Serotta Lifetime Warranty on bikes made before 5/3/2012 no longer valid

[likebikes]

Copy Paste from an email:

"Apologies for the delayed response. Serotta has gone through some changes recently and we are in the process of restructuring.

The current ownership of Serotta – which began on May 3, 2012 – has made the difficult decision not to honor the original warranty of bikes delivered before that date which were manufactured under the company's previous ownership. This was not a decision we arrived at easily.

If your bike does for some reason require repair due to manufacturing or materials defect in the future, we would evaluate your bike and determine the extent of the damage. If the frame is beyond repair, we will offer you a new frame at 50% of retail price. If the frame is repairable within a reasonable scope, the repair bill would be your responsibility.

If you would like to send in your frame and fork for evaluation, please write back and I will set up an RA for you and send shipping instructions.


Team Serotta
Serotta Cycles
41 Geyser Road
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
518.584.8100
518.261.4409 fax"

[thirdgenbird]

So the name bearer is gone and they have disconnected themselves from the old product? They just as well toss the Serotta name and use blue or divine.

The website still touts their heritage and lifetime warranty. Seems like a tasteless move.

[KidWok]

:confused:

Doesn't make sense to me. One would speculate that the most likely people to buy a Serotta moving forward are the ones who had one in the past. Now they just went and burned a bunch of bridges with those customers. Good grief...it's like watching a car wreck in slow-motion.

Tai

[Highpowernut]

Wow!!!!!

As a new owner of a Serotta , that was built prior to the date mentioned, I am disappointed.

I purchased my bike in April. It was new old stock , sitting on the wall of the shop for awhile.

I love the bike, checked out the company prior to purchase, realized they weren't in great shape but the optimist in me saw the good things that could be.

I don't know if I'll need the warranty, but I will not support/suggest or even promote a company that won't take care of there products, current, past, or present.

Not a good start for a company trying to reinvent itself.

Wayne


Some people wonder if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan

[rwsaunders]

How to win friends and influence people.

[#campyuserftw]

"This was not a decision we arrived at easily."

Words, a phrase, created by the devil, used by Dracula, repeated by most politicians, some corporate leaders, a few Commander in Chiefs, and brewed for free by waste management centers around the globe.

[JER3]

:confused:

Doesn't make sense to me. One would speculate that the most likely people to buy a Serotta moving forward are the ones who had one in the past. Now they just went and burned a bunch of bridges with those customers. Good grief...it's like watching a car wreck in slow-motion.

Tai

+2 bikes on that !

[dd74]

I heard this announcement Saturday, and intentionally did not post anything about it because it arrived in a confidential email to my LBS. At any rate, we all talked about this issue and agreed this could possibly be the worst move the new owners of Serotta can make. Sure, they'll paint your old whatever frame for $600+ (http://serotta.com/is-your-old-bike-showing-its-age/), but they will no longer honor their own frames?

It's an unbelievably irresponsible business decision on Brian Case's part. The lifetime warranty is one of the reasons I bought a Serotta. What a great way to lose not just legacy customers, but new customers interested in high-end bike frames. I guess the Serotta name as one of the premier American frame builders really means nothing now.

[CaptStash]

Is that even legal? Didn't they buy the corporation's liabilities/obligations when they purchased the company? Is there an attorney in the house here? Seriously, I'm curious about that

CaptStash....

[ntb1001]

Is that even legal? Didn't they buy the corporation's liabilities/obligations when they purchased the company? Is there an attorney in the house here? Seriously, I'm curious about that

CaptStash....

I have a feeling that since it's new ownership....they can do whatever they want
:confused:

[wooly]

Disappointed beyond words.

[Elefantino]

Because we know Brian Case at least looks at this forum, perhaps we'll find out directly from him why the "difficult decision" and "not a decision we arrived at easily" was arrived at.

[JER3]

Given how incredibly well constructed and reliable their bicycles have been over the years I find it really hard to believe they are actually losing that much money on warranty service. I'd wager there is more savings potential in the executive compensation package than there is paying the cost of the fixing "defects in materials and workmanship" on these high end bikes.

[akelman]

I'm genuinely surprised that people seem to be surprised by this. I thought this was very near to S.O.P. when a business changed hands. And given that Serotta is restructuring to go after very different revenue streams, it never occurred to me that they would honor decades worth of warranties. But then again, I'm a pretty cynical dude, I guess.

[Louis]

I can think of three reasons why they would do this:

1) To cut costs, if warranty work is having a massive effect on their current cash flow.

2) They are irrational.

3) They think their future customer base is completely different from their past customer base, and don't really care if they piss off nearly all their past customers, and they think their future customers don't care about this obvious lack of support.

[slidey]

Or maybe its a combination of misuse of warranty (a-la REI lifetime warranty), and the lack of economic sense it makes for a company that size to be able to honour it (the warranty).

Just my stabs in the dark...game on!

I can think of three reasons why they would do this:

1) To cut costs, if warranty work is having a massive effect on their current cash flow.

2) They are irrational.

3) They think their future customer base is completely different from their past customer base, and don't really care if they piss off nearly all their past customers, and they think their future customers don't care about this obvious lack of support.

[54ny77]

"You don't have no warr-an-ty!
You didn't get one!
You didn't get one!
'Cos they under re-org!
They can't afford it!"

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/eddie-murphy-delirious.jpg

[pdmtong]

If the prior frames really did suck, this is a smart move that infers the previous mfg regime sucked, and this is a way to understandably cut future costs.

only problem is, the previous mfg regime is still there!

the damage and inference to reputation is far greater than the warranty costs on the table.

far better to have just said lifetime warranty now limited to xx (15?) years original owner with proof of purchase.

[NickR]

Is that even legal? Didn't they buy the corporation's liabilities/obligations when they purchased the company? Is there an attorney in the house here? Seriously, I'm curious about that

CaptStash....

I'm no lawyer, it depends on the terms of the sale. The perceived advantage was on the buyer. So I would venture that his lawyer negotiated favorable terms for his client.

[Ken Robb]

Wasn't the lifetime warranty just for the original owner? If so, how many original owners keep their bikes over 10 years? It's not that they shouldn't keep them but judging by how many used ones are always available I'd guess Many Serotta buyers have often been seeking the latest and greatest frames rather than riding "old faithful" for 10+ years.

[handsomerob]

In all seriousness, what possible value is left in the name Serotta? I think it is near a net zero gain having new bikes with Serotta on the down tube.

No question there are extremely talented builders in Saratoga and the new owners can go in whatever direction they choose, but the complete bastardization of the brand makes no sense to me at all.

[dd74]

Serotta (the man) honored lifetime warranties for 41 years, so there's really no fiscal excuse for Serotta and its new owners to not do the same.

Example: Moots, who flat out says their frames have a lifetime warranty, and by my guess is about the same size if not larger than Serotta.

[arazate]

I am not a current Serotta owner, hope to be one soon (older frame). Sad, and frustrating to see folks at the helm playing business. Current leadership really needs to buck up and look in the mirror, and decide, are they all in. If not, this lack of character being demonstrated will certainly lead the company into a death spiral.

[Gothard]

I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

[jpw]

the 'new' crash damage scheme required a 50% contribution for a seven year old frame... if i remember correctly.

[jpw]

I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

it's still the same bike, and there was no warranty that came with it.

this is corporate triage, and better that the company survives than dies.

[soulspinner]

Serotta off the radar.

[fuzzalow]

Dandy Don Meredith singin' "Turn out the lights, the party's over..."

[Gothard]

it's still the same bike, and there was no warranty that came with it.

this is corporate triage, and better that the company survives than dies.

My previous experience with damage on a Serotta that I was not the first owner of was stellar, with zero outlay on my part.
Alienate customers (with or without reason), lose business.

[spdcyclist]

Perhaps it's time for the Serotta ad on the forum banner to go... After all that company no longer exists.

As an owner of 2 Serotta's, this move by the new owners has totally turned me away from the brand. I will still love the ride, but, now can only talk about the company that once was.

RIP the real Serotta. :(

[rnhood]

It is baffling that the owners are doing this. Given the advertised quality and price charged for a Serotta, I would expect very few warranty repairs. But there is no doubt the lifetime warranty was a selling point. I'm sorry for those that purchased one and have now lost the warranty, although few would probably ever need to exercise it.

[Black Dog]

I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

Why? If the warranty was only for the original owner you would not have had coverage anyway. Also, if it is a great bike buy it. If you do not like the current version of Serotta do not buy a new one. I can not see the rational you are employing here. :confused:

[merlinmurph]

A few years ago, the new owners of Killington ski area decided not to honor the lifetime passes that were sold to people in the 60's. Lifetime passes were a common way of financing ski areas then. Some of these passes had the condition that they could be sold/transferred once, and I knew a few people that had them. They weren't happy. They considered a lawsuit, but AFAIK, figured that any money tossed towards lawyers would be a waste.

I'm not sure this would alter my decision to buy a used Serotta, but that's just me. If I were lusting over a Legend and found a good one at a good price, I'd still grab it.

Still sucks, though.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph

[Tonger]

Perhaps it's time for the Serotta ad on the forum banner to go... After all that company no longer exists.

As an owner of 2 Serotta's, this move by the new owners has totally turned me away from the brand. I will still love the ride, but, now can only talk about the company that once was.

RIP the real Serotta. :(

SPD,

I completely understand your point. Still, it might be good to leave it there as a reminder of how to conduct one's business with honor.

I honestly don't expect any problems with my frame and still don't regret buying it, but I'll never buy a "Zerotta"...

Tonger

[Gothard]

Why? If the warranty was only for the original owner you would not have had coverage anyway. Also, if it is a great bike buy it. If you do not like the current version of Serotta do not buy a new one. I can not see the rational you are employing here. :confused:

read my second post above. I was fortunate enough to benefit from a warranty exchange even though I was not the original owner of the bicycle.
The "one step beyond" mentality that was displayed at the time blew me away.
Cancelling lifetime warranties? very bad idea.

Not talking about what would happen to any second hand frame I might buy, just expressing my discontent the only way I can: by not buying any more. I am not lacking bicycles, so I can choose to buy what makes me feel good. I am for supporting a company, but not that company in its present iteration.

[dekindy]

I prize my Serotta for it's ride, build quality, reputation and warranty service. I have praised Serotta many times for their amazing warranty service when my Legend's drive side dropout cracked the first year I owned it. Despite informing them that I hit a chuckhole, very hard, they warrantied without question and the frame was turned around in 17 business days including overnight shipping. True it was a naked frame but I cannot imagine anyone else turning it around that fast. Serotta premium was[U] worth it.

The best marketing tool [U]could have been to advertise honoring lifetime warranties on existing frames. Not doing this leads me to believe that maybe Serotta's are not built as well as previously thought. Certainly warranty for Serotta carbon forks would be very expensive given breaking their ties with the carbon facility that they apparently outsourced to.

What is it about Serotta that causes it to shoot itself in the foot every chance it gets? Must be going after an entirely different market. I was not going to let Ben Serotta's departure bother me because of all the craftsmen still there but no warranty has squeezed out of me any fondness for the brand that was left in me.

Let's all send an email to Serotta informing them of our hard decision to consider them dead to us. I am. Here is my copy and paste:

"Upon learning today that Serotta has made the hard decision not to honor warranties on frames manufactured prior to current ownership that began May 3, 2012; I will no longer consider Serotta for future frame purchases. Do not bother replying to this email as you are blocked and unliked on Facebook.

Dwight Kellams"

[DRZRM]

Seems to me that the only Serotta that would interest me now would be a used one that has no ties to the company. Used frames have never carried any warranty. This is unsurprising I guess, but still seems shortsighted. Just one more thing alienating current Serotta owners from the new company. I think a flat 10 years for the original owner would have been more palatable. So is the Crash Protection also abandoned?

I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

[Bruce K]

Just because "The Real Serotta" bicycle company no longer exists for many of us, doesn't mean that the company does not exist.

Companies get sold all the time, some for the better and some for the worse but that doesn't automatically dissolve legal obligations.

If someone wanted/wants to force the issue in the lifetime warranty we might find out if the new owners can or can't legally walk away from that obligation to their original frame owners.

Until then it's all speculation

BK

[William]

Just because "The Real Serotta" bicycle company no longer exists for many of us, doesn't mean that the company does not exist.

Companies get sold all the time, some for the better and some for the worse but that doesn't automatically dissolve legal obligations.

If someone wanted/wants to force the issue in the lifetime warranty we might find out if the new owners can or can't legally walk away from that obligation to their original frame owners.

Until then it's all speculation

BK

True. It could just be a floater being put out there figuring that no one would bother taking it to court and testing it.

Hmmmm, Class action anyone?





I keed, I keed! (joke) ;);)





William

[oldpotatoe]

I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

No warranty anyway.

Ya know Merckx of today is in no way like Merckx was only a few years ago...I have and will continue to seek Merckx steel frames..AND I don't really care if the warranty is there or not. I have a NEW Merckx SLX, last of the 100 steel Merckx built, and ya know if I sell it and somebody rides it and it breaks, there will no warranty for it..particularly since Gita no longer imports Merckx..

So, I wouldn't not buy a Legend, one of the 2 or 3 really great frames, because of this thread.

