Buyer beware: Ligero/ Troy

[ajz07]

I apologize if this post is in the wrong place/ inappropriate, but I am extremely frustrated.

I am sure that most of you know of Ligero Wheels and that it is run by Troy Watson. As it turns out he is roughly my size and was selling one of his frames. He posted it on this forum and I saw it. While I wasn't in the market, I really liked the look of it and decided to treat myself. Due to an illness in my family it has been an incredibly tough time recently and I wanted something to distract myself and give me a bit of happiness in an otherwise dark time. Figured splurging on a f/f/hs and building it up would be fun.

Quick PM's back and forth, good e-mail communication, and talked to Troy on the phone. Seemed like a nice guy. Got everything straightened out and he even was going to get me a set of EE brakes at wholesale (I was in heaven). Came time to pay, and he asked for PP gift. I asked to split PP fee's and he agreed. I am unfortunately extremely glad I did that.

Shortly thereafter Troy dropped off the face of the earth. I know other threads on multiple forums have detailed this behavior before. But I figured it was in relation to building wheels and how hard could it be to ship a f/f/h. Apparently it is impossible. It has now been over a month and still no shipment/ information on any shipment (i.e. tracking info). After multiple e-mails and phone calls, Troy finally got back to me. He said he was out of town, but that he would have someone from his office contact me with the shipping information. I never heard from anyone. Two ignored e-mails later I have now been forced to take out a paypal dispute as I am seriously concerned that nothing will ever be shipped and don't feel like being out several thousand dollars. It is nothing I have ever had to do/ done before and am very disappointed that I am being forced into it (if I waited too much longer it will be over 45 days and I will have no reciprocity). I am sad and frustrated for several reasons. 1. This turned what was supposed to be a pleasant distraction for me into just more irritation and annoyance that I really do not need at this time (I am writing this while sitting bedside in a chemo infusion unit). 2. I have always had exceedingly pleasant interactions with everyone on this forum whether it be classifieds or advice in the general section. This colored it and has potentially made me distrustful of sellers...sad.

I know of Troy's reputation for tardiness. However, lack of communication and delayed shipping of a frame for over a month (something he does not have to build, mearly take somewhere and ship), is really really poor behavior. Perhaps there is some justification. I have no idea, he hasn't bothered to inform me, but has conveniently taken my money and stopped responding. He has my cell phone number, he has my e-mail, it wouldn't be hard to contact me to figure things out...

ugh.

[rice rocket]

Is he still building under his own brand? I thought he abandoned that and is building for Fairwheel so at least someone was managing him.

I'd see if you can get the scoop from Jason @ Fairwheel.

[ajz07]

unfortunately threads from other places have mentioned that he no longer works there:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/need-help-contacting-troy-watson-please-310867.html

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/why-did-ligero-stop-making-his-hubs-309165.html

[malcolm]

an internet search will find days of reading on Troy and it has been discussed here many times. Sorry to read about your dilemma and wish you the best but this seems to be his MO.

[Chris]

You are the last guy to get a pass. I am very sorry for you and your circumstances. Anyone from this point on who gives this guy a dime before product is firmly in hand is just crazy. He has dragged more people through difficulties like this than almost anyone else I have heard about. Here's hoping this turns out okay for you. My best wishes for your loved one.

[bobswire]

What do we have if we don't have our good name? Sorry to read of your dilemma. I'm dropping off a frame at FedEx today even though I haven't been paid yet (check is in the mail) but he's long time member in good standing that I trust.
This is the way it should be.

[ajz07]

Truthfully... I don't know that I deserve a pass. The body of evidence was there. I liked the frame a lot and figured it should be easy to ship (i.e. not subject to the weird delays that he is known for with his wheels). Yes it should have turned out differently, but you can pretty effectively argue I should never have gone down this road.

This post is due to my frustration and to add to the growing body of literature/ evidence on this subject. Perhaps others will think twice, even about potentially simple interactions.

You are the last guy to get a pass. I am very sorry for you and your circumstances. Anyone from this point on who gives this guy a dime before product is firmly in hand is just crazy. He has dragged more people through difficulties like this than almost anyone else I have heard about. Here's hoping this turns out okay for you. My best wishes for your loved one.

[sales guy]

I worked with Troy ages ago at a bike company. I will say, I have heard many many horror stories but I am not going to slam anyone.

I do know he works at Fairwheel. Would contact him there. Or Jason for that matter.

[Jack Brunk]

Zebra's don't change their stripes.

[Joachim]

I worked with Troy ages ago at a bike company. I will say, I have heard many many horror stories but I am not going to slam anyone.

I do know he works at Fairwheel. Would contact him there. Or Jason for that matter.

