Powertap advice please

[dd74]

Rode today with a triathlete who suggested I look into a Powertap. Problem is, I don't understand what I need as to what I already have in re. to a Powertap system.

1) First off, I see that Powertap has wheelset options, one of which are Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers. I have Zipp 202 Firecrest tubulars, so my question is, can I just buy a hub instead of a wheel set, and swap out the current hub for a Powertap?

2) I have a Garmin 800 computer, so can I use it for my readings instead of buying a Joule computer? Actually, can the Powertap ANT system work with my iPhone 5? That would be ideal as I now use Strava on my iPhone more than I use my Garmin 800.

Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! :banana:

[false_Aest]

1) First off, I see that Powertap has wheelset options, one of which are Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers. I have Zipp 202 Firecrest tubulars, so my question is, can I just buy a hub instead of a wheel set, and swap out the current hub for a Powertap?


Yes. You'll need new spokes, nips, etc. But why? While the newer PT hubs aren't that heavy, they're still heavy. You're taking a nice light wheelset and making it heavier. If you're gonna train on em, build a wheel for training.


2) I have a Garmin 800 computer, so can I use it for my readings instead of buying a Joule computer? Actually, can the Powertap ANT system work with my iPhone 5? That would be ideal as I now use Strava on my iPhone more than I use my Garmin 800.


PT ANT+ should work with iphone and definitely will work with Edge 800. You don't need the Joule. I like how it runs on a 800. Look into Golden Cheetah as a training program.



Why do you need/want a PM? You racing?

Hate to say it but one can get similar results riding a trainer if you get a speed/power chart for it. e.g. 15mph = 175 watts; 21mph = 273 watts; 30mph = 450 watts, etc.

[dd74]

Yes. You'll need new spokes, nips, etc. But why? While the newer PT hubs aren't that heavy, they're still heavy. You're taking a nice light wheelset and making it heavier. If you're gonna train on em, build a wheel for training.



PT ANT+ should work with iphone and definitely will work with Edge 800. You don't need the Joule. I like how it runs on a 800. Look into Golden Cheetah as a training program.



Why do you need/want a PM? You racing?

Hate to say it but one can get similar results riding a trainer if you get a speed/power chart for it. e.g. 15mph = 175 watts; 21mph = 273 watts; 30mph = 450 watts, etc.
No, not racing. Just curious, really. As many people have told me PT is great, while others tell me to save my $$$.

As for trainers, what do you recommend that will yield the speed/wattage information you mention?

[kramnnim]

There are other types of power meters...you can get a used Quarq for under $1k.

Do you have your iPhone mounted so that you can see it while riding?

[dd74]

There are other types of power meters...you can get a used Quarq for under $1k.
Thanks, I'll look into that.

Do you have your iPhone mounted so that you can see it while riding?
No, and actually, I'm hesitant to do that in case of...er...potential mishaps of any sort.

[rnhood]

The only advantage of power is that one can be benchmarked against others. Its a reference point by which one can be compared to others for comparative purposes. But from a pure training perspective, heart rate is every bit as good, and arguably better, than training with power. I have used both techniques, and I will stick with HR.

It cost about $200 to have your VO2 and FTP measured in a lab. This will give you VO2, threshold power and HR. My recommendation is to spend the money on this and you will have your numbers, then use HR has your training tool.

Having said this, there is nothing wrong with using power and its the modern way. But I just would not butcher those nice 202's by putting a heavy hub in there. The rear wheel will lose some of its "life" and "agile" feel.

[BCS]

The only advantage of power is that one can be benchmarked against others. Its a reference point by which one can be compared to others for comparative purposes. But from a pure training perspective, heart rate is every bit as good, and arguably better, than training with power. I have used both techniques, and I will stick with HR.

This statement is really not accurate at all. HR is a poorman's surrogate for power as it will vary with temperature, amount of sleep, illness, etc. If you are overtrained, HR may be high with crappy power output. Power is power. No (good) coach would argue that HR is better than training with a power meter even if you know your threshold HR. HR only is acceptable if you want to save some cash but for semi-serious training, make the investment


Also, there is no way to track improvement in FTP unless you get serial blood testing. You would spend more at the lab than a power tap in a short time

[T.J.]

To each their own but I totally disagree



The only advantage of power is that one can be benchmarked against others. Its a reference point by which one can be compared to others for comparative purposes. But from a pure training perspective, heart rate is every bit as good, and arguably better, than training with power. I have used both techniques, and I will stick with HR.