[rwsaunders]

I didn't need to go to B school to learn that it's more efficient and profitable to retain a loyal customer when compared to the efforts of soliciting new business. 80% of my firm's volume comes from repeat clients, and they aslo serve as brand ambassadors in terms of referrals. Brian Case, I don't know you, but w-f?

[dyerwolf]

Wow. I am at a loss for words at all the missteps the new ownership has made. Voiding warranties is a classy way to burn the remaining bridges with your (formerly) loyal customer base. The manner in which the new owners have navigated the helm is akin to the London Blitz: Incendiary. Slash and burn, baby. :(

[Gothard]

Originally Posted by Gothard
I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.

No warranty anyway.

Ya know Merckx of today is in no way like Merckx was only a few years ago...I have and will continue to seek Merckx steel frames..AND I don't really care if the warranty is there or not. I have a NEW Merckx SLX, last of the 100 steel Merckx built, and ya know if I sell it and somebody rides it and it breaks, there will no warranty for it..particularly since Gita no longer imports Merckx..

So, I wouldn't not buy a Legend, one of the 2 or 3 really great frames, because of this thread.

Again, you did not read my 2nd post above. I was not even eligible for warranty work, yet got better than excellent service from Ben's Serotta. They knew the value of service. The new owners, not so much.

[nicrump]

i'm no lawyer but I'd bet this would fall to most states deceptive practices acts and at least in Texas, they "team S" would loose in court.

[dekindy]

i'm no lawyer but I'd bet this would fall to most states deceptive practices acts and at least in Texas, they "team S" would loose in court.

Who would take them there?

[laupsi]

the fact the Serotta of new will not honor warranties on frames made prior to May 2012 doesn't sting me as much as the idea of actually having a problem w/my frame. purchased a very pricey 2011 Ottrott SE, and beyond having a crash related issue I would be very disappointed if the frame had any issues structurally at all; (ie., fatal to the frame or very costly to repair). my frame is going on its 3rd year and if I'm not mistaken I would pay a fair % of the cost to repair at this stage regardless.

I admit feeling a bit betrayed by this business decision but then again any purchase, especially an expensive one (albeit expensive is relative...), and not considered an "investment" by any means, comes w/more risk. there are many reasons one can muster to shy away from such a purchase. in the end it's an emotional decision and emotional decisions don't tend to offer much in the way of logic. hence all the negative Serotta responses on this thread. more is being made of this decision and emotion is running away w/it...

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . as to why they chose May of last year for the date. Was that when Case originally bought the company?

I can understand not offering any kind of warranty to anyone except the original owner of the frame. I could also understand altering the warranty to 5 years or 10 and grandfathering in current owners. But only backdating it 15 months does seem to be bad PR. I wonder how many warranty repairs the yreally have had annually?

BBD

[daker13]

I'd expect that the perceived value of a generous warranty policy, in the form of a general good will toward the brand, would outweigh the actual time/money they spent on repairs... Obviously a generous warranty policy is going to cost a company more than a stingy one, but I'd be curious to hear if they tried to work out the dollars-and-cents of it.

[weiwentg]

:confused:

Doesn't make sense to me. One would speculate that the most likely people to buy a Serotta moving forward are the ones who had one in the past. Now they just went and burned a bunch of bridges with those customers. Good grief...it's like watching a car wreck in slow-motion.

Tai

Alternatively, the DCG folks could intend to target an entirely different demographic. The people who would buy a Serotta are, I think, a minority of the cycling community. There's a lot of competition in that space from ti, steel and carbon builders. Maybe they want to just go full mass titanium production with the Serotta name.

Of course, in that space, they're competing with Litespeed and a bunch of smaller folks. Are there any other large titanium builders?

[firerescuefin]

Penny wise, Pound foolish

Reality is that these (pre 2012) bikes are very well made...and I would imagine few would need warranty repair (by the originals owner) during their lifetime.

I think Brian and his team have underestimated the affect/backlash this will have on their potential buyers (as mentioned many who may owned or considered owning an S in the past) in that niche of the market.

[laupsi]

Penny wise, Pound foolish



as BBD questioned above, I would like to know the numbers to prove it! one would suspect very little overall was spent repairing frames, but...

[CunegoFan]

How does Serotta do steel repairs now? Is the frame sent to an external craftsman? What is the plan for repairing carbon going forward? Is the reality that in the near future Serotta will be incapable of repairing anything other than titanium, apart from sending the frame to someone else at great cost?

[SamIAm]

i'm no lawyer but I'd bet this would fall to most states deceptive practices acts and at least in Texas, they "team S" would loose in court.

Doubt it, depends largely on how the purchase of "The Great American Bicycle Company" was structured, if assets were purchased instead of stock (most likely), the buyer may have no ongoing warranty obligations. You will have to go to "The Great American Bicycle Company" for warranty work, good luck.

On the other hand a new Serotta at 50% off doesn't sound like a horrible outcome for an older frame. Of course if that frame is steel, one may be out of luck.

[FlashUNC]

Penny wise, Pound foolish

Reality is that these (pre 2012) bikes are very well made...and I would imagine few would need warranty repair (by the originals owner) during their lifetime.

I think Brian and his team have underestimated the affect/backlash this will have on their potential buyers (as mentioned many who may owned or considered owning an S in the past) in that niche of the market.

I remember reading a WSJ story about Hyundai's Repurchase Program they introduced right after the 2008 economic crash. Hyundai offered to take back a new car purchase within a year -- with no blemishes on the buyer's credit or record -- if they lost their job or had some other personal financial calamity. Got huge PR for it at the time it was launched.

The WSJ went back after that first year and found that something on the order of only a couple hundred cars across the entire US were returned.

The goodwill that generated was enormous versus a miniscule cost.

This is like the polar opposite of that.

[pbarry]

. . . as to why they chose May of last year for the date. Was that when Case originally bought the company?

I can understand not offering any kind of warranty to anyone except the original owner of the frame. I could also understand altering the warranty to 5 years or 10 and grandfathering in current owners. But only backdating it 15 months does seem to be bad PR. I wonder how many warranty repairs the yreally have had annually?

BBD

Iirc, Bradway bought the company in May, 2012.

I'd be surprised if they had more than one warranty repair a week.

[sales guy]

I am an industry guy, inside and outside, not a shop owner. I have worked for some very large and well known companies.
The issue is if the owners purchased the debt and liabilities AND worded the contract to include warranties to a certain date or at all. It's all in the contract buyers agreement. They very well might not have bought them. And if that's the case, they don't have to warranty anything. As even if consumers went to court, serotta would win based on their purchase agreement.
NOW, if the owners manuals and paperwork sent with the buyers bike after the purchase date stated there was a lifetime warranty, then they, serotta would be liable. They would say its a mistake and blah blah blah, but they would lose on that.

A hopefully people still have their owners warranty cards.

Now, I don't own a serotta. Always wanted one and had been looking online recently for one. And I am someone who keeps bikes for many many years, over ten sometimes. So I am not worried about a warranty issue. And I have a local guy to do paint and repairs if need be. Always better to have the manufacturer do them but if they won't, there is always someone who will. I guarantee you you will see ads slamming serotta and offering its owners repair services very very soon.

I feel bad for everyone involved. Especially Ben. He is a great guy. This is not the first time the company has had financial issues. In the mid to late 90's they had issues also. And in the 2000's. and in 2012. It happens. It just sucks what happened and how it's being handled.

Sorry, just my opinions and knowledge there.

[MarleyMon]

Maybe this is just a first step towards capitalizing on warranties as a separate product. Standard becomes 2 years, extra $ for 10 year, extra $$$ for lifetime coverage.
But really, everyone here should know that a lifetime warranty cannot extend beyond the lifetime of the company, and this is a different Serotta.

[dekindy]

My LBS has moved on from Serotta and not skipped a beat; guess we should to.

[rice rocket]

Pretty stupid of them to make this a "press release".

If I were them, I'd just start denying warranty claims on the premise that the breakage was not a manufacturer defect and just normal wear and tear...you know...like 95% of other companies do. Changing warranty policy is (a) more valid, (b) less bad PR, (c) more realistic, and (d) probably "more" legal.

IMHO.

[Tin Turtle]

Unfortunate that they chose this path. I really love my Serotta, but there several choices in higher end frames, and I find it hard to imagine others do not offer a significant guarantee of their work.

I have been involved in a lot of private equity deals over the years. Buyouts of weak companies go one of two ways, and this one seems to be going in a direction I am familiar with. Sad to see.

[DRZRM]

Sorry, you are right, I responded to your first quote without reading on. I'd still assume their replacement of a frame you purchased used was the exception to their rule. I'd have assumed the new improved Serotta would not have done that.

Originally Posted by Gothard
I was all in for a used Legend on the 'bay. No longer.



Again, you did not read my 2nd post above. I was not even eligible for warranty work, yet got better than excellent service from Ben's Serotta. They knew the value of service. The new owners, not so much.

[MattTuck]

I'm shocked, shocked I say! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME)



I'm not really shocked :(

[Liberace]

I actually think it's a smart move on their part. Setting an exact date limits their liability exposure to when they were truly responsible for the manufacturing of frames. Honoring anything prior is opening yourself up to a can of worms.

[dd74]

I actually think it's a smart move on their part. Setting an exact date limits their liability exposure to when they were truly responsible for the manufacturing of frames. Honoring anything prior is opening yourself up to a can of worms.
No, it's a poor decision when considering the company's history. I thought I read somewhere that this was to be a "seamless transition" from Ben to current ownership. There's a difference between "seamless" and a chasm.

[jpw]

No, it's a poor decision when considering the company's history. I thought I read somewhere that this was to be a "seamless transition" from Ben to current ownership. There's a difference between "seamless" and a chasm.

it may be a poor decision, but it may also be a necessary decision for the future of the company.

50% is still a decent chunk of cash being saved, and i assume a customer could downgrade to a cheaper model. Meivici SE owners will now have to.

[jpw]

is there a chance that steel will make a return?

[FlashUNC]

is there a chance that steel will make a return?

I think the odds of that happening are the same as me winning Paris-Roubaix in 2014.

[bicycletricycle]

how long till taiwan production?

[#campyuserftw]

The Over Simplification runs Amok

"All things end badly, otherwise they wouldn't end" said Brian in Cocktail. Tom Cruise was right.

The consumer ought to request a leave of absence, a brutal mating ritual is taking place in Saratoga. The drama unfolding, or merely corporate change at Serotta is sad, but true truth.

The USS Serotta is within Amok Time, running amuck. While many frames do not have a lifetime warranty, the latest marketing strategy by Serotta, further distances itself from it's customer base, heritage, and history. Note, it was not done a decision they made lightly...

a·muck (-mk) also a·mok (-mk, -mk)
adv.
1. In a frenzy to do violence or kill: rioters running amuck in the streets.
2. In or into a jumbled or confused state: The plans went amuck.
3. In or into an uncontrolled state or a state of extreme activity: "This jam-packed area of Honolulu has come to stand for tourist development run amok" (Ila Stanger).
adj.
Crazed with murderous frenzy: amuck troops.

[firerescuefin]

I think the odds of that happening are the same as me winning Paris-Roubaix in 2014.

"So you're saying there's a chance."

[jblande]

I wonder if the absence of the California carbon facility played a role. Hard to warranty all the carbon bikes, and ti-carbon, etc when you no longer manufacture the parts...

[avalonracing]

Hmm, this gives me an idea.

A company should start each business day offering lifetime warranties to everyone who buys their product. And then, at the end of the day, put out a release saying they will not longer honor any lifetime warranties issued before that very evening.
They can just repeat this every single day with an automatic email. Ingenious!

[MattTuck]

"So you're saying there's a chance."

This is exactly the quotation I was thinking when I read that too. ahhh, dumb and dumber...

[jpw]

of course this hasn't been officially announced yet. time will tell.

[54ny77]

Health, P&C, and all manner of insurance companies do this every single day.

For them, premium is the gift that keeps on giving.

(pardon the thread drift.....)

Hmm, this gives me an idea.

A company should start each business day offering lifetime warranties to everyone who buys their product. And then, at the end of the day, put out a release saying they will not longer honor any lifetime warranties issued before that very evening.
They can just repeat this every single day with an automatic email. Ingenious!

[alessandro]

I can think of three reasons why they would do this:

1) To cut costs, if warranty work is having a massive effect on their current cash flow.

2) They are irrational.

3) They think their future customer base is completely different from their past customer base, and don't really care if they piss off nearly all their past customers, and they think their future customers don't care about this obvious lack of support.

4) They're bean-counters, and the idea of having some unknown liability out there in the form of legacy frames coming in for warranty repair drives them crazy. Goodwill doesn't really matter to them; it's all about the numbers, or the exposure to warranty costs. To the money guys, nipping that in the bud is pretty basic, and just smart business; I'm surprised it took them this long. Of course, they're money guys, and they likely see this as one of many prudent moves in righting a sinking ship: Throw everything you can overboard until it starts to float by itself. By then, it'll probably be too late for the brand, if it isn't already.

[sales guy]

Canceling the lifetime warranties from a certain point while a ····ty move is smart and correct for dcg. It makes their transition final and shows people they are in control and this is the way it's going to be.

Again, not what I would have done, but it is logical.

As an industry guy, it will be the talk(all of it) for a while. Ben will be at the shows and everyone will stop and chat with him and people will offer him something. It happens all the time. In the end, serotta will go on. Will they do well. Who knows. I will say if I was a bike shop, I would not carry them anymore or I would not search them out for someone. The size cycle, he'll yeah I would buy one. It's great. But I won't be buying a non Ben Serotta.