He doesn't work there anymore.

[jlwdm]

There was a thread on RBR the start of the week from someone who sent in a wheel for repair and could not find Troy.

ajz07, sorry about the problem during difficult times.

What size frame do you ride?
Have you seen any other great frames your size on the forum?

Jeff

[sales guy]

I wonder why he's gone? I know they made a big deal about him joining the team there. Interesting.

Hopefully the OP can get things resolved.

[alessandro]

Truthfully... I don't know that I deserve a pass. The body of evidence was there. I liked the frame a lot and figured it should be easy to ship (i.e. not subject to the weird delays that he is known for with his wheels). Yes it should have turned out differently, but you can pretty effectively argue I should never have gone down this road.

This post is due to my frustration and to add to the growing body of literature/ evidence on this subject. Perhaps others will think twice, even about potentially simple interactions.

Don't blame yourself. You emailed him and talked on the phone. It's not your fault that he has no scruples about other people's money. Stay on the PP dispute--someone has taken money from you and not honored their commitment. Pursue this, get your money back, and move on. Then hopefully soon you can get a frame from a stand-up guy, go for a ride, and forget your troubles for a little while.

[ajz07]

Jeff,

This forum is a hotbed of frames. I ride somewhere between a 59 and a 61 geo depending on the angles/ effective TT. That is almost what makes me even more ruthful. I commit/ pay for one frame and then watch a moots CR, a peg duende and a moots vamoots sl come along in sizes that work. I dont need another frame, it was just supposed to be a pleasant distraction. My bike fund is now tied up in this frame. Once it gets resolved one way or another I will figure out where it is going.

Adam

There was a thread on RBR the start of the week from someone who sent in a wheel for repair and could not find Troy.

ajz07, sorry about the problem during difficult times.

What size frame do you ride?
Have you seen any other great frames your size on the forum?

Jeff

[AngryScientist]

good for you for posting this.

stay on that paypal case. get your money back.

keep the word out there. this guys name should scream buyer beware.

sorry this forum was involved in the scam.

lots of good guys out there though, dont let a sour apple spoil your vision.

also,

to the more important point:

i've been in the same position recently, take care of family first. dont let this guy get to you. its hard, but keep it in perspective, if you have your health, you have everything and anything. i sincerely wish you the best.

[cfox]

why is this clown allowed to post to the classifieds here?

[rwsaunders]

Sorry for your situation, but to paraphrase Jack Brunk, you can't polish a turd. Try the white pages app on your iPad and LinkedIn and see if he's still in the area. If I recall, he's friends with a few wheelbuilders who post here as well. Perhaps some help from them?

[Vientomas]

why is this clown allowed to post to the classifieds here?

Good question. Is not a ban in order?

[Keith A]

Good question. Is not a ban in order?
Just FYI, the moderators are aware of this issue and discussing the actions we need to take to try and prevent this from happening again.

[ajz07]

I appreciate all the support.
Wish there was an easy solution for the forum going forward, but I don't think there is. Mods have a lot more experience then me and probably know a bunch more about structuring things. That being said, this is a pseudo community of like minded people who like exchanging ideas (and bike parts). You stick around if you are interested and leave if you aren't. It is always buyers beware. Why I generally will cover Paypal fees if necessary as I am paranoid (was always hopeful it was an unnecessary paranoia). If the person is really well known in the forum then I will consider gift/ check/ whatever. The feedback section is great, just felt this went beyond that.

Just FYI, the moderators are aware of this issue and discussing the actions we need to take to try and prevent this from happening again.

[Bruce K]

Which is why we left it here.

This does seem to go beyond a "typical" bad transaction.

As Keith said, we are looking into thus carefully.

BK

[malcolm]

Not to try and influence anyone but over the years I've had numerous transaction both buying and selling on this forum and have never had an issue as someone mentioned in the thread I'll often ship before payment if it's someone that has been around a while. This guy has an unequivocal reputation for deceit and taints the entire community.

[Pars]

+1 to what has been said, particularly AngryScientist's post.

I hope you get this resolved/refunded without further trouble, and as has been said, take care of your family.

[mnoble485]

Just so we can all know, what name is he posting under?

Mike

[Peter B]

Ligero

[Frankwurst]

What do we have if we don't have our good name? Sorry to read of your dilemma. I'm dropping off a frame at FedEx today even though I haven't been paid yet (check is in the mail) but he's long time member in good standing that I trust.
This is the way it should be.

Agreed.:beer:

[drinkslinger]

Banhammer time for Ligero!