It cost about $200 to have your VO2 and FTP measured in a lab. This will give you VO2, threshold power and HR. My recommendation is to spend the money on this and you will have your numbers, then use HR has your training tool.

Having said this, there is nothing wrong with using power and its the modern way. But I just would not butcher those nice 202's by putting a heavy hub in there. The rear wheel will lose some of its "life" and "agile" feel.

[kramnnim]

No, and actually, I'm hesitant to do that in case of...er...potential mishaps of any sort.

You'll want to use your 800 with your power meter, then, so you can see the data while riding, not just after the ride. (You can upload the data from the 800 to Strava)

[dd74]

Just looked at SRM and iBike. SRM is cool but wholly Moses, $4K! :eek:

I guess with all things considered with Powertap (wheel set, hub), it evens out...somewhat.

iBike looks a little hokey. Their computer looks like an iPod, IMO.

[firerescuefin]

The only advantage of power is that one can be benchmarked against others. Its a reference point by which one can be compared to others for comparative purposes. But from a pure training perspective, heart rate is every bit as good, and arguably better, than training with power.

This entire statement is false. You will not find a sports physiologist or coach that would agree with a single statement in it. Nor as someone who has trained with power and heart rate can I agree with any of it. At best, heart rate is a lagging
Indicator, that can be influenced by a myriad of things.

Sorry for being so direct, but DD, don't go by this statement. Pick up "Training With A Power Meter" or "The Power Meter Handbook". You'll get a good idea if its for you.

[HugoBear]

I have done the powertap thing twice. The first time I had a wired one(mavic open pro wheel) and did not have a specific training plan. It essentially turned into a glorified cycle computer. Last year, I decided that the bike was my significant weakness for triathlon. I got a new set of powertap wheels and hired a coach. Best thing I ever did. Went from a below average triathlon cyclist to top 10% with only a few months of following a training plan to a tee.
I have used a Little Yellow Computer, a Joule and a Garmin 500. The Garmin 500 is awesome. Most of the time, I use Garmin Connect and it is fine. My coach wanted me to subscribe to training peaks but this was more for his convenience.
Whether or not to train with power is up to the individual but it is without doubt, when used correctly, the most efficient way to train to improve your cycling, period. Even in LeMond's days, they used SRM's.
One potential problem with training with power and a plan is it can become more like a job, so for the recreational rider, one would want to think about this. Intervals can help with this.

[siegfried08]

This statement is really not accurate at all. HR is a poorman's surrogate for power as it will vary with temperature, amount of sleep, illness, etc. If you are overtrained, HR may be high with crappy power output. Power is power. No (good) coach would argue that HR is better than training with a power meter even if you know your threshold HR. HR only is acceptable if you want to save some cash but for semi-serious training, make the investment

I'd temper that statement and say any (good) coach would say, "Best of all worlds is HR + PM to triangulate your fitness." There's a reason most pros in the peloton have an HR strap on in addition to their PM.

You also left caffeine off the list as an HR variable. Possibly the most important.

Powertap is great, but will bias your power low due to drivetrain inefficiencies. Not that that matters. iBike isn't great. In addition to the crank PMs (Quarq, SRM), there's also Stages and Garmin Vector. If you are serious about getting a PM, I *highly* recommend perusing DC Rainmaker (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/). No one is as thorough in their reviews (of anything, but especially PMs and computers) as he is. If you have a question, it's almost undoubtedly answered on his site. If not, email him. He's an incredible resource.

[HugoBear]

Another thing, as you may already know, saris just really lowered their prices on powertap wheels, so if you go this direction, you can get an much better deal than most.

[kramnnim]

You may also consider a Stages left arm if you already have a matching crankset... DC Rainmaker has reviews.

Edit: I'm a couple minutes late...lol.

[HugoBear]

I'd temper that statement and say any (good) coach would say, "Best of all worlds is HR + PM to triangulate your fitness." There's a reason most pros in the peloton have an HR strap on in addition to their PM.

You also left caffeine off the list as an HR variable. Possibly the most important.

Powertap is great, but will bias your power low due to drivetrain inefficiencies. Not that that matters. iBike isn't great. In addition to the crank PMs (Quarq, SRM), there's also Stages and Garmin Vector. If you are serious about getting a PM, I *highly* recommend perusing DC Rainmaker (http://www.dcrainmaker.com/). No one is as thorough in their reviews (of anything, but especially PMs and computers) as he is. If you have a question, it's almost undoubtedly answered on his site. If not, email him. He's an incredible resource.