[Mark McM]

I am an industry guy, inside and outside, not a shop owner. I have worked for some very large and well known companies.
The issue is if the owners purchased the debt and liabilities AND worded the contract to include warranties to a certain date or at all. It's all in the contract buyers agreement. They very well might not have bought them. And if that's the case, they don't have to warranty anything. As even if consumers went to court, serotta would win based on their purchase agreement.

If the new owners of the Serotta company did not include the warrantee liability in their purchase agreement, would the original owners of the Serotta company remain liable for warrantees?

[josephr]

Pretty stupid of them to make this a "press release".

If I were them, I'd just start denying warranty claims on the premise that the breakage was not a manufacturer defect and just normal wear and tear...you know...like 95% of other companies do. Changing warranty policy is (a) more valid, (b) less bad PR, (c) more realistic, and (d) probably "more" legal.

IMHO.

a la Trek?

[Skrawny]

Yet another example of how corporate douchebaggery has taken over Serotta. I have two "Original Serottas" (Legend TI, Ottrott SE) that I am immensely happy with, but they will be my last two.

-s

[David Kirk]

I think the odds of that happening are the same as me winning Paris-Roubaix in 2014.

How are you riding?

dave

[BumbleBeeDave]

how long till taiwan production?

. . . it will be soon. Unless they have reached a new agreement with Lopez and his team in Poway, there will be no more carbon coming from there. Meanwhile they also own Blue which gets al ltheri frames from overseas.

If they were going to either kill the Serotta brand, or start making everything in Taiwan, a la Blue, and sell to a different demographic, then they don't have to care what previous owners think of whatever they do. If all they are going to sell are carbon Chinarellos . . .

BBD

[bicycletricycle]

that would be sweet, pinarello onda stays on the new serottas.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . where they plan to go with all of this. Are they making bad missteps? Or just necessary ones to get where they are planning to go?

Seems like they are taking actions without a lot of regard for former or possible repeat owners, so I'm guessing they have something in mind that makes them think they don't have to depend on repeat sales from the past of recommendations from former owners in order to succeed.

BBD

[FlashUNC]

"So you're saying there's a chance."

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QYsLkBvHR4U/T93Ap7BJaBI/AAAAAAAAAAk/NltcdbpZMlA/s400/Dumb%2Band%2BDumber%2B2%2BMovie.jpg

[mcteague]

I must admit this whole thing has me puzzled. The new owners are coming off like real sharks but they bought a niche market bike brand that had been losing ground for years. How much money could they make here? It just does not sound like the kind of business people looking for quick profit would pursue.

Then, they seem to be going about destroying the very name that actually may have some value. The Serotta name really is only known by the very people who, most likely, follow this debacle. My bet is they won't make much money and close it all down or resell before too long.

Tim

[FlashUNC]

How are you riding?

dave

About like Serotta these days. It looks ugly from the outside and feels worse on the inside. There's a lot of sound and fury, but that translates into very little actual forward motion.

And then I go anaerobic over speed bumps.

[sales guy]

Mark mcm,

Technically, once the company is sold, whatever corporate charter is dissolved and the company closed in the states registrar, they(old Serotta) can't be held liable. Just as a store that closes can't do a return or warranty on an item.

While Serotta the company is around, it would be a different EIN, corporate name, board and so on. Most companies have a time frame they hold to in these cases-warranties, salaries, health insurance and so forth. DCG most likely had one for everything.

This is more the case I am betting of DCG wants to solidify their ownership. To say hey, Ben isn't here, Serotta is. We are this company and we will do what we have to.

No, I don't work for them and never have but have been involved with bike companies that have sold to others or had issues of their own.

[sales guy]

Bumblebee and mcteague,

I think they are looking at Waterford as a model.

Waterford makes Gunnar, Waterford and other brands. Even did BMX for ages.

They may be looking at Shinola or other companies and saying to them we can do this and do it faster and cheaper with the Serotta name behind it and in America. Having 40 years of experience, even if Ben isn't there is still something. And DCG gets to use that. Someone like Shinola can say, hey, Serotta makes the bike! Lookie lookie!

They are looking at that I bet. Which makes a ton of sense now days.

[wooly]

About like Serotta these days. It looks ugly from the outside and feels worse on the inside. There's a lot of sound and fury, but that translates into very little actual forward motion.

And then I go anaerobic over speed bumps.

Funny stuff. I needed a laugh after this announcement.

[lemondvictoire]

Serotta Dealers with any new old stock bikes (made before 5/3/212) will be selling them with no warranty........................ More reasons for dealers to discontinue selling Serottas for good........................... I'll be looking for some major closeouts soon to save some $$$$$$$$$$$$............................

[Skenry]

I guess I don't understand. Everyone likes the Serotta brand because of the man, Ben Serotta. He doesn't work there anymore and its not really even the same company. The old structure is gone in favor of the new structure.

I managed a bike shop back in the day of Schwinn's demise. The warranty that had held solid for 100 years never made it into the 'second century'. Different owners, different rules. The new company had their own new warranty, and it was the same.

I can understand that this upsets some people. But its not really a surprise or a big deal, its the way things work now. Did this really shock you all?

[firerescuefin]

I don't understand how you can compare Schwinn and a small ultra high end Niche builder like Serotta. Poor example.


I guess I don't understand. Everyone likes the Serotta brand because of the man, Ben Serotta. He doesn't work there anymore and its not really even the same company. The old structure is gone in favor of the new structure.

I managed a bike shop back in the day of Schwinn's demise. The warranty that had held solid for 100 years never made it into the 'second century'. Different owners, different rules. The new company had their own new warranty, and it was the same.

I can understand that this upsets some people. But its not really a surprise or a big deal, its the way things work now. Did this really shock you all?

[mistermo]

Never had a Serotta, so I have no dog in this fight, but it struck me funny that the Serotta ad on the banner proclaims, "Experience Matters".

I guess it's only experience since 5/3/2012 that matters?!

[lemondvictoire]

Copy Paste from an email:

"Apologies for the delayed response. Serotta has gone through some changes recently and we are in the process of restructuring.

The current ownership of Serotta – which began on May 3, 2012 – has made the difficult decision not to honor the original warranty of bikes delivered before that date which were manufactured under the company's previous ownership. This was not a decision we arrived at easily.

If your bike does for some reason require repair due to manufacturing or materials defect in the future, we would evaluate your bike and determine the extent of the damage. If the frame is beyond repair, we will offer you a new frame at 50% of retail price. If the frame is repairable within a reasonable scope, the repair bill would be your responsibility.

If you would like to send in your frame and fork for evaluation, please write back and I will set up an RA for you and send shipping instructions.


Team Serotta
Serotta Cycles
41 Geyser Road
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
518.584.8100
518.261.4409 fax"

From the Serotta website concerning this part of the warranty....the fine print:
Previous iterations of Serotta’s Peace of Mind coverage have existed in the past. The terms above apply to Serotta SE models purchased since December 1, 2011 and SG models purchased since September 1, 2012. If you are the original owner of a Serotta who purchased a previous iteration of Peace of Mind, your original coverage as purchased will be honored in the event of an applicable claim. Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions.

The dates are a little confusing.......Lucky I don't have a new Serotta............................

[Dromen]

'Lifetime' of the company, not the bike's, yours or mine.

[texbike]

It sucks a** that a few owners are going to get hung out if/when their Serotta breaks. However, let's face it - outside of the innovation that Serotta brought to the market in the 80s/90s/early 2000s, it has been a badly run business. This is just another in a long line of winning business decisions.

When the buy out happened last year, I stated that Serotta was essentially a "dead" brand and irrelevant in today's marketplace. I still hold that opinion. Again, I feel bad for those that won't have the warranty that they were promised (or thought they had), but it's time to move on. There are plenty of other options in the market. The BigBoxBike Inc. guys are making incredible machines these days. If those don't float your boat, then there are a bunch of small guys that can build really cool stuff for you. Serotta is meaningless at this point except as a case study on how NOT to run a business.

Texbike

[laupsi]

wow wee, a bunch of opinions and really that's it, non informed opinions. the warranty issue really isn't a big deal stepping back and reading the fine print on the original "lifetime" warranty. this and the fact 50% of costs on an extreme failure will be compensated equates to not much being changed aside from the obvious "bad" will espoused. what am I missing?

perhaps in time the web site will also change, reflecting the various new/unfavorable developments taking place over there. perhaps then, it will make more sense?

[chris7ed]

When they look at the financial info wouldn't the lifetime warranties be considered a liability? Maybe the same as a bank loan? Not as easy to quantify as a bank loan for sure. And it was raised that when Serotta was purchased the buyer may not have purchased the warranties (I may be wording that wrong). Well I think anybody can see that selling an asset is easier if you can exclude some of the liabilities attached. Seems to me that this may not hold up if pressed.

[dd74]

wow wee, a bunch of opinions and really that's it, non informed opinions. the warranty issue really isn't a big deal stepping back and reading the fine print on the original "lifetime" warranty. this and the fact 50% of costs on an extreme failure will be compensated equates to not much being changed aside from the obvious "bad" will espoused. what am I missing?

perhaps in time the web site will also change, reflecting the various new/unfavorable developments taking place over there. perhaps then, it will make more sense?
LOL! Aren't you the guy who said in a related thread from last week that you'd never buy a bike from Brian Case? If so, I don't really think you're qualified to comment on warranties re. the new ownership.

[dd74]

No, I don't work for them and never have but have been involved with bike companies that have sold to others or had issues of their own.
Sales Guy, pm'd you.

[laupsi]

LOL! Aren't you the guy who said in a related thread from last week that you'd never buy a bike from Brian Case? If so, I don't really think you're qualified to comment on warranties re. the new ownership.

nope don't think I ever wrote/said anything to that effect

[sales guy]

Chris7ed,

A warranty can be consider both a liability and an asset. It depends. For some, like say a warranty contract with a police department, an asset. As you have a source of income ever though you may only be paid once a year and do a hundred hours of work on their bikes. Which of course you may not have expected that much time wise.

A warranty on a frame, could be both. It depends on the wording and if DCG paid for it. They may have looked at overall sales and said, yeah, we'll take it because they viewed it as repeat business or potential business.

Lots of ways to look at it. Not sure how they did it.

[Grant McLean]

I don't understand how you can compare Schwinn and a small ultra high end Niche builder like Serotta. Poor example.

Ok, how about Merlin?

Should Competitive Cyclist be responsible for the warranty of all Merlins?

The ones built in 1990s by Rob Vandermark's team? Maybe try to go see Seven?
built by Litespeed in the 00's? Try and go see Lynsky?

Warranties have conditions, one of them is that the same company you bought
it from will still be in business to service it. In a lot of cases (Schwinn included)
the writing was on the wall for YEARS before financial collapse made the
brand untenable.

-g

[1centaur]

Lots of ways to get out of warranties legally, as covered in this thread. The interesting part to me is "difficult decision." Obviously DCG considered the goodwill (as shown on this thread) vs. liability trade-off and decided the liability side won. We have heard how low the liability side might be. Therefore, the goodwill side is viewed as almost worthless (as others have said here in recent days). The Serotta brand name in particular is being dismissed, by this move. That should make it available for purchase at a very low price.

[alembical]

Damn! Seems real messed up and a poor business decision to me. You either get to keep the name, recognition, etc.. or not, but if you keep and use the name, you stand by the product.

I love my Serotta, and have for 15 years, and don't ever see getting rid of it, but I would not deal with this company now.

[aramis]

From the Serotta website concerning this part of the warranty....the fine print:
Previous iterations of Serotta’s Peace of Mind coverage have existed in the past. The terms above apply to Serotta SE models purchased since December 1, 2011 and SG models purchased since September 1, 2012. If you are the original owner of a Serotta who purchased a previous iteration of Peace of Mind, your original coverage as purchased will be honored in the event of an applicable claim. Please do not hesitate to contact us with any questions.

The dates are a little confusing.......Lucky I don't have a new Serotta............................

Sounds a little confusing to me too, are they saying if you have the "Peace of Mind Coverage" before Dec 2011 (SE) /Sep 2012 (SG) then nothing has changed at all?

[54ny77]

The genuine corinthian leather in my Cordoba is starting to crack. Should I pursue Ricardo Montalban, Lee Iacocca, or Chrysler to help resolve the warranty claim?

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/chrysler-cordoba-sport-coupe-76.jpg

[KidWok]

The genuine corinthian leather in my Cordoba is starting to crack. Should I pursue Ricardo Montalban, Lee Iacocca, or Chrysler to help resolve the warranty claim?

http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/chrysler-cordoba-sport-coupe-76.jpg

Oh man...that was the first car my parents had when we immigrated to the US. I remember having to climb into the back of that thing.

Not really a great analogy though. You're talking about a really old car that wouldn't be expected to run anymore and the Serotta warranty issues applies to all bikes made before the 2012 date. Without hearing specifically otherwise, it appears that this change includes coverage for anything that could be considered a manufacturing defect. Car companies actually DO honor their warranties even when they are bought by another company. I think people who own a 15+ month old car would definitely file a class action lawsuit if their warranty was nullified because the company was bought out. I don't buy the argument that a change in ownership entitles the company to do so. Same craftsmen, same materials, same facility, etc. Even if they COULDN'T warranty a carbon frame made in Poway, they could at least replace it with something in the existing Serotta/Blue product range.

