$1,700 and that's what you get?

[Gsinill]

Made a quick "lower back relief" stop on my ride today at one of my LBS and saw this Kona in the window.
I know aluminum is not easy to work with but my wife's $300 Fuji grocery hauler looks like a high-end piece of art compared to this.
They either have very low quality standards which would surprise me or their QC guy was on drugs!

[cromo900]

I'm no welder. What's wrong with it? That the seat stay weld cuts through the TT weld? Seriously wondering as I'm debating between this (which I assume is a '14 Jake the Snake) and a Raleigh RX2.0. Thanks!

[avalonracing]

With this particular bike looks like it was put together with Bondo™ in the parking lot of the local Pep Boys®.

[gemship]

that is a pretty clumsy looking weld but still at that price point I don't see the weld quality really improving. It's hit or miss. What I do see is a bike with possibly better geometry for the task at hand and better components.

[Gsinill]

I'm no welder. What's wrong with it? That the seat stay weld cuts through the TT weld? Seriously wondering as I'm debating between this (which I assume is a '14 Jake the Snake) and a Raleigh RX2.0. Thanks!

I am no welder either and never welded aluminum, but attached is a picture of my wife's Fuji Crosstown. That's how a welding joint should look like to me.
It might not be really visible in my pic of the Kona JTS since I took it through the window, but avalonracing's comparison describes pretty well how it looks.

[avalonracing]

Are you hanging a rear bike rack on a classic old Mercedes?

[Gsinill]

Are you hanging a rear bike rack on a classic old Mercedes?

Nope, it's usually on a hoist in the garage but I was out last week and "da boss" asked me to take it down so she can ride it while I am gone and the only spot where it's not in the way is behind my "Brown Baby" which needs a brake job so it's kind of stationary at the moment ;)

[malcolm]

Is that Fuji steel? That does not look like an aluminum weld to me. Looking at it closer and where the puddles blend with the tube I think it is aluminum and those are just some really nice weld puddles.

[Gsinill]

Is that Fuji steel? That does not look like an aluminum weld to me. Looking at it closer and where the puddles blend with the tube I think it is aluminum and those are just some really nice weld puddles.

Yep, it is aluminum; I had a Fuji Cross before, same nice welds.

[Steve in SLO]

I think it's all aesthetics. The welds shouldn't 'feel' different when you're riding. I have a Rock Lobster AL CX team bike with blobby welds like that and it rides beautifully.

[Louis]

I think it's all aesthetics. The welds shouldn't 'feel' different when you're riding.

Perhaps, but if they can't be bothered to give you a decent-looking weld bead, you have to wonder what else they didn't bother to do right.

[pdmtong]

More money is needed to get the stack of dimes

That puddle is ugly but it won't break

[Gsinill]

perhaps, but if they can't be bothered to give you a decent-looking weld bead, you have to wonder what else they didn't bother to do right.

+1

[Steve in SLO]

Perhaps, but if they can't be bothered to give you a decent-looking weld bead, you have to wonder what else they didn't bother to do right.

I refer this to Paul Sadoff...take it up with him.

[bobswire]

Those welds look like wadded up bubble gum,when I was young and all the kids chewed bubble gum they stuck it under their seats in school, theaters or buses when all the sweet was out of the gum.

[FlashUNC]

I refer this to Paul Sadoff...take it up with him.

A number of folks who know far more about welding tubes together than I do -- and Paul is one of them -- prefer the uglier weld in these kinds of cases to the clean, but sometimes improperly done, pretty one.

[Louis]

A number of folks who know far more about welding tubes together than I do -- and Paul is one of them -- prefer the uglier weld in these kinds of cases to the clean, but sometimes improperly done, pretty one.

I don't think anyone here likes a structurally deficient weld, whether it's ugly or clean, so saying someone out there likes the ugly one over the clean but bad weld doesn't really get you very far, IMO.

[grawk]

Except that the people judging pretty vs ugly maybe aren't in a position to judge the quality of the weld

[Louis]

Since when are "rows of pennies" welds inherently bad structurally?

There can good pretty or ugly welds, and there can be bad pretty or ugly welds, unless someone is going to argue that they can prove that welds that look like xxxx tend to have strength yyyy. If that's the case, then let's hear it.