Great advice about dcrainmaker.

[Louis]

I'm no expert on the cycling aspects of this, but I deal with and analyze data at work all the time, so I'm semi-interested in this sort of question.

Here's my take:

If you're the type who either 1) geeks out on data and enjoys measuring things related to your body and cycling performance, or 2) wants to get more seriously into improving your cycling, then by all means get one. If you want to save a bit, find a used one.

Measuring something is the first step to understanding what's going on so you'd think that I would go for this sort of tool, even though I'm in no way a racer, but as someone mentioned above, I'm afraid it would turn riding into a chore, where everything is to analyzed and dissected. I ride for for fun and because it's good for me, so I've decided against going the big-data route on the bike.

I limit myself to an HRM, a computer on the the bike for speed, cadence, etc, and a Suunto baro altimeter for climbing data. That's more than some, but less than others.

Happy Cycling :)

[false_Aest]

It cost about $200 to have your VO2 and FTP measured in a lab. This will give you VO2, threshold power and HR. My recommendation is to spend the money on this and you will have your numbers, then use HR has your training tool.


FTP:HR varies due to things like dehydration, partying, sex, sandwiches, training, etc.

also FTP *should* increase as one improves while VO2 max would stay about the same due to genetic blahblahblah.

so you can get tested once or twice a year for $200 and in about 1.5 years afford this gen's PT.

[dd74]

I agree with those concerning the FTP/VO2 take; too many variables, particularly with my sordid lifestyle.

I'm liking that SRM. Seems most direct and integrates well with Campy. What I'm really after is just a better idea of my cycling. There can never be too much information. As far as a power meter leading to cycling becoming a chore, I completely agree. That'll be the day I leave the Garmin at home.

[siegfried08]

Edit: I'm a couple minutes late...lol.

Nipped you by 2 minutes. First time I've been faster than someone at anything in quite awhile now...

[krhea]

Rode today with a triathlete who suggested I look into a Powertap. Problem is, I don't understand what I need as to what I already have in re. to a Powertap system.

1) First off, I see that Powertap has wheelset options, one of which are Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers. I have Zipp 202 Firecrest tubulars, so my question is, can I just buy a hub instead of a wheel set, and swap out the current hub for a Powertap?

2) I have a Garmin 800 computer, so can I use it for my readings instead of buying a Joule computer? Actually, can the Powertap ANT system work with my iPhone 5? That would be ideal as I now use Strava on my iPhone more than I use my Garmin 800.

Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! :banana:
Decide what you're really looking for fitness wise BEFORE you spend your hard-earned money on anything. Training with power is amazing, however, just as many riders still train using HR and do just fine. VO2 tests are an excellent benchmark to start the process however, if you can't answer the question, "What am I after" you're bound to waste some money and time possibly on more or even less tech then you need. If you're into finite measures of your training and getting every last single watt you can get then go with power for sure. If, on the other hand you're simply after a better hand on how you're training, if you're improving, what your "comfort zone" is etc then save the bucks and use a HR monitor. Either way, if you're currently "training" blind then adding anything will certainly help and improve your fitness and the realization of where you are and where you want to be.

[dd74]

Decide what you're really looking for fitness wise BEFORE you spend your hard-earned money on anything. Training with power is amazing, however, just as many riders still train using HR and do just fine. VO2 tests are an excellent benchmark to start the process however, if you can't answer the question, "What am I after" you're bound to waste some money and time possibly on more or even less tech then you need. If you're into finite measures of your training and getting every last single watt you can get then go with power for sure. If, on the other hand you're simply after a better hand on how you're training, if you're improving, what your "comfort zone" is etc then save the bucks and use a HR monitor. Either way, if you're currently "training" blind then adding anything will certainly help and improve your fitness and the realization of where you are and where you want to be.
Thanks. I will think it through.

[iPaul]

If your really curious about the workd of power and all its lingo, why not give the PowerCal I try? Thats, what I did. For under a $100 and your 800 you got all you need to be riding with power. Sure it's not as accurate and I'm sure ill get flamed for suggesting, but before I invest that kind of cash, I want to see if its something that fits in to my style of riding. If it doesn't work I got a heart rate strap.
I will say when reviewing my rides it appears to be very accurate at determining what my efforts are from ride to ride.
Good luck

[verticaldoug]

For all the gadgets, triathletes are not really getting any faster. I think you can over complicated training. Power is one such thing.