Tai

[alembical]

Personally, I think this is legal and no problems or questions there. That does not make it a good business decision. This is really much more a question of perception. I think very few bikes were warrantied or would be covered by the warranty anyway, but it is still bad publicity at a time the company could use good publicity. Who would want to buy one of their bikes right now?

[laupsi]

did they also throw out the craftsmen doing the welds and the design work?

[Skenry]

I don't understand how you can compare Schwinn and a small ultra high end Niche builder like Serotta. Poor example.



Its not really comparing the Companies, its comparing the lifetime warranties. As someone else said, its the lifetime of the Company, not the lifetime of the buyer or even the product.

Though if you'd want to compare the companies, one was a hell of a lot bigger and failed in much the same way as the smaller. Lost the market and tried to stay too long using their name alone.

[mcteague]

Another thing that drives me nuts is the reaction of some to the warranty situation. A few make light of anyone wanting warranty service on a frame that claimed to come with lifetime coverage. That is not expecting a free lunch! Sure, there are exceptions when bikes are really abused but I would expect a defect to be covered if my frame said it had a lifetime warranty. This is not the same as split seat covers on an ancient car.

Tim

[mcteague]

Ok, how about Merlin?

Should Competitive Cyclist be responsible for the warranty of all Merlins?

The ones built in 1990s by Rob Vandermark's team? Maybe try to go see Seven?
built by Litespeed in the 00's? Try and go see Lynsky?

Warranties have conditions, one of them is that the same company you bought
it from will still be in business to service it. In a lot of cases (Schwinn included)
the writing was on the wall for YEARS before financial collapse made the
brand untenable.

-g
CC did not take over the company, just bought rights to the name from what I understand.

Tim

[shinomaster]

Rats, I was hoping to get a free paint job when my Atlanta seat tube rusted through..

[KidWok]

Ok, how about Merlin?

Should Competitive Cyclist be responsible for the warranty of all Merlins?

The ones built in 1990s by Rob Vandermark's team? Maybe try to go see Seven?
built by Litespeed in the 00's? Try and go see Lynsky?

Warranties have conditions, one of them is that the same company you bought
it from will still be in business to service it. In a lot of cases (Schwinn included)
the writing was on the wall for YEARS before financial collapse made the
brand untenable.

-g

ABG's purchase of Litespeed is probably a very close analogy to the current situation because it was a investment group that purchased an existing bike company, facilities and all. IIRC, they did continue to honor warranty claims BUT were much stingier about warranty-work than Litespeed in the Lynskey-era.

Tai

[Mark McM]

The genuine corinthian leather in my Cordoba is starting to crack. Should I pursue Ricardo Montalban, Lee Iacocca, or Chrysler to help resolve the warranty claim?

I think you'll see that if you examine the original warranty that it stipulates a specific time/mileage limit. This many years later, this car is clearly out of warranty.

A more pertinent question is whether the warranty on a more recent Chrysler product is covered by its new owner, Fiat.

[Pete Mckeon]

:confused: sell it on here now and no worry of a warranty

Wow!!!!!

As a new owner of a Serotta , that was built prior to the date mentioned, I am disappointed.

I purchased my bike in April. It was new old stock , sitting on the wall of the shop for awhile.

I love the bike, checked out the company prior to purchase, realized they weren't in great shape but the optimist in me saw the good things that could be.

I don't know if I'll need the warranty, but I will not support/suggest or even promote a company that won't take care of there products, current, past, or present.

Not a good start for a company trying to reinvent itself.

Wayne


Some people wonder if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem.
Ronald Reagan

[54ny77]

"divinnnnnnnne!!!!!!!'

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/3678392/khan-o.gif

[biker72]

The warranty issue is just the first step in cost cutting 101. A rather poor decision in broadcasting that you're out to @#&k the long time loyal customer.

Let's see what happens next.

[bfd]

ABG's purchase of Litespeed is probably a very close analogy to the current situation because it was a investment group that purchased an existing bike company, facilities and all. IIRC, they did continue to honor warranty claims BUT were much stingier about warranty-work than Litespeed in the Lynskey-era.

Tai

I believe ABG also honored the warranty work for Merlin customers when they acquired that company. About 6-8 years ago, my buddy who is the original owner of a 1993 or 94Massachusett-built Merlin found a crack on his ti frame that went around the shifter boss. :eek::butt::confused::crap:

He contacted Litespeed/ABG, which at the time I believe was the new owner of Merlin, and they told him to ship the frame back to them in Tennessee. Not only did his downtube get replaced, they also upgraded the headtube to a 1 and 1/8" (1.125") from 1". He still rides it today and loves it! All of it done *for free* under warranty! :beer::banana::):)

[TPetsch]

Wow, sad. I'm interpreting this message there are sending this way:

"We may be called Serotta but we are in no way associated with the Serotta you may remember. We may be around next year or we may not be, time will tell. And all you older, so called loyal brand customers? Well, we don't know you and we really don't care, we'll leave it to our dealers to try and sweet talk you into anther. ...Just business, nothing personal, tell your friends!."

Congratulations -New- Serotta, you just lost your Soul.

[Charles M]

This is one way to go...

Down the toilette...

[Grant McLean]

ABG's purchase of Litespeed is probably a very close analogy to the current situation because it was a investment group that purchased an existing bike company, facilities and all. IIRC, they did continue to honor warranty claims BUT were much stingier about warranty-work than Litespeed in the Lynskey-era.

Tai

I disagree. Litespeed was not bankrupt when ABG bought it.

I'm not sure people get the fact that Serotta was, and may still be finished
as an enterprise. The current situation keeps the patient on life support,
who would be dead now if not for their continued efforts.

If Serotta disappears completely, there will be no warranty for anyone either.

It's like when a pro-cycling team sponsor leaves, and all the riders are facing
termination of their contracts. If someone comes to the plate to save the team,
and offers to keep things going at lower salaries, are they obligated to pay
the previous contracts in place? I think not. It sounds to me like some folks
are saying how great it would be if someone saved the day, and keeps everyone
at full pay. That's nice, but what if that offer isn't on the table? Sounds like
some people would walk, just to spite the new owners who are trying to save
the team.

-g

[Climb01742]

From a business perspective, this feels like they're trying to tie up a loose end. The loose end being whatever financial exposure or liability there is in honoring warranties. Just guessing but it's the sort of thing you might do if you're seeking investors or trying to sell.

From a PR standpoint, this is yet another self inflected wound, in a corpse already riddled with them. It alienates past customers and... future customers? Why would anyone believe any sort of assurances the new company made about standing behind the products they will make? Makes a quality argument a lot harder to make.

The whole mess can be summed up in two letters. Oy.

[Tom]

I wrote this elsewhere, so forgive me. I dropped off an 8 year old Legend that had a cracked rear dropout. This was just before all the changes started happening this July. During the upheaval they told me the work would be done under warranty, which came as a big surprise because as I thought I had expressed that in my opinion it was usage not defect. I simply wanted that same frame back with Serotta dropouts in it. I would have been willing to pay for it, but did not insist.

It occurs to me that this is as much a codifying of internal policy as anything. A change in the wind direction would have been noticed by many. Then you have "Hey, they changed policy and didn't tell anyone!" Better to take your whacks up front.

The thing is, if I beat on the bike for about a year and can't break it then it was built right. It took two cars before mine became as creaky as me. There's a lot of other questions I'm going to ask before I get to warranty when it comes time for a new bike.

[firerescuefin]

Grant...you agree with the move then...and think this is just a bunch of hot air and hyperbole?

If they're going to target the same market, and wanted to build n the nostalgia associated with the name...I think it's idiotic.



I disagree. Litespeed was not bankrupt when ABG bought it.

I'm not sure people get the fact that Serotta was, and may still be finished
as an enterprise. The current situation keeps the patient on life support,
who would be dead now if not for their continued efforts.

If Serotta disappears completely, there will be no warranty for anyone either.

It's like when a pro-cycling team sponsor leaves, and all the riders are facing
termination of their contracts. If someone comes to the plate to save the team,
and offers to keep things going at lower salaries, are they obligated to pay
the previous contracts in place? I think not. It sounds to me like some folks
are saying how great it would be if someone saved the day, and keeps everyone
at full pay. That's nice, but what if that offer isn't on the table? Sounds like
some people would walk, just to spite the new owners who are trying to save
the team.

-g

[rice rocket]

I wrote this elsewhere, so forgive me. I dropped off an 8 year old Legend that had a cracked rear dropout. This was just before all the changes started happening this July. During the upheaval they told me the work would be done under warranty, which came as a big surprise because as I thought I had expressed that in my opinion it was usage not defect. I simply wanted that same frame back with Serotta dropouts in it. I would have been willing to pay for it, but did not insist.

It occurs to me that this is as much a codifying of internal policy as anything. A change in the wind direction would have been noticed by many. Then you have "Hey, they changed policy and didn't tell anyone!" Better to take your whacks up front.

The thing is, if I beat on the bike for about a year and can't break it then it was built right. It took two cars before mine became as creaky as me. There's a lot of other questions I'm going to ask before I get to warranty when it comes time for a new bike.

This.

[Charles M]

I don't think there's a big window (time wise) here and dressing that window with a dead cat won't help...

If the intent is to change course, so be it. But the bad faith in a limited portion of a small industry just doesn't make sense.

[CunegoFan]

The warranty issue is just the first step in cost cutting 101. A rather poor decision in broadcasting that you're out to @#&k the long time loyal customer.

Let's see what happens next.

The employees take it in the shorts next.

[rnhood]

I think the Serotta name will soon be gone and a new one introduced. As mentioned above, the company is basically bankrupt and on life support while the current owners look to take advantage of possible opportunities given the assets (personnel and equipment) at hand. I wish them luck but it will be a difficult road ahead, especially given the cost of American labor (especially NY labor).

Its too bad Ben wasn't a smarter businessman. He and Bill might surface again in some biking capacity but, don't expect them to be honoring any legacy warranty claims.

[Grant McLean]

Grant...you agree with the move then...and think this is just a bunch of hot air and hyperbole?



I think, at best, they're delaying the inevitable.

The brand has been dead for a decade, and I have no idea why anyone
would waste money or effort to try to save the company, let alone buy one of the bikes.

-g

[Seramount]

please...just stop using the name Serotta.

the brand is dead to me.

[sales guy]

Grant,

I disagree with the brand being dead for a decade. Far from it.

[sitzmark]

Its too bad Ben wasn't a smarter businessman. He and Bill might surface again in some biking capacity but, don't expect them to be honoring any legacy warranty claims.

Honoring legacy warranty coverage is an opportunity for Ben/Bill (Berotta) to inexpensively "buy" a loyal customer base if the frames are as durable and robust as their reputation. Of course, this assumes Ben and/or Bill have any aspirations of building bicycles again.

Secondarily, an immediate revenue opportunity exists in the form of "warranty recertification". For a fee, original-owner or resale frames that pass an inspection process could be re-certified for lifetime coverage due to manufacturing defect. Again, if the frames are robust this is a way of offering piece-of-mind to loyal customers without creating significant liability and generating incremental revenue at the same time.

Any company wanting to convert the loyal Serotta customer base could version either program to entice Serotta owners to jump ship on their next purchase. If warranty is a real customer concern, then a marketing opportunity exists.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think the Serotta name will soon be gone and a new one introduced. As mentioned above, the company is basically bankrupt and on life support while the current owners look to take advantage of possible opportunities given the assets (personnel and equipment) at hand . . .

. . . this is a pretty good bet at this point. :(

The only question is what name will they come up with? Fold it into Blue? Or something new?

BBD

[Vientomas]

. . . this is a pretty good bet at this point. :(

The only question is what name will they come up with? Fold it into Blue? Or something new?

BBD

Something old or something borrowed?

[mosca]

I think, at best, they're delaying the inevitable.

The brand has been dead for a decade, and I have no idea why anyone
would waste money or effort to try to save the company, let alone buy one of the bikes.

-g
I remember reading a quote from Ferdinand Piech (I think), after Volkswagen had resurrected the Audi brand, that in retrospect it would have been cheaper to build a new brand from scratch than to rebuild Audi's reputation.

It makes me wonder why DCG went this route. They got a formerly-respected name, a few employees, and a factory that doesn't seem to be designed for what they are undertaking. Wouldn't it have been much easier to start from scratch?

[Doug Fattic]

A "lifetime warranty" is a marketing strategy. It isn't so much about fixing mistakes in manufacturing as it is an argument to close a sale. It can make a customer feel like he can have confidence in the maker because they assure him it won't break for a long time and if it does they will fix it for free. Serotta made a business decision to charge more for a frame to pay for a generous replacement policy. The new owners might have thought that wasn't good accounting.

All manufactured things have a limited life and should not be expected to last forever. I'll bet most of their warranty returns were caused by real life wear and tear instead of a true manufacturing defect. A liberal replacement policy keeps the whiners from complaining online and distracting other potential customers.

If a bicycle company wants to insure that a frame they make will not break they are going to over build it and as a result won't have the best ride. They have to assume that some 300 lb uncoordinated jerk is going to want to warranty his frame when he hit a pot hole ("I was just riding along…"). It isn't a frame I would ever want to ride. Chicago built Schwinn Paramounts used to be constructed out of the heaviest 531 tubing Reynolds made. I never liked the way they rode because of it.