[rice rocket]

Better large puddles than cracked puddles.

[CunegoFan]

Who knew you could make aluminum frames with carelessly applied J-B Weld after it has thickened to a putty-like consistency?

[FlashUNC]

Except that the people judging pretty vs ugly maybe aren't in a position to judge the quality of the weld

Since when are "rows of pennies" welds inherently bad structurally?

There can good pretty or ugly welds, and there can be bad pretty or ugly welds, unless someone is going to argue that they can prove that welds that look like xxxx tend to have strength yyyy. If that's the case, then let's hear it.

Grawk more eloquently delivered my point.

Assuming the model the OP posted is a Kona Jake the Snake, the welds he posted look identical to the welds in the model presented on their website.

This ain't a QC issue. Its how these bikes -- assuming my model guess is right -- are supposed to look if Kona is showing it off to the world in hi-res on their site. I'd definitely file this under the "ugly but works" category.

I'm as much an aesthetic whore as the next guy, but who cares about how the welds look on a cross bike meant to be ridden hard and put away wet?

[Louis]

I'm as much an aesthetic whore as the next guy, but who cares about how the welds look on a cross bike meant to be ridden hard and put away wet?

I hear you, but given the choice between a clean weld and messy weld, I'll take the clean weld any day, whether it's a road bike, a cross bike, or an MTB.

Others may prefer something different.

[FlashUNC]

Totally agree, but I've seen far worse stuff.

Isn't close to the crack pipe and a crayon welds I've seen on some generic frames on eBay.

[fogrider]

I refer this to Paul Sadoff...take it up with him.

I can't speak for Paul but I do have two of his bikes (http://rocklobstershop.blogspot.com/)...but his welds don't look like that.

[soulspinner]

Totally agree, but I've seen far worse stuff.

Isn't close to the crack pipe and a crayon welds I've seen on some generic frames on eBay.

:p

[54ny77]

judging quality of welds based on aesthetic appearance must mean some of you have x-ray eyes. fascinating! you know you could make great money with that skill?

:bike:

[gemship]

judging quality of welds based on aesthetic appearance must mean some of you have x-ray eyes. fascinating! you know you could make great money with that skill?

:bike:

No matter how nice Aluminum welds may look most of the purist (steel lovers) will point out the welds as a case in point to dislike aluminum frames. Among other reasons however this is an old excuse.

[firerescuefin]

I refer this to Paul Sadoff...take it up with him.

I can't speak for Paul but I do have two of his bikes (http://rocklobstershop.blogspot.com/)...but his welds don't look like that.

I'd order a Rock Lobster tomorrow, but the pictures in the article below side with Steve (and I believe is what he was referring to).

Back to the OP...Those welds...on that bike...don't bother me.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=94553

[Gsinill]

Except that the people judging pretty vs ugly maybe aren't in a position to judge the quality of the weld

So what you are saying is that an aluminum weld has to be ugly in order to be structurally sound. In this case I apologize to the QC folks at Kona and for safety reasons would like to discourage anyone from buying a Fuji bike with aluminum frame.

[biker72]

Granted the weld looks crappy but is structurally sound.

[mike p]

I sense sarcasm :-)....I weld for a living but rarely weld AL. 80% of what I weld is structural steel or pipe, so take what I say with a grain of salt. While a sloppy looking weld can be structurally sound a sign of a true master is a nice looking bead regardless of material. The pic of your Fuji is a little misleading as that particular weld is the easiest to make perfect. Your basically filling a void. Show us the seat tube weld on the Fuji. It may look nicer than the kona but it won't look like the weld you took a pic of.

My take is the Kona weld is it's sloppy but functional. Also as regards to Rock Lobster welds, I've seen quite a few of Paul's bikes and all of them look great. Some people think Gaulzetti's welds look bad. I think they look perfect. Some people (not you Gsinill) just don't understand your not going to get the same small beautiful tigged welds from AL that you do from steel or Ti.

Mike

So what you are saying is that an aluminum weld has to be ugly in order to be structurally sound. In this case I apologize to the QC folks at Kona and for safety reasons would like to discourage anyone from buying a Fuji bike with aluminum frame.

[Gsinill]

...Show us the seat tube weld on the Fuji. It may look nicer than the kona but it won't look like the weld you took a pic of.