To the OP- I've had disputes involving paypal and they are VERY good at resolving them, i.e. getting your money back to you. Thankfully you did the transaction as a purchase rather than a gift. Good luck to you and hopefully the personal side works out for the best.

I've purchased a few things on the forum, and have to say without a doubt the folks who post in the classifieds are, in general, pretty stand up folks. Don't let this twatwaffle sour you on the classified section.

[mossman]

Am I reading the OP correctly in that he made a paypal payment as a gift (as Ligero requested)? If so, you've severely diminished your chances of paypal refunding your money. It was a "gift" after all.

[thegunner]

Am I reading the OP correctly in that he made a paypal payment as a gift (as Ligero requested)? If so, you've severely diminished your chances of paypal refunding your money. It was a "gift" after all.

nah it sounded like he covered himself since they split the fees. everything here *should* work out, but it still sucks

[bluesea]

With his long time record, this individual asking for payment as gift does not increase one's confidence in his given intent.

[Shortsocks]

Banhammer time for Ligero!

I've purchased a few things on the forum, and have to say without a doubt the folks who post in the classifieds are, in general, pretty stand up folks. Don't let this twatwaffle sour you on the classified section.

Speak for yourself. I've ripped off 8 people this week alone. PSA: I know someone selling a real mad fiber wheelset for 75 dollars. Please gift it though. :banana:

Some please string up this seller by the balls and stone him empty CO2 canisters until he's bleeding from the ass. :hello:

[ultraman6970]

I got a transaction with the user in question like a year ago and I got my stuff... wonder what problems the guy is into.

[Bruce K]

Let's try and maintain a little class, please

BK

[54ny77]

ShortSocks' approach to handling blatant & profligate offenders shows tremendous restraint & class, in my opinion. I'd use full canisters.

:p

[sales guy]

I was going to recommend full canisters. But ONLY in the 25gram versions! lol

[siegfried08]

With his long time record, this individual asking for payment as gift does not increase one's confidence in his given intent.

I don't even think you need any "record" with regards to asking for a payment gifted. I will promptly end a transaction is the seller requests I gift it, long standing record or not. Now if I'm the seller and the buyer offers to gift, I'll happily accept the free money. #hypocrit

[jds108]

I don't even think you need any "record" with regards to asking for a payment gifted. I will promptly end a transaction is the seller requests I gift it, long standing record or not. Now if I'm the seller and the buyer offers to gift, I'll happily accept the free money. #hypocrit

?

Don't know what the "hypocrit" at the end there is referring to, but I'll just make a mental note to be reluctant to do business with you. At some point there needs to be some trust between two parties. This isn't a challenge to figure out how to screw the next guy.

[Bruce K]

I think it was self-directed

Won't pay with gift but will accept gift payment

I would have been happy if the "I'll take it" guy actually took it!

(My transaction - not this one)

BK

[Peter B]

?

Don't know what the "hypocrit" at the end there is referring to, but I'll just make a mental note to be reluctant to do business with you. At some point there needs to be some trust between two parties. This isn't a challenge to figure out how to screw the next guy.

I think it was intended to be ironic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashtag

[siegfried08]

I think it was self-directed

Won't pay with gift but will accept gift payment

I would have been happy if the "I'll take it" guy actually took it!

(My transaction - not this one)

BK

The jokes that have to be explained are the funniest IMHO. :bike:

[beeatnik]

I would have been happy if the "I'll take it" guy actually took it!

(My transaction - not this one)

BK

It happens; let it go.

[bloody sunday]

So, any updates?

[Aaron O]

If he's selling over state lines, it sound like it might be mail fraud. Call appropriate authorities.

[wooly]

I don't even think you need any "record" with regards to asking for a payment gifted. I will promptly end a transaction is the seller requests I gift it, long standing record or not. Now if I'm the seller and the buyer offers to gift, I'll happily accept the free money. #hypocrit

You may not be doing much "business" with many long time forumites then.

[RacerJRP]

Sucks man, sorry to hear about this. Hoping you get this resolved with receiving the product or your money back.

[jlwdm]

I don't even think you need any "record" with regards to asking for a payment gifted. I will promptly end a transaction is the seller requests I gift it, long standing record or not. Now if I'm the seller and the buyer offers to gift, I'll happily accept the free money. #hypocrit

I was buying a watch on a forum I was fairly new to a few days ago. The Seller (who had extensive history on the forum) said because I was new to the forum, even though I have purchased more expensive watches on other forums, would I do paypal gift. I responded that he was uncomfortable with me, and now I was uncomfortable with him so lets just go our separate ways.

Jeff

[faryab]

Thanks

[bikser]

If you paid with a credit card I'd do a dispute through your company. I found that to be easier and straightforward versus PP.