[BryanE]

. . . this is a pretty good bet at this point. :(

The only question is what name will they come up with? Fold it into Blue? Or something new?

BBD

And now Bikes Direct is proud to offer you the NEW Serotta!
How embarrassing

[pbarry]

I remember reading a quote from Ferdinand Piech (I think), after Volkswagen had resurrected the Audi brand, that in retrospect it would have been cheaper to build a new brand from scratch than to rebuild Audi's reputation.

It makes me wonder why DCG went this route. They got a formerly-respected name, a few employees, and a factory that doesn't seem to be designed for what they are undertaking. Wouldn't it have been much easier to start from scratch?

The price was cheap.

[dogdriver]

"has made the difficult decision not to honor the original warranty"

From the same management book as, "I'm resigning to spend more time with my family", and "We expect the combining of these two fine companies to yield extensive synergies".

[Gat64]

I propose we design a "Ben" decal and organize a group buy. Then all of us "true" Serotta owners can apply them to our bikes and leave the mothership.

[nm87710]

Why all the hate for DCG?

[54ny77]

^^^^ exactly.

the buck stops with the guy who's name is on the downtube and the mgmt who ran the company. they deserve the vindictive.

all else is scapegoating and revisionist history.

the downfall is well documented here & elsewhere.

i feel bad for the employees most of all. hopefully they're taken care of.

and yeah, the new owners are doing some dumb things. oh well. i'm not buying a bike from them nor am i buying the company, so neither of us give a sH&! about each other anyway.

[firerescuefin]

Why all the hate for DCG?

Did they run Serotta into the ground?
Did they sell lifetime warranties and collect the revenue associated with the sale of lifetime warranty frames?
Did they make capital investment, production, management or employee decisions that led to the downfall?

All those things were done without DCG at the helm. If one has a warranty issue with a frame sold during the "Serotta "ownership era then contact BS. Maybe he'll cowboy up and honor what he sold.

This is just part of the unraveling process of a failed business model and poor business decisions. It's not personal - just business. Unfortunate for shareholders, suppliers, employees and customers who bought into the company.

I don't disagree with your post. You make a lot of solid points...I would say it's just bad business....as I said earlier...penny wise/pound foolish

[Louis]

It's not personal - just business.

"It's just business." Right - tell that to the guy who bought a $$$$ bike one day before some magical date and for some reason completely out of his control no longer has a warranty, whereas the other guy who bought his bike two days later does have a warranty.

[pbarry]

From my background in a similar frame production environment to Saratoga's, DCG is blowing it in the PR arena:

1. Announcing in a trade journal that they are open for contract work.
2. Cancelling of the lifetime warranty to the original purchaser.

Both are bone-headed moves. The idea of contract building could have been put out discretely to select industry firms, and frames could have been built, without the whole world knowing, and the resulting instant devaluation of the brand. Why pay $xxxx for a Serotta, when you could get a Serotta made Specialized Meibaix DeLuxe for $xxx?

The second is posturing at best, and bean counting without doing your homework, [poll of dealers, focus groups, input from industry insiders] at worst. There are many repeat customers on the forum. Doubt if more than one or two would buy another Serotta with the new policy.

Serotta made 40,000 bikes? Guessing here: 20% are still owned and ridden by the original purchaser. Say, 5% of those may need a repair in the next decade = 400 repairs spread out over 10 years. If 40 repairs a year is going to break DCG, the business model is weak. They'll have warranty issues in the future with all three of their brands--everyone in manufacturing does.

[oldpotatoe]

I propose we design a "Ben" decal and organize a group buy. Then all of us "true" Serotta owners can apply them to our bikes and leave the mothership.

Ben put holes in the mothership, it was sinking, it sank.

[pbarry]

Ben put holes in the mothership, it was sinking, it sank.

Yep. No sticker on my bike.

[OtayBW]

I really have no idea about the business implications that went into making this decision, but I can tell you that generating BAD FAITH does not contribute much to the bottom line either. After reading 10 pages without anyone having much of anything positive to say about all this, I'd have to say that CUSTOMER SATISFACTION does not seem to be a part of the new company's business plan.

Seems like Ready, Fire, Aim!

[Zoomie80]

The lifetime warranty was one reason I chose Serotta to build my bike 10 years ago. It's a shame the new owners made a business decision to not honor our bike's lifetime warranty. Likewise, I've now made a business decision to buy my next steed from Dave Kirk, Kelly Bedford, or Tom Kellogg.

Zoomie

[Skrawny]

Say what you will about the Ben's management of the company, under his charge they built darn good bikes.

DCG has made stupid PR decisions (even if some may have saved some money).
I find it hard not to believe they could have engineered what -at least on the surface- would seem like a more amicable parting of Ben. This would have pissed people off less.

Would they saved more in brand loyalty by keeping the lifetime warranty than the they have money at risk with all those frames out there? I think they would have.

They may be making decisions that bean counters approve of -yes, it is just business- but they still come out looking like like corporate pricks.

I agree with a previous poster: I love my Serottas. DCG should stop using the name and let it die. We can morn. Let Ben come back in another form; Americans love a good comeback story.

-s

[SPOKE]

I'll just continue to enjoy the 7 Serotta's the mother ship built for me. I'm disappointed that the new owners of the brand have decided to walk away from the warranty on the older frames. This move throws away a huge chunk of hood will. A bigger concern for me is the customers that i sold new frames too over the past 8-10 years are now without warranty. I'll have to deal with the initial dissapointment thes folks will have should they ever have a problem.

On a happier note.... I've met a bunch of great cycling souls due to Serotta (the man and company). I'm very thankful for this. Maybe its time to move past the ugly happenings of the past several weeks and consider putting together a Paceline gathering?

[Skrawny]

Maybe its time to move past the ugly happenings of the past several weeks and consider putting together a Paceline gathering?

I move we have it in San Francisco.

:rolleyes:

[William]

Maybe its time to move past the ugly happenings of the past several weeks and consider putting together a Paceline gathering?

We had one in Rhode Island already.;)

But, I'm all for putting another one together.






William

[Bruce K]

Gloucester? Providence? Both?

Hey, it IS cross season?

BK

[Gat64]

Ben put holes in the mothership, it was sinking, it sank.

I bought a Serotta because I liked the design, not what was in the business plan.

[cmg]

they could have cancelled the lifetime warranty per request of repair/replacement and it would of had less of an effect that the public annoucement will.

[Fixed]

I would still buy a serotta , but it would be an older model (used ,)one great thing about a serotta is the owners , they take great care of their bikes .
Cheers :)

[jpw]

what might this do to the used market?

[texbike]

what might this do to the used market?

Just looking at the listings on ebay, it seems that there has already been a significant increase in the number of Serottas that have come up for sale since the announcement of Ben's departure, etc. I'm not sure if this is due to people trying to cash in on those that want a Serotta and need to get one before its "too late" or if people are just dumping them due to the demise of the company.

Texbike

[jpw]

what does this all mean for carbon forks for Serotta frames going forward? If a Serotta fork fails or needs replacing is the standard height of an F3 (372mm) going to be easy to find? Enve road forks are 367mm.

[jpw]

Just looking at the listings on ebay, it seems that there has already been a significant increase in the number of Serottas that have come up for sale since the announcement of Ben's departure, etc. I'm not sure if this is due to people trying to cash in on those that want a Serotta and need to get one before before its "too late" or if people are just dumping them due to the demise of the company.

Texbike

interesting observation.

[Pete Mckeon]

what does this all mean for carbon forks for Serotta frames going forward? If a Serotta fork fails or needs replacing is the standard height of an F3 (372mm) going to be easy to find? Enve road forks are 367mm.

Yes:banana:

[Pete Mckeon]

They are still the same quality they were but maybe folks want to move :bike:

Just looking at the listings on ebay, it seems that there has already been a significant increase in the number of Serottas that have come up for sale since the announcement of Ben's departure, etc. I'm not sure if this is due to people trying to cash in on those that want a Serotta and need to get one before its "too late" or if people are just dumping them due to the demise of the company.

Texbike

[christian]

what might this do to the used market?

Shouldn't do anything to the used market. Used bikes don't have any warranty at all. That's one of the reasons they sell for ~40% of the new price.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just looking at the listings on ebay, it seems that there has already been a significant increase in the number of Serottas that have come up for sale since the announcement of Ben's departure, etc. I'm not sure if this is due to people trying to cash in on those that want a Serotta and need to get one before its "too late" or if people are just dumping them due to the demise of the company.

Texbike

. . . are probably dealers. I have seen some pretty old NOS Serotta frames on eBay before from dealers trying to move out floor stock that's collecting dust.

Last time I was in Belmost Wheelworks (just after Memorial Day) they had at least 10 complete bikes in their basement NOS, and many were for sure from before that May 2012 date--Fiertes, Attacks, HSG's. The value of all those bikes just sunk quite a bit if they now no longer have any warranty.

If I were a dealer and had any other high end brands avaiable at all on my floor, there's no way I would be pushing anybody toward a Serotta, and I would be seriously re-evaluating my dealer relationship with them.

I just can't figure out what the new management is aiming for, though I'm sure it will become clear in time. Interesting to watch and see. It's almost as if they are trying to drive the previous Serotta demographic away.

But if they ARE trying to do that in anticipation of some totally different direction--like releasing a series of rebadged, lower priced, Blue-designed frames--then what current Serotta sealer who already has other brands on the floor in that same price niche is going to want to continue to sell Serotta?

The next couple of months should be fun(?) to watch, and provide lots of news stories for BRAIN.

BBD

[alembical]

Shouldn't do anything to the used market. Used bikes don't have any warranty at all. That's one of the reasons they sell for ~40% of the new price.

It could however cause people to want to get rid of their own bikes now that they either no longer have a warranty or just that they are unhappy with the company and not wanting to support them... causing an increase in the number on the market and therefore a decrease of their value. No change to warranty issue though for purchaser. Never was one for second hand purchaser.

[alembical]

While I still love my bike, the ride is the same, and I don't see myself getting rid of it anytime soon, I will admit that I am less stoked rolling around on a Serotta than I was a year or two ago. Personally, I would definitely not buy a new one... if that is even an option any more.
__

I know almost absolutely nothing about the local bike shop business. Can someone help me out? Are the Serotta's on the sales floor, or in the basement, property of the lbs? Did they already pay Serotta for them? Any idea approximately the amount they paid versus the retail sales prices Serotta publishes? Could these be returned to Serotta? Does Serotta just sell them to the dealers as frames that that the lbs then builds up as they wish? Sorry in advance for such remedial questions.

[sheh8me2]

Ten years from now, we can all sit by the fire and talk of Serotta in the same way that we now talk of Masi and Motobecane. I wonder how much a 2023 Serotta will cost on Nashbar.

[jbrainin]

I wonder how much a 2023 Serotta will cost on Nashbar.

They won't be available at Nashbar: Walmart will be selling them.

[jpw]

Yes:banana:

it is going to be easy to find?

[malcolm]

Why all the hate for DCG?

Did they run Serotta into the ground?
Did they sell lifetime warranties and collect the revenue associated with the sale of lifetime warranty frames?
Did they make capital investment, production, management or employee decisions that led to the downfall?

All those things were done without DCG at the helm. If one has a warranty issue with a frame sold during the "Serotta "ownership era then contact BS. Maybe he'll cowboy up and honor what he sold.

This is just part of the unraveling process of a failed business model and poor business decisions. It's not personal - just business. Unfortunate for shareholders, suppliers, employees and customers who bought into the company.


This:
For the folks taking over the company it's a new day. I agree from a PR stand point it may have been wise to honor the warranty, but Ben et al built your bike call them up if it breaks and see what you get.

[cmbicycles]

Are the Serotta's on the sales floor, or in the basement, property of the lbs?Yep, pretty much everything on the lbs sales floor/basement is paid for by the lbs.

Did they already pay Serotta for them? Most likely Serotta was paid in full within 30 days of delivery

Any idea approximately the amount they paid versus the retail sales prices Serotta publishes? No idea, but for high-end bikes maybe a 10-15% margin, if that high. What any individual shop pays usually varies based on their dealer agreement and the number of units they sell/stock

Could these be returned to Serotta? Maybe, pre-DCG, minus a re-stocking penalty. The current company doesn't want anything back, as evidenced by their warranty decision.

Does Serotta just sell them to the dealers as frames that the lbs then builds up as they wish? mostly framesets yes
Sorry in advance for such remedial questions.

My armchair guestimates in bold.

[WickedWheels]

... bean counting without doing your homework, [poll of dealers, focus groups, input from industry insiders] at worst. There are many repeat customers on the forum. Doubt if more than one or two would buy another Serotta with the new policy.

Serotta made 40,000 bikes? Guessing here: 20% are still owned and ridden by the original purchaser. Say, 5% of those may need a repair in the next decade = 400 repairs spread out over 10 years. If 40 repairs a year is going to break DCG, the business model is weak. They'll have warranty issues in the future with all three of their brands--everyone in manufacturing does.