Comes pretty darn close IMHO.

[mike p]

I guess we have to agree to disagree. It looks fine and better than the Kona but not near as nice to the first Fuji pic to me. Fuji's are a great value.
Was hoping the first pic would pop up here for comparison!

Mike

I am no welder either and never welded aluminum, but attached is a picture of my wife's Fuji Crosstown. That's how a welding joint should look like to me.
It might not be really visible in my pic of the Kona JTS since I took it through the window, but avalonracing's comparison describes pretty well how it looks.

[Steve in SLO]

I'd order a Rock Lobster tomorrow, but the pictures in the article below side with Steve (and I believe is what he was referring to).

Back to the OP...Those welds...on that bike...don't bother me.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=94553

Yep. Those seatstay welds are what some of mine look like.

[Steve in SLO]

Maybe we can agree on this?

Pretty, structurally sound > Ugly,structurally sound > Pretty, structurally unsound > Ugly, structurally unsound

Oh, and this:
Rock Lobster = cool

:beer:

[zank]

I would say


Pretty, structurally sound > Ugly,structurally sound > (Pretty, structurally unsound = Ugly, structurally unsound)

[grawk]

So what you are saying is that an aluminum weld has to be ugly in order to be structurally sound. In this case I apologize to the QC folks at Kona and for safety reasons would like to discourage anyone from buying a Fuji bike with aluminum frame.

No, I was saying
Except that the people judging pretty vs ugly maybe aren't in a position to judge the quality of the weld

What is being called an ugly weld (which looks almost exactly like the weld on my $2500 caad9 optimo 1, btw) is probably a pretty good weld, and comparing welds on painted parts with bikes made from different materials is a pointless exercise at best.

[cromo900]

I wonder if they aren't hitting that with a dynafile? Seems they are at least getting after the head tube junctions with some sort of grinder. You can see the front end of the bike is quite smooth: http://www.thebikelist.co.uk/images/models/Kona/2014/jake-the-snake/Main.jpg

[gemship]

I wonder if they aren't hitting that with a dynafile? Seems they are at least getting after the head tube junctions with some sort of grinder. You can see the front end of the bike is quite smooth: http://www.thebikelist.co.uk/images/models/Kona/2014/jake-the-snake/Main.jpg

Great observation!

[Gsinill]

A lot of opinions and thoughts...

That's how I would sum it up:


Everybody seems to agree that an aluminum weld doesn't need to be ugly to be structurally sound
A $400 bike can have decent looking and structurally sound aluminum welds
Given the profit margin on a $400 bike, it's obvious that it can't be too much effort to deliver on quality and aesthetics
For some it's OK to pay $2,500 for a bike with "not so decent looking" welds as long as they are structurally sound

[grawk]

We disagree about what makes a decent weld, as I think the welds on my caad 9 are more than decent.

[pbarry]

What you see on the outside is only half of the equation. Good penetration in the parent metal is just as important as the bead on the exterior. With tig welding, the torch is used to heat the tubes at the miters to a level that the filler rod melts into the small molten puddle created by the torch. As the torch is moved, and the amperage/heat controlled by a foot pedal, filler rod is added to fill the gap between the two pieces and so none of the parent metal is burned away.

There are some "perfect" small welds out there that are undercut--if you look closely, there's a small "dished" area between the edge of the weld, and the tube. That's where not enough rod was added, and some of the tubing wall was lost. Seen on Ti and steel frames more often, (but hidden under paint with steel). Undercutting will probably never lead to a failure, but those welds aren't all that.

I haven't welded AL, but bigger welds are not a bad thing structurally as long as they have good penetration. The Kona welds look like they were done quickly; a bit too much filler rod, and maybe not quite enough heat, but fine all the same. [These are bikes, not jet engines.]The Fuji shallow angle weld is pretty, but there may be some undercut on the upper left. Cannondale and Klein built bikes for years with ugly welds that were finished smooth. ;)

[Gsinill]

We disagree about what makes a decent weld, as I think the welds on my caad 9 are more than decent.

Sorry, my bad, this should have read "not so decent looking" since I didn't want to use ugly anymore...

[grawk]

Or we could say some people prefer machine made bikes, and some people appreciate hand made. If robotic precision is important, then you're in luck, because there are a lot more bikes made by machine than by hand.