If you aren't racing, training for a big event, then getting a power meter is like going to Vegas to pay a hooker to tell you how small you are. What's the point...

[fio]

Rode today with a triathlete who suggested I look into a Powertap. Problem is, I don't understand what I need as to what I already have in re. to a Powertap system.

1) First off, I see that Powertap has wheelset options, one of which are Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers. I have Zipp 202 Firecrest tubulars, so my question is, can I just buy a hub instead of a wheel set, and swap out the current hub for a Powertap?

2) I have a Garmin 800 computer, so can I use it for my readings instead of buying a Joule computer? Actually, can the Powertap ANT system work with my iPhone 5? That would be ideal as I now use Strava on my iPhone more than I use my Garmin 800.

Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! :banana:

1) Yes you can swap out the hub, but as another poster said, you'll have to change spokes. You can order hub only from Powertap.com. That said, I think the configurability on wheelbuilder.com is pretty awesome and you can build a pretty sweet wheelset. As far as the weight, the G3 weighs less than your typical Shimano Ultegra rear hub. You are giving up some weight when compared to something like an Alchemy Elf or a DT 240, but if you're using 202 tubulars you've still got a lightweight wheelset.

2) The 800 will work just fine. If you want to use your iPhone, you'll have to get an ANT+ dongle, like the one sold by Wahoo Fitness.

We do have an iPhone app which interfaces with Bluetooth devices, including our upcoming Bluetooth PT and PowerCal. Once that drops, uploading to Strava, TrainingPeaks, Twitter, etc. etc will be totally wireless. Which is pretty cool. The Strava app will work with the Bluetooth stuff as well, so you will have options--and you don't necessarily have to have your iPhone on your handlebars to be recording. You can use your 800 or other CPU as just a display and use the iPhone for recording and data transfer.

As for the PowerCal, I think that's a great idea to get started, but know that it's not going to be as instantaneous and accurate as a standard PowerTap. It'll give you a great estimate of what you're capable of, and it'll give you and idea of what riding with power is like. I use one when riding MTB and it doesn't disappoint.

Also, for those who thinks that it complicates riding...well yes it does. That's kind of the point of riding with power. It adds another dimension to your riding. If you're not training, well you probably won't get much use out of it. But if you genuinely want to get faster, a power meter is the way to go. That said, when I'm recovery riding or even group riding, I put my Joule in my pocket and just ride. I'll record everything but I don't want to be looking at numbers when I'm having fun. That's one good way to get the data but still maintain a sense of "simplicity." If you have any technical questions or want to know more options, please shoot me an email or PM, I'd be happy to help.

Michael Fioretti
PowerTap Tech
mfioretti@powertap.com

[oldpotatoe]

Rode today with a triathlete who suggested I look into a Powertap. Problem is, I don't understand what I need as to what I already have in re. to a Powertap system.

1) First off, I see that Powertap has wheelset options, one of which are Zipp 202 Firecrest clinchers. I have Zipp 202 Firecrest tubulars, so my question is, can I just buy a hub instead of a wheel set, and swap out the current hub for a Powertap?

2) I have a Garmin 800 computer, so can I use it for my readings instead of buying a Joule computer? Actually, can the Powertap ANT system work with my iPhone 5? That would be ideal as I now use Strava on my iPhone more than I use my Garmin 800.

Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! :banana:

Have a metal crankset?

http://www.stagescycling.com/stagespower

[firerescuefin]

I have both the books I mentioned in my post. Let me know if you're interested in taking a look at one and ill drop,it in media mail. Like I said...if they (the books) get you all geek'd out, then getting one might be the next step...If you get sick to your stomach, and think "what a bunch of losers";) ...then maybe not the tool for you.

I've owned a quarq and SRM. If I were buying new today, the Stages looks hard to beat. Haven't read or heard (from 2 friends that are users) a bad thing about em.

[false_Aest]

No, not racing. Just curious, really. As many people have told me PT is great, while others tell me to save my $$$.

As for trainers, what do you recommend that will yield the speed/wattage information you mention?


Any PM is worth while if you use it correctly + stick with it. Otherwise you're wasting your money. If you want to get better/faster and have a plan to get there, do it. If you just want to see how hard you're going on a certain section, climb, etc, use PRE or a HRM.