The decision not to honor warranties makes sense in only one scenario... if they are 100% committed to shutting down the US facility and selling pre-made re-badged bikes. Repairing a drop-out or a cracked tube is not a big deal, if bikes are made here. It's not possible if your business model is simply to receive a container of Chinese carbon and flip it to a mail order company.

[shinomaster]

While I still love my bike, the ride is the same, and I don't see myself getting rid of it anytime soon, I will admit that I am less stoked rolling around on a Serotta than I was a year or two ago. Personally, I would definitely not buy a new one... if that is even an option any more.
__

I know almost absolutely nothing about the local bike shop business. Can someone help me out? Are the Serotta's on the sales floor, or in the basement, property of the lbs? Did they already pay Serotta for them? Any idea approximately the amount they paid versus the retail sales prices Serotta publishes? Could these be returned to Serotta? Does Serotta just sell them to the dealers as frames that that the lbs then builds up as they wish? Sorry in advance for such remedial questions.


The people that made your bike, aren't the same ones running the company now, so why should that affect how you feel about your bike?

[Kirk007]

Speaking of used opps - just checked ebay - really nice ti frame for around $700 but the killer is the three year old Meivici from BeSpoke Cycles - one of the most appealing color schemes I've seen, and in my size, with a buy it now price of $1900 (states original price was $8295).!

Oh if I could only sneak another frame in the house I'd be tempted!

[alembical]

The people that made your bike, aren't the same ones running the company now, so why should that affect how you feel about your bike?

Doesn't really affect the way I feel about my bike, but does affect the fact that I don't want to be willingly advertising for them. Next time I get my CSi repainted, I will not add Serotta logos to it. Might do the old Huffy/Murray or might go without. It will ride the same... wonderfully.

[PaMtbRider]

Speaking of used opps - just checked ebay - really nice ti frame for around $700 but the killer is the three year old Meivici from BeSpoke Cycles - one of the most appealing color schemes I've seen, and in my size, with a buy it now price of $1900 (states original price was $8295).!

Oh if I could only sneak another frame in the house I'd be tempted!

I saw that Meivici a couple of months ago and cannot believe it hasn't sold. He originally had it listed for $2500 and I thought it was a deal then. It's my size, and it is very tempting

[bcm119]

Doesn't really affect the way I feel about my bike, but does affect the fact that I don't want to be willingly advertising for them. Next time I get my CSi repainted, I will not add Serotta logos to it. Might do the old Huffy/Murray or might go without. It will ride the same... wonderfully.

I guess I understand that logic, but I just don't feel that way at all. I have no problem riding my 10 yr old Serotta around... if I'm advertising, it's an ad for the Serotta of that era, not the present company.

[alembical]

I guess I understand that logic, but I just don't feel that way at all. I have no problem riding my 10 yr old Serotta around... if I'm advertising, it's an ad for the Serotta of that era, not the present company.

... and I think that will likely be future attitude as well. I would ride an old Paramount, Bridgestone, masi, etc.. happily. I am just really hoping the Serotta name is gone rather than diluted.

[pbarry]

Any idea approximately the amount they paid versus the retail sales prices Serotta publishes?

Rough guess: 70% of retail. Others here can nail that down definitively.

[SoCalSteve]

I saw that Meivici a couple of months ago and cannot believe it hasn't sold. He originally had it listed for $2500 and I thought it was a deal then. It's my size, and it is very tempting

Me too....problem is a re-paint wont be cheap and it certainly needs the HUGE Bespoke logo removed....

[DRZRM]

I don't mind the "Bespoke," I think that is the name of his shop, but it is built on a 6.5 F-3 fork, and the owner (iirc) weights about 160. Right size, wrong build, that is a great looking bike though. Glad I have my Legend, I'd likely grab an Ottrott at the right price though.

Me too....problem is a re-paint wont be cheap and it certainly needs the HUGE Bespoke logo removed....

[mike p]

+1 let us remember Serotta as 7/11, Coors Lite, ect ect. I don't ever want to see a Serotta in Wall Mart!

Mike

"I am just really hoping the Serotta name is gone rather than diluted."

[dustyrider]

I was going to avoid this thread just long enough for it get to locked and then move along. Since we're being so amicable, I wanted to share a recent experience I had at the LBS. I am a patient person when it comes to bikes. I've had a Colorado CR sitting around for a little over a year. Best guess estimate I'll have it built up right in time for winter....but she'll be sweet, and costs have been low and spread out.
Anyways, I brought the recently refinished frame and fork into the shop for chasing and facing. When I went to pick it up the following evening, the shop ride was gathering. Folks were into the bike, it's a hot pink to a dark blue fade, quite a few had no clue who, or what serotta was, or is (depending on which side of the fence you're on) and merely complemented the color choice. However, the university cycling team was there as well, and one of the guys was super excited to talk bikes. Apparently he had checked it out thoroughly before I arrived. I got the sense from talking to him, we spoke bike geek, that he enjoyed the bike solely for it's features, and cared to know nothing of the brand. Sure it's not the crl, but there are still refinements that are worthy of representation.
I didn't feel one way or another about the name on the bike, and it didn't seem to matter to most folks. Those that I spoke with were wrapped up in the nostalgia of this era of road bikes, or the simple mechanics of the beast.
Sure, Serotta wouldn't sell me the stickers and they wouldn't work with my nearest dealer (+200 miles away). They quoted me outrageous prices to refinish, there is no longer a warranty for their bikes, I still can't fathom the resource pool it would take to afford a custom one off from them(skool teacher).
But, I don't think any of it matters, because bikes are like a snap shot of an era. I happen to detest the broken seat stay era, others adore it(no offense kirk your work is outstanding). Carbon and ti lugs make my brain hurt, others adore it. Lugged steel with retro fade....I'm a warm goo of happy.

Each to their own, hopefully you're enjoying the ride!

[pbarry]

Great story, Dusty! :banana:

[Skrawny]

Great story, Dusty! :banana:

1+

-s

[bfd]

Haha, I don't know why all the negativity?! :no::butt::rolleyes:

On the CR list, there's a thread on Serotta refinishing work:

"Serotta has reduced prices for re-finishing work:

A single color steel which was $695 at full retail, is now $522...and we’ll now refinish frames and forks from any high-quality brand."

So, rejoice! :banana: Serotta has now discounted its re-finishing work! :p;)

What's not to like?!....

[cnighbor1]

Ah the old BS trick
Charles

[victork]

Copy Paste from an email:

"Apologies for the delayed response. Serotta has gone through some changes recently and we are in the process of restructuring.

The current ownership of Serotta – which began on May 3, 2012 – has made the difficult decision not to honor the original warranty of bikes delivered before that date which were manufactured under the company's previous ownership. This was not a decision we arrived at easily.

If your bike does for some reason require repair due to manufacturing or materials defect in the future, we would evaluate your bike and determine the extent of the damage. If the frame is beyond repair, we will offer you a new frame at 50% of retail price. If the frame is repairable within a reasonable scope, the repair bill would be your responsibility.

If you would like to send in your frame and fork for evaluation, please write back and I will set up an RA for you and send shipping instructions.


Team Serotta
Serotta Cycles
41 Geyser Road
Saratoga Springs, NY 12866
518.584.8100
518.261.4409 fax"

I'm going to pull the labels from my Legend 2002 and go bare polished titanium.

[Elefantino]

The people that made your bike, aren't the same ones running the company now, so why should that affect how you feel about your bike?
Shino shoots ...

goooooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllll llllllllllllllll!

[bfd]

Ah the old BS trick
Charles

Nah, what's BS is if you go to Serotta's website, there is still a "lifetime warranty!" It says:

All Serotta frames and forks are delivered with a robust warranty to back up the highest quality American workmanship. Our artisan frame and fork craftsmen spend 30 to 40 hours painstakingly assembling and finishing each frameset by hand. With that kind of focused dedication, it is easy for Serotta to provide the following warranty to the original owner:

***Lifetime warranty on frame and fork materials and workmanship*** (emphasis added)

One-year warranty on frame and fork finish to include paint and clear coat

There is, of course, some “fine print” which you can read in the full text of our warranty. Click here to download a PDF.

link: http://serotta.com/warranty/

Further, if you go to the "fine print" pdf the first sentence reads:

"LIFETIME WARRANTY ON FRAME AND MATERIALS: Serotta provides a lifetime warranty against defective workmanship and materials on all bicycle frames manufactured by Serotta"

link: http://serotta.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Serotta-Limited-Warranty-130523.pdf

So if you want Bull, here it is! This is totally misleading. If a person is looking for a bike and doesn't know of Serotta's "new" policy, then reads this lifetime warranty crap, guess what, they could get suckered into giving them money! :mad::butt::eek: How cool is that?! :(:no:

Shame on them....

[grawk]

I'd think small claims court would side with the buyer, unless a bankruptcy court had let them out of the prior obligation. They bought the company, not the name.
That said, IANAL. I would definitely take them to small claims court if I had a serotta with a failed frame.

[djg]

Originally Posted by nicrump
i'm no lawyer but I'd bet this would fall to most states deceptive practices acts and at least in Texas, they "team S" would loose in court.

Who would take them there?

Anybody? I don't know what promises/liabilities the new owners can discharge when, but liabilities don't simply evaporate upon sale of the company (even bankruptcy proceedings impose a structured way of dealing with liabilities, albeit one that leaves many creditors holding some or all of the bag). And as Nic suggests, there may be other state law issues, such as state law bans on unfair business practices, materially false or misleading advertising, etc. (there are federal law analogs as well).

In many states, a private individual can take a claim to some sort of small claims court -- there's typically a damages cutoff between cheap court & pricey court, but those cutoffs have floated up in many places to where they might well cover the price of a Serotta frame (maybe not a Meivici). There's also, typically, a consumer protection office/division/entity-name-here within the state's Attorney General's office -- no guarantee they'll bring a case, but this is the sort of thing they pursue, especially if they receive multiple complaints about a single company.

I'm not saying it's easy to collect, or get any other form of satisfaction, should things go wrong. But I think there are likely ways to seek recourse without hiring representation that costs more than the frame.

For my own part, I'm not terribly worried about the warranty on my HSG -- I think it's pretty unlikely that the frame will fail. Heck, although that one was bought new, I've bought used frames before without much concern about the non-existant warranty.

[laupsi]

although my LBS has discontinued to sell Serotta products, stating inconsistent reports coming from the new owner(s), he's informed me of the following: in the 10 or so years he's been selling Serotta bikes/frames he's had only one come back for a manufacture related problem. it was a Ti mountain bike, it developed a crack in the weld at the seat tube and BB. He estimates he has sold over 100 Serotta related frames/bikes. 1/100 being conservative, is a pretty solid pool to draw from.

odds show this is a non monetary issue. of course it smacks in the face to those longing for a time when all was right w/the Serotta world. (has this ever been the case?)

[oldpotatoe]

While I still love my bike, the ride is the same, and I don't see myself getting rid of it anytime soon, I will admit that I am less stoked rolling around on a Serotta than I was a year or two ago. Personally, I would definitely not buy a new one... if that is even an option any more.
__

I know almost absolutely nothing about the local bike shop business. Can someone help me out? Are the Serotta's on the sales floor, or in the basement, property of the lbs? Did they already pay Serotta for them? Any idea approximately the amount they paid versus the retail sales prices Serotta publishes? Could these be returned to Serotta? Does Serotta just sell them to the dealers as frames that that the lbs then builds up as they wish? Sorry in advance for such remedial questions.

Any bicycle in a bike shop is owned by the shop. Ya buy them up front. Not like a car dealership owned by the factory.

Probably paid in the vicinity of 35 point of margin, that is divide cost by .65 to get retail price. A $650 frame cost, sells for $1000, type thing.

No returns even when serotta was serotta. Bought as frames/forks, built by shop, in general.

[gemship]

I wonder if the new owners of Serotta plan on rebadging the bike and starting a whole new brand with the existing factory,tooling and expertise of workers?

It seems the name Serotta is losing cache fast.

[jpw]

I wonder if the new owners of Serotta plan on rebadging the bike and starting a whole new brand with the existing factory,tooling and expertise of workers?

It seems the name Serotta is losing cache fast.

Mercedes and Maybach perhaps?

[1centaur]

Anybody? I don't know what promises/liabilities the new owners can discharge when, but liabilities don't simply evaporate upon sale of the company (even bankruptcy proceedings impose a structured way of dealing with liabilities, albeit one that leaves many creditors holding some or all of the bag). And as Nic suggests, there may be other state law issues, such as state law bans on unfair business practices, materially false or misleading advertising, etc. (there are federal law analogs as well).

As others have noted, it probably revolves around what was bought. It's not a question of buying "the company" or not. A buyer can buy the factory, it can buy the name, it can buy the right to use the name, it can buy the tooling, it can buy the intellectual property (Colorado Concept, e.g.), but still not buy "the company." A seller negotiates what is being sold. The liability profile, including warranties, would be one such element, and would be a subtraction from the purchase price. If Ben's legal entity sold everything but the liability stream to Bradway, then the smart thing to do is dissolve that former legal entity immediately so there's nothing to be gone after by future creditors. To the extent the shell exists and has no assets, any attempt to pursue a claim against it would result in a bankruptcy filing of the entity at that point, which is an expense and a hassle, and would not result in a claim being paid anyway so who would bother?

