will be pearl orange. i wanted something loud. if pearl orange ain't loud, what on earth is? ;)

[Climb01742]

ps: dave, i was told that matt was gently trying to get IF to update their logo. or at least offer options. their classic logo is kinda ugly, IMO.