Trainers: I use a Kurt. They provide a power chart AND you can purchase a small computer ($70-$150 IIRC depending on which one you get) that will calculate it for you. I did 2x20s and tabita intervals on it because I couldn't afford a PM at the time. I think my results were awesome (dropped 3 minutes off of an uphill TT from Jan - March).

If your really curious about the world of power and all its lingo, why not give the PowerCal I try? Thats, what I did . . . Sure it's not as accurate and I'm sure ill get flamed for suggesting, but before I invest that kind of cash, I want to see if its something that fits in to my style of riding. If it doesn't work I got a heart rate strap.
I will say when reviewing my rides it appears to be very accurate at determining what my efforts are from ride to ride.
Good luck

any tool, used correctly is better than no tool.
any tool, used incorrectly is worse than no tool.


the problem with PowerCal is the repeatability factor -- too many variables in the body to rely on it. But, this is only for those who are doing power by the book. I think for the newb it is a good start. If you get into it though, you'll see the importance of upgrading to power.

[dd74]

Have a metal crankset?

http://www.stagescycling.com/stagespower
No compatibility with Campy cranks as far as I can see.

[dd74]

I have both the books I mentioned in my post. Let me know if you're interested in taking a look at one and ill drop,it in media mail. Like I said...if they (the books) get you all geek'd out, then getting one might be the next step...If you get sick to your stomach, and think "what a bunch of losers";) ...then maybe not the tool for you.

I've owned a quarq and SRM. If I were buying new today, the Stages looks hard to beat. Haven't read or heard (from 2 friends that are users) a bad thing about em.
Yes, I'm interested in the books, and thanks for the offer. Can you PM me with whatever you need from me as far as email address, etc.

Thanks.

[Lionel]

No compatibility with Campy cranks as far as I can see.

Yep. With Campy you have to go SRM or one of the new pedal based PM like the garmin vector.

I had a powertap but did not really like the fact that you have to use that one rear wheel all the time. That and this device basically confirmed that I suck :) Sold it.

[kramnnim]

I'm using a Quarq with Shimano rings with 11sp Campy with no issues. Well, other than the ugly SRAM logo.

[oldpotatoe]

No compatibility with Campy cranks as far as I can see.

They are working with Campagnolo NA/ITL for the Athena crank..not here yet tho.

BUT 10s is 10s and 11s is 11s. I think with a Campagnolo drivetrain, i would rather have a shimano crank/Stages than a Powertap hub. Even with the lower price of Powertap. Powertap, as a measuring device, maybe a A-/B+, as a hub, C-/D+

[ultraman6970]

Interesting thread :) Seen PT units in non racers here in the area and still can't understand a reason to buy them but maybe just because they could do it :D or maybe because somebody told them that was good... :D

Garmin I believe have those new pedal power meter units too and are cheaper and easier to deal with them than with a power meter or a quark crankset.

Cheers :D

[firerescuefin]

Garmin I believe have those new pedal power meter units too and are cheaper and easier to deal with them than with a power meter or a quark crankset.

The Cheaper part is false...and regarding the "easier to deal with"...not sure where that's coming from as I have only seen a few write ups, and no real world feedback. I can change out a modern crankset in about 2 minutes (or move a crank over from one bike to another...not optimal, just sayin)

I would not be the one raising my hand to spend 2 grand and be an early adopter of a system that has been 6 months away for about 4 years now...and forces you into a particular pedal.

Quarqs are bulletproof and well supported by SRAM.

[fuzzalow]

SRM wired units are reasonably inexpensive on the pre-owned market and are reliable. SRM have been the gold standard in PM for quite some time and it is possible to get setup with one at the same cost as a new PM from another maker. FYI.

Going "vintage" with the SRM is not hassle-free however. The old software only runs in Windows, it is necessary to know how to solder a new battery into the powercrank and powerdisplay every few years and spare parts might become an issue.

As a Campy only user, my Peg Marcelo got drafted back into SRM duty running square taper bottom bracket. Older SRM Pro unit from 10-speed days on the Marcelo which runs 11-speed.

[dd74]

They are working with Campagnolo NA/ITL for the Athena crank..not here yet tho.

BUT 10s is 10s and 11s is 11s. I think with a Campagnolo drivetrain, i would rather have a shimano crank/Stages than a Powertap hub. Even with the lower price of Powertap. Powertap, as a measuring device, maybe a A-/B+, as a hub, C-/D+
Yeah, but will a Shimano Dura Ace crank w/ Stages work w/ Campy EPS, or do you suggest waiting out the Campy Athena crank w/ Stages?