Quite possibly Bradway and DCG NEVER had a legal responsibility for pre-purchase warranty claims after the Bradway purchase but chose to "honor" them for good will purposes. Having the situation blow up as it did kind of wiped out enough good will that they decided not to continue to pay for claims that they themselves had not generated or bought. Again, that implies the Serotta name is available for a low price.

The real details are in contracts we'll never see, so the above is just reasonable speculation.

[gemship]

Mercedes and Maybach perhaps?

Yes perhaps. I skimmed thru the many pages of this thread but I am surprised not one post has not worded a thought in likeness of my post. At least none that I read. All the same I will only take partial credit because... if this does happen as I think it may I will freely say I told you so :p

[weatherman]

As others have noted, it probably revolves around what was bought. It's not a question of buying "the company" or not. A buyer can buy the factory, it can buy the name, it can buy the right to use the name, it can buy the tooling, it can buy the intellectual property (Colorado Concept, e.g.), but still not buy "the company." A seller negotiates what is being sold. The liability profile, including warranties, would be one such element, and would be a subtraction from the purchase price. If Ben's legal entity sold everything but the liability stream to Bradway, then the smart thing to do is dissolve that former legal entity immediately so there's nothing to be gone after by future creditors. To the extent the shell exists and has no assets, any attempt to pursue a claim against it would result in a bankruptcy filing of the entity at that point, which is an expense and a hassle, and would not result in a claim being paid anyway so who would bother?

Quite possibly Bradway and DCG NEVER had a legal responsibility for pre-purchase warranty claims after the Bradway purchase but chose to "honor" them for good will purposes. Having the situation blow up as it did kind of wiped out enough good will that they decided not to continue to pay for claims that they themselves had not generated or bought. Again, that implies the Serotta name is available for a low price.

The real details are in contracts we'll never see, so the above is just reasonable speculation.

Plain and simple it comes down to whether this was an asset purchase or a stock purchase. If Bradway and DCG purchased the 'assets', they are free to do so without taking along any liabilities associated with the prior company. While someone might go after them (under a variety of theories), the bottom line is they can acquire the assets sans liabilities. On the other hand, if they purchased the stock (equity) of the company, the liabilities come with it. Sure, they could have negotiated a holdback or some other fund to hold a portion of the purchase price should such claims arise and fall upon the new owners.

So, this really isn't a question of consumer protection or any other 'public policy' to protect people. This is M&A 101, happens all the time. I am relatively certain Bradway purchased the 'assets' in this deal and didn't want to touch the stock/equity (and thus liabilities) with a ten foot pole (ti, carbon or otherwise!)

Doesn't make the situation any better. So thankful I declined an opportunity to invest in this deal when it came along given the train wreck it has turned into.

[sitzmark]

Any bicycle in a bike shop is owned by the shop. Ya buy them up front. Not like a car dealership owned by the factory.

Probably paid in the vicinity of 35 point of margin, that is divide cost by .65 to get retail price. A $650 frame cost, sells for $1000, type thing.

No returns even when serotta was serotta. Bought as frames/forks, built by shop, in general.

Cars on dealer's lots are also dealer owned. "Factory" can carry the loan of capital for dealers to buy the cars, but ultimately the cars (and the financial liability) belong to the dealer. Sometimes the factory provides "incentives" to dealers and/or customers to move units so they can keep production going. A slippery slope and part of the reason US car companies hit financial ruin and started over.

Bike shops, ski shops, etc. work on net payment terms or borrow capital (from a few hundred grand to a million or more) to buy inventory and pay interest on the borrowed money. Deep discount end-of-season sales are a last ditch effort to pay off loans so new loans can be secured to buy next year's inventory. ...and so it goes until a shop owner consistently shows dwindling profitability and can't convince a lender they are a good risk for an inventory loan. At that point profits from the inventory on hand must cover the monthly nut or the lights go out.

[Tom]

Cars on dealer's lots are also dealer owned.

Huge thread drift. Anybody see that article about the upcoming auto auction in Nebraska of all the unsold Chevys from a dealership that go back to the early fifties. Apparently the owner had a high volume low cost approach and if he had leftover stock he simply stored it. There are rare and untitled cars just sitting there, some with like 1 mile on the odo. It's almost worth just going out there to view even if you weren't going to buy.

And now back to your regularly scheduled wailing and gnashing of teeth....

[JER3]

Even though there is a lot of buzz on this forum about this topic, it strikes me that management is banking on the fact that the average Serotta owner likely has no idea about the recent changes at the company or the revocation of warranty. Given the reliabiliy of the old frames its likely that most owners will never know or care. Of course those unlucky few that have something break won't be happy!

On a side note, I was actively working with Serotta to initiate having my 20 year old Colorado Legend CR refinished at the time this announcement was made. I had been wanting to refinish this bike for a long time but never could seem to make it a priority. When they announced the price reduction I thought, yes!, this is the time to finally do it. It will help me and hep the company keep going through a rough patch. Win, win I thought? Then they went and revoked the warranty. S$%&! I thought why bother with Serotta when they just nixed one of the most compelling reasons (presevation of warranty) to send it to them in the first place?

I made my dissatisfaction known and put the whole project on hold to see if there is a change of course. I was told my e-mail was forwarded to the top, but as we know, just because you get a return receipt does not mean that the message was read or understood!

[oldpotatoe]

Cars on dealer's lots are also dealer owned. "Factory" can carry the loan of capital for dealers to buy the cars, but ultimately the cars (and the financial liability) belong to the dealer. Sometimes the factory provides "incentives" to dealers and/or customers to move units so they can keep production going. A slippery slope and part of the reason US car companies hit financial ruin and started over.

Bike shops, ski shops, etc. work on net payment terms or borrow capital (from a few hundred grand to a million or more) to buy inventory and pay interest on the borrowed money. Deep discount end-of-season sales are a last ditch effort to pay off loans so new loans can be secured to buy next year's inventory. ...and so it goes until a shop owner consistently shows dwindling profitability and can't convince a lender they are a good risk for an inventory loan. At that point profits from the inventory on hand must cover the monthly nut or the lights go out.

I get all that but aren't some 'dealers', auto dealers factory owned?

So they are just an arm of the factory..like some bike shops are 'factory' stores, once step up from concept store but actually owned by say, trek.

If a shop can't survive w/o going deeper in debt, with a consistent economy, they they are doing something wrong, IMHO.

[toytech]

Auto Dealerships are franchises owned by groups or individuals not the manufacturer.

[oldpotatoe]

Auto Dealerships are franchises owned by groups or individuals not the manufacturer.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20110921/RETAIL07/110929967#axzz2dNAKWjOU

[1centaur]

As that story notes, franchisees said the company-owned store violated their franchise agreement. And in an interesting echo of the Serotta warranty liability discussion, the buyer is buying the operation but not the expensive real estate.

[sitzmark]

I get all that but aren't some 'dealers', auto dealers factory owned?

So they are just an arm of the factory..like some bike shops are 'factory' stores, once step up from concept store but actually owned by say, trek.

If a shop can't survive w/o going deeper in debt, with a consistent economy, they they are doing something wrong, IMHO.

Can only speak for sure about GM, as my father was a GM exec - no all independent dealers. I worked summer jobs in assembly plants and dealerships in my youth and all operated basically the same. At one time the factory told (licensed) dealers what they could carry - i.e. only GM. In the late 80's that started to change with the emergence of mega-dealers. I recall a major pro sports figure who wanted a Cadillac dealership, but was told no because he already owned a Lincoln dealership. Those days ended long ago.

Many are. Bike shops seem to be better at surviving than ski shops, which have dramatically shrunk in numbers over the past couple of decades. Manufacturer overproduction, Internet sales, and high-volume discounters significantly changed the model for success.

[djg]

Plain and simple it comes down to whether this was an asset purchase or a stock purchase. If Bradway and DCG purchased the 'assets', they are free to do so without taking along any liabilities associated with the prior company. While someone might go after them (under a variety of theories), the bottom line is they can acquire the assets sans liabilities. On the other hand, if they purchased the stock (equity) of the company, the liabilities come with it. Sure, they could have negotiated a holdback or some other fund to hold a portion of the purchase price should such claims arise and fall upon the new owners.

So, this really isn't a question of consumer protection or any other 'public policy' to protect people. This is M&A 101, happens all the time. I am relatively certain Bradway purchased the 'assets' in this deal and didn't want to touch the stock/equity (and thus liabilities) with a ten foot pole (ti, carbon or otherwise!)

Doesn't make the situation any better. So thankful I declined an opportunity to invest in this deal when it came along given the train wreck it has turned into.


Might be right -- I started typing based on a hazy recollection of reading that they'd purchased a controlling share of the corporate entity, but that could be dead wrong. If it's wrong, I've no idea what they purchased -- could be relatively little beyond trademarks, a building, etc. Whether (or for how long) there's any vestigial company liable for much of anything then becomes a separate question, but I reckon folks are probably right that (a) that too would pass (and might be nearly damage proof in the meantime) and (b) it might be pretty tough to go after the new company, even if there is this or that colorable claim under the law of some relevant state.

As crappy as this makes the new entity seem (hey, we're continuing on with everything that was ever good about the prior company, except, you know, the guy who's name was on the tubes and a willingness to stand behind the name), I still think that folks oughtn't to panic about taking a hit here, because I don't believe that well made bike frames fail very often. Sure, even a well run shop is imperfect, but most of these bikes will last a long, long time, unless crashed into something in a way not generally thought to be covered in a materials & workmanship warranty. WRT crash-replacement policies, OTOH, there might be people who get stuck.

[Charles M]

Car dealers sometimes own the stock and sometimes not.

Bike shops sometimes own the stock and sometimes not...



And in either case, breaking the product protection promises of the previous owners is a pretty bad idea.

[MarleyMon]

Interesting update here http://serotta.com/warranty/

"Original owners of custom models with proof of purchase dated before May 3, 2012: Limited 10-year warranty effective on date of purchase. In addition, we are adding crash protection coverage regardless of whether a prior version of Peace of Mind protection was purchased.
Original owners of stock models with proof of purchase dated before May 3, 2012: Limited 5-year warranty effective on date of purchase. In addition, we are adding crash protection coverage regardless of whether a prior version of Peace of Mind protection was purchased."

"In order to qualify for the coverage outlined above, owners must register their framesets before Dec. 31, 2013. You can register online by filling out this form. For all the warranty fine print, click here."

[rustylion]

To me and in my opinion, it is the timing of this announcement that indicates what is really going on.

Brian Case and Bradway Financial bought Serotta from Ben in the spring of 2012. Note that the new entity continued to honor Serotta warranties despite the change in ownership. I know because until recently, I was there monitoring and managing the team that completed the warranty work. Now, 18 months later, Brian simply changes his mind? I don't think so. There is more to it than that.

Warranty work is expensive especially because there are so many Serottas still in the marketplace. But, this was a known fact in 2012 so if Brian did his due dilligence, he would have known. And, I guess he accepted the obligation because Serotta did not skip a beat in servicing customers' warranty claims. So, what was the hard decision that Brian had to make? I think what has happened is that Brian has simply lost control of the Serotta brand name in his highly touted merger with the Divine Cycling Group.

It was not all that long ago that we heard the hype of their June announcement that Brian and Dan could not wait to tell the industry: “Collectively, these companies bring together manufacturing expertise across materials and product categories and extensive aerodynamics expertise. They combine American manufacturing knowledge with significant experience operating in Taiwan and elsewhere in Asia. The three businesses’ sales forces cover all major cycling markets, and utilize the best combinations of traditional distributors, dedicated sales offices, trading partners and representatives. And they are now brought together under a board that has world class experience in acquisition and strategic integration such that they will be able to better attract investment, more rapidly grow product lines and profitability, and benefit from combined strengths while maintaining individual brand identities under their current management teams. This, as DCG Inc continues its commitment to growth through acquisition and further builds the company. Each company will maintain its current production facilities."

Really? I would guess the touted expertise, experience and investment never materialzed. I speculate that Dan is much smarter than Brian, has taken control of the Serotta brand and that Brian is stuck holding the bag in Saratoga Springs. I bet he's got no Serotta brand any longer but instead has lots of overhead in rent, building upkeep and especially payroll. All his recent hype about waking up one morning and realizing that the Serotta craftsmen were the true value at Serotta is just a coverup for what has really happened behind the scenes. Brian is trying to make applesauce out of deal full of rotten apples.

So, why add to his expense and his problems by doing free warranty work on behalf of a brand that he no longer controls and probably does not even own. I bet Brian got fleeced by a smarter deal maker but just does not want anyone to know...especially his employees and investors.

[MarleyMon]

Thanks for the insight, Bill. It sheds some light on this paragraph on the Saratoga Frameworks site:

"Separately, Saratoga Frameworks has reached an agreement with the Divine Cycling Group (DCGI), which owns the Serotta brand, to produce Serotta branded bicycles through the end of 2013. Going forward, DCGI and Saratoga Frameworks have agreed to a favorable manufacturing relationship should DCGI wish to continue to make Serotta bicycles in the Saratoga facility. DCGI is planning the future of the Serotta brand and anticipates making an announcement in this regard toward the end of 2013."
(http://saratogaframeworks.com/2013/09/10/introducing-saratoga-frameworks/)

I am still a bit confused - is Saratoga Frameworks a successor or competitor of Serotta?

[WickedWheels]

To me and in my opinion, it is the timing of this announcement that indicates what is really going on.

Brian Case and Bradway Financial bought Serotta from Ben in the spring of 2012. Note that the new entity continued to honor Serotta warranties despite the change in ownership. I know because until recently, I was there monitoring and managing the team that completed the warranty work. Now, 18 months later, Brian simply changes his mind? I don't think so. There is more to it than that.

Warranty work is expensive especially because there are so many Serottas still in the marketplace. But, this was a known fact in 2012 so if Brian did his due dilligence, he would have known. And, I guess he accepted the obligation because Serotta did not skip a beat in servicing customers' warranty claims. So, what was the hard decision that Brian had to make? I think what has happened is that Brian has simply lost control of the Serotta brand name in his highly touted merger with the Divine Cycling Group.

It was not all that long ago that we heard the hype of their June announcement that Brian and Dan could not wait to tell the industry: “Collectively, these companies bring together manufacturing expertise across materials and product categories and extensive aerodynamics expertise. They combine American manufacturing knowledge with significant experience operating in Taiwan and elsewhere in Asia. The three businesses’ sales forces cover all major cycling markets, and utilize the best combinations of traditional distributors, dedicated sales offices, trading partners and representatives. And they are now brought together under a board that has world class experience in acquisition and strategic integration such that they will be able to better attract investment, more rapidly grow product lines and profitability, and benefit from combined strengths while maintaining individual brand identities under their current management teams. This, as DCG Inc continues its commitment to growth through acquisition and further builds the company. Each company will maintain its current production facilities."

Really? I would guess the touted expertise, experience and investment never materialzed. I speculate that Dan is much smarter than Brian, has taken control of the Serotta brand and that Brian is stuck holding the bag in Saratoga Springs. I bet he's got no Serotta brand any longer but instead has lots of overhead in rent, building upkeep and especially payroll. All his recent hype about waking up one morning and realizing that the Serotta craftsmen were the true value at Serotta is just a coverup for what has really happened behind the scenes. Brian is trying to make applesauce out of deal full of rotten apples.

So, why add to his expense and his problems by doing free warranty work on behalf of a brand that he no longer controls and probably does not even own. I bet Brian got fleeced by a smarter deal maker but just does not want anyone to know...especially his employees and investors.

Interesting take. I assumed that this was a way to sell off a "promising" factory and another brand to maximize the return of the investment rather than just shutting it down, all while Serotta rolls over into overseas production. I like your take better, though.

[rustylion]

Brian Case is a master of spin. So, who knows what is going on behind all the companies he is starting and the PR he is writing.

As I wrote earlier, I am of the opinion that Dan Devine has wrested the Serotta brand away from Brian as a result of the June merger. I further bet that this was something Brian did not predict. I doubt Dan ever intended to support the operation in Saratoga Springs. Look through his recent PR on his relocation of MadFiber to Asia.

So, I guess that Brian gets caught up in Dan's snake oil hype, merges with DCGI but probably does not throw the Saratoga Springs facility into the equation. Dan walks away with what he wanted and leaves Brian as the landlord responsible for all the Saratoga Spring operation's overhead. Bet that surprised Brian.

It seems that Dan won't let Brian make "Serottas" after the end of the year (his own PR confirmed this). I just bet that to keep his real estate investment from becoming vacant (lay people off, close facility), he comes up with the idea of contract work and private label. Instead of making one of the few best brands in the world, he is going to make one of the countless "anybody's" brand. The race horse is now pulling the plowshare.

We all know the craftsmen at 41 Geyser are super talented and deserve only the best. But, the most experienced and well intentioned employees cannot make up for the ineptitude and arrogance of ownership. It could be an instructive business school case study but would be one of the sadder ones.

Thanks for the insight, Bill. It sheds some light on this paragraph on the Saratoga Frameworks site:

"Separately, Saratoga Frameworks has reached an agreement with the Divine Cycling Group (DCGI), which owns the Serotta brand, to produce Serotta branded bicycles through the end of 2013. Going forward, DCGI and Saratoga Frameworks have agreed to a favorable manufacturing relationship should DCGI wish to continue to make Serotta bicycles in the Saratoga facility. DCGI is planning the future of the Serotta brand and anticipates making an announcement in this regard toward the end of 2013."
(http://saratogaframeworks.com/2013/09/10/introducing-saratoga-frameworks/)

I am still a bit confused - is Saratoga Frameworks a successor or competitor of Serotta?

[oldpotatoe]

Brian Case is a master of spin. So, who knows what is going on behind all the companies he is starting and the PR he is writing.

As I wrote earlier, I am of the opinion that Dan Devine has wrested the Serotta brand away from Brian as a result of the June merger. I further bet that this was something Brian did not predict. I doubt Dan ever intended to support the operation in Saratoga Springs. Look through his recent PR on his relocation of MadFiber to Asia.

So, I guess that Brian gets caught up in Dan's snake oil hype, merges with DCGI but probably does not throw the Saratoga Springs facility into the equation. Dan walks away with what he wanted and leaves Brian as the landlord responsible for all the Saratoga Spring operation's overhead. Bet that surprised Brian.

It seems that Dan won't let Brian make "Serottas" after the end of the year (his own PR confirmed this). I just bet that to keep his real estate investment from becoming vacant (lay people off, close facility), he comes up with the idea of contract work and private label. Instead of making one of the few best brands in the world, he is going to make one of the countless "anybody's" brand. The race horse is now pulling the plowshare.

We all know the craftsmen at 41 Geyser are super talented and deserve only the best. But, the most experienced and well intentioned employees cannot make up for the ineptitude and arrogance of ownership. It could be an instructive business school case study but would be one of the sadder ones.

wow

Or a case study done in the history department.

[54ny77]

Doesn't that statement apply directly to what landed Serotta in its predicament in the first place, long before your arrival to do what seemed like triage?

To us spectators, it sounds more like one s$#! show following another, basically. Same train wreck, different track.

If so it's too bad, the "new" bikes sure look great and are priced a little more back to earth. Time will tell I suppose.


But, the most experienced and well intentioned employees cannot make up for the ineptitude and arrogance of ownership. It could be an instructive business school case study but would be one of the sadder ones.

[Chris]

But, the most experienced and well intentioned employees cannot make up for the ineptitude and arrogance of ownership. It could be an instructive business school case study but would be one of the sadder ones.

With all due respect, hasn't this been the theme at Serotta for a very long time? It seems that throughout the history of Serotta, there has been this promise about the new direction and inconsistency in the message. I can remember even from one catalog to another reading about how steel will never be replaced and then how Serotta has worked out a process to make aluminum really work as a race bike and then how the best application of carbon was selectively within parts of an otherwise titanium frame and then how lugged carbon (something Colnago had been doing for years) was perfected by Serotta and that's why you need a $7k frameset.

On the business side of things, it was always the new guy to come along and bail Ben out of the hole he had dug was going to be the thing to right the ship and turn the company into the world beater it was always destined to be. I understand the need to adapt to market circumstances, and I list the inconsistency in the message about the bikes actually being built as a reflection on what has seemed to be a company looking for an identity for several years. It's been like watching a very very slow car crash. Even the hyperbole about your entrance to the company and how your management expertise was going to allow Ben to get back to the designing of the frames while you turned things around seemed to be very short-lived.

You may have well been deceived and screwed by these guys along the way, but in the end, it was my understanding that you were going to be the guy who was accountable for turning the company around. There were a lot of bold predictions coming from Saratoga when you became one of the many who have taken over the helm. Since you were at the helm at the time of the merger, it would seem that in some aspect, you share a good portion of the culpability for this fiasco. I can't imagine that someone held a gun to your head and insisted that you and Ben sign along the line which is dotted. All I've read in statements from you or Ben however, (and admittedly it's early and the promise of full-disclosure is assuredly right around the corner) has been how you guys were the victims in the matter.

I'm sure though that they are all honorable men...

[fkelly]

Thanks for the link to the warranty page at Serotta, Marleymon. The page was updated today and makes an interesting read. I just registered my early 2011 Legend that I purchased at the factory. How long they will be around to honor it is another question but ...

Also interesting ... if you are a Serotta owner but not following these Forums you'd never know about this and you wouldn't register by the end of 2013 and you'd have no chance of having your warranty honored. An interesting quote from the warranty page:

"For more than 40 years Serotta has offered original owners a lifetime warranty on its frames and forks. This warranty covered defective workmanship and materials.

We believe this warranty policy set unrealistic expectations that a frame and fork will last forever. Lightweight, high-performance framesets that are ridden, and ridden hard, have a finite lifespan and can’t be expected to last forever.

Under multiple prior owners and managers, Serotta did not maintain consistent records of warranty registrations. This lack of record-keeping, combined with the fact that many of the 40,000 or so frames Serotta built over the years have been sold by their original owners, makes it exceptionally difficult and many times even impossible to verify the original owner of specific framesets."

[laupsi]

Thanks for the link to the warranty page at Serotta, Marleymon. The page was updated today and makes an interesting read. I just registered my early 2011 Legend that I purchased at the factory. How long they will be around to honor it is another question but ...

Also interesting ... if you are a Serotta owner but not following these Forums you'd never know about this and you wouldn't register by the end of 2013 and you'd have no chance of having your warranty honored. An interesting quote from the warranty page:

"For more than 40 years Serotta has offered original owners a lifetime warranty on its frames and forks. This warranty covered defective workmanship and materials.

We believe this warranty policy set unrealistic expectations that a frame and fork will last forever. Lightweight, high-performance framesets that are ridden, and ridden hard, have a finite lifespan and can’t be expected to last forever.

Under multiple prior owners and managers, Serotta did not maintain consistent records of warranty registrations. This lack of record-keeping, combined with the fact that many of the 40,000 or so frames Serotta built over the years have been sold by their original owners, makes it exceptionally difficult and many times even impossible to verify the original owner of specific framesets."

indeed, every reason imaginable not to cover a warranty. almost reads as though they're doing all the original owners a very big favor just to do the 10 years. this, even if there's no notification that one has to register by end of 2013. my but we're very luck indeed! :eek:

[texbike]

With all due respect, hasn't this been the theme at Serotta for a very long time? It seems that throughout the history of Serotta, there has been this promise about the new direction and inconsistency in the message.

On the business side of things, it was always the new guy to come along and bail Ben out of the hole he had dug was going to be the thing to right the ship and turn the company into the world beater it was always destined to be.

What's the old saying about the definition of insanity?

Texbike

[PQJ]

What's the old saying about the definition of insanity?

Texbike

Shimano on Italian frame?

Full Assos gear while riding Scattante?

;)

[texbike]

Shimano on Italian frame?

;)

Hey, I represent that remark!

Texbike

[1centaur]

I am struggling with the concept that Dan is brilliant for getting the Serotta brand name in what seemed to the industry and us like a massive SNAFU that completely devalued the brand name AND separated it from >80% of what made it respected.

That DCG announced all sorts of stuff about Blue and then did not close, and said Mad Fiber's going to do all sorts of stuff in Asia but "no major steps" have been taken in that direction, so DCG's big roll up is a few guys in Seattle (making for uncertainty in the informed customer base how long THAT situation lasts) and a nearly worthless brand name but that's so much to handle they can't do anything else right now...It all reeks of massive business and deal incompetence. DCG looks to single handedly have destroyed 2 and a half brands in 6 months. To the extent that they still pretend to be a roll-up, what small company would even want to let them through the door to talk deal? DCG looks like a self-destructive press release company at this point.

The Saratoga operation at least puts out a credible product. In the right hands (which might not be Brian's), it has potential value. The Serotta name? How do you cool that down from zero? I'd rather make up a brand name then use a name somewhere between tarnished and abandoned. I'd love to see a marketing firm draw up a pitch on why and how "Serotta" resonates with some desirable market segment.

My bottom line: denouement as clusterf**k. No winners now for sure, and low odds ever.

[biker72]

My bottom line: denouement as clusterf**k. No winners now for sure, and low odds ever.

+1
Sure looks like it to me too.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think you got it.

I was also really amused that they need to let the brand name "cool off." (Insert "OMFG" emoticon here.)

BBD

I am struggling with the concept that Dan is brilliant for getting the Serotta brand name in what seemed to the industry and us like a massive SNAFU that completely devalued the brand name AND separated it from >80% of what made it respected.

That DCG announced all sorts of stuff about Blue and then did not close, and said Mad Fiber's going to do all sorts of stuff in Asia but "no major steps" have been taken in that direction, so DCG's big roll up is a few guys in Seattle (making for uncertainty in the informed customer base how long THAT situation lasts) and a nearly worthless brand name but that's so much to handle they can't do anything else right now...It all reeks of massive business and deal incompetence. DCG looks to single handedly have destroyed 2 and a half brands in 6 months. To the extent that they still pretend to be a roll-up, what small company would even want to let them through the door to talk deal? DCG looks like a self-destructive press release company at this point.

The Saratoga operation at least puts out a credible product. In the right hands (which might not be Brian's), it has potential value. The Serotta name? How do you cool that down from zero? I'd rather make up a brand name then use a name somewhere between tarnished and abandoned. I'd love to see a marketing firm draw up a pitch on why and how "Serotta" resonates with some desirable market segment.

My bottom line: denouement as clusterf**k. No winners now for sure, and low odds ever.

[jpw]

the newly revised warranty terms is better than nothing, and certainly better than a smack in the mouth.

Register